Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Biomega]

And the stranger has to be Sauron or Morgoth/Melkor.
Would be way too early for an Istari.

It's almost guaranteed to be Gandalf. He was sent to aid Middle Earth against Sauron's reemerging power, which falls into what the show is portraying; he was reluctant to go, stating he was afraid of Sauron and weak; he took the form of an old man from the beginning to show humility; and he is strongly associated with fire (the "Secret Fire" of Eru Ilúvatar, and later the bearer of Narya, the Ring of Fire). He's even demonstrated his aptitude to talk to insects in the Jackson movies, in almost the EXACT SAME WAY as the Stranger talks to the fireflies.

Those are all perfect fits. Whereas for him to be either Sauron or Melkor, there'd have to be massive changes to the entire established lore.

[Kumorii]

It's almost guaranteed to be Gandalf. He was sent to aid Middle Earth against Sauron's reemerging power, which falls into what the show is portraying; he was reluctant to go, stating he was afraid of Sauron and weak; he took the form of an old man from the beginning to show humility; and he is strongly associated with fire (the "Secret Fire" of Eru Ilúvatar, and later the bearer of Narya, the Ring of Fire). He's even demonstrated his aptitude to talk to insects in the Jackson movies, in almost the EXACT SAME WAY as the Stranger talks to the fireflies.

Those are all perfect fits. Whereas for him to be either Sauron or Melkor, there'd have to be massive changes to the entire established lore.

Wouldn't that need to be the case for Gandalf? From what I've gathered he went to Middle Earth during the third age.

I still think it is Gandalf, because they already change things like hobbits for example, but that means they could also change it to be anyone really. But they are really going into the Gandalf look, so if they bait and switch it just feels like deliberate bait and switch for the audience.

[Triceron]

Doesn't have to ONLY be practical. You think those breastplate decorations are practical? Very clearly elves care about aesthetics as well, so it would make total sense that their haircuts would reflect that, too. And remember: this is magical stuff at work. They can hammer out crystals of light, they can snip-snap a fade haircut with mithril shears and 2,000 years of barber experience like THAT.

If we're talking about appeal, then that's a whole different story.

No offense to those who like the look, but a buzzcut is generally chosen for its practicality than for its aesthetics. We see plenty of Elves with short hair in this series, there's a certain look they seem to go for that I'd agree with them being both practical and establishes the Elf aesthetic. Arondir happens to be the only one with a tight buzzcut.

If we're talking about Elves caring about aesthetics and having magical scissors and barbers with 2000 years of experience, then I don't see a reason why Arondir would settle with a buzzcut with a fade. It still wouldn't make sense to me. I can see from a 'directors' point of view that maybe they wanted him to stand out from the rest with a completely different aesthetic and look, but it's for this reason that it's also odd that it differs so dramatically from the Elf aesthetic they're setting with the rest of the short haired looks.

[InfiniteCharger]

Reviewing it as 0/10 or 1/10 in bad faith is also manipulating the rating. What would your solution to that be? They're trying to purge "fake" reviews, but obviously trying to apply an objective lens to what's a fake review vs. a genuine one is impossible, so they have to pick a number to purge from. And because this has happened before, trolls have given slightly higher scores, like a 2/10, to get past these purges. It's an arms race to try and reflect the reality of the reviews. I think purging 5 and lower is probably a bridge too far, but there's no good solution.

Or, since you agree with the deliberate tanking of the rating, do you find those valid?

The 0 or 1 out of 10 ratings are from people who actually really hate the idea that this big company thought they could use their money to buy one of the most well known works of modern fiction and butcher it. That is an honest review. This story has been known around the world for over 60 years as one of the best works of English fiction written in the modern era that influenced a whole genre of writers and creators in books, television, movies and games. No I don't think those are all dishonest reviews.

On the other hand, there are people who legitimately believe that Tolkien is no more special than any other IP and is just a story with no particular importance or meaning. To them it is just a TV show and deserves to exist and they may believe it is unfair to judge it beyond that. So for them the fact that Amazon spent all that money and produced something in the first place for this IP is all that is required to get a 10 rating. Therefore some of those are also honest ratings. Everybody isn't a lore nerd.

[tikcol]

Reviewing it as 0/10 or 1/10 in bad faith is also manipulating the rating. What would your solution to that be? They're trying to purge "fake" reviews, but obviously trying to apply an objective lens to what's a fake review vs. a genuine one is impossible, so they have to pick a number to purge from. And because this has happened before, trolls have given slightly higher scores, like a 2/10, to get past these purges. It's an arms race to try and reflect the reality of the reviews. I think purging 5 and lower is probably a bridge too far, but there's no good solution.

Or, since you agree with the deliberate tanking of the rating, do you find those valid?

10/10 ratings aren't disingenuous? Because there are more of those than 1/10 ratings by a substancial margin. I can only assume deliberatly inflating the rating is valid for you.

Curiously out of the first 3k votes, 2k of them were 10/10 on imdb.

[PACOX]

I didn't notice it but according to reddit you can see Mount Doom in the background of the human settlement. Kind of dope.

[Triceron]

I didn't notice it but according to reddit you can see Mount Doom in the background of the human settlement. Kind of dope.

So are the Southlands supposed to be a pre-corrupted Mordor or something?

[Skulltaker]

Watched the first Episode. It was okay. The sets and armour look weirdly cheap here and there, though, or rather fake. Might just be a lack of suspension of disbelief.

The actors played their parts well. I'm still not on board with short-haired Elves, but that discussion leads nowhere.

The bullying Elven Kids at the beginning was complete bullshit. These are Elves that don't know suffering, want, or death. No reason for them to be dicks. And no, Kids won't be Kids. These are elves.
The humans, even if descended from Followers of Morgoth, being rude to the Elves, calling them Knifeears and Pointyears felt very un-Tolkien to me. The exchange between Arondir and his fellow Elven Warrior that ended in 'You smell like rotten leaves' was terrible too.

I'm also not on board with the depiction of Elven warriors aside the A-Team. That's something that the movies didn't get right either... showed Elves at the same level as Orcs and uruk-hai. They come of way to weak compared to humans.

I'm curious to see where it leads.

So are the Southlands supposed to be a pre-corrupted Mordor or something?

At least from the map they showed it should be the region directly north of Mordor, with the towering mountain range 'to the right' bein the Ash mountains, Ered Lithuin. Although there shouldn't be any mountains 'to the left', so the valley where the human settlement is could be the valley of Udun, and would put Arondir's Garrison roughly where the Black Gate will be.

[Godric]

Just finished the first two episodes. Are these elven men supposed to not be very pretty in this show? I don’t want to call them ugly but they certainly don’t look like any elves I would have imagined being in Tolkien’s world.

The hair is ridiculous too lol. Elrond’s cracked me up.

[s_bushido]

Those are all perfect fits. Whereas for him to be either Sauron or Melkor, there'd have to be massive changes to the entire established lore.

I don't know much about it, but there being similarities between the powers of Sauron and Gandalf makes sense, given that they're both Maiar. I think the biggest problem with the idea that he's Sauron would be that Celebrimbor is apparently already planning to make the rings...which I assume means that Sauron is already among the elves.

[Specialka]

Reviewing it as 0/10 or 1/10 in bad faith is also manipulating the rating. What would your solution to that be? They're trying to purge "fake" reviews, but obviously trying to apply an objective lens to what's a fake review vs. a genuine one is impossible, so they have to pick a number to purge from. And because this has happened before, trolls have given slightly higher scores, like a 2/10, to get past these purges. It's an arms race to try and reflect the reality of the reviews. I think purging 5 and lower is probably a bridge too far, but there's no good solution.

Or, since you agree with the deliberate tanking of the rating, do you find those valid?

0/10, 1/10,9/10,10/10 should be purged. There, fixed. Ah yes, since Imdb belongs to Amazon, only the lowest will be removed.

[Orby]

0/10, 1/10,9/10,10/10 should be purged. There, fixed. Ah yes, since Imdb belongs to Amazon, only the lowest will be removed.

While I agree giving the show a 1/10 or a 10/10 is pretty much dumb, especially when we are only 2 episodes in. when do we start dictating peoples actual feelings on a show. Personally I don't think scoring should be open until the season is finished, unless the site you review at, allows reviewing by individual episode.

Just finished the first two episodes. Are these elven men supposed to not be very pretty in this show? I don’t want to call them ugly but they certainly don’t look like any elves I would have imagined being in Tolkien’s world.

The hair is ridiculous too lol. Elrond’s cracked me up.

I did say before the show came out that all the elves (or most) look like British politicians. I was half expecting Boris Johnson to walk on set as a an elf. They are not the eternally youthful elves I have come to expect. although I will admit while watching the show, I did kind of forget it from time to time. I do feel Amazon wanted to do their version of what elves would be. a common thing through the mental thinking of this show lets not forget. Its Amazons vision.

[Specialka]

As said earlier in this thread, there are plenty of oldschool barbers who can create such haircuts without electrical appliances in an instant.

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Pot meet kettle. It isn't censorship based on ideology, it's removing toxic, racist comments on a privately owned website.

Still censorship. Maybe "needed" but still.

[InfiniteCharger]

Amazon is a company whose only ideology is money.

If they were truly "woke" they wouldn't be trying to bust burgeoning unions in their warehouses like they have been for a year.

Your perception of the agenda, like I said, is culture war bullshit nonsense.

Edit: Also, I couldn't find this on comicbook.com, I wonder if you or some other bad-faith person made it up. Could you provide a link?

Oh wait: I found it. It's an article that is supporting Amazon's decision.

Actually, "culture war" has been going on in the United States since the 1960s: feminism, sexual revolution, change to modern movie ratings system. And this is in the context of prior to the 60s almost all entertainment in America was censored and rated G to represent "wholesome" American values. It is a wider part of a social paradigm that includes using media to reinforce and promote certain norms in the culture. As such there is actually an agenda that starts with leftist academics who have been pushing for these kinds of things for a while now especially in entertainment. However, what most people call a "culture war" is just the last 10 years of open discussion of so called "hate" on social media about certain specific topics that have gotten a lot of attention.

All of this stuff with Tolkien basically boils down to the fact that some have openly in academia been holding him up as an example of basically white patriarchy (cliche strawman of course), in order to argue that his message and story is problematic. And this stuff has also been bubbling up since the 60s.

The Female Man is a feminist science fiction novel by American writer Joanna Russ. It was originally written in 1970 and first published in 1975 by Bantam Books. Russ was an ardent feminist and challenged sexist views during the 1970s with her novels, short stories, and nonfiction works. These works include We Who Are About To..., "When It Changed", and What Are We Fighting For?: Sex, Race, Class, and the Future of Feminism.

The novel follows the lives of four women living in parallel universes which differ in time and place. The women visit each other's worlds and are startled by the different views on gender roles and social conventions surrounding women and womanhood. Their encounters influence them to reevaluate their lives and redefine what it means to be a woman. At the end, all four women discover that they are actually four different versions of the same woman and are able to free themselves of the patriarchal conventions of their respective worlds.

The title of the novel comes from the character Joanna, who transforms into a "female man" in order to be respected and seen beyond her sex.[1] A "female man" is a woman with a man's mind, her body and soul still female.[2] Joanna's metaphorical transformation refers to her decision to seek equality by rejecting women's dependence on men and mirrors the journeys made by the other three protagonists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Man


Every since Amazon announced they were going to make this show, a bunch of these kinds of people in these kinds of circles have been discussing how his work should be "updated" to address the parts that are 'problematic'. So yes, there has been an 'agenda' in place in terms of people critiquing not only Tolkien but modern fiction and fantasy overall and arguing that it represents some kind of patriarchal system and needs to be 'fixed'.

At the end of the day this kind of discourse generally falls under "Critical theory".

[Universalgirl]

Still censorship. Maybe "needed" but still.

It’s not only censorship but it’s also selective now.

All reviews are getting a review by amazon.

When they label a review as bad faith it’s gone.

Curious how this will end.

How many times we had censorship with good motives? And how this worked out?

Never good.

Censorship disguised as a good thing.

Is 10/10 rating written review with the comment black elve doesnt feel tolkien

Bad faith?

Or just ideology censorship ?

Well here we are

Amazon is now reviewing all reviews.

Have fun lol

[Orby]

Still censorship. Maybe "needed" but still.

You do not even know what censorship is. You don't walk into someone house/workplace and say whatever you want and expect no repercussions. Its called etiquette. You have a right to say whatever you want, but you do not have a right to get a way with it. Its like calling property damage freedom of expression. Your freedom is allowed on the basis that you can say and do whatever you want. But those are adhered under the laws that are enforced around them.

If your review on a site is, 'this movie sucks cos it has black elves and is forcing SJW agendas, something something, conspiracy, something something' then they have a right to take that down if they feel its bad faith. Its their site. (Its also a shit review if that's considered a review to you)

[Universalgirl]

You do not even know what censorship is. You don't walk into someone house/workplace and say whatever you want and expect no repercussions. Its called etiquette. You have a right to say whatever you want, but you do not have a right to get a way with it. Its like calling property damage freedom of expression. Your freedom is allowed on the basis that you can say and do whatever you want. But those are adhered under the laws that are enforced around them.

Well you do not understand how far woke ideology is pushed.

As example:

In germany one „state“ a bundesland is building a authority where people can report other people if they say something against woke agenda.

As example: you could get reported by saying i dont like rings of power because black elves are not tolkien

And this authority explicitly states you should report all statements that are also NOT AGAINST LAW.

You understand what’s brewing up?

I don’t believe Amazon a single word that they want to build a better world.

It’s about ideology.


Things to come.

[Thelxi]

CGI is very impressive and tasteful, writing is soapy and fluffy with a lot of boring dialogue. Music is decent. It's pretty light compared to the movies and nowhere near as intelligent as the books. It's ending every episode on cliffhangers though, so like most regular TV shows people will probably keep watching it for the cliffhangers alone.

The casting I don't like. I'm no contrarian that hates activism in the arts, but they could've cast the different races to actually look like different races in a world that is all about different races. Other than prosthetic ears and wigs there really is nothing setting them apart. Elves are not attractive or mystical in any way but do have have prosthetic ears, hobbits have grass in their wigs and that's about it. The casting overall feels strained. Galadriel is fine, but beyond that character yikes.

This could go either way. It could easily improve but it could just as easily settle into being netflix commercial trash type TV.

[Skulltaker]

Well you do not understand how far woke ideology is pushed.

As example:

In germany one „state“ a bundesland is building a authority where people can report other people if they say something against woke agenda.

As example: you could get reported by saying i dont like rings of power because black elves are not tolkien

And this authority explicitly states you should report all statements that are also NOT AGAINST LAW.

You understand what’s brewing up?

I don’t believe Amazon a single word that they want to build a better world.

It’s about ideology.


Things to come.

I'm sure you have a source for that.

[Askyl]

Well you do not understand how far woke ideology is pushed.

As example:

In germany one „state“ a bundesland is building a authority where people can report other people if they say something against woke agenda.

As example: you could get reported by saying i dont like rings of power because black elves are not tolkien

And this authority explicitly states you should report all statements that are also NOT AGAINST LAW.

You understand what’s brewing up?

I don’t believe Amazon a single word that they want to build a better world.

It’s about ideology.


Things to come.

Well, first of all you should be reported for that because it's just a false statement and if you're actually a Tolkien expert, you'd know that. I don't care if you use Tolkien as an excuse to be racist, but misquoting him and talking about Tolkiens world as if you actually knew stuff when you don't should be a crime.

There is NO INSTANCE AT ALL where Tolkien described ALL elfs to be of white or pale skin. He've said some groups are, and some specific persons are. Tolkien have only always described elfs as being Fair-skinned which in his time only meant beautiful. When he want to make a point about skin color he've used Pale or White.

If an elf live in southlands for 100+ years, the sun would without a doubt make their skin darker. Because that's how his world works.