1. #2921
    Herald of the Titans rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    The hobbit breeds were described in the Prologue to LotR, and while all three (Harfoot, Stoor, and Fallohide) mixed in various degrees to form the families of the hobbits we know, the lineages can still be traced through descriptions.

    Harfoots are the most common type of hobbit and make up the majority of hobbits in the Shire, with the Baggins' being a strong Harfoot family (Frodo and Bilbo had Brandybuck and Took mothers respectively so they do have strong Fallohide features in them as well). Sam is considered a Harfoot as well given that the only two descriptions of his skin tone are his brown hands.
    so why aren't you outraged at the fact peter jackson 'whitewashed' sam gamgee in his trilogy with the casting of sean astin?, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops that black people have been wronged yet again by Hollywood because of this slight, why is it that this gets a pass yet when people point out the opposite they are somehow all racist trolls with no point to make other than being racists, by your and many others dim, narrow and fucked up world view.

  2. #2922
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Camp 1: Everyone who doesn't like this is a racist! Or sexist! or ISTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!
    - These people are ironic in that they are right that racists probably would not like the inclusion of other races into a property that didn't have them before. However, most of their ideas tend to end up with concepts that mirror the racists they despise so much. Its racist to exclude people based on race, but they forget, its ALSO racist to include people based on race.
    First off, I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that people have to LIKE the show. These discussion pop up when certain people try to explain WHY they don't like the show with reasoning that is often times heavily influenced by racist ideology. By all means, hate the show based on boring looking trailers, "cheap" looking CGI and costumes, changes to character arcs and narrative, etc.

    Not everyone in this thread who dislikes this show is being racist, but there are definitely a good handful of posters who are espousing racist views (some overtly, others just as a product of subconscious bias).

    And no, being more inclusive of minorities is not in any way, shape, or form "racist". The idea of "reverse racism" is honestly the most idiotic thing that always pops up in any thread that has to do with diversity and inclusion.

  3. #2923
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    The hobbit breeds were described in the Prologue to LotR, and while all three (Harfoot, Stoor, and Fallohide) mixed in various degrees to form the families of the hobbits we know, the lineages can still be traced through descriptions.

    Harfoots are the most common type of hobbit and make up the majority of hobbits in the Shire, with the Baggins' being a strong Harfoot family (Frodo and Bilbo had Brandybuck and Took mothers respectively so they do have strong Fallohide features in them as well). Sam is considered a Harfoot as well given that the only two descriptions of his skin tone are his brown hands.
    I've actually heard this argument before (brown hands), and yes I'd absolutely consider this valid and a reason for casting someone that would closer resemble the depiction of Samwise from the books.

    I thoroughly enjoyed Sean Astin's depiction of Samwise. And I'd prefer if they cast someone with a skin tone that matches the depiction of Sam in the books, though to be honest my personal interpretation was that his hands were brown from exposure to the sun from his work as a gardener. Your explanation does shed some light if he were descended directly from Harfoots and retained that skin color, that is something I had not considered before. I wouldn't be opposed to a brown(er) skinned actor playing the role of Samwise at all.

  4. #2924
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    so why aren't you outraged at the fact peter jackson 'whitewashed' sam gamgee in his trilogy with the casting of sean astin?, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops that black people have been wronged yet again by Hollywood because of this slight, why is it that this gets a pass yet when people point out the opposite they are somehow all racist trolls with no point to make other than being racists, by your and many others dim, narrow and fucked up world view.
    How do you know he didn't find that wrong too? Admittedly, with those references, Sam does sound he should/could have been played by a black guy as a hobbit. Its possible that he was brown from tanning/being outside alot, but its also possible he was simply a darker skin tone and should have been more logically played by an actor with a darker skin tone too. He could have been played by an Indian actor too, many of them are quite dark as well.

    Of course, if Jackson's LOTR was a crapfest and the actors/script sucked, and Sean Astin played a crap Sam..... then yea, I'd say damn Jackson for casting someone for racist reasons rather than for talent.

    If you cast for racist reasons rather than talent and make a crapfest out of your show, you should be taken the task. I agree with you Rogoth!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Not everyone in this thread who dislikes this show is being racist, but there are definitely a good handful of posters who are espousing racist views (some overtly, others just as a product of subconscious bias).

    And no, being more inclusive of minorities is not in any way, shape, or form "racist". The idea of "reverse racism" is honestly the most idiotic thing that always pops up in any thread that has to do with diversity and inclusion.
    There are racists everywhere. There is no such thing as reverse racism. Its just racism. If you treat people differently, good or bad, based on their race..... that's racism.

    Whether the diehard right-leaner thinks black people are inferior and doesn't want them cast or the woke left-leaner thinks black people can't succeed on their own without a white savior "granting" them opportunity...... all sounds pretty racist to me.

    Ryan Long has a great skit on this, more people should watch it.

  5. #2925
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    so why aren't you outraged at the fact peter jackson 'whitewashed' sam gamgee in his trilogy with the casting of sean astin?, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops that black people have been wronged yet again by Hollywood because of this slight, why is it that this gets a pass yet when people point out the opposite they are somehow all racist trolls with no point to make other than being racists, by your and many others dim, narrow and fucked up world view.
    I dunno, maybe because Sean Astin was cast for his talent instead of based on his skin color?

  6. #2926
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I dunno, maybe because Sean Astin was cast for his talent instead of based on his skin color?
    We don't know that! Did he do a bad job as Sam? Was he a disappointment in the general LOTR fan community?

  7. #2927
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    We don't know that! Did he do a bad job as Sam? Was he a disappointment in the general LOTR fan community?
    I dunno, I DUNNO! OH NO I OUTED MYSELF AS A CLOSET RACIST!

  8. #2928
    Camp 1 is coming for you. TO THE GULAG WITH YOU!

  9. #2929
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Whether the diehard right-leaner thinks black people are inferior and doesn't want them cast or the woke left-leaner thinks black people can't succeed on their own without a white savior "granting" them opportunity...... all sounds pretty racist to me.
    See, those extremes are easy to spot. It's the gray zones in between that always makes me wonder what people actually consider to be racist.

    Like casting calls for a Black person for the role of MLK - It excludes people based on skin tone so would that be discrimination?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-18 at 11:09 PM.

  10. #2930
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    so why aren't you outraged at the fact peter jackson 'whitewashed' sam gamgee in his trilogy with the casting of sean astin?, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops that black people have been wronged yet again by Hollywood because of this slight, why is it that this gets a pass yet when people point out the opposite they are somehow all racist trolls with no point to make other than being racists, by your and many others dim, narrow and fucked up world view.
    Is there any evidence of it being brought up to Peter Jackson that Sam’s skin tone should be browner than Frodo’s and him saying “fuck that, Tolkien heroes should all be white. Hire an American, please”? If so then yeah, that would probably be problematic.

    Having grown up in the 80’s and 90’s the default idea of fantasy being almost exclusively white was something I grew up with as well. It’s not that there was anything inherently wrong with that, the issue is with people who can’t seem to break away from that idea of thinking and are dead set in pushing for some sort of white purity in terms of fantasy race skin colors.

    I doubt any of this will actually sink in since you seem to think that evolving views on fantasy adaptations and character interpretations is “narrow and fucked up”.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    There are racists everywhere. There is no such thing as reverse racism. Its just racism. If you treat people differently, good or bad, based on their race..... that's racism.

    Whether the diehard right-leaner thinks black people are inferior and doesn't want them cast or the woke left-leaner thinks black people can't succeed on their own without a white savior "granting" them opportunity...... all sounds pretty racist to me.
    Only like one or two posters in this thread have really come close to any sort of superiority/inferiority mentality having to do with skin color. The more common aspects (which are still racist) are segregation and forced/denied identity.

    I’ll refrain from naming names but examples like certain posters refusing time and time again to acknowledge British born and/or mixed heritage actors as anything other than “black Africans” is definitely racist. The other example that comes up often boils down to “they (minorities) don’t belong over here in the most recognizable parts of the fantasy where 99% of the narratives are centered. Someone should instead make a separate-but-‘equal’ home for them elsewhere so that they don’t have to mix with our other characters”.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-08-19 at 12:10 AM.

  11. #2931
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    so why aren't you outraged at the fact peter jackson 'whitewashed' sam gamgee in his trilogy with the casting of sean astin?, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops that black people have been wronged yet again by Hollywood because of this slight, why is it that this gets a pass yet when people point out the opposite they are somehow all racist trolls with no point to make other than being racists, by your and many others dim, narrow and fucked up world view.
    So Ill bite the bullet and say I don't care if they turned Sam white or not, would you be willing to say the same and all of the Various minority casting in ROP is totally fine given that Peter Jackson already set the precedent and the books them self already had people of none white skin tones as Per Sam?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #2932
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    See, those extremes are easy to spot. It's the gray zones in between that always makes me wonder what people actually consider to be racist.

    Like casting calls for a Black person for the role of MLK - It excludes people based on skin tone so would that be discrimination?
    That's fair, the gray area is always harder to really tell. You generally have to make a judgement call on that and try to err on the side of understanding, unless its obvious the person/company doesn't deserve it.

    If its a person making a movie about MLK and they are trying to get someone who authentically looked like him? Seems fine. For historical figures, its usually best to stick to as close as possible of a look. For fiction characters, shoot for what people know the character as unless you have a good reason not to.

    Perfect example from something I care about. The Aiel in Wheel of Time. Having a HUGE group of people that are all very tall gingers in the desert is a tall order to fill. You can certainly get away with many of them not being overly tall, or not all having reddish hair (the books do list a number of them having different colored hair, red was simply more prominent). However they should try to establish a look amongst them that makes you think "Ah the Aiel". Or for example, the Sea Folk in that story are all very dark skinned. Does it matter if a few of them having lighter complexions than super duper black? Nah, you there can be variety in what you cast, as long as a theme works for them, if a theme was present in the original work. Should a random black person be in the Aiel? Or a random white person be in the Sea Folk? Nope, that shows you did a bad job casting.

    One change they made in that show that I frankly enjoyed (though I've heard mixed reports) is changing Padan Fain to a black guy. His character had no reason not to be any actor of any color (though it would have been odd to make him a woman). The actor they picked did what I think is a great job. I've read people who disagreed with that, but I really liked him as Padan Fain. The ending of the season and what they made him do/act like then wasn't good, but at the start I really liked him. He is an example of where you can make changes without it mattering.

    But back to the subject of gray area. Sometimes it is hard to know, but my general rule is "if whomever is making the show/movie/etc seems like they have respect for what it is they are making, and are trying to make the best version of that thing, I'm cool with changes"...... the shows like LOTR or WOT or many of the others that have come out are made by people that could care less about the original. They want to tell their own story and they simply use a backdrop of "that thing you like" to get people to watch it.

    A good storyteller can tell a story that fits in a universe to expand upon that universe.

    A bad storyteller wants to tell you their story, and if forced will cover it in the paint of a universe they don't care about to try to trick you into listening.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Only like one or two posters in this thread have really come close to any sort of superiority/inferiority mentality having to do with skin color. The more common aspects (which are still racist) are segregation and forced/denied identity.

    I’ll refrain from naming names but examples like certain posters refusing time and time again to acknowledge British born and/or mixed heritage actors as anything other than “black Africans” is definitely racist. The other example that comes up often boils down to “they (minorities) don’t belong over here in the most recognizable parts of the fantasy where 99% of the narratives are centered. Someone should instead make a separate-but-‘equal’ home for them elsewhere so that they don’t have to mix with our other characters”.
    I can't say I've read nearly as much of this thread, so I'll take your word on that. Those types of comments do in fact sounds quite racist. I would agree with you on that. I just stop in every few days to see if the arguments have changed (shocker they haven't)

    That type of behavior is fine to call out, but when you, or people like you paint anyone that doesn't like the changes being made to a show, for reasons they showrunners have distinctly pointed out are an attempt to force diversity into a product they felt didn't have it, as racist..... all you do is make yourselves look as rediculous as the types of people you just pointed out. Boy who cried wolf and all that.
    Last edited by Gumble; 2022-08-19 at 12:27 AM.

  13. #2933
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    But back to the subject of gray area. Sometimes it is hard to know, but my general rule is "if whomever is making the show/movie/etc seems like they have respect for what it is they are making, and are trying to make the best version of that thing, I'm cool with changes"...... the shows like LOTR or WOT or many of the others that have come out are made by people that could care less about the original. They want to tell their own story and they simply use a backdrop of "that thing you like" to get people to watch it.

    A good storyteller can tell a story that fits in a universe to expand upon that universe.

    A bad storyteller wants to tell you their story, and if forced will cover it in the paint of a universe they don't care about to try to trick you into listening.
    Think what you are looking for here is passion, one of the things you could feel from Peter Jackson, like he shopped the movies, created his own special effects companies for it. He genuinely loved and had passion for the books/lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  14. #2934
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Think what you are looking for here is passion, one of the things you could feel from Peter Jackson, like he shopped the movies, created his own special effects companies for it. He genuinely loved and had passion for the books/lore.
    That's fair. It's just too bad that so many of these shows now are devoid of any passion for anything related to the actual story. They have passion, but its for self-aggrandizment while they explain to you how good of a person they are.

    It wears a bit thin.

  15. #2935
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Think what you are looking for here is passion, one of the things you could feel from Peter Jackson, like he shopped the movies, created his own special effects companies for it. He genuinely loved and had passion for the books/lore.
    That doesn't exactly explain what happened to the Hobbit movies though.

  16. #2936
    Herald of the Titans rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    So Ill bite the bullet and say I don't care if they turned Sam white or not, would you be willing to say the same and all of the Various minority casting in ROP is totally fine given that Peter Jackson already set the precedent and the books them self already had people of none white skin tones as Per Sam?
    i already have my response to this asinine question a hundred pages back or so, but for your benefit i'll give it again:

    i have no issues with diverse casting, no issue with the best person for the job being given a role regardless of what they look like.

    my issue with this project is that when it was announced, it was stated by the showrunners that it was going to be a 'faithful adaptation of the second age epic showcasing the forging of the rings of power and the events that led up to the war of the ring' ERGO the expectations set from the outset was that they were going to be writing and showcasing a story in the same vein as what peter jackson did for the LOTR trilogy of films.

    fast forward a couple of years and out of nowhere they are inserting made up races that didn't exist in the original lore, they are showing fabricated characters that simply wouldn't have existed in any of the material they are referencing, meaning that the expectations they had set were not only false, they were flat out lying to sell hype in this project, as soon as it became apparent that this project is nothing more than glorified fan fiction masquerading as an 'adaptation' which is now no longer classified as such, and now being described by the self same show runners as 'greatly influenced by the works of Tolkein', is it wrong to call in to question the casting and writing direction from what's been shown considering the initial expectations that were set?, i don't think so, but then again demanding they stick to the original expectations that were set makes me racist in your eyes, so who the hell knows anymore.

    not once has anybody bothered to address this, not once has anybody bothered to take a step back and say, 'well it's logical that you thought that way based on how they framed it initially', not once has anybody bothered to even listen to the argument presented as to why these SPECIFIC diversity hires, who from the outside looking in are there purely just to tick the quota boxes on their mandated policy sheet, because none of the names they have hired have any real back catalogue of work to reference, meaning that the hiring of the entire cast was done with very specific things in mind, but nobody seems to want to talk about that, everyone, you and a few others moreso, are hyper fixated on making sure everyone gets labelled in some way so that the 'us vs them' fucked up American mentality of doing things remains top of the priority list.

    as a child when i first read these books over 25 years ago now, in my mind all the characters looked as they were described, when i saw the PJ trilogy as a young teen, for the most part all the characters on screen looked how i mentally viewed them in my imagination as a child when i read the books, and then later when i read them again as part of my schooling, the on screen depictions were how i viewed all the characters of that story, after having travelled and consuming thousands of different types of media from around the world, i am able to see characters in different forms when reading a story, but that doesn't change the fact that certain things are written a certain way, and this project specifically is rewriting that because it doesn't fit with the 'modern day' political/gender/race messaging that this show is almost guaranteed at this point to push considering how the people behind it have behaved since it's announcement, but again i must be racist for not agreeing with these people right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That doesn't exactly explain what happened to the Hobbit movies though.
    they way i interpret that, from the 'behind the scenes' interviews done regarding the LOTR trilogy, they were basically asking for a miracle from the studio heads at the time, and while he was given a majority of what he asked for, he was under extreme scrutiny, and the outcome of that work which led to one of the most decorated movie series of all time, one of the best movie series of all time, and which is now regarded as some of the best cinematography to ever be made, once the studio heads saw that success they got greedy and wanted it replicating so probably forced the agenda a bit with the hobbit films trying to recapture that lightning which was always doomed to fail from the outset with that mentality.

  17. #2937
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    they way i interpret that, from the 'behind the scenes' interviews done regarding the LOTR trilogy, they were basically asking for a miracle from the studio heads at the time, and while he was given a majority of what he asked for, he was under extreme scrutiny, and the outcome of that work which led to one of the most decorated movie series of all time, one of the best movie series of all time, and which is now regarded as some of the best cinematography to ever be made, once the studio heads saw that success they got greedy and wanted it replicating so probably forced the agenda a bit with the hobbit films trying to recapture that lightning which was always doomed to fail from the outset with that mentality.
    I agree.

    I mean, it's not that the movies were poorly produced, more that they were poorly executed.

    The Maple cut remains my go to example of how the movies can be edited in a way that makes the story much more cohesive by cutting out a majority of the filler and just tweaking scenes to make things more to the point. The pacing is a lot less drawn out, and you get a better sense of what it feels like to read the novels again. It's by all means not perfect, but it's a very great way to see what the Hobbit movies could have been if it just stuck to telling the story of the Hobbit.

    And recently, I've been seeing similar fan edits make wonders out of shows like Obi-wan. Just from cutting some unnecessary scenes and swapping other scenes around completely changed the whole feeling of an episode. It can't be understated how important pacing is to the story.

  18. #2938
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    not once has anybody bothered to address this, not once has anybody bothered to take a step back and say, 'well it's logical that you thought that way based on how they framed it initially', not once has anybody bothered to even listen to the argument presented as to why these SPECIFIC diversity hires, who from the outside looking in are there purely just to tick the quota boxes on their mandated policy sheet, because none of the names they have hired have any real back catalogue of work to reference, meaning that the hiring of the entire cast was done with very specific things in mind, but nobody seems to want to talk about that, everyone, you and a few others moreso, are hyper fixated on making sure everyone gets labelled in some way so that the 'us vs them' fucked up American mentality of doing things remains top of the priority list.
    Here I’ll address it directly, saying your gonna be hyper faithful and then pulling the rug out and adding abunch of new characters story lines and saying it’s just inspired by down the line is a shitty thing to do as is just wanting to fill quotas and hiring actors you expect nothing out of to do so.

    That being said though, if they were super faithful to the second age added no new characters no new story’s lines did every thing as it was suppose to be, but still changed the tones of some of the actors as Jackson did even went as far as to get big names and ended up with the same number of non white actors in the end, would you be ok with that?
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-08-19 at 01:17 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #2939
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That doesn't exactly explain what happened to the Hobbit movies though.
    Think he lacked/lost the passion during it/before it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  20. #2940
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Think he lacked/lost the passion during it/before it.
    I think it's more an issue that there was one book made into 3 movies. I'd be surprised if it played out somehow like the studio saying: "we're gonna make this trilogy of the Hobbit, with or without you." And then he signed on because he wanted to try and make the best of it. But just physically couldn't.

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