1. #2941
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    I think it's more an issue that there was one book made into 3 movies. I'd be surprised if it played out somehow like the studio saying: "we're gonna make this trilogy of the Hobbit, with or without you." And then he signed on because he wanted to try and make the best of it. But just physically couldn't.
    That is part of what I think took his passion, he was no longer in control it was the studio but he still cared enough to give it a shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  2. #2942
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    That being said though, if they were super faithful to the second age added no new characters no new story’s lines did every thing as it was suppose to be, but still changed the tones of some of the actors as Jackson did even went as far as to get big names and ended up with the same number of non white actors in the end, would you be ok with that?
    That sounds fine.


    Could they do that to WOT too please?

  3. #2943
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    That sounds fine.


    Could they do that to WOT too please?
    At this point, I just wish they would go full out and make an animated series.

    Not sure if you've seen the animated segments they have for Wheel of Time history (also produced by Amazon as a history spotlight for the show), they're done pretty damned well. It's like an animated Graphic Novel with narration on top.

    - edit -

    Found it:
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-19 at 01:45 AM.

  4. #2944
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    At this point, I just wish they would go full out and make an animated series.

    Not sure if you've seen the animated segments they have for Wheel of Time history (also produced by Amazon as a history spotlight for the show), they're done pretty damned well. It's like an animated Graphic Novel with narration on top.

    - edit -

    Found it:
    Animated could have been done so much better, would have loved to watch it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  5. #2945
    I know this doesn't have to do with the Amazon show, but it's tangentially related (especially given the news a page or two back of another entertainment group purchasing the rights to Tolkien's works). Below is a diorama of the Pelennor Fields (released today) that comprises the art for 18 cards that will appear in a soon to be released M:tG set based on Middle-earth. At the bottom there are some of the members of the Fellowship (including someone who is more than likely Aragorn, wielding a more literal version of the "Flame" of the West).

    If these things sorts of things are going to bother you that much, then you're going to have a tough time with a lot of modern Western fantasy adaptations and interpretations. As has been noted so many times in the thread, no one is going back and erasing the books to create a new canon. They will always be there as the direct words of the author, while adaptations will always be up to the artist's imagination (and no, not being hamstrung by every little detail doesn't mean you hate the lore). We don't NEED a black Aragorn, but at the same time we also don't NEED dozens of carbon copies of a Viggo Mortensen looking Aragorn.

    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-08-19 at 02:22 AM.

  6. #2946
    Pit Lord rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Here I’ll address it directly, saying your gonna be hyper faithful and then pulling the rug out and adding abunch of new characters story lines and saying it’s just inspired by down the line is a shitty thing to do as is just wanting to fill quotas and hiring actors you expect nothing out of to do so.

    That being said though, if they were super faithful to the second age added no new characters no new story’s lines did every thing as it was suppose to be, but still changed the tones of some of the actors as Jackson did even went as far as to get big names and ended up with the same number of non white actors in the end, would you be ok with that?
    if they had said from the outset that they were making a show using the foundation of Sauron and the forging of the rings of power and then adding to it as needed in order to fill out the material, i doubt many but the most hardcore fans would care, but they never did, they doubled down on the whole 'faithful adaptation' bullshit until extremely recently when the backlash against EVERYTHING they put out to try and spin it in a less negative light has failed and now they are actually admitting that it's not even remotely close to an adaptation, but an original story set in that framework with mostly original writing and only being 'inspired by' at best, and that's where the majority of the backlash and hate is coming from, it's that they set the initial expectations in such a way that revealing their storyline and cast years later to be the antithesis of that, that's why me and many like me are complaining, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'hur dur black actor is bad' and everything to do with the fact that based on ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION it appears that this entire cast was chosen to push forward a message or agenda that the people writing and producing this project want to see pushed and nothing whatsoever to do with the actual material they were supposed to be adapting to begin with.

  7. #2947
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I know this doesn't have to do with the Amazon show, but it's tangentially related (especially given the news a page or two back of another entertainment group purchasing the rights to Tolkien's works). Below is a diorama of the Pelennor Fields (released today) that comprises the art for 18 cards that will appear in a soon to be released M:tG set based on Middle-earth. At the bottom there are some of the members of the Fellowship (including someone who is more than likely Aragorn, wielding a more literal version of the "Flame" of the West).

    If these things sorts of things are going to bother you that much, then you're going to have a tough time with a lot of modern Western fantasy adaptations and interpretations. As has been noted so many times in the thread, no one is going back and erasing the books to create a new canon. They will always be there as the direct words of the author, while adaptations will always be up to the artist's imagination (and no, not being hamstrung by every little detail doesn't mean you hate the lore). We don't NEED a black Aragorn, but at the same time we also don't NEED dozens of carbon copies of a Viggo Mortensen looking Aragorn.

    I mean the solution so far has been to simply abandon modern works. The audience isnt going to adjust to eating garbage. They are just going to turn to audio books or better series.

    The lack of competition is part of the reason 40k has skyrocketed in popularity. I'm struggling to think of modern literary works that succeeded in fantasy. I can only really think of Harry Potter and Malazon tales of the fallen that have really taken off.

    Destroying classics in the vain hope that you can springboard a new work off them rarely works.

  8. #2948
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    if they had said from the outset that they were making a show using the foundation of Sauron and the forging of the rings of power and then adding to it as needed in order to fill out the material, i doubt many but the most hardcore fans would care, but they never did, they doubled down on the whole 'faithful adaptation' bullshit until extremely recently when the backlash against EVERYTHING they put out to try and spin it in a less negative light has failed and now they are actually admitting that it's not even remotely close to an adaptation, but an original story set in that framework with mostly original writing and only being 'inspired by' at best, and that's where the majority of the backlash and hate is coming from, it's that they set the initial expectations in such a way that revealing their storyline and cast years later to be the antithesis of that, that's why me and many like me are complaining, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with 'hur dur black actor is bad' and everything to do with the fact that based on ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION it appears that this entire cast was chosen to push forward a message or agenda that the people writing and producing this project want to see pushed and nothing whatsoever to do with the actual material they were supposed to be adapting to begin with.
    So just to be clear as your post is a bit ramblely, You would be 100% fine with them race swapping existing characters from Tolkins work if they had got big actors and were other wise as faithful as possible ya?
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #2949
    Quote Originally Posted by Tentim View Post
    I mean the solution so far has been to simply abandon modern works. The audience isnt going to adjust to eating garbage. They are just going to turn to audio books or better series.

    The lack of competition is part of the reason 40k has skyrocketed in popularity. I'm struggling to think of modern literary works that succeeded in fantasy. I can only really think of Harry Potter and Malazon tales of the fallen that have really taken off.

    Destroying classics in the vain hope that you can springboard a new work off them rarely works.
    "Lack of competition" in what sense? In terms of just books? The Black Library churns out books like they're just letting an algorithm write them at this point, and I don't think any ever get to the point of actually being best sellers (probably because they release like 3 books a week). There are plenty of fantasy books written each year that do well without being backed by a decades old miniature gaming franchise.

    If we're just talking about general fantasy entertainment then I literally just referenced a company that dwarfs Games Workshop in that regard. Wizards of the Coast has been growing their main properties (MTG and D&D) tremendously, and over the past decade or so have taken a lot of steps to make their settings more inclusive while also distancing themselves from more problematic depictions from earlier years. Having a TCG card depicting a black Aragorn isn't going to hurt them in the least bit, nor is it "destroying classics".

  10. #2950
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    "Lack of competition" in what sense? In terms of just books? The Black Library churns out books like they're just letting an algorithm write them at this point, and I don't think any ever get to the point of actually being best sellers (probably because they release like 3 books a week). There are plenty of fantasy books written each year that do well without being backed by a decades old miniature gaming franchise.

    If we're just talking about general fantasy entertainment then I literally just referenced a company that dwarfs Games Workshop in that regard. Wizards of the Coast has been growing their main properties (MTG and D&D) tremendously, and over the past decade or so have taken a lot of steps to make their settings more inclusive while also distancing themselves from more problematic depictions from earlier years. Having a TCG card depicting a black Aragorn isn't going to hurt them in the least bit, nor is it "destroying classics".
    Did they promote that artwork with press releases saying they would be as faithful as possible to the source material then they release this piece of artwork?

    Creative liberties are fine if the artists or creators are transparent about their intentions. Like, Shadow of Mordor videogame went as far as having Shelob be able to present herself as a beautiful human or elf woman. No one really gets upset st that because the game makers were clear they just wanted to make a cool game in the Middle Earth universe and tell a cool story. They didn't go out of their way to promote the game as being super faithful to the source material like some upcoming TV show did.

    The controversy surrounding RoP is really a product of Amazon's marketting, and its hard to tell whether they intended to be faithful and continue to think they are, merely understated how much the show would deviate from the books, or intentionally want to stir a hornets nest for the sake of building buzz.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-19 at 06:27 AM.

  11. #2951
    Pit Lord rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    So just to be clear as your post is a bit ramblely, You would be 100% fine with them race swapping existing characters from Tolkins work if they had got big actors and were other wise as faithful as possible ya?
    if they had come out and said *insert worldwide known and loved minority actor here* had auditioned for the leading role and he/she was the best option during auditions, and they had made it a known quantity from the outset that this would be a thing, i wouldn't really care, but as i have said now for third time since you started this train of questioning, that's not what they said, they stated that it was going to categorically be a 'faithful adaptation of the story of the second age', and it wasn't until all of their marketing material got shown for the utter shite that it is, that they were forced to come out recently in interviews and admit they had not been truthful, and that much of the writing of the show is going to be fabricated with very little actually coming from the source material.

  12. #2952
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i already have my response to this asinine question a hundred pages back or so, but for your benefit i'll give it again:

    i have no issues with diverse casting, no issue with the best person for the job being given a role regardless of what they look like.

    my issue with this project is that when it was announced, it was stated by the showrunners that it was going to be a 'faithful adaptation of the second age epic showcasing the forging of the rings of power and the events that led up to the war of the ring' ERGO the expectations set from the outset was that they were going to be writing and showcasing a story in the same vein as what peter jackson did for the LOTR trilogy of films.
    Where are you getting that quote from?

  13. #2953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Did they promote that artwork with press releases saying they would be as faithful as possible to the source material then they release this piece of artwork?

    Creative liberties are fine if the artists or creators are transparent about their intentions. Like, Shadow of Mordor videogame went as far as having Shelob be able to present herself as a beautiful human or elf woman. No one really gets upset st that because the game makers were clear they just wanted to make a cool game in the Middle Earth universe and tell a cool story. They didn't go out of their way to promote the game as being super faithful to the source material like some upcoming TV show did.

    The controversy surrounding RoP is really a product of Amazon's marketting, and its hard to tell whether they intended to be faithful and continue to think they are, merely understated how much the show would deviate from the books, or intentionally want to stir a hornets nest for the sake of building buzz.
    errr there were tons out outrage about that, there were articles and outcry from both side, one side crying about how they diverged from the source material and another about how they sexualised Shelob, just look it up there should still be louds of articles online. xD

    Where were you? xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I know this doesn't have to do with the Amazon show, but it's tangentially related (especially given the news a page or two back of another entertainment group purchasing the rights to Tolkien's works). Below is a diorama of the Pelennor Fields (released today) that comprises the art for 18 cards that will appear in a soon to be released M:tG set based on Middle-earth. At the bottom there are some of the members of the Fellowship (including someone who is more than likely Aragorn, wielding a more literal version of the "Flame" of the West).

    If these things sorts of things are going to bother you that much, then you're going to have a tough time with a lot of modern Western fantasy adaptations and interpretations. As has been noted so many times in the thread, no one is going back and erasing the books to create a new canon. They will always be there as the direct words of the author, while adaptations will always be up to the artist's imagination (and no, not being hamstrung by every little detail doesn't mean you hate the lore). We don't NEED a black Aragorn, but at the same time we also don't NEED dozens of carbon copies of a Viggo Mortensen looking Aragorn.

    Lets not forget Native American Aragorn played by John Hurt (RIP) :P



    Also if I may add, the best Aragorn to date... This movie is finally starting to grow a cult following despite the fact it isn't a perfect movie, but its got some great stuff in it.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-08-19 at 07:45 AM.
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  14. #2954
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The description that the Harfoots had browner skin does not come from the Hobbit's point of view themselves, it is just a foot-note in the Appendices; a description that comes from a gods-eye POV. The timeline seems far removed enough that Hobbits may not have even encountered Harfoots and been aware of their skintones (by means of seeing it in person). Harfoots are considered ancestral Hobbits, and they would have lived generations apart.
    Afaik the appendices make it clear that all three "types" of hobbits settled together at the shire, and that harfoots did often had fallohides as their leaders. It never says that modern hobbits don't follow one of the three "breeds" (or a mix of them which would also include the browner skins) though as far as I'm aware.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  15. #2955
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    errr there were tons out outrage about that, there were articles and outcry from both side, one side crying about how they diverged from the source material and another about how they sexualised Shelob, just look it up there should still be louds of articles online. xD

    Where were you? xD
    There will always be complaints. There will always be purists, there will always be people complaining about sexy women, there will always be some complaining about X.
    Saying the backlash for the game compared to ROP is equal is a bit disingenuous I feel.
    And why do they receive different amount? Probably because one party is straight up lying to people, while another just did what they wanted to do.

    Vast majority I know of and what i've heard praises the games, there are of course articles. But there always will be, it draws views if anything. Outrage sells. Hell, one of the articles I remember were talking about the tutorial section in the first game where you used stealth and then pressed "A" to kiss your wife as a way to teach you how to use stealth and assassinate orcs. They wrote how it portrayed women or relationships in a toxic way and what not, it was bizarre as hell.

    McGee's alice in wonderland is another good example of someone really just taking their own liberties with a story and it's characters and from what I know, most like it. Even if they don't like the game in of itself, I've heard little complaints about the setting and style. I'm sure there are some.
    But why is that? Probably because it wasn't advertised as being faithful to, lets say, disneys alice in wonderland. People would have had other expectations then and then they get a horror version of it. Of course people would be more mad about that because it's DECEIVING. That's the biggest crux with advertisement for ROP.

    If Amazon had gone out with saying that they would do their own thing and tell their own stories in this world, they would still get flack from purists and what not, but you would get less complaints overall. It wouldn't guarantee a success either way, so it could still be shit, but the optics would be wildly different.

    People seem excited to the new Winnie the Pooh horror flick as well. Because it's advertised to be a grotesque horror flick and not a "faithful Winnie the Pooh story".
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-08-19 at 08:12 AM.
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  16. #2956
    Long time fan of LOTR here. Seen what can be seen & read what can be read. I gotta say, at first I was very skeptical about this show for many reasons. I was even at a point were I wouldnt watch this. But, as we draw closer to premiere, i've pretty much desided to give it a serious go. Cause why not? It might be great, it might be something new and fresh in this great & cool universe.

    Or it might be absolute dogshite of a horrorshow and I will regret ever watching it. Oh well, thats life. and to be honest, a risk im willing to take. In the end, I want more LOTR stuff.

  17. #2957
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Did they promote that artwork with press releases saying they would be as faithful as possible to the source material then they release this piece of artwork?

    Creative liberties are fine if the artists or creators are transparent about their intentions. Like, Shadow of Mordor videogame went as far as having Shelob be able to present herself as a beautiful human or elf woman. No one really gets upset st that because the game makers were clear they just wanted to make a cool game in the Middle Earth universe and tell a cool story. They didn't go out of their way to promote the game as being super faithful to the source material like some upcoming TV show did.

    The controversy surrounding RoP is really a product of Amazon's marketting, and its hard to tell whether they intended to be faithful and continue to think they are, merely understated how much the show would deviate from the books, or intentionally want to stir a hornets nest for the sake of building buzz.
    This whole argument is just silly. These companies/creators buy the rights to use the source material and then create art/drama/etc very clearly based on that source material. Regardless of the marketing, all of them are very much trying to firmly ground themselves in the source material, even if they take creative liberties with a lot of details. The video games still market themselves as "Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor", the TCG set is marketing itself as "The Lord of the Rings: Tales of Middle-earth". Obviously the point of all of them is to produce something that can fit into our ideas of Middle-earth.

    How faithful an adaptation might be is a pretty arbitrary metric anyway. If you want to go through every detail (for the show or for the artwork) and make a comprehensive list of "things that are correct/things that are incorrect" and then determine what percentage constitutes "faithful" then go right ahead. For some people even a single change will make it unfaithful in their eyes while for others you can have many changes while still being faithful to the spirit and feel of the world and stories within.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Interesting news.

    I don't think this will have a big impact on RoP's liscence though, since Amazon has been rumored to have 5 seasons planned and it is probably part of the $250 million liscencing deal. This is just a change of rights holder, and it will probably be a few years out before we hear how the handover will impact the current (and near-future) projects and their liscencing deals.
    This is another handover of the rights that Tolkien sold back in 1968 and specifically covers film, stage, and merchandising. The rights that Amazon got (global television rights) came from the Tolkien Estate and are not covered by this Embracer Group deal.

    Warner Bros still retains some movie rights as well (the ones associated with the Peter Jackson movies), and any products that are based on those movies, nor will this deal affect the animated movie they’re developing.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-08-19 at 09:47 AM.

  18. #2958
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    How faithful an adaptation might be is a pretty arbitrary metric anyway. If you want to go through every detail (for the show or for the artwork) and make a comprehensive list of "things that are correct/things that are incorrect" and then determine what percentage constitutes "faithful" then go right ahead. For some people even a single change will make it unfaithful in their eyes while for others you can have many changes while still being faithful to the spirit and feel of the world and stories within.
    What you're describing as a metric of faithfulness is purely subjective. And i wouldn't equate subjective values on faithfulness as being arbitrary, rather they are reason for people to express likes and dislikes as they please.

    Just because you and I are okay with a Black Aragorn does not mean everyone else will be, and no one would be wrong for having a differing opinion. And if Aragorn is the example you wish to use, then it is absolutely relevant to how the source material has clear descriptions of what Aragorn looked like. Not everyone has to be accepting of every adaptation, not everyone will, and not everyone should be beholden to accepting it either. And I want to clarify that not preferring a Black Aragorn in this MTG art would not somehow be a racist opinion, since we aren't talking about anyone's rights being infringed here. We're talking about an interpretation of art.

    This level of 'calling out' people is like telling everyone they shouldn't have problems with pineapple on their pizza. No one needs someone policing their preferences.

    We can have a mutual discussion of opinions without calling people out on their preferences and making judgements on how they're somehow wrong for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Afaik the appendices make it clear that all three "types" of hobbits settled together at the shire, and that harfoots did often had fallohides as their leaders. It never says that modern hobbits don't follow one of the three "breeds" (or a mix of them which would also include the browner skins) though as far as I'm aware.
    That argument has been recently put to light for me, and I think that's a sensible way to interpret the lore. I wouldn't mind that depiction then, and would find it acceptable if it remains reasonably faithful to the original fiction.

    My personal interpretation and from those around me were that Hobbits would have been fair skinned, and even examples of Samwise's hands would have been a result of external factors rather than genetic. Now that I am aware that there is a reasonable interpretation for Hobbits to have Brown skin then I'd absolutely be open to that option.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-19 at 11:18 AM.

  19. #2959
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    if they had come out and said *insert worldwide known and loved minority actor here* had auditioned for the leading role and he/she was the best option during auditions, and they had made it a known quantity from the outset that this would be a thing, i wouldn't really care, but as i have said now for third time since you started this train of questioning, that's not what they said, they stated that it was going to categorically be a 'faithful adaptation of the story of the second age', and it wasn't until all of their marketing material got shown for the utter shite that it is, that they were forced to come out recently in interviews and admit they had not been truthful, and that much of the writing of the show is going to be fabricated with very little actually coming from the source material.
    Well then here’s have a “not a racist” stamp, hopefully with will get a more faithful LoTR movie with idris elba as Aragorn in the future.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #2960
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Well then here’s have a “not a racist” stamp, hopefully with will get a more faithful LoTR movie with idris elba as Aragorn in the future.
    Lol he is like Henry Cavill.... you can slot him in as any male character and people will go "ah I'll approve"

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