Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[infinitemeridian]

It's only two episodes so far, but I was pleasantly surprised, and I don't think the trailers did the show justice at all.

What I really don't get, is the complaints about it not feeling like Tolkien. The dialogue has the some poetic flow as the LOTR trilogy, the costume design is on point, and the set/city design is as if taken out of the movies. If you're one of those hardcore Tolkien purists who also hated the LOTR movies, then yeah, sure, but as a medium level fan of the Tolkien legendarium, the show so far, have been MUCH better than what was expected/feared.

That's the thing - I'm sure the OT took liberties with the look and feel as well. I'm not a super hardcore fan, but I've read Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (albeit a long time ago and don't really remember them that much), but it's consistent with Jackson's films. To a casual watcher, the show should at least feel like lord of the rings (unless they can't get over black hobbits, which it seems a not insignificant portion of people can't).

[OwenBurton]

I watched much of the first two episodes, and I found the series to be fairly underwhelming and average at best, quite honestly. I admit, I'm surprised some people here liked it quite so much. Comparing the new series to the Fellowship of the Ring is not unlike comparing Shadowlands to Wrath of the Lich King. Sometimes newer continuations of a franchise is better than the original -- for example, off the top of my head, Shrek 2 seemed better and more interesting than the original Shrek. But at other times, the opposite is true; Mulan 2 was nowhere near the quality and popularity of the original Mulan, and neither was the "live-action movie" for that matter. (And I don't care much either way about debate over American identity politics, they could have an all-European or all-Asian cast, and I still would hardly be impressed by this series, if nothing else was changed.)

To me at least, nothing about the show (except maybe the natural scenery) was particularly breathtaking or indicative of some groundbreaking masterpiece. I liked Arwen and even Tauriel, but this portrayal of Galadriel just seems to fail to capture the basic essence of the character, from either the book or the films. She seemed almost like Galadriel's younger half-sister or angry cousin from an alternate universe or something, not the young Galadriel herself. The actress might have been excellent in ANOTHER Amazon series, but I think there were better options for Galadriel in this one.

The same with Elrond, he also seems very off and superficial and not particularly engaging or likable as a portrayal, I didn't even guess that he was the younger Elrond until it was specifically mentioned, perhaps he simply doesn't seem to have much of a resemblance to the Elrond from the films? The actors for Galadriel and Elrond, their skills seemed arguably passable, but nothing particularly special or uplifting either. The dialogue also seemed very awkward and not natural sounding at times. They are supposed to be the two most familiar main characters that enthralled millions of viewers from beginning to end, but there is neither familiarity nor mysticism and poise about them.

Watched the first episode.

It's bad. Not even "it's so bad it's good". It's just not entertaining to watch. Almost all of the characters are unlikeable, either being boring as doorknobs or being actively unpleasant. The only characters I didn't dislike were the hobbit girl and the black elf archer, and even then they're not likeable, just not aggravating like the others. Dialogue is bad and there were at least a couple instances of extremely juvenile exchanges. I certainly wouldn't expect noble elves to be casually making light of human-elf relationships, or a guy literally saying "your mom cut herself, didn't she? Haha that's probably why your dad left" (I'm not joking this literally happened).

The show looks visually unappealing. The costumes either look like the artists didn't even try, or look like cheap cosplays. There are compositing problems and the CGI monsters are weightless. Also, outside of the scenes that take place at Lindon, the show has this grey desaturated look. There are also disconcerting extreme close up shots, and the camera can never seem to sit still for more than 2 or 3 seconds. In some cases there were shots that lasted barely half a second and it very disorienting. Also, the music is forgettable.

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What boggles my mind is that this is a $700 million show. This is like, the most expensive show in the history ever, since Game of Thrones. You'd think that there would be top of the line talent on this show. Good cinematographers. Good actors. Writers who would make the dialogue not cringe. The best costume designers. The best in

Good lord, every new interview and article about this Show shows more and more how absolute trash it is going to be.

How People are even looking forward to this astounds me to no end. Though there doesn't seem to be a shortage of mental illness these days.

Everything about the plot seemed random and confusing from that troll / dishevelled giant creature which crash-landed from the skies with little explanation and was found by two female hobbits, to Galadriel suddenly being sent to Valinor with most of her friends as a "reward" for her failed mission after she nearly got most of her companions killed, but then also choosing to return at the last moment, meeting a random man, and getting rescued by a ship that appeared from nowhere. Nothing seemed "magical" or wondrous in a way that truly made you want to eagerly watch the next episode. The elves in particular seemed to be very plastic and one-dimensional compared to the elves from the original trilogy.

There are some mainstream reviewers who dislike the show, and there are about half a hundred negative reviews on YouTube when I searched, "Rings of Power Amazon review".
https://ew.com/tv/tv-reviews/lord-of...-power-amazon/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultas...iews-entirely/
https://time.com/6209353/rings-of-power-review/
https://babylonbee.com/news/rings-of...am-here-for-it

In short - perhaps this series will improve, along with my review and opinion of it, but I am not feeling very hopeful for its future. Because quite frankly, "Rings of Power" (even its very name) seems more like relatively mediocre fan fiction rather than anything else. I'm sure they tried to give a decent effort into making this...but the end result still seems rather incomplete and lackluster, like something simply out of sync and rhythm.

[Sialina]

Why can't an Elf or Dwarf child occasionally be born with dark skin, just as Elves are occasionally born with red hair?

Likely for the same reason people are born with red hair all over Europe but not with dark skin.

It was difficult to travel 1000 years ago, if you walked to China from Europe, you would be the only white person, you would not walk back. The further back in time you go, the less diverse individual villages would be. If the series was set in modern times, the casting would be fine, if set during medieval times, you would only expect to see differences along travel routes, people going inland after that would quickly have their traits bread out of the general population in 2 or 3 generations.

There are good choices if you want to add people of color, have the people of Rhun bring an oliphant as a gift for the king, have a trade ship arrive. Both would be perfectly good options.

Did you feel left out when none of the main cast in Squidgame were white?

[Al Gorefiend]

I hope they don't side story a romance plot. Damn do I hate that stuff, the Aragorn / Arwen scenes in PJ's too. Personal taste, romance is the most boring of the cinema genres.

[infinitemeridian]

[B]
To me at least, nothing about the show (except maybe the natural scenery) was particularly breathtaking or indicative of some groundbreaking masterpiece. I liked Arwen and even Tauriel, but this portrayal of Galadriel just seems to fail to capture the basic essence of the character, from either the book or the films. She seemed almost like Galadriel's younger half-sister from an alternative universe or something, not the young Galadriel herself. The actress might have been excellent in ANOTHER Amazon series, but I think there were better options for Galadriel in this one.

Galadrial is almost 10K years old in Lord of the Rings. I find it ludicrous to believe she can't have changed at all in those years, and this portrayal isn't THAT much different in terms of characterization other than her being a super adept swordsman.

[B]
The same with Elrond, he also seems very off and superficial and not particularly engaging or likable as a portrayal, I didn't even guess that he was the younger Elrond until it was specifically mentioned, perhaps he doesn't seem to have much of a resemblance to the Elrond from the films?

To each their own, but Elrond is one of the more "likeable" characters - and again, he seems reasonably in line with the previous film's version, albeit one that is thousands of years younger.

[B]
Everything about the plot seemed random and confusing from that troll which crash-landed and was found by two female hobbits, to Galadriel suddenly being sent to Valinor but then choosing to return. Nothing seemed "magical" or wondrous in a way that truly made you want to eagerly watch the next episode.

The "troll" is likely Gandalf or Sauron or at least one of the Maiar. How can it be random if they're building the plot over the mystery of who he is? And Galdrial choosing to return was a completely understandable decision given the entire first episode, it wasn't random at all.

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Likely for the same reason people are born with red hair all over Europe but not with dark skin.

It was difficult to travel 1000 years ago, if you walked to China from Europe, you would be the only white person, you would not walk back. The further back in time you go, the less diverse individual villages would be. If the series was set in modern times, the casting would be fine, if set during medieval times, you would only expect to see differences along travel routes, people going inland after that would quickly have their traits bread out of the general population in 2 or 3 generations.

There are good choices if you want to add people of color, have the people of Rhun bring an oliphant as a gift for the king, have a trade ship arrive. Both would be perfectly good options.

Did you feel left out when none of the main cast in Squidgame were white?

The series is set in a fictional universe and race doesn't matter for the plot, lore, or tone so there is nothing wrong with adding black characters. If you think they make the show seem out of place, that says more about you as a person than the showwriters. I love how everyone who criticizes this show is suddenly a PhD in Anthropology and needs to point out all these ridiculous nitpicks (they're not even that) as why the show is "woke" or "politicized".

[Adamas102]

A few black people or even a black princess (without any kind of justification for it to happen) in an isolationist population is forced diversity.

If there is variety in hair and eye color then variation in skin color is perfectly reasonable. It’s all the same thing at it’s core. Being so fixated in skin color as a differentiating factor says a lot more about your narrow world view than about the fantasy world itself.

[infinitemeridian]

If there is variety in hair and eye color then variation in skin color is perfectly reasonable. It’s all the same thing at it’s core. Being so fixated in skin color as a differentiating factor says a lot more about your narrow world view than about the fantasy world itself.

People always act under the assumption that forced diversity is bad in the first place. Even if it is "forced", I've yet to hear a compelling argument as to why it's bad other than something that doesn't just boil down to "I don't like looking at black people".

[Sialina]

Galadrial is almost 10K years old in Lord of the Rings. I find it ludicrous to believe she can't have changed at all in those years, and this portrayal isn't THAT much different in terms of characterization other than her being a super adept swordsman.

The series is set in a fictional universe and race doesn't matter for the plot, lore, or tone so there is nothing wrong with adding black characters. If you think they make the show seem out of place, that says more about you as a person than the showwriters. I love how everyone who criticizes this show is suddenly a PhD in Anthropology and needs to point out all these ridiculous nitpicks (they're not even that) as why the show is "woke" or "politicized".

What does it say about me? Go on, I'll let you know that I'm a "PoC" before you step in something you shouldn't step in. But I've been to Africa, I've lived most of my life in Asia, I've been to the middle east. Once you go 100km outside of an international airport it is VERY rare to see someone of a different race in those places. Fantasy does not make this different, fantasy needs to be grounded or the writers hand will show, and as soon as the writers hand is apparent, immersion can not be had.

You also say that Galadriels personality doesn't matter because there is a timeskip, so if the original lore doesn't matter, personality doesn't matter, and race doesn't matter, why are we calling this Lord of the Rings?

Go read some reviews about the Matrix, there isn't anyone talking about forced diversity there, because in that universe it makes perfect sense, and it's one of the most popular movies ever, please explain that to me, how come everyone is ok with it when it makes sense, but people are not okay with it when it doesn't make sense? If they wanted to make entire villages of darker skinned people, or continents, it would make so much more sense than what they did.

There are 2 types of fantasy "light" fantasy, things like Harry Potter, clearly designed for a younger audience, if you start thinking about the magic system or why noone notices tons of people going in and out of the train station compared to getting on the trains, well, it doesn't make sense, but it is not designed to, it's fully escapist fun for a younger audience, it's ok that you have a watch that lets you travel back in time, and the only thing they use it for is so Herminoe can take double classes because that is the design the author was going for.

Then you have the "hard" or "serious" type fantasy, lord of the rings and a song of ice and fire both fall under this banner, they aim to depict a world as if it really existed. We are asked to suspend our disbelief for a few fantastical elements, but nothing more. Their worlds are designed to make internal sense. If .. lets say the average person could cast fire spells, the author would've thought through what ramifications that would've had for the world.

It's a little like comparing a light hearted action movie and a serious drama, you would be totally fine with Vin Diesel surviving driving a car out of a plane in fast and the furious 6, it would however take you right out of your immersion if Ayrton Senna drove a car out of a plane in the Senna mini series about his life and tragic death.

For people that don't like fantasy very much I can see how you don't care if nothing in the world makes sense, but for people very into the second type of fantasy, it is jarring.

People always act under the assumption that forced diversity is bad in the first place. Even if it is "forced", I've yet to hear a compelling argument as to why it's bad other than something that doesn't just boil down to "I don't like looking at black people".

Show me a post like that, I think you saying that says more about you than the people you are trying to critique.
You can't understand why it doesn't make sense? Would you be perfectly fine with a few modern buildings in the elven cities in LOTR? How about if the Burj Khalifa was in Hobbiton? I mean, what is wrong with architectural diversity right?

[kenn9530]

To me it just means I have seen enough and don't want to see anymore.
Considering the fact you are talking about streaming the idea is nobody has time to watch everything.
And because of that, if they watch a few minutes and they just don't want to watch anymore, it is a 1/10.
That is my view on what that means and yes that is a realistic and honest review in that case.
This happens all the time whether or not people take the time to leave a review on it.

Basically Amazon had to come out of the gate all guns blazing to capture those on the fence or curious.
Remains to be seen as to whether it works or not. It was obvious from months ago this was an uphill battle.

Overall we will see how "honest" things are after about a month when more of the show has aired.

You cant leave an honest review if you have not seen it all for one, and even if you dont like it for whatever reason that doesnt make it right to claim its a 1/10 show just because you dont like it, i dont like love island but im not going to claim its bad just because its not to my taste, a 1/10 rating is not a genuine rating and is completely dishonest.

[Adamas102]

People always act under the assumption that forced diversity is bad in the first place. Even if it is "forced", I've yet to hear a compelling argument as to why it's bad other than something that doesn't just boil down to "I don't like looking at black people".

Yeah, pretty much people who have been so conditioned to see skin color as making someone SO different that you need a “good” reason for them to just be there. Even in a fantasy world where none of our racial history need apply.

[s_bushido]

Then you have the "hard" or "serious" type fantasy, lord of the rings and a song of ice and fire both fall under this banner, they aim to depict a world as if it really existed. We are asked to suspend our disbelief for a few fantastical elements, but nothing more. Their worlds are designed to make internal sense. If .. lets say the average person could cast fire spells, the author would've thought through what ramifications that would've had for the world.

It's a little like comparing a light hearted action movie and a serious drama, you would be totally fine with Vin Diesel surviving driving a car out of a plane in fast and the furious 6, it would however take you right out of your immersion if Ayrton Senna drove a car out of a plane in the Senna mini series about his life and tragic death.

Today I learned that non-white people existing in a fictional setting is as fantastical as surviving a superhero action stunt. The lengths people go to to justify their bullshit is breathtaking.

[InfiniteCharger]

You cant leave an honest review if you have not seen it all for one, and even if you dont like it for whatever reason that doesnt make it right to claim its a 1/10 show just because you dont like it, i dont like love island but im not going to claim its bad just because its not to my taste, a 1/10 rating is not a genuine rating and is completely dishonest.

I am just giving my way of looking at it because this is a TV show that requires a time investment over months and potentially years.
If you are not drawn into it based on a few episodes then yes, it can very much be a 1/10 because you really dislike it that much.
For me, there are plenty of TV shows on streaming that fall into this category especially new stuff created on those services.
Basically it means "hard pass" wouldn't watch even if I had all the time in the world after watching everything else available I wanted to watch. Streaming is all about getting eyeballs on product and it is a very crowded space so yes, that kind of response would make sense in that context.

Whether that applies to any or all of these who knows. That would be my personal justification for a rating like that.

[infinitemeridian]

What does it say about me? Go on, I'll let you know that I'm a "PoC" before you step in something you shouldn't step in. But I've been to Africa, I've lived most of my life in Asia, I've been to the middle east. Once you go 100km outside of an international airport it is VERY rare to see someone of a different race in those places. Fantasy does not make this different, fantasy needs to be grounded or the writers hand will show, and as soon as the writers hand is apparent, immersion can not be had.

You also say that Galadriels personality doesn't matter because there is a timeskip, so if the original lore doesn't matter, personality doesn't matter, and race doesn't matter, why are we calling this Lord of the Rings?

Go read some reviews about the Matrix, there isn't anyone talking about forced diversity there, because in that universe it makes perfect sense, and it's one of the most popular movies ever, please explain that to me, how come everyone is ok with it when it makes sense, but people are not okay with it when it doesn't make sense? If they wanted to make entire villages of darker skinned people, or continents, it would make so much more sense than what they did.

There are 2 types of fantasy "light" fantasy, things like Harry Potter, clearly designed for a younger audience, if you start thinking about the magic system or why noone notices tons of people going in and out of the train station compared to getting on the trains, well, it doesn't make sense, but it is not designed to, it's fully escapist fun for a younger audience, it's ok that you have a watch that lets you travel back in time, and the only thing they use it for is so Herminoe can take double classes because that is the design the author was going for.

Then you have the "hard" or "serious" type fantasy, lord of the rings and a song of ice and fire both fall under this banner, they aim to depict a world as if it really existed. We are asked to suspend our disbelief for a few fantastical elements, but nothing more. Their worlds are designed to make internal sense. If .. lets say the average person could cast fire spells, the author would've thought through what ramifications that would've had for the world.

It's a little like comparing a light hearted action movie and a serious drama, you would be totally fine with Vin Diesel surviving driving a car out of a plane in fast and the furious 6, it would however take you right out of your immersion if Ayrton Senna drove a car out of a plane in the Senna mini series about his life and tragic death.

For people that don't like fantasy very much I can see how you don't care if nothing in the world makes sense, but for people very into the second type of fantasy, it is jarring.



Show me a post like that, I think you saying that says more about you than the people you are trying to critique.
You can't understand why it doesn't make sense? Would you be perfectly fine with a few modern buildings in the elven cities in LOTR? How about if the Burj Khalifa was in Hobbiton? I mean, what is wrong with architectural diversity right?

I never said Galdrial's personality didn't matter, I said the character's are similar enough in their portrayal that the differences feel authentic while maintaining an arch of continuity. And that's a lot of big talk for "black people can't be in lord of the rings". It's fantasy - there are no rules. The trends and behaviors we see in the modern world (and even in antiquity) do not have to apply here. Now of course, there are rules and then there are rules - it is still Tolkien's universe after all. But there is nothing that precludes non-white characters in that universe, so it's a bit of a stretch to call it immersion breaking. Comparing seeing black people to shooting fireballs out of your palms is a bit ridiculous.

[kenn9530]

I am just giving my way of looking at it because this is a TV show that requires a time investment over months and potentially years.
If you are not drawn into it based on a few episodes then yes, it can very much be a 1/10 because you really dislike it that much.
For me, there are plenty of TV shows on streaming that fall into this category especially new stuff created just for that.
Basically it means "hard pass" wouldn't watch even if I had all the time in the world after watching everything else available I wanted to watch.
This is all about streaming and getting eyeballs on product and it is a very crowded space so yes, that kind of response would make sense in that context.

Whether that applies to any or all of these who knows. That would be my personal justification for a rating like that.

It doesnt matter if you dont like something a 1/10 rating is completely dishonest, if you simply dont like something you might give it a 4 or 5 but to claim its a 1/10 is just some personal grudge you have against the show or the company making it, entertainment is there to waste time and make you switch your brain off for a while and doesnt take much time investment, even shows with hundreds of episodes have a few weeks of watch time at most. You will not convince anyone that a 1/10 rating would be fair for even some of the worst shows on netflix or whatever, even the new resident evil show is at least a 4/10 and its not very resident evil like.

[Sialina]

Today I learned that non-white people existing in a fictional setting is as fantastical as surviving a superhero action stunt. The lengths people go to to justify their bullshit is breathtaking.

Explain 2 things to me then, 1. Why don't we have mixed races all over the earth? 2. How would you go about walking to China from Europe 1000 years ago? Think about needing to survive the winter, you need food for the trip, you don't know where water is, you can't speak any of the languages along the map, you don't have complete maps.
3. Explain why you would go on this trip several times in your life?
4. Explain why people don't have any problems with this whatsoever in a modern setting where you can travel quickly via Airplane.
Go on

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I never said Galdrial's personality didn't matter, I said the character's are similar enough in their portrayal that the differences feel authentic while maintaining an arch of continuity. And that's a lot of big talk for "black people can't be in lord of the rings". It's fantasy - there are no rules. The trends and behaviors we see in the modern world (and even in antiquity) do not have to apply here. Now of course, there are rules and then there are rules - it is still Tolkien's universe after all. But there is nothing that precludes non-white characters in that universe, so it's a bit of a stretch to call it immersion breaking. Comparing seeing black people to shooting fireballs out of your palms is a bit ridiculous.

Go ahead and explain what is wrong with using the easterlings and the people of Rhun or some other established people of color instead of token characters?
There are rules if you want your series to get more than 6.2 on IMDB, house of the dragon and game of thrones both had plenty of diverse actors, all in fitting roles, and the sit way higher on IMDB

[s_bushido]

Why don't we have mixed races all over the earth?

Fun fact: Humans are all the same "race."

[Sialina]

Fun fact: Humans are all the same "race."

Oh, cool, then there can't be racism right? Or racial supremacists? Didn't think this through very much before trying to be smug did you?

[Rennadrel]

Explain 2 things to me then, 1. Why don't we have mixed races all over the earth? 2. How would you go about walking to China from Europe 1000 years ago? Think about needing to survive the winter, you need food for the trip, you don't know where water is, you can't speak any of the languages along the map, you don't have complete maps.
3. Explain why you would go on this trip several times in your life?
4. Explain why people don't have any problems with this whatsoever in a modern setting where you can travel quickly via Airplane.
Go on

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Go ahead and explain what is wrong with using the easterlings and the people of Rhun or some other established people of color instead of token characters?
There are rules if you want your series to get more than 6.2 on IMDB, house of the dragon and game of thrones both had plenty of diverse actors, all in fitting roles, and the sit way higher on IMDB

House of Dragons having black actors representing a family in a series that takes place before GoT just makes people question what happened to them all in the lead up to the start of the GoT story. It's the only real issue with the series but it is also too early to tell.

[Gumble]

We have 2 shows that have popped up recently to compare. LOTR and House of the Dragon. Both have had diversity injected into them where it wasn't. LOTR is getting a ton of flack for this, and House of the Dragon isn't.

So what is the difference? Why doesn't House of the Dragon have nearly 200 pages discussing why HBO is doing with black Valyerians (sp)? I'm sure a few people have mentioned it, but nearly all of the discussion I've seen of that show is "wow so much better than I could have hoped for.... please don't screw it up like S8"


The issue boils down to HBO injecting diversity but focusing on making a good show, where Amazon focused on the diversity without bothering to make a good show. It shows where the focus was. For Amazon it wasn't on the story. For HBO, it was.

When the people behind the show spend that much time telling you that their focus wasn't on making a good story, nobody is shocked that shows turn out like this.

The problem isn't with the actors playing parts in the show, but rather the people running the show who picked those actors because they were less concerned with making a good show than they should have been. Its like when actors are given a horrible script. They were set up to fail.

Amazon turned off comments and ratings for the show, guess they are really worried how its turning out. I hope everyone in here supporting it is watching, because I don't know a single person IRL that has bothered.

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House of Dragons having black actors representing a family in a series that takes place before GoT just makes people question what happened to them all in the lead up to the start of the GoT story. It's the only real issue with the series but it is also too early to tell.

I mean, that entire family dies except for a brother and sister, so the answer is "they all die".

HoD is a well made show though (so far...) so nobody cares that one of the white haired family married a black guy and has mixed children. The story is good, the actors are acting well, so nobody cares about the diversity....

imagine that

[Adamas102]

What does it say about me? Go on, I'll let you know that I'm a "PoC" before you step in something you shouldn't step in. But I've been to Africa, I've lived most of my life in Asia, I've been to the middle east. Once you go 100km outside of an international airport it is VERY rare to see someone of a different race in those places. Fantasy does not make this different, fantasy needs to be grounded or the writers hand will show, and as soon as the writers hand is apparent, immersion can not be had.

Do you think when early humans migrated north they just all turned white as they passed a certain latitude? Do you think the mutations that led to skin lightening in the early peoples of Europe popped up across the continent all at once?

If you knew anything about these things you’d realize that it took thousands of years of migrations and passing on genetic mutations to get to what YOU seem to think is required for a “grounded” fantasy setting.

Tolkien set Middle-earth in a prehistoric time, and his peoples didn’t evolve or migrate the way actual Homo sapiens did. The idea that for it to be “realistic” the setting must mirror a relatively modern, highly segregated version of our world is simply your own prejudices talking.