Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

so why aren't you outraged at the fact peter jackson 'whitewashed' sam gamgee in his trilogy with the casting of sean astin?, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops that black people have been wronged yet again by Hollywood because of this slight, why is it that this gets a pass yet when people point out the opposite they are somehow all racist trolls with no point to make other than being racists, by your and many others dim, narrow and fucked up world view.

So Ill bite the bullet and say I don't care if they turned Sam white or not, would you be willing to say the same and all of the Various minority casting in ROP is totally fine given that Peter Jackson already set the precedent and the books them self already had people of none white skin tones as Per Sam?

[Gumble]

See, those extremes are easy to spot. It's the gray zones in between that always makes me wonder what people actually consider to be racist.

Like casting calls for a Black person for the role of MLK - It excludes people based on skin tone so would that be discrimination?

That's fair, the gray area is always harder to really tell. You generally have to make a judgement call on that and try to err on the side of understanding, unless its obvious the person/company doesn't deserve it.

If its a person making a movie about MLK and they are trying to get someone who authentically looked like him? Seems fine. For historical figures, its usually best to stick to as close as possible of a look. For fiction characters, shoot for what people know the character as unless you have a good reason not to.

Perfect example from something I care about. The Aiel in Wheel of Time. Having a HUGE group of people that are all very tall gingers in the desert is a tall order to fill. You can certainly get away with many of them not being overly tall, or not all having reddish hair (the books do list a number of them having different colored hair, red was simply more prominent). However they should try to establish a look amongst them that makes you think "Ah the Aiel". Or for example, the Sea Folk in that story are all very dark skinned. Does it matter if a few of them having lighter complexions than super duper black? Nah, you there can be variety in what you cast, as long as a theme works for them, if a theme was present in the original work. Should a random black person be in the Aiel? Or a random white person be in the Sea Folk? Nope, that shows you did a bad job casting.

One change they made in that show that I frankly enjoyed (though I've heard mixed reports) is changing Padan Fain to a black guy. His character had no reason not to be any actor of any color (though it would have been odd to make him a woman). The actor they picked did what I think is a great job. I've read people who disagreed with that, but I really liked him as Padan Fain. The ending of the season and what they made him do/act like then wasn't good, but at the start I really liked him. He is an example of where you can make changes without it mattering.

But back to the subject of gray area. Sometimes it is hard to know, but my general rule is "if whomever is making the show/movie/etc seems like they have respect for what it is they are making, and are trying to make the best version of that thing, I'm cool with changes"...... the shows like LOTR or WOT or many of the others that have come out are made by people that could care less about the original. They want to tell their own story and they simply use a backdrop of "that thing you like" to get people to watch it.

A good storyteller can tell a story that fits in a universe to expand upon that universe.

A bad storyteller wants to tell you their story, and if forced will cover it in the paint of a universe they don't care about to try to trick you into listening.

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Only like one or two posters in this thread have really come close to any sort of superiority/inferiority mentality having to do with skin color. The more common aspects (which are still racist) are segregation and forced/denied identity.

I’ll refrain from naming names but examples like certain posters refusing time and time again to acknowledge British born and/or mixed heritage actors as anything other than “black Africans” is definitely racist. The other example that comes up often boils down to “they (minorities) don’t belong over here in the most recognizable parts of the fantasy where 99% of the narratives are centered. Someone should instead make a separate-but-‘equal’ home for them elsewhere so that they don’t have to mix with our other characters”.

I can't say I've read nearly as much of this thread, so I'll take your word on that. Those types of comments do in fact sounds quite racist. I would agree with you on that. I just stop in every few days to see if the arguments have changed (shocker they haven't)

That type of behavior is fine to call out, but when you, or people like you paint anyone that doesn't like the changes being made to a show, for reasons they showrunners have distinctly pointed out are an attempt to force diversity into a product they felt didn't have it, as racist..... all you do is make yourselves look as rediculous as the types of people you just pointed out. Boy who cried wolf and all that.

[bledgor]

But back to the subject of gray area. Sometimes it is hard to know, but my general rule is "if whomever is making the show/movie/etc seems like they have respect for what it is they are making, and are trying to make the best version of that thing, I'm cool with changes"...... the shows like LOTR or WOT or many of the others that have come out are made by people that could care less about the original. They want to tell their own story and they simply use a backdrop of "that thing you like" to get people to watch it.

A good storyteller can tell a story that fits in a universe to expand upon that universe.

A bad storyteller wants to tell you their story, and if forced will cover it in the paint of a universe they don't care about to try to trick you into listening.

Think what you are looking for here is passion, one of the things you could feel from Peter Jackson, like he shopped the movies, created his own special effects companies for it. He genuinely loved and had passion for the books/lore.

[Gumble]

Think what you are looking for here is passion, one of the things you could feel from Peter Jackson, like he shopped the movies, created his own special effects companies for it. He genuinely loved and had passion for the books/lore.

That's fair. It's just too bad that so many of these shows now are devoid of any passion for anything related to the actual story. They have passion, but its for self-aggrandizment while they explain to you how good of a person they are.

It wears a bit thin.

[Triceron]

Think what you are looking for here is passion, one of the things you could feel from Peter Jackson, like he shopped the movies, created his own special effects companies for it. He genuinely loved and had passion for the books/lore.

That doesn't exactly explain what happened to the Hobbit movies though.

[rogoth]

So Ill bite the bullet and say I don't care if they turned Sam white or not, would you be willing to say the same and all of the Various minority casting in ROP is totally fine given that Peter Jackson already set the precedent and the books them self already had people of none white skin tones as Per Sam?

i already have my response to this asinine question a hundred pages back or so, but for your benefit i'll give it again:

i have no issues with diverse casting, no issue with the best person for the job being given a role regardless of what they look like.

my issue with this project is that when it was announced, it was stated by the showrunners that it was going to be a 'faithful adaptation of the second age epic showcasing the forging of the rings of power and the events that led up to the war of the ring' ERGO the expectations set from the outset was that they were going to be writing and showcasing a story in the same vein as what peter jackson did for the LOTR trilogy of films.

fast forward a couple of years and out of nowhere they are inserting made up races that didn't exist in the original lore, they are showing fabricated characters that simply wouldn't have existed in any of the material they are referencing, meaning that the expectations they had set were not only false, they were flat out lying to sell hype in this project, as soon as it became apparent that this project is nothing more than glorified fan fiction masquerading as an 'adaptation' which is now no longer classified as such, and now being described by the self same show runners as 'greatly influenced by the works of Tolkein', is it wrong to call in to question the casting and writing direction from what's been shown considering the initial expectations that were set?, i don't think so, but then again demanding they stick to the original expectations that were set makes me racist in your eyes, so who the hell knows anymore.

not once has anybody bothered to address this, not once has anybody bothered to take a step back and say, 'well it's logical that you thought that way based on how they framed it initially', not once has anybody bothered to even listen to the argument presented as to why these SPECIFIC diversity hires, who from the outside looking in are there purely just to tick the quota boxes on their mandated policy sheet, because none of the names they have hired have any real back catalogue of work to reference, meaning that the hiring of the entire cast was done with very specific things in mind, but nobody seems to want to talk about that, everyone, you and a few others moreso, are hyper fixated on making sure everyone gets labelled in some way so that the 'us vs them' fucked up American mentality of doing things remains top of the priority list.

as a child when i first read these books over 25 years ago now, in my mind all the characters looked as they were described, when i saw the PJ trilogy as a young teen, for the most part all the characters on screen looked how i mentally viewed them in my imagination as a child when i read the books, and then later when i read them again as part of my schooling, the on screen depictions were how i viewed all the characters of that story, after having travelled and consuming thousands of different types of media from around the world, i am able to see characters in different forms when reading a story, but that doesn't change the fact that certain things are written a certain way, and this project specifically is rewriting that because it doesn't fit with the 'modern day' political/gender/race messaging that this show is almost guaranteed at this point to push considering how the people behind it have behaved since it's announcement, but again i must be racist for not agreeing with these people right?

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That doesn't exactly explain what happened to the Hobbit movies though.

they way i interpret that, from the 'behind the scenes' interviews done regarding the LOTR trilogy, they were basically asking for a miracle from the studio heads at the time, and while he was given a majority of what he asked for, he was under extreme scrutiny, and the outcome of that work which led to one of the most decorated movie series of all time, one of the best movie series of all time, and which is now regarded as some of the best cinematography to ever be made, once the studio heads saw that success they got greedy and wanted it replicating so probably forced the agenda a bit with the hobbit films trying to recapture that lightning which was always doomed to fail from the outset with that mentality.

[Triceron]

they way i interpret that, from the 'behind the scenes' interviews done regarding the LOTR trilogy, they were basically asking for a miracle from the studio heads at the time, and while he was given a majority of what he asked for, he was under extreme scrutiny, and the outcome of that work which led to one of the most decorated movie series of all time, one of the best movie series of all time, and which is now regarded as some of the best cinematography to ever be made, once the studio heads saw that success they got greedy and wanted it replicating so probably forced the agenda a bit with the hobbit films trying to recapture that lightning which was always doomed to fail from the outset with that mentality.

I agree.

I mean, it's not that the movies were poorly produced, more that they were poorly executed.

The Maple cut remains my go to example of how the movies can be edited in a way that makes the story much more cohesive by cutting out a majority of the filler and just tweaking scenes to make things more to the point. The pacing is a lot less drawn out, and you get a better sense of what it feels like to read the novels again. It's by all means not perfect, but it's a very great way to see what the Hobbit movies could have been if it just stuck to telling the story of the Hobbit.

And recently, I've been seeing similar fan edits make wonders out of shows like Obi-wan. Just from cutting some unnecessary scenes and swapping other scenes around completely changed the whole feeling of an episode. It can't be understated how important pacing is to the story.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

not once has anybody bothered to address this, not once has anybody bothered to take a step back and say, 'well it's logical that you thought that way based on how they framed it initially', not once has anybody bothered to even listen to the argument presented as to why these SPECIFIC diversity hires, who from the outside looking in are there purely just to tick the quota boxes on their mandated policy sheet, because none of the names they have hired have any real back catalogue of work to reference, meaning that the hiring of the entire cast was done with very specific things in mind, but nobody seems to want to talk about that, everyone, you and a few others moreso, are hyper fixated on making sure everyone gets labelled in some way so that the 'us vs them' fucked up American mentality of doing things remains top of the priority list.

Here I’ll address it directly, saying your gonna be hyper faithful and then pulling the rug out and adding abunch of new characters story lines and saying it’s just inspired by down the line is a shitty thing to do as is just wanting to fill quotas and hiring actors you expect nothing out of to do so.

That being said though, if they were super faithful to the second age added no new characters no new story’s lines did every thing as it was suppose to be, but still changed the tones of some of the actors as Jackson did even went as far as to get big names and ended up with the same number of non white actors in the end, would you be ok with that?

[bledgor]

That doesn't exactly explain what happened to the Hobbit movies though.

Think he lacked/lost the passion during it/before it.

[eschatological]

Think he lacked/lost the passion during it/before it.

I think it's more an issue that there was one book made into 3 movies. I'd be surprised if it played out somehow like the studio saying: "we're gonna make this trilogy of the Hobbit, with or without you." And then he signed on because he wanted to try and make the best of it. But just physically couldn't.

[bledgor]

I think it's more an issue that there was one book made into 3 movies. I'd be surprised if it played out somehow like the studio saying: "we're gonna make this trilogy of the Hobbit, with or without you." And then he signed on because he wanted to try and make the best of it. But just physically couldn't.

That is part of what I think took his passion, he was no longer in control it was the studio but he still cared enough to give it a shot.

[Gumble]

That being said though, if they were super faithful to the second age added no new characters no new story’s lines did every thing as it was suppose to be, but still changed the tones of some of the actors as Jackson did even went as far as to get big names and ended up with the same number of non white actors in the end, would you be ok with that?

That sounds fine.


Could they do that to WOT too please?

[Triceron]

That sounds fine.


Could they do that to WOT too please?

At this point, I just wish they would go full out and make an animated series.

Not sure if you've seen the animated segments they have for Wheel of Time history (also produced by Amazon as a history spotlight for the show), they're done pretty damned well. It's like an animated Graphic Novel with narration on top.

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Found it:

[bledgor]

At this point, I just wish they would go full out and make an animated series.

Not sure if you've seen the animated segments they have for Wheel of Time history (also produced by Amazon as a history spotlight for the show), they're done pretty damned well. It's like an animated Graphic Novel with narration on top.

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Found it:

Animated could have been done so much better, would have loved to watch it.

[Adamas102]

I know this doesn't have to do with the Amazon show, but it's tangentially related (especially given the news a page or two back of another entertainment group purchasing the rights to Tolkien's works). Below is a diorama of the Pelennor Fields (released today) that comprises the art for 18 cards that will appear in a soon to be released M:tG set based on Middle-earth. At the bottom there are some of the members of the Fellowship (including someone who is more than likely Aragorn, wielding a more literal version of the "Flame" of the West).

If these things sorts of things are going to bother you that much, then you're going to have a tough time with a lot of modern Western fantasy adaptations and interpretations. As has been noted so many times in the thread, no one is going back and erasing the books to create a new canon. They will always be there as the direct words of the author, while adaptations will always be up to the artist's imagination (and no, not being hamstrung by every little detail doesn't mean you hate the lore). We don't NEED a black Aragorn, but at the same time we also don't NEED dozens of carbon copies of a Viggo Mortensen looking Aragorn.

[rogoth]

Here I’ll address it directly, saying your gonna be hyper faithful and then pulling the rug out and adding abunch of new characters story lines and saying it’s just inspired by down the line is a shitty thing to do as is just wanting to fill quotas and hiring actors you expect nothing out of to do so.

That being said though, if they were super faithful to the second age added no new characters no new story’s lines did every thing as it was suppose to be, but still changed the tones of some of the actors as Jackson did even went as far as to get big names and ended up with the same number of non white actors in the end, would you be ok with that?

if they had said from the outset that they were making a show using the foundation of Sauron and the forging of the rings of power and then adding to it as needed in order to fill out the material, i doubt many but the most hardcore fans would care, but they never did, they doubled down on the whole 'faithful adaptation' bullshit until extremely recently when the backlash against EVERYTHING they put out to try and spin it in a less negative light has failed and now they are actually admitting that it's not even remotely close to an adaptation, but an original story set in that framework with mostly original writing and only being 'inspired by' at best, and that's where the majority of the backlash and hate is coming from, it's that they set the initial expectations in such a way that revealing their storyline and cast years later to be the antithesis of that, that's why me and many like me are complaining, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'hur dur black actor is bad' and everything to do with the fact that based on ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION it appears that this entire cast was chosen to push forward a message or agenda that the people writing and producing this project want to see pushed and nothing whatsoever to do with the actual material they were supposed to be adapting to begin with.

[Tentim]

I know this doesn't have to do with the Amazon show, but it's tangentially related (especially given the news a page or two back of another entertainment group purchasing the rights to Tolkien's works). Below is a diorama of the Pelennor Fields (released today) that comprises the art for 18 cards that will appear in a soon to be released M:tG set based on Middle-earth. At the bottom there are some of the members of the Fellowship (including someone who is more than likely Aragorn, wielding a more literal version of the "Flame" of the West).

If these things sorts of things are going to bother you that much, then you're going to have a tough time with a lot of modern Western fantasy adaptations and interpretations. As has been noted so many times in the thread, no one is going back and erasing the books to create a new canon. They will always be there as the direct words of the author, while adaptations will always be up to the artist's imagination (and no, not being hamstrung by every little detail doesn't mean you hate the lore). We don't NEED a black Aragorn, but at the same time we also don't NEED dozens of carbon copies of a Viggo Mortensen looking Aragorn.

I mean the solution so far has been to simply abandon modern works. The audience isnt going to adjust to eating garbage. They are just going to turn to audio books or better series.

The lack of competition is part of the reason 40k has skyrocketed in popularity. I'm struggling to think of modern literary works that succeeded in fantasy. I can only really think of Harry Potter and Malazon tales of the fallen that have really taken off.

Destroying classics in the vain hope that you can springboard a new work off them rarely works.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

if they had said from the outset that they were making a show using the foundation of Sauron and the forging of the rings of power and then adding to it as needed in order to fill out the material, i doubt many but the most hardcore fans would care, but they never did, they doubled down on the whole 'faithful adaptation' bullshit until extremely recently when the backlash against EVERYTHING they put out to try and spin it in a less negative light has failed and now they are actually admitting that it's not even remotely close to an adaptation, but an original story set in that framework with mostly original writing and only being 'inspired by' at best, and that's where the majority of the backlash and hate is coming from, it's that they set the initial expectations in such a way that revealing their storyline and cast years later to be the antithesis of that, that's why me and many like me are complaining, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'hur dur black actor is bad' and everything to do with the fact that based on ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION it appears that this entire cast was chosen to push forward a message or agenda that the people writing and producing this project want to see pushed and nothing whatsoever to do with the actual material they were supposed to be adapting to begin with.

So just to be clear as your post is a bit ramblely, You would be 100% fine with them race swapping existing characters from Tolkins work if they had got big actors and were other wise as faithful as possible ya?

[Adamas102]

I mean the solution so far has been to simply abandon modern works. The audience isnt going to adjust to eating garbage. They are just going to turn to audio books or better series.

The lack of competition is part of the reason 40k has skyrocketed in popularity. I'm struggling to think of modern literary works that succeeded in fantasy. I can only really think of Harry Potter and Malazon tales of the fallen that have really taken off.

Destroying classics in the vain hope that you can springboard a new work off them rarely works.

"Lack of competition" in what sense? In terms of just books? The Black Library churns out books like they're just letting an algorithm write them at this point, and I don't think any ever get to the point of actually being best sellers (probably because they release like 3 books a week). There are plenty of fantasy books written each year that do well without being backed by a decades old miniature gaming franchise.

If we're just talking about general fantasy entertainment then I literally just referenced a company that dwarfs Games Workshop in that regard. Wizards of the Coast has been growing their main properties (MTG and D&D) tremendously, and over the past decade or so have taken a lot of steps to make their settings more inclusive while also distancing themselves from more problematic depictions from earlier years. Having a TCG card depicting a black Aragorn isn't going to hurt them in the least bit, nor is it "destroying classics".

[Triceron]

"Lack of competition" in what sense? In terms of just books? The Black Library churns out books like they're just letting an algorithm write them at this point, and I don't think any ever get to the point of actually being best sellers (probably because they release like 3 books a week). There are plenty of fantasy books written each year that do well without being backed by a decades old miniature gaming franchise.

If we're just talking about general fantasy entertainment then I literally just referenced a company that dwarfs Games Workshop in that regard. Wizards of the Coast has been growing their main properties (MTG and D&D) tremendously, and over the past decade or so have taken a lot of steps to make their settings more inclusive while also distancing themselves from more problematic depictions from earlier years. Having a TCG card depicting a black Aragorn isn't going to hurt them in the least bit, nor is it "destroying classics".

Did they promote that artwork with press releases saying they would be as faithful as possible to the source material then they release this piece of artwork?

Creative liberties are fine if the artists or creators are transparent about their intentions. Like, Shadow of Mordor videogame went as far as having Shelob be able to present herself as a beautiful human or elf woman. No one really gets upset st that because the game makers were clear they just wanted to make a cool game in the Middle Earth universe and tell a cool story. They didn't go out of their way to promote the game as being super faithful to the source material like some upcoming TV show did.

The controversy surrounding RoP is really a product of Amazon's marketting, and its hard to tell whether they intended to be faithful and continue to think they are, merely understated how much the show would deviate from the books, or intentionally want to stir a hornets nest for the sake of building buzz.