1. #3021
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What about the subjective preferences haven't being discussed?

    I literally am pointing out that we did discuss them, and we both reached disagreement.
    Then you need to re-read what I said.

    You going "I just don't agree, gg no re" when I raise an objection isn't discussion. It's you invoking "opinion" to AVOID having a discussion. That's why I'm saying if you're not interested in discussing things, just SAY so. Just admit all you want is to give your opinion and have other people hear it, without having to explain or defend yourself.

    If that's NOT what you want and you ARE interested in actually convincing people your position is justified, you have to defend it. And that includes engaging with objections, not just dodging the discussion with "just my opinion, man".

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It doesn't matter what you base your principles on, they are still an expression of your subjective opinion.
    No. They're arguments. Open to objections and rebuttals. I give justification for what I'm convinced of, either out of my own initiative or on demand. Things I don't want to or can't justify (and that aren't trivial presuppositions) I usually don't bring into these debates. Because they have no place in a debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The only way to regard your 'principles' is by discussing them, and choosing to agree or disagree. It doesn't matter if you (even) used scientific fact to reach your conclusion, the nature of the conclusion you reached is still ultimately based on your subjective opinion
    That's just not true. I reach conclusions based on how convincing their justification is. If I have objections to those justifications, I raise them. If I can't find an objection, I accept them. That's how discourse works.

    What you're describing isn't discourse. "I like vanilla ice cream, but not chocolate" isn't an argument, it's just a preference. Nothing can be discussed about this. "Racism is bad" is NOT just a preference - everyone can (and should) give justification for why they think so. These either convince someone or they do not, based on the justifications given. That's usually an ongoing discourse. The second you turn "Racism is bad" into "I like vanilla ice cream", you've left the discourse. And you should admit as much.

    That doesn't mean all discourse needs to reach a conclusion every time. This is an open-ended process. But "agree to disagree" is not a valid position, it's just a termination of the discourse. And that's very different from "we've reached a point where neither of us can further justify or prove their position", which can happen, too. But you refusing to engage with an objection and just pulling the "opinion" card is not that, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    'Racial discrimination' is not objectively defineable, we'd agree yes?
    "Attitudes and behaviors towards a group or individual caused solely by the fact that group or those individuals display particular racial characteristics". Would you disagree that this is an objective definition of "racial discrimination"?

    Or what are you getting at, exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'll just say it's hard to move on when the person on the other side then implies if you can't make the argument you must be a closet racist.
    Nobody said this. You're trying to make this into a general point, when it's a SPECIFIC point.

    I'm saying if you can't justify excluding people based on skin color with a good reason, that's being racist. That doesn't mean the same is true for ANY argument. It just means it's true for THIS ONE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    "I prefer how the books and Peter Jackson movies depict it" is subjective.
    Yes, this is a subjective preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    "This is how the books and the Peter Jackson movies depict it" is not subjectively defined. We are talking about something tangible that exists; it is objective and we can point to it with evidence.
    That's also correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Peter Jackson films depicting Elves and Dwarves with an all-white cast is an objective scenario. It exists. It is not a 'cat with 5 legs' that you can somehow dispute as being non-existent.
    And that's not what I objected to.

    I objected to "they should be white because that's how they are in the books". The CLAIM is "they should be white", the REASON is "because that's how they are in the books". I objected to the REASON and pointed out that "because that's how they are in the books" is not sufficient on it's own because it's circular reasoning and a tautology. Either it demands 100% accuracy (which is a practical impossibility in any adaptation) or it's fine with <100% accuracy, in which case the argument is no longer sufficient on its own (because clearly it doesn't apply to some characteristics). That's not subjective opinion. That's the internal logical structure of the statement.

    My objection is about the REASON, and you never engaged with it. Instead, you went back to the CLAIM and just went "well that's just what I prefer". That's what I was pointing out here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    People having those opinions does not inherrently make it true, and I'm not defined by the opinions of those people. Just like if someone called me a Nazi sympathizer, I have no obligation to prove to them that I'm not one. It'd just be an insult in ignorance.
    Just for completeness, I want to make sure that I tried hard never to call you "a racist" (and if I did, feel free to point out where I did and I will specifically apologize about each time). I only ever called certain statements or arguments racist (or racism). I don't believe in personalized generalizations beyond the trivial technical level (e.g. "you told a lie therefore you are a liar by definition" is technically true but I wouldn't call someone a liar anyway; I'd just call a specific statement a lie so as not to imply that it's habitual).

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then you are arguing principles which I do not agree with, and we can leave it there.
    Same warning as before applies, "it's not racism unless it's illegal" is not something most people would be comfortable with. You're free to hold that position, but be aware that it could get you into serious trouble out in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Right, and really I shouldn't expect others to have the moral aptitude to be able to distinguish between subjective preference and racial discrimination.
    I don't understand this. Those are very disparate things, where exactly is that distinction coming into play? Are you saying that it's okay to be racially discriminatory as long as it's your subjective preference? Surely not? This needs some explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Thank you for opening my awareness that there are people who are unable to distinguish betwee the two, and wililngly judge others as racist for merely having an opinion that does not align with their own.
    AAAHH, I see, you're saying I'm calling your opinion racist just because I don't respect it. So you're just, you know, LYING TO MY FACE. Got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    No, because bad faith arguments are a real thing.
    If you think I'm arguing in bad faith, object to it on those grounds. Show where I was arguing in bad faith, and present your case. If you can't do that, why should I believe it actually was arguing in bad faith? Why should YOU believe it, for that matter?

    You can't just go "you're arguing in bad faith, and I don't have to explain why that's just how I feel" again. Subjective preferences have no place in arguments, because they're beyond argumentative discourse. Don't try to use them like arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because I can say that this entire discussion has been quite unreasonable.
    You can, but - once again - you'd have to show where, and why. If you think there's fallacies in my arguments, point them out. I did that for some of your arguments. I explained in detail what fallacy was at work, and why. You can just do the same.

    You're very prone to just CLAIMING "this is paradoxical" "this is fallacious" etc. but you have to, you know, actually demonstrate that's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The civil war also had 'something to do with racism' and would be equally irrelevant to the topic at hand.
    And if someone in a discussion about racism had no idea what the US Civil War was, I'd tell them to sit down and read about it on Wikipedia exactly the same way. Everyone can be expected to know the basics of that kind of historical event, ESPECIALLY if the discussion topic is more than tangential. Same if someone was in a discussion about, idk, economics and didn't know what the Industrial Revolution was. And so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you define a certain act to be racist, and there's no argument that convinces you it would not be, then it is what it is.
    I have never once in my life uttered the words "there's no argument that convinces me". AT BEST it would be "I haven't heard an argument yet that has convinced me", or "I couldn't imagine an argument that would convince me (but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't)". I do not, EVER, engage in absolutes of this kind, and I find it offensive for you to be suggesting I would. I take great pains to be precise and systematic in my arguments, and observe the rules of discourse; I ask no less of others. To intimate that I'm somehow refusing to honestly engage with arguments if they're presented correctly is an outrageous claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Opposing your moral values is something I think I can live with.
    Clearly. Which is fine. You need to square your positions with yourself above all else, and many people hold many positions I consider untenable. That doesn't mean they're not allowed to hold them; and it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to be disdainful of those positions.

  2. #3022
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    Erebor would also be third age, but maybe amazon is going to go rule of cool and show morias fall and the longbeard migration to the lonely mountain early for giggles. I'd be mad about the timeline fuckery, but thrilled to see Erebor founded.
    Actually, this touches on my main issue with this series. Legendary events of the past shrouded in the mists of time thrill us specifically because they are mysterious. The Pyramids in Egypt have long been fascinating because of their mysteriousness, the more we learned about them the less interesting and more mundane they became, while still impressive. Darth Vader was amazingly cool when we knew so little of how he came to be the way he was, the prequels ruined our image of him irrevocably. Try imagining Darth Vader now without remembering him also being a brat whining about sand in his asscrack.

    Ancient events in Middle Earth are fascinating because we don't know exactly how they happened. By actually showing those events it takes away that mystique and we end up seeing them as just a thing that happened.

    I don't want to see legends of the past brought to life, I'd prefer to see what comes afterward.

  3. #3023
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Darth Vader was amazingly cool when we knew so little of how he came to be the way he was, the prequels ruined our image of him irrevocably. Try imagining Darth Vader now without remembering him also being a brat whining about sand in his asscrack.
    ---
    I don't want to see legends of the past brought to life, I'd prefer to see what comes afterward.
    *cough* Sequel Trilogy *cough*
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-08-17 at 10:49 PM.

  4. #3024
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    *cough* SEQUEL TRILOGY *cough*
    Well, what comes afterward isn't always guaranteed to be good I still prefer that over prequels, messy as the sequels may be, every time.

    The only prequel sort of show I've truly enjoyed from top to bottom has been Strange New Worlds. They are doing a phenomenal job with that show.

  5. #3025
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Ancient events in Middle Earth are fascinating because we don't know exactly how they happened. By actually showing those events it takes away that mystique and we end up seeing them as just a thing that happened.
    IDK, I feel it can go either way depending on the story/subject in question. Your pyramid example I always found the exact opposite - that unraveling the mysteries of the world made the world MORE interesting, not less. But I also agree that NOT knowing Anakin was a horndog with a child-murder fetish kinda did make Darth Vader more impressive as a character.

    I'm in two minds about it. Taking all the mystery out of world-building can be a detriment, but how much is too much is still negotiable. Will RoP go too far? Wait and see, I guess. It's a potential pitfall to be sure, how much of a deal it'll actually end up being who can tell. Until we see it.

    Personally I've always thought the truly "high" fantasy of the early ages in Tolkien's work was more appealing than the LotR stuff. Valinor, the big wars with legions of balrogs, all that kind of stuff. But maybe it sounds better in the way it's presented written in the Silmarilion etc. and is only going to end up pure CGI schlock on screen.

  6. #3026
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    Well, what comes afterward isn't always guaranteed to be good I still prefer that over prequels, messy as the sequels may be, every time.

    The only prequel sort of show I've truly enjoyed from top to bottom has been Strange New Worlds. They are doing a phenomenal job with that show.
    Not sure if you're into Breaking Bad, but Better Call Saul is actually pretty good. I'd recommend it.

  7. #3027
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Your pyramid example I always found the exact opposite - that unraveling the mysteries of the world made the world MORE interesting, not less.
    I don't know your age, so it may have just been different for your time, but when I was a kid the pyramids were mysterious and people literally thought they may be magical. No one knew what lay beyond the sealed doors and it could have been anything. Plus, how in the world did they ever even build them? Maybe aliens helped?

    Turns out it was just a great way to stack rocks and even their primitive technology was more than sufficient to move blocks. The treasures inside were, indeed, fascinating ... but they also could have turned out to be Al Capone's Vault.

    But maybe it sounds better in the way it's presented written in the Silmarilion etc. and is only going to end up pure CGI schlock on screen.
    That's my worry, that something magical in our imaginations will just end up as crass CGI. Jackson's LoTR could have ended up the same way, as well, and he did a decent job of it so here's hoping this crew can at least match that. The animated LoTR is still my favorite and likely always will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Not sure if you're into Breaking Bad, but Better Call Saul is actually pretty good. I'd recommend it.
    I know these shows are supposed to be fantastic, but they just don't seem like my kind of thing. Real world drama just doesn't do it for me.

  8. #3028
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    I don't know your age, so it may have just been different for your time, but when I was a kid the pyramids were mysterious and people literally thought they may be magical. No one knew what lay beyond the sealed doors and it could have been anything. Plus, how in the world did they ever even build them? Maybe aliens helped?

    Turns out it was just a great way to stack rocks and even their primitive technology was more than sufficient to move blocks. The treasures inside were, indeed, fascinating ... but they also could have turned out to be Al Capone's Vault.



    That's my worry, that something magical in our imaginations will just end up as crass CGI. Jackson's LoTR could have ended up the same way, as well, and he did a decent job of it so here's hoping this crew can at least match that. The animated LoTR is still my favorite and likely always will be.



    I know these shows are supposed to be fantastic, but they just don't seem like my kind of thing. Real world drama just doesn't do it for me.
    Lots of people still do think pyramids are magical... When I visited the pyramids in Gizeh last year some guy asked my wife and I to take a picture of him sitting in the sarcophagus because it has "healing powers". We refused.

    I'm fairly sure there's a large overlap between those people and the "crystals have healing powers" crowd.

  9. #3029
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Yes. We know. Everyone knows.

    They just don't give a shit.


    And it's pointless and trivial, but sure, you do you I guess?


    I think there might be a difference between "let's put black dwarves in the original narrative" and "the original narrative still works even if the dwarves were black".

    One might also point out that the original narrative definitely doesn't say dwarves AREN'T black. For all that's worth (see above).


    Those are not the same thing.


    I think you confuse something. I didn't say it BOTHERS me, I said I don't give a shit what the original does or doesn't say about skin color UNLESS there's a good reason to.

    What BOTHERS me is people using "but but but originaaaaal!" as a smokescreen for their obvious racism.
    You gotta stop quoting the wrong people, especially when you accidentally quote me instead of one of the not-so-subtle racist dogwhistlers over here.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #3030
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You gotta stop quoting the wrong people, especially when you accidentally quote me instead of one of the not-so-subtle racist dogwhistlers over here.
    My apologies, I've corrected the post in question.

  11. #3031
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    My apologies, I've corrected the post in question.
    Thanks. Some of the people in this thread are... something else. Simultaneously whining that everyone is offended by everything, while having an absolute meltdown over the skin color of a fictional character of a fictional race in a fictional world.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #3032

  13. #3033
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    And to add THIS to the mix - as its sideways related:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/embr...-property.html

    (its CNBC but if you type in "New Tolkien Rights" or "Embracer Group" into google you'll get other articles from other sites if that one isn't working for someone.)
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  14. #3034
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    And to add THIS to the mix - as its sideways related:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/18/embr...-property.html

    (its CNBC but if you type in "New Tolkien Rights" or "Embracer Group" into google you'll get other articles from other sites if that one isn't working for someone.)
    Interesting news.

    I don't think this will have a big impact on RoP's liscence though, since Amazon has been rumored to have 5 seasons planned and it is probably part of the $250 million liscencing deal. This is just a change of rights holder, and it will probably be a few years out before we hear how the handover will impact the current (and near-future) projects and their liscencing deals.

  15. #3035
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Lots of people still do think pyramids are magical... When I visited the pyramids in Gizeh last year some guy asked my wife and I to take a picture of him sitting in the sarcophagus because it has "healing powers". We refused.
    Maybe he's just a big fan of Stargate.

  16. #3036
    Out of curiosity, what's so hard to simply say something to the effects of: "Yes, it's very odd that there is so much mixed-race diversity in the show. It would make more sense, at the very least, for everyone to have similar physical traits within the same fictional race at the very least, even if not every race sharing the same traits. But it doesn't really matter to me and I'm okay with them choosing whichever actors they felt played the role best despite that. At least they're not trying to whitewash everything like Hollywood traditionally has done." You know instead of screaming "racist!!!!" at everyone raising a brow at it and then coming up with the most BS reasons to rationalize it, all while acting like you're on the highest of horses.

    Again, admittedly, there are way too many racists in the thread that deserve to be called out. But the majority of people discussing the topic are pointing out how, rightly, it does not make sense given the context of the show, the isolation of its people, and real world analogies.

  17. #3037
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Out of curiosity, what's so hard to simply say something to the effects of: "Yes, it's very odd that there is so much mixed-race diversity in the show. It would make more sense, at the very least, for everyone to have similar physical traits within the same fictional race at the very least, even if not every race sharing the same traits. But it doesn't really matter to me and I'm okay with them choosing whichever actors they felt played the role best despite that. At least they're not trying to whitewash everything like Hollywood traditionally has done." You know instead of screaming "racist!!!!" at everyone raising a brow at it and then coming up with the most BS reasons to rationalize it, all while acting like you're on the highest of horses.

    Again, admittedly, there are way too many racists in the thread that deserve to be called out. But the majority of people discussing the topic are pointing out how, rightly, it does not make sense given the context of the show, the isolation of its people, and real world analogies.
    You can't have a centrist opinion in the eyes of certain people here. Even if you support the casting choices in Rings of Power, if you express any preference to the Peter Jackson adaptations they'll consider you a filthy racist dogwhistler.

  18. #3038
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Out of curiosity, what's so hard to simply say something to the effects of: "Yes, it's very odd that there is so much mixed-race diversity in the show. It would make more sense, at the very least, for everyone to have similar physical traits within the same fictional race at the very least, even if not every race sharing the same traits. But it doesn't really matter to me and I'm okay with them choosing whichever actors they felt played the role best despite that. At least they're not trying to whitewash everything like Hollywood traditionally has done." You know instead of screaming "racist!!!!" at everyone raising a brow at it and then coming up with the most BS reasons to rationalize it, all while acting like you're on the highest of horses.

    Again, admittedly, there are way too many racists in the thread that deserve to be called out. But the majority of people discussing the topic are pointing out how, rightly, it does not make sense given the context of the show, the isolation of its people, and real world analogies.
    While I have uttered the exact sentiment you described here, you do get out of a discussion what you put into it. If someone goes into the discussion with “it’s gonna be shit because black people” then my feelings on the matter are irrelevant. That person is just a racist.

    I have had very nuanced discussions about this in this very topic though, with people who gave arguments about why they dislike the castings.

  19. #3039
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Maybe he's just a big fan of Stargate.
    That WOULD explain things. In SG the sarcophagus is, after all, known to cause irrational behavior in humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    Out of curiosity, what's so hard to simply say something to the effects of: "Yes, it's very odd that there is so much mixed-race diversity in the show. It would make more sense, at the very least, for everyone to have similar physical traits within the same fictional race at the very least, even if not every race sharing the same traits.
    I get what you're driving at, but I thought this part needs a bit more talking-about. Part of the problem is exactly the fact that we've been conditioned by the depictions in media to go "everyone within a race needs to look very similar" - and I'm not talking number of arms and legs levels here, but so similar they might as well be siblings. That's done to create a kind of aesthetic cohesion that makes it immediately obvious who belong with whom, but it has the side effect of suggesting a kind of uniformity that is neither realistic nor particularly sensible in a time where diversity is increasingly turning from a signifier of distrust and confusion to something quotidian.

    Just look at humans as a species. Variation is ENORMOUS between human individuals, and it's practically never that diverse in depictions of fictional races, many of which are effectively just visual clones of each other (often because it's cheaper to do in production).

    I'm not saying that every fictional race needs to work or look like RL humans, of course, but the idea that "they should all look very similar" is mostly a tradition and convenience, not some kind of diegetic constraint we have to accept.

    You're absolutely right on the other part, though: just accepting that this is an actor playing a role and judging it based on how well they do that rather than on what color their skin happens to be (and the same goes for many other characteristics) is absolutely something we should get more used to. Funnily enough - and as a bit of a paradox - audiences used to do exactly that in the days when everyone on stage was just a white male. They just suspended their disbelief that this GUY in a dress wasn't really a woman, or that this white dude with soot on their face wasn't really a moor, and took the role as it was. That had other problems of course (big ones), but it also showed that the demands of drama really center on the audience participating in the illusion to some extent, and focusing on what's important: the story being told. I guess in a way we've gone full circle.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2022-08-18 at 09:06 PM.

  20. #3040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That would be quite a twist of interpretation to imply that though.

    I could make the same argument that we don't know if Tolkien intended to Dwarves to be Blue skinned because he wasn't specific, but we know from the overall narrative that this wouldn't be the case because if they were blue skinned, he would make the effort of going out of his way to describe them being blue. And narratively speaking, the Hobbits would make mention of skin tones that so wildly differ from their own.

    That the Hobbits and the overall narrative doesn't differentiate Dwarves in a major way from the Hobbits who percieve them informs us that they would have been a skin tone that Hobbits would consider familiar and normal. So we can gather that the Dwarves wouldn't have had a skin tone that was that much different from that of a Hobbit's expectations, otherwise it would have been worth noting as much as is described of any general feature that seemed outstanding to a Hobbit (thick beards, big noses, dark hair, broader physiques, etc).

    IMO, brown skin would be quite exotic to the Hobbits. So even though we don't know the true skin color of Dwarves, it's reasonable to assume it would be white (or variation of) because of the lack of description.

    Even Harfoots in the appendices are mentioned to be 'browner of skin' than the Hobbits, and if such a detail is recorded then I can't imagine Dwarves being omitted from having a similar detailing if they were meant to have darker skin tones than that of Hobbits.


    Since Dwarves were the creation of Aulë from the stone of the earth, we could assume they came in all sorts of colors that stone comes in. But if such a detail were so important, one could question why this was never elaborated on, especially in the eyes of the narrators.
    But there are literally brown skinned hobbits (or harfoots or whatever) in RoP so brown skinned dwarfes would also be "normal" for hobbits. And if it's normal there is literally no reason to "elaborate on it in the eyes of the narrators".

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