1. #2961
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Back-and-Forth arguments are keeping the thread in the "Recent Forum Posts" box and at the top of the subforum. The only reason there's so much activity in this thread is literally because of the controversy Amazon stirred up; it works because it's got people talking about it. Otherwise I think this thread would be as obscure as say the current Stranger Things thread where there's nothing much to talk about till the new season hits. I mean, InfinityCharger posted a new video talking about the story and like... no one else even cared to respond to that.

    Shit floats to the top, so they say.
    There is more discussion on social media about the phenotype of the actors than the show itself, showing that there isn't much interest in it. Which means that their marketing and advertising are not getting support for the Amazon "brand" of Tolkien.

    But the more ironic point behind the video is that it shows a new wholly made up group called the Southerners and none of them are diverse. No representation of Harad and the Haradrim who were supporters of Sauron and obviously included various diversity in phenotype. Which means they just randomly inserted 'diverse' skin colors among a couple elves, a couple of dwarves and maybe one or two Numenoreans and called it a day while ignoring Harad and the Haradrim all together, not to mention the Easterlings.

    LOL!

    Again, going to my point if they were serious then half the Numenoreans would be black or mixed race, another 1/4 would be Asian or mixed and the rest European. And there would be a whole group of black Elves and not just one or two plus various and assorted black dwarves. But they didn't do that now did they. Because at the end of the day, that would show a true commitment to diversity, while these chocolate sprinkles can be ignored by any other studio as 'non canon'.

  2. #2962
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    There is more discussion on social media about the phenotype of the actors than the show itself, showing that there isn't much interest in it.
    Well, the show also isn't, you know, OUT YET. So it's not like the actual story is something we can talk about in great detail because... we don't know it in great detail yet.

    In the absence of plot, people latch on to other things.

  3. #2963
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    There is more discussion on social media about the phenotype of the actors than the show itself, showing that there isn't much interest in it. Which means that their marketing and advertising are not getting support for the Amazon "brand" of Tolkien.

    But the more ironic point behind the video is that it shows a new wholly made up group called the Southerners and none of them are diverse. No representation of Harad and the Haradrim who were supporters of Sauron and obviously included various diversity in phenotype. Which means they just randomly inserted 'diverse' skin colors among a couple elves, a couple of dwarves and maybe one or two Numenoreans and called it a day while ignoring Harad and the Haradrim all together, not to mention the Easterlings.

    LOL!

    Again, going to my point if they were serious then half the Numenoreans would be black or mixed race, another 1/4 would be Asian or mixed and the rest European. And there would be a whole group of black Elves and not just one or two plus various and assorted black dwarves. But they didn't do that now did they. Because at the end of the day, that would show a true commitment to diversity, while these chocolate sprinkles can be ignored by any other studio as 'non canon'.
    Do you mean this trailer about the southerners? because it's diverse, at 48 and 57 seconds you can see a group shot with black people Asians and white people as well as there being other miscellaneous brown people through out the trailer.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #2964
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Do you mean this trailer about the southerners? because it's diverse, at 48 and 57 seconds you can see a group shot with black people Asians and white people as well as there being other miscellaneous brown people through out the trailer.
    Ahhh, right, random sprinkles that technically don't look distinct from the Harfoots or Numenoreans. I mean all of these folks just look like random "humans" from Middle Earth versus the distinct groups found in the books. Look at the harfoots and then look at these "southerners" and they just look the same really, Amazon made up generic characters with generic peasant costume. Where is the actual diversity in being able to distinguish these groups on any level? I mean you can distinguish clearly between Gandalf, dwarves, hobbits and elves in the books as examples of "diversity" in Middle Earth. This is just absurd at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Well, the show also isn't, you know, OUT YET. So it's not like the actual story is something we can talk about in great detail because... we don't know it in great detail yet.

    In the absence of plot, people latch on to other things.
    People who are hyped about something like this would be talking about the costumes, potential easter eggs, potential plot points and characters yet to be revealed and speculate about what is actually going to happen based on the Lore. That isn't even really happening for this.

  5. #2965
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Do you mean this trailer about the southerners? because it's diverse, at 48 and 57 seconds you can see a group shot with black people Asians and white people as well as there being other miscellaneous brown people through out the trailer.
    This "Southlands" isn't even Harad. You can see from the map that they briefly show at the beginning that this is the area that would become Mordor. East of Gondor and north of Harad.

  6. #2966
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Ahhh, right, random sprinkles that technically don't look distinct from the Harfoots or Numenoreans. I mean all of these folks just look like random "humans" from Middle Earth versus the distinct groups found in the books. Look at the harfoots and then look at these "southerners" and they just look the same really, Amazon made up generic characters with generic peasant costume. Where is the actual diversity in being able to distinguish these groups on any level? I mean you can distinguish clearly between Gandalf, dwarves, hobbits and elves in the books as examples of "diversity" in Middle Earth. This is just absurd at this point.
    hobbit's dwarfs and elves are all different races with different cultures and norms if the southerners are just suppose to be a group of Men and one that apparently didn't break off based on skin tone why would they have divides as big as whole different races instead of just having a uniform culture like the hobbits dwarfs and elves?

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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    This "Southlands" isn't even Harad. You can see from the map that they briefly show at the beginning that this is the area that would become Mordor. East of Gondor and north of Harad.
    Don't know if there is any basis for this within the actual works but if its where Mordor pops up and north of Harad it could be argued that theses are suppose to be the same people but Mordor popping up pushed them further south.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #2967
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Don't know if there is any basis for this within the actual works but if its where Mordor pops up and north of Harad it could be argued that theses are suppose to be the same people but Mordor popping up pushed them further south.
    No idea. Given what we've seen in the trailer(s), this is probably going to be the main area of military conflict in the season. The orcs moving in and Sauron establishing his kingdom. It might even be the place we see completely turned to ash in those red-tinted shots of Galadriel, but it's been a while since I saw the breakdown that mentioned it.

  8. #2968
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Well, the show also isn't, you know, OUT YET. So it's not like the actual story is something we can talk about in great detail because... we don't know it in great detail yet.

    In the absence of plot, people latch on to other things.
    The fact that they aren't talking about the story less than a month before it airs, should be setting off warning klaxons. Spoilers be damned, your promos need to have something about the narrative on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Ahhh, right, random sprinkles that technically don't look distinct from the Harfoots or Numenoreans. I mean all of these folks just look like random "humans" from Middle Earth versus the distinct groups found in the books. Look at the harfoots and then look at these "southerners" and they just look the same really, Amazon made up generic characters with generic peasant costume. Where is the actual diversity in being able to distinguish these groups on any level? I mean you can distinguish clearly between Gandalf, dwarves, hobbits and elves in the books as examples of "diversity" in Middle Earth. This is just absurd at this point.

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    People who are hyped about something like this would be talking about the costumes, potential easter eggs, potential plot points and characters yet to be revealed and speculate about what is actually going to happen based on the Lore. That isn't even really happening for this.
    The funny thing is that their take on Harfoots just look like homeless humans in the promo pictures. Like, they don't even attempt to make them look short and their feet don't look enlarged like you'd expect from LOTR.

  9. #2969
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    This "Southlands" isn't even Harad. You can see from the map that they briefly show at the beginning that this is the area that would become Mordor. East of Gondor and north of Harad.
    Yes, it is a completely made up group of humans not part of Tolkien's Lore. In the actual Lore, Sauron's main armies that gathered against the Elves were made up of Easterlings and Southlings. Both of these groups were distinct.

    What he could not control by subtlety, Sauron resolved to destroy by force. He obtained the allegiance of Men that lived in lands that were adjacent to Mordor, including in regions of the White Mountains and in Calenardhon. The Númenóreans who occupied the Ethir Anduin and the coasts of Lebennin discovered his activities and informed Gil-galad about them. Hover Sauron did not allow the tribes of eastern Men to come in sight of the Númenóreans or of Men of Good Will that lived in Eriador, Calenardhon, the Vales of Anduin, Greenwood the Great or in the plains between that wood and Mordor to avoid the risk that his gathering of armies in the east would be discovered. Sauron gathered and trained his armies for approximately ninety years before he felt ready to attack. He was able to gather less troops than he hoped for, because powerful enemies in the East and South opposed his gathering of troops. Among those powerful enemies in the East were the two wizards Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Their task was to stir up rebellion and to cause dissension and disarray in the East. Otherwise the forces of the East would have outnumbered those of the West in the Second Age and in the Third Age. In S.A. 1695 Sauron's vast armies passed through Calenardhon, invaded Eriador and turned north to attack Eregion.
    https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/War_...ves_and_Sauron

    And the "south land" in Tolkien is an actual separate continent:

    The Dark Land, also referred to as the South Land, was a continent that lay in south-east Arda.
    https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dark_Land

  10. #2970
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Like, they don't even attempt to make them look short and their feet don't look enlarged like you'd expect from LOTR.
    Well, that's a lie.

  11. #2971
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    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Actually, this touches on my main issue with this series. Legendary events of the past shrouded in the mists of time thrill us specifically because they are mysterious. The Pyramids in Egypt have long been fascinating because of their mysteriousness, the more we learned about them the less interesting and more mundane they became, while still impressive. Darth Vader was amazingly cool when we knew so little of how he came to be the way he was, the prequels ruined our image of him irrevocably. Try imagining Darth Vader now without remembering him also being a brat whining about sand in his asscrack.

    Ancient events in Middle Earth are fascinating because we don't know exactly how they happened. By actually showing those events it takes away that mystique and we end up seeing them as just a thing that happened.

    I don't want to see legends of the past brought to life, I'd prefer to see what comes afterward.
    Oh I would absolutely LOVE to see fourth age. Get the old PJ actors back to show Pippin writing the red book of west march, Aragorn and Eomers wars in the east, and we cannot forget the best bromance to ever bromance, Legolas and Gimli traveling around Fangorn, AND THE GLITTERING CAVES. So effing much they could work with there and far more open to original stories than the second age is too.

    But alas, we get a hyper compressed second age instead. I'll take what I can get.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  12. #2972
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Oh I would absolutely LOVE to see fourth age. Get the old PJ actors back to show Pippin writing the red book of west march, Aragorn and Eomers wars in the east, and we cannot forget the best bromance to ever bromance, Legolas and Gimli traveling around Fangorn, AND THE GLITTERING CAVES. So effing much they could work with there and far more open to original stories than the second age is too.

    But alas, we get a hyper compressed second age instead. I'll take what I can get.
    Tolkien himself tried to write a 4th age sequel but to quote himself:

    "I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."
    So honestly, doing a fourth age story would actually go against what Tolkien wanted to do, as opposed to Amazon fleshing out the 2nd age.

    In other news, HotD was pretty awesome today so Amazon really has to deliver now or they will lose the prequel-show-wars

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  13. #2973
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Ahhh, right, random sprinkles that technically don't look distinct from the Harfoots or Numenoreans. I mean all of these folks just look like random "humans" from Middle Earth versus the distinct groups found in the books. Look at the harfoots and then look at these "southerners" and they just look the same really, Amazon made up generic characters with generic peasant costume. Where is the actual diversity in being able to distinguish these groups on any level? I mean you can distinguish clearly between Gandalf, dwarves, hobbits and elves in the books as examples of "diversity" in Middle Earth. This is just absurd at this point.

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    People who are hyped about something like this would be talking about the costumes, potential easter eggs, potential plot points and characters yet to be revealed and speculate about what is actually going to happen based on the Lore. That isn't even really happening for this.
    The only thing people seemed to be hyped about with this series is that its less of a historical fiction and more of a moderne day political agenda tribute.

  14. #2974
    Fourth Age is like an extra long version of Extended Return of the King's ending.

  15. #2975
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Tolkien himself tried to write a 4th age sequel but to quote himself:



    So honestly, doing a fourth age story would actually go against what Tolkien wanted to do, as opposed to Amazon fleshing out the 2nd age.

    In other news, HotD was pretty awesome today so Amazon really has to deliver now or they will lose the prequel-show-wars
    Well poo then, I'll just have to make do with all of the fanart renditions of the realm Gimli built, at the center of which was his crown jewel, 3 hairs inlaid in crystal, his own arkenstone. Listening to him talk to legolas about how lovingly he would shape those caves is still one my top 3 favorite parts of the trilogy.

    Although.....unrelated to the thread topic, there is the "Return to Moria" themed survival-builder coming out later this year, I am desperately hoping that gives me a nice strong hit of that dwarven love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Fourth Age is like an extra long version of Extended Return of the King's ending.
    Pretty much lol. Maybe don't even make a whole series about it, just a series of shorts showing those bits not covered in the PJ extended cuts. What tolkien was worried about certainly doesn't sound like the kinds of stories in the fourth age I'd want to see anyway for the same reasons he didn't like it. But those snippets immediately following the fall? sign me up. Hell give me a 15 minute sequence with zero dialogue of Samwise walking around the shire sprinkling fairy dust and planting the malorne and I'll find it charming and relaxing.
    Last edited by AcidicSyn; 2022-08-22 at 04:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  16. #2976
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Pretty much lol. Maybe don't even make a whole series about it, just a series of shorts showing those bits not covered in the PJ extended cuts.
    I remember marathoning the extended versions in an afternoon with some friends one summer. With food breaks taken into account, we made it to the point where it was already pitch black outside when they destroyed the ring. And we're about to get ready to go home but the movie still had like an hour left to conclude after the ring had already been destroyed. So we're just sitting there mulling over whether to finish watching every character visit Frodo one by one, or just take off for the night.

    Reading the bullet points for Fourth Age sounds like another hour or two of that lol.

  17. #2977
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    hobbit's dwarfs and elves are all different races with different cultures and norms if the southerners are just suppose to be a group of Men and one that apparently didn't break off based on skin tone why would they have divides as big as whole different races instead of just having a uniform culture like the hobbits dwarfs and elves?

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    Don't know if there is any basis for this within the actual works but if its where Mordor pops up and north of Harad it could be argued that theses are suppose to be the same people but Mordor popping up pushed them further south.
    The Southlands are visibly part of what will become Mordor, south of the plains of Gorgoroth. But contrary to Gorgoroth, it is fertile and the people living there were enslaved by Sauron to produce the food needed for his armies. After Sauron's ultimate defeat, Aragorn freed the slaves and gave them back their land. They say in the clip that they chose the wrong side once, so they could be a remnant of the Easterlings who followed Morgoth during the First Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Oh I would absolutely LOVE to see fourth age. Get the old PJ actors back to show Pippin writing the red book of west march, Aragorn and Eomers wars in the east, and we cannot forget the best bromance to ever bromance, Legolas and Gimli traveling around Fangorn, AND THE GLITTERING CAVES. So effing much they could work with there and far more open to original stories than the second age is too.

    But alas, we get a hyper compressed second age instead. I'll take what I can get.
    I'm afraid it would be rather boring. Happy people have no stories to tell.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  18. #2978
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    The Southlands are visibly part of what will become Mordor, south of the plains of Gorgoroth. But contrary to Gorgoroth, it is fertile and the people living there were enslaved by Sauron to produce the food needed for his armies. After Sauron's ultimate defeat, Aragorn freed the slaves and gave them back their land. They say in the clip that they chose the wrong side once, so they could be a remnant of the Easterlings who followed Morgoth during the First Age.
    Ah, this the south lands in the show is where Mordor will be then it would make sense if Sauron shows up to collect dues of them siding with Morgoth and then ends up enslaving them which could very well fit with what’s been shown in the trailer so far and the status co in LotR.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #2979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post


    I'm afraid it would be rather boring. Happy people have no stories to tell.
    Boring for some I suppose, not to me. I'd happily spend hours in post fall middle earth watching everyone rebuild without any big conflicts to trouble over. For those that need the action, they can follow Kings Elesar and Eomer as they clean up and reclaim old territory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    You are kinda joe Roganing this topic. Hardly have any actual knowledge other than what people have told you, and jumping into a discussion with people who have direct experience with it. Don't be Joe Rogan.

  20. #2980
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Oh I would absolutely LOVE to see fourth age. Get the old PJ actors back to show Pippin writing the red book of west march, Aragorn and Eomers wars in the east, and we cannot forget the best bromance to ever bromance, Legolas and Gimli traveling around Fangorn, AND THE GLITTERING CAVES. So effing much they could work with there and far more open to original stories than the second age is too.

    But alas, we get a hyper compressed second age instead. I'll take what I can get.
    I want a series with Legolas and his hetero life-mate Gimli played by Jason Mewes and Kevin Smith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The only thing people seemed to be hyped about with this series is that its less of a historical fiction and more of a moderne day political agenda tribute.
    The only people saying that are ones who think "women should be allowed to do things" and "black people should be allowed to exist" are political statements.

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