Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lady Atia]

No it means it was important to choose certain actors because of their skin color as obviously certain roles in certain stories are not open to anybody with any skin color. A movie or television studio using the casting process to justify changing how a particular character looks from a different form of media is making a conscious decision in opening the role to actors of various complexions, genders and backgrounds. There is nothing inherently 'racist' about casting if you say you are looking for a 20 to 30 year old male, medium build of European descent or white. That is normal in entertainment and happens every day. All casting calls are not open to everybody, no matter how some of you like to pretend everything should be open to everybody. It has never been like that and never will be like that. So it is up to a studio as to whether they want to open up specific roles to a wider casting process. It is a conscious decision either way.


I am specifically addressing the things said by the showrunners and actors themselves who said that 'diversity' was required in order to bring this story into the modern world and therefore 'improve' it. Again, all of this is a conscious decision and only reflects the mindset at Amazon studios and their producers not any specific group of people because I do not remember any "black lives matters" protests claiming to be out in the streets because of 'representation' in JRR Tolkien. So them claiming all these changes were required are both saying that Tolkien was racist for not including enough diversity in certain parts of the story and therefore not a 'good story'. By your logic making a live action version of Akira is justified in changing the setting from Tolkyo to NYC, like they were talking of doing, which is just as stupid and dumb.



It is not stupid because no author is under any obligation to 'represent' any specific group of people whether it be based on skin color, disability status, gender, sexual orientation or any other such characteristics. Artistic freedom means the right to create what ever you want without being pressured or forced to change it for any reason. The only thing an author is obligated to represent is the ideas from their imagination. What people like you are saying is that because live action adaptations involve jobs and roles for people working in real life, that those stories can and should be subject to dictates and mandates that have absolutely nothing to do with the creative process for the purposes of not discriminating against anybody. But while discrimination in employment based on superficial characteristics should never be tolerated, that does not mean injecting a quota system into the creative process and remove the artistic freedom from the process. All of that process of quotas is something coming from studios not the original creators themselves who are no obligated to follow them. If a writer wants to make a story about all white people. Fine. If a writer wants to make a story about all black people, asian people, Indian people, that is also fine. None of that is 'racist' and biology isn't racist either.


No it is because of the reality that human societies around the world in history have never been melting pots. China is mostly Chinese, India is mostly Indian, Japan is mostly Japanese, Africa is mostly African. Technically the only places where there are melting pots are those places invaded and colonized by Europeans who then implemented selective immigration policies(quotas) preferring Europeans over natives another populations. Which is why these discussions are even happening in the first place, but that history of colonization doesn't change the fact that most human societies in history, whether European or otherwise were homogenous. Vikings, Welsh, Norse, Scottish and other groups were not melting pots of Africans, Asians, Native Americans and Europeans in history prior to 1000 years ago. And the history of mistreatment of Africans is because they were not indigenous black Europeans. Which means there is no absolute reason for any fictional story to be a melting pot either as that is not the 'rule' in reality either. Therefore injecting Africans into European history as if they represent the diversity of 'indigenous' Europeans historically is nonsense in general. If someone wants to make a high fantasy story that represents a melting pot of various species that are very diverse then make one, but changing existing stories to force that diversity goes against creative freedom and rarely makes the original story any better. Just take WOW as a perfect example. All Elves don't look alike and there is no 'melting pot' Elven society. Every group of elves is homogenous. Night elves all look the same. Void Elves all look the same. etc. Orcs all look the same and so forth. There are no grey, brown, and tan Orcs.


Tolkien was writing a story and under no obligation to include any particular form of diversity according to any mandates for inclusion and representation. Creative freedom means being able to create whatever you want based on your on imagination and talent, not following mandates for diversity and inclusion. If someone wants to create a world that is a melting pot of diversity among all groups then they can certainly do it, but that doesn't mean trying to force that kind of melting pot diversity into something that doesn't already have it. All of that is purely up to the studio and whether they have it as a priority and we know that Amazon studios absolutely has a diversity and inclusion policy for their shows. That has absolutely nothing to do with any particular story or creator and is simply a quota system.


I was not talking about Aragorn specifically and you included him in this discussion.


Tolkien's own words said he did not want his story to be told be consistent and not have multiple different 'interpretations' varying in scope and character from what he wrote. And Christopher Tolkien was very much following his fathers wishes, which is why it wasn't until after he died that Amazon got the rights to do this TV show. Simon Tolkien is now working with Amazon and has always had a very different opinion from his father and his brother on whether studious should be able to deviate from his fathers work. And that is how this show came to be, which means that the Estate itself is changing as time goes on.


And that is objectively false, because China and India make up the largest percentage of human diversity on earth, yet there are no Chinese in this show in any prominent roles. Tolkien was not writing his story to reflect a modern melting pot and there is no reason to include it other than studio mandates. And Tolkien as an author is not subject to those mandates and therefore doing this is not part of canon and simply irrelevant to the lore of what he actually wrote. So if some Asian studio decides to do Tolkien with all Asians then that is fine, because that too reflects the modern world, but it still isn't Tolkien.


The point is if the studio wanted those kinds of actors in the story to represent the modern world, they would have found actors fitting that background. So it is not a reflection of "the modern world". The modern world has all those groups of people and yet this show doesn't include them, so the statement is false advertising. No Chinese. No Indians, No Pakistanis and those groups are all part of the "modern world". Which means they just made up these decisions on their own as a studio for the purposes of including some black people in order to address historic racism against black people. But Tolkien was not writing his story to be racist against black people. So to argue that including them was necessary is to claim Tolkien was racist.

Hahahaha it's funny how you can't even get your wow lore straight. There are, in fact, brown and grey Orcs in WoW and they also added black skin to the Blood and Void Elves. Same goes for WoW's dwarves and humans btw. Oh and, starting with Dragonflight, Silvermoon and Suramar will be one nation and a melting pot for their societies as their leaders are married now. Honestly, all I get out of your huge wall of text is that in fact, you have a problem with black actors used in a fantasy movie.

[InfiniteCharger]

Hahahaha it's funny how you can't even get your wow lore straight. There are, in fact, brown and grey Orcs in WoW and they also added black skin to the Blood and Void Elves. Same goes for WoW's dwarves and humans btw. Oh and, starting with Dragonflight, Silvermoon and Suramar will be one nation and a melting pot for their societies as their leaders are married now. Honestly, all I get out of your huge wall of text is that in fact, you have a problem with black actors used in a fantasy movie.

The point was that each of those groups of elves were homogenous. Night Elves were homogenous. Blood Elves were homogenous. Nightborne were homogenous. Just like all Orcs prior to Mannoroth were brown and afterwards were all Green and homogenous. These weren't melting pots is the point. Now that all these years have passed some of the elven groups are starting to mix but that is only a recent occurrence. And this was using WOW just to show that the idea diversity in a story requiring 'melting pots' is not accurate. Just like the MMO genre and D&D before that often has diversity in the form of different homogenous cultures and societies because it is the world building that goes into defining those distinct cultures, languages and variations in species and appearance that makes the world diverse to begin with. Versus just randomly scaterring a general set of features among every population with no distinction in culture, language, tradition, etc. A lot of that world building is a direct legacy of Tolkien.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I will go into episode 1 turning my brain off, trying not to think about the lore abortions, and just try to enjoy the spectacle. This is like the most expensive TV production ever, right? Surely the producers know how to retain audience interest. Hopefully it will have more spectacle than the first two episodes of House of the Dragons did.

[loras]

So is it any good?
I've some distaste for "woke" stuff, but mostly for its deleterious effects on quality, did they manage to avoid that pitfall or is it as bad as it some expected it to be?
I'll pirate it in due time if it's promising enough, but i haven't the time nor inclination yet to make an attempt, so figured i'd ask here.

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The point was that each of those groups of elves were homogenous. Night Elves were homogenous. Blood Elves were homogenous. Nightborne were homogenous. Just like all Orcs prior to Mannoroth were brown and afterwards were all Green and homogenous. These weren't melting pots is the point. Now that all these years have passed some of the elven groups are starting to mix but that is only a recent occurrence. And this was using WOW just to show that the idea diversity in a story requiring 'melting pots' is not accurate. Just like the MMO genre and D&D before that often has diversity in the form of different homogenous cultures and societies because it is the world building that goes into defining those distinct cultures, languages and variations in species and appearance that makes the world diverse to begin with. Versus just randomly scaterring a general set of features among every population with no distinction in culture, language, tradition, etc. A lot of that world building is a direct legacy of Tolkien.

Black elves are just animated chocolate constructs.

[Romanthony]

Ive seen some of the "Real" reviews now that th Emborgo has lifted and YIKES

One good example of it, Would be the news outlet, Entertainment Weekly for for Months leading up to the release of the show was heavily promating it, they even had exclussives and what not, Like you would think that these people would Paint the show in a postive light due to how hard they was pushing it

https://ew.com/tv/tv-reviews/lord-of...-power-amazon/ Boy was we wrong. Sounds like the show is all over the place

One scene that was called into question was when Galadriel is 1 v 1ing a troll. But because they want to market this for kids, there is no blood what so ever and then in the very next scene, the Hobbit knock offs, fighting a orc slitting his throat, impaling him ona spear, then hanging up and bathign in there blood like what?

[InfiniteCharger]

So is it any good?
I've some distaste for "woke" stuff, but mostly for its deleterious effects on quality, did they manage to avoid that pitfall or is it as bad as it some expected it to be?
I'll pirate it in due time if it's promising enough, but i haven't the time nor inclination yet to make an attempt, so figured i'd ask here.

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Black elves are just animated chocolate constructs.

What black elves are you talking about in WOW? Night Elves in Wow descend from Trolls who generally were pinkish purple and thus most Night elves are purple to pink with other elves being pale as in "high elves" with blonde hair.

[Lady Atia]

What black elves are you talking about in WOW? Night Elves in Wow descend from Trolls who generally were pinkish purple and thus most Night elves are purple to pink with other elves being pale as in "high elves" with blonde hair.

Ehm .... when was the last time you played wow?

[tikcol]

It began with the forging of the great films. Threads were given by Tolkien, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Rights were granted to Jackson, great miner and craftsman of the mountain of lore. And nine, nine hours were gifted to the race of men, who above all else, desire quality. But they were all of them deceived, for another show was made. In the land of Amazon, in the fires of Mount Prime, the Dark Lord Bezos forged in secret a master flop. And into this show he poured his money, his greed and his will to dominate all film. One show to ruin them all

So I guess this is a lore accurate prequel after all

[InfiniteCharger]

Ehm .... when was the last time you played wow?

And? What does that have to do with each group of Elves being homogenous for most of the history of the game from Night elves and Blood Elves, to Night Borne and Void elves. There were no mixed populations of Night elves, blood elves and Nightborne in the Lore of the game itself. This has absolutely nothing to do with "black" skinned elves as an option in the character customization screen. "Night" elves and even furthere "Night"borne are the dark skinned elves in the lore and have always been there.

[Lady Atia]

And? What does that have to do with each group of Elves being homogenous for most of the history of the game from Night elves and Blood Elves, to Night Borne and Void elves. There were no mixed populations of Night elves, blood elves and Nightborne in the Lore of the game itself. This has absolutely nothing to do with "black" skinned elves as an option in the character customization screen.

And now, where is the problem with "black" skinned elves as an option in the show? There is literally no difference here lol. Black skinned elves in LOTR are not black because they fucked with Haradrim or something ...

[loras]

What black elves are you talking about in WOW? Night Elves in Wow descend from Trolls who generally were pinkish purple and thus most Night elves are purple to pink with other elves being pale as in "high elves" with blonde hair.

You can now make brown blood elves that look kinda weird in the whole setting, hence the joke.

[InfiniteCharger]

And now, where is the problem with "black" skinned elves as an option in the show? There is literally no difference here lol. Black skinned elves in LOTR are not black because they fucked with Haradrim or something ...

I wastn't talking about black skinned elves in the first place versus how different populations of elves were homogenous.
You introducing this topic is irrelevant to the point as these things are only a couple years old and introduced much later.

And what does "black" have to do with this fantasy species? They aren't humans to begin with and if they are "jet black", is that supposed to represent "real world' diversity? Where are the real world 8 foot elves with long ears in real life? "Night" elves were always the 'dark' version of elves from day one. Followed on by the "night" borne who are even darker. So what are you even talking about? The diversity was always there it is just that each group of elves were homogenous and separate from other groups of elves.


Wow has always unique in their depiction of elves in colors that are not similar to humans. This discussion is stupid and insane. It is fantasy and as such fantasy creatures don't have to be llimited to human like skin colors just like the "trolls" animated franchise shows clearly and in that there are no melting pots of different troll breeds either (based on musical styles). You are missing the point completely.

And again, there is no requirement for Tolkien or any other author to include any specific population of any specific background to tick a diversity check box.

[Skulltaker]

And now, where is the problem with "black" skinned elves as an option in the show? There is literally no difference here lol. Black skinned elves in LOTR are not black because they fucked with Haradrim or something ...

My question would be 'why are they black'?

[Skulltaker]

Why does it matter?

I'd like to know, that's all. Why did this interpretation of Tolkiens work decide to deviate from the previous ones? And also, what's the reason behind making some of them black? Or, for completeness, any ethnic background.

Blizzard 'did it to Elves' to diversify. Which is fine, because people should create avatars they can identify with. What's the reason here?

[rogoth]

Same. Nothing more nothing less. There is no lore reason. There is delibaretly no justification from the creators because it is not needed. Just white tv-shows are gone unless they are actuall historic stories. Like The Queen or stuff like that.
But fiction will never be all white anymore. Its fiction in the first place so it doesn't matter EXPECIALLY fantasy.

People can either get used to it or... well don't watch it anymore. No matter what people on the internet talk themselves into. The vast majorit doesn't care that some characters are now played by black actors. No matter right or left. It is a nonissue primarily discussed in the internet.

We had the complete movie industrie since its conception basically while at the same time the western world had is the most diverse part of the world (compared to india, china, africa)
Not moving away from an all white movie industry is just unrealistic and honestly bad buisness.

so we should expect the next black panther movie to have an all white cast based on this asinine ideology?, or how about they do a historical piece on the american civil war where the south wants to keep its slaves, but the slaves are all white people and the ruling class are all black, because apparently none of this kind of thing matters to you so lets just change everything for the sake of change and to insert race/gender politics into every single piece of media that exists moving forward right?, or how about this one, why not have every single person in the show a different colour that way anybody anywhere, whether they be terran or alien alike can identify with the show on a 'spiritual level' and no-one gets left out of their representation?, that's what you're arguing here right?

[InfiniteCharger]

This diversity and inclusion mandate nonsense is of limited value in this day and age of a global entertainment industry when you can see entertainment from around the world that is unique to different cultures. You aren't going to please everybody to begin with. As an example, how long have non European countries been watching European or American movies and TV shows and liking them even without any "representation"? Not to mention, how is including a few black people fixing that? That does not represent the diversity of the earths' population. And in all of this African history and culture is still not getting any representation at all. At the end of the day this idea of Africans or black people being equally indigenous to Europe or a European like setting but without referencing or including any sort of African culture or historical reference is just jarringly stupid. As if Africa doesn't exist in history and mythology at all. That is what is missing even in this 'global' age of entertainment where anybody can watch shows with all Asians or all Mexicans, but somehow all African shows are missing. You arent fixing that by inserting random black people into stories obviously set in or based on historic or ancient Europe. That doesn't even make sense and actually is racist in implying that Africans have nothing of value to put on screen to begin with.


There is no Africa in Middle Earth. There is no Iran in Middle Earth. There is no Puerto Rico in Middle Earth. None of those are supposed to be a significant aspect of the lore of Middle Earth. That doesn't mean that Iran doesn't have a lore or history of its own. The word "magic" comes from Magi who historically were Persians. One of the head writers of WOW was an Iranian. Africa has always had various mythologies including dwarves, nature magic, geomancy and other things. And there are various African elements even in WOW. Puerto Rico has many various traditions from Native Americans, Africa and Europe which has influenced its mythology and culture. And you see this blend in WOW with the Troll dancing and cities. Along with the various other traditions that influenced many other aspects of the game.

[Dhrizzle]

It's the showrunners own words...

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...ies-first-look

Amazon’s series will also broaden the notion of who shares the world of Middle-earth. One original story line centers on a silvan elf named Arondir, played by Ismael Cruz Córdova, who will be the first person of color to play an elf onscreen in a Tolkien project. He is involved in a forbidden relationship with Bronwyn, a human village healer played by Nazanin Boniadi, a British actor of Iranian heritage. Elsewhere, a Brit of Jamaican descent, Sir Lenny Henry, plays a harfoot elder, and Sophia Nomvete has a scene-stealing role as a dwarven princess named Disa—the latter being the first Black woman to play a dwarf in a Lord of the Rings movie, as well as the first female dwarf. “It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” says Lindsey Weber, executive producer of the series.

Meaning that a crowd of people in their show will resemble a crowd of people in real life. It doesn't mean the lands of Middle-earth are being represented as capitalist democracies with lingering issues around racism and sexism stemming from historic injustices.

[Specialka]

Same. Nothing more nothing less. There is no lore reason. There is delibaretly no justification from the creators because it is not needed. Just white tv-shows are gone unless they are actuall historic stories. Like The Queen or stuff like that.
But fiction will never be all white anymore. Its fiction in the first place so it doesn't matter EXPECIALLY fantasy.

People can either get used to it or... well don't watch it anymore. No matter what people on the internet talk themselves into. The vast majorit doesn't care that some characters are now played by black actors. No matter right or left. It is a nonissue primarily discussed in the internet.

We had the complete movie industrie since its conception basically while at the same time the western world had is the most diverse part of the world (compared to india, china, africa)
Not moving away from an all white movie industry is just unrealistic and honestly bad buisness.

So you are saying all this is political agenda being pushed ?

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Meaning that a crowd of people in their show will resemble a crowd of people in real life. It doesn't mean the lands of Middle-earth are being represented as capitalist democracies with lingering issues around racism and sexism stemming from historic injustices.

Why stop there though ?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This diversity and inclusion mandate nonsense is of limited value in this day and age of a global entertainment industry when you can see entertainment from around the world that is unique to different cultures. You aren't going to please everybody to begin with. As an example, how long have non European countries been watching European or American movies and TV shows and liking them even without any "representation"? Not to mention, how is including a few black people fixing that? That does not represent the diversity of the earths' population. And in all of this African history and culture is still not getting any representation at all. At the end of the day this idea of Africans or black people being equally indigenous to Europe or a European like setting but without referencing or including any sort of African culture or historical reference is just jarringly stupid. As if Africa doesn't exist in history and mythology at all. That is what is missing even in this 'global' age of entertainment where anybody can watch shows with all Asians or all Mexicans, but somehow all African shows are missing. You arent fixing that by inserting random black people into stories obviously set in or based on historic or ancient Europe. That doesn't even make sense and actually is racist in implying that Africans have nothing of value to put on screen to begin with.


There is no Africa in Middle Earth. There is no Iran in Middle Earth. There is no Puerto Rico in Middle Earth. None of those are supposed to be a significant aspect of the lore of Middle Earth. That doesn't mean that Iran doesn't have a lore or history of its own. The word "magic" comes from Magi who historically were Persians. One of the head writers of WOW was an Iranian. Africa has always had various mythologies including dwarves, nature magic, geomancy and other things. And there are various African elements even in WOW. Puerto Rico has many various traditions from Native Americans, Africa and Europe which has influenced its mythology and culture. And you see this blend in WOW with the Troll dancing and cities. Along with the various other traditions that influenced many other aspects of the game.

In the interview with Tolkien which I think you linked he says that the trees are based on the east from Alexander the Great story’s, Alexander the Great notable went to Egypt and Western Asia which includes Iran.

So middle earth explicitly pulls from Africa and if not Iran it self the area around it as per Tolkien’s own words.

[Dhrizzle]

No it means it was important to choose certain actors because of their skin color

Can you show me where anyone involved with the show said they chose a particular actor for their skin colour and not acting ability?

I am specifically addressing the things said by the showrunners and actors themselves who said that 'diversity' was required in order to bring this story into the modern world and therefore 'improve' it.

Can you show me where anyone involved with the show said that skin colour was going to have an effect on the story? Not diversity as pretty much the whole point of LotR and other stories is "diversity is strength."

It is not stupid...

Yes it is.

No it is because of the reality...

It's a very simple test - does a character's skin colour have any bearing on the story? If yes then cast someone with the correct skin colour. If no then cast whichever actor seems best for the role. If skin colour is irrelevant then it isn't "changing the story" it's just changing the aesthetics. Ultimately having a dark-skinned actor is no more significant than showing Aragorn and Boromir with beards, or putting the men of Gondor in plate armour instead of mail.

Tolkien was writing a story and under no obligation to include any particular form of diversity according to any mandates for inclusion and representation. Creative freedom means being able to create whatever you want based on your on imagination and talent, not following mandates for diversity and inclusion. If someone wants to create a world that is a melting pot of diversity among all groups then they can certainly do it, but that doesn't mean trying to force that kind of melting pot diversity into something that doesn't already have it. All of that is purely up to the studio and whether they have it as a priority and we know that Amazon studios absolutely has a diversity and inclusion policy for their shows. That has absolutely nothing to do with any particular story or creator and is simply a quota system.

You should check the "quota system" you are talking about, it isn't anywhere near as binding as you seem to think it is especially for actors appearing in front of the camera.

I was not talking about Aragorn specifically and you included him in this discussion.

I was talking about Aragorn because he is a very solid example of a character who was changed for a screen adaptation (the LotR trilogy directed by Peter Jackson) that went on to be massively successful, which by your argument has set a precedent for other producers making changes.

Tolkien's own words said he did not want his story to be told be consistent and not have multiple different 'interpretations' varying in scope and character from what he wrote.

Yeah but Tolkien only actually released the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings as finished pieces (and the Hobbit was retconned in after LotR was released.) Everything else he wrote has multiple iterations in his notes and letters.

And Christopher Tolkien was very much following his fathers wishes, which is why it wasn't until after he died that Amazon got the rights to do this TV show.

That's isn't altogether correct, Christopher Tolkien died two years after Amazon acquired the rights to make a Tolkien series.

Simon Tolkien is now working with Amazon and has always had a very different opinion from his father and his brother on whether studious should be able to deviate from his fathers work. And that is how this show came to be, which means that the Estate itself is changing as time goes on.

Simon Tolkien is Christopher Tolkien's son, JRR's grandson.

And that is objectively false, because China and India make up the largest percentage of human diversity on earth, yet there are no Chinese in this show in any prominent roles. Tolkien was not writing his story to reflect a modern melting pot and there is no reason to include it other than studio mandates. And Tolkien as an author is not subject to those mandates and therefore doing this is not part of canon and simply irrelevant to the lore of what he actually wrote. So if some Asian studio decides to do Tolkien with all Asians then that is fine, because that too reflects the modern world, but it still isn't Tolkien.

How many Chinese and Indian actors applied to appear in Rings of Power though? You seem to think a casting call went out for black people to play a particular role and believe they should have made a 90s style rainbow casting where boxes are checked. Isn't it perfectly possible that they just asked for people to play elves and some of them had darker skin? Also the studio mandate is a myth.

The point is if the studio wanted those kinds of actors in the story to represent the modern world, they would have found actors fitting that background. So it is not a reflection of "the modern world". The modern world has all those groups of people and yet this show doesn't include them, so the statement is false advertising. No Chinese. No Indians, No Pakistanis and those groups are all part of the "modern world". Which means they just made up these decisions on their own as a studio for the purposes of including some black people in order to address historic racism against black people. But Tolkien was not writing his story to be racist against black people. So to argue that including them was necessary is to claim Tolkien was racist.

The mental gymnastics you're pulling here are astounding. One group of people deciding that skin colour is not a reason to deny people the opportunity to play particular roles is not calling an author racist for writing about particular features in a group of characters. Surely the fact they feel comfortable adapting his work with a more diverse array of skin tones shows they don't think he was racists as skin colour is incidental to the characters and the stories.