1. #3601
    Banned Ihavewaffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thentix21 View Post
    The one with underlying issues here is you. That is all you guys can do is swing the racism bat anytime someone has a legitimate concern because you can't come up with any kind of meaningful debate or rebuttal or argument. What is worse is you guys are so petty and smug in your deliveries of them as well.

    No it is not racist to be against black dwarves or elves in a Tolkiens universe. Tolkien created his universe because medieval britain/europe lacked a significant fantasy world and he based it on MEDEIVAL britain europe. Where in the historical documents do you seem groups of black people roaming around integrated into society in medieval europe/britain? I'll wait.

    No I won't actually cause they never did. Africa has a HUGE wealth of their own mythological and supernatural entities, deities, being and so on and so on. Someone could do a lot with it. And you best believe, if someone made a mythological world based on african culture and there was a white zulu warrior or something, and someone had a problem with it, id be right behind them saying they have a legitimate concern and it should not be. There should not be black dwarves or black elves, just like there should not be white zulu warriors or a white mythological person in africa in medieval time. Stop using the racism/sexism/bigotry blah blah blah crap, you are only projecting.
    Those same people would complain if there was a white casting in an african myth setting...

  2. #3602
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Interesting. I didn't know the moderators of the forum where allowed to post like this and show their preference.

    As a person from the community you are trying to protect, we don't need your protection.

    As far as HoD, there may have been comments about it, but you'll notice they all stopped. Why is that? Why aren't people upset about that show vs this one? Could it be that HBO did its diversity well and didn't sacrifice their story for it? That they focused on making a good show with a good story first?


    This does explain a lot about this forum though.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There were so, so many things on that wall.
    They stopped literally because the creators of the show had to come out and reassure race baiters that these black Targaeryens married and intermingled into the Targ family. This allowed these "critics" to dismiss them as "not really Targs" so who cares at that point.

    Also, being a moderator doesn't mean I don't have an opinion. And my opinion is firmly that casting actors of particular races only matters in pieces where the race is an integral part of the character, or historical pieces, and only then if the historical piece is going for accuracy. I didn't care when Michael Jackson remade the Wizard of Oz with black actors, and I didn't care when they made a musical play called Hamilton about the Founding Fathers with black and brown actors because......well, it was a rap musical which took liberties.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2022-09-04 at 01:56 PM. Reason: edited to fix an unintentional negative

  3. #3603
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    They stopped literally because the creators of the show had to come out and reassure race baiters that these black Targaeryens married and intermingled into the Targ family. This allowed these "critics" to dismiss them as "not really Targs" so who cares at that point.

    Also, being a moderator doesn't mean I don't have an opinion. And my opinion is firmly that casting actors of particular races only matters in pieces where the race is an integral part of the character, or historical pieces, and only then if the historical piece is going for accuracy. I didn't care when Michael Jackson remade the Wizard of Oz with black actors, and I didn't care when they made a musical play called Hamilton about the Founding Fathers with black and brown actors because......well, it was a rap musical which took liberties.
    So HBO explained how the changes to their show made sense and their critics stopped criticizing? Are you admitting that LOTR has failed to show how their changes make sense and that is why they are still be criticized?

    Amazon did make a pretty big push when the show was in early promotion about it being true to Tolkien and it not being something they were taking great liberties with. They promoted it that way right up until the first photos and trailers came out, then switched to "diversity and inclusion".

    By your own description, would you not agree that marketting it one way to fans of LOTR and then switching to "something that wasn't going for accuracy", was and is something fans of LOTR can be upset about?


    And to be precise, since that seems so lacking here. Most of the complaints of the casting is that it looks like Amazon spends more time and effort on "diversity and inclusion" instead of "writing and story-telling". Nobody (outside of a tiny minority) cares if black and brown people are in LOTR, or WoT, or GoT. However when it looks like the inclusion of those people is being done as a shield to prevent commentary and criticism of their poor writing, direction, and story-telling, people who care about the product that is being made get upset.

    Me personally, I don't care that much about LOTR. I like the story well enough, but Wheel of Time was my big one and Amazon did the exact same thing. Screwed up the story, did a terrible job on casting, costuming, dialogue, story-telling and made a mockery of Robert Jordan's work.

    I'm sure LOTR fans feel that way right now, and they see your comments as just as racist as that crazy person posting WOKE blinky lights. You and your cohorts here are saying "IGNORE HOW BAD THE SHOW IS! ITS GOT BLACK PEOPLE!"

    That's racist.

  4. #3604
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    The cutest thing about the "censorship" complaints is that show still has favorable ratings on other sites. I guess Amazon controls every single review site on the internet.

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  5. #3605
    Personally the problem is Hollywood always takes liberties with source material. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
    This isn't really new, however, in general, the ones that work the best are those that stick closest to the source material.
    And most of the time that boils down to talent on the part of those who are making the adaptation.

    Notable examples:
    Clockwork Orange
    The Shining
    One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest
    Apocalypse Now
    Jaws
    Harry Potter
    Lord of the Rings
    etc

    All based on books, all changed in some way from the source material. All classic movies.
    All directed and written by top talent and featuring top tier actors.

    On the other hand what you have here in the streaming era, is that streaming companies are just grabbing folks and putting out "stuff". This is why so much of what is on streaming is worthless. As a comparison, HBO is not a streaming company and were the first to make their own series. And they did that by again hiring top talent in directing, writing and acting which resulted in many other cable channels following the trend. This has produced many of the most memorable television series of the last 30 years including the Sopranos, the Wire, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, etc. In fact, of the streaming companies, Neflix also did a good job in the beginning as well producing well known series like Narcos, Orange is the New Black, Stranger Things, etc. But nowadays, most of these steaming companies are just throwing money around and unproven talent just to churn out more content. And no matter how much they try and market these things as significant or ground breaking for whatever reason, the results speak for themselves. HOD was developed by the writer of GOT, George RR Martin and pitched as a prequel to HBO. Obviously George is a talented writer and producer. Rings of Power was produced by two Showrunners and a Producer with little to no accomplishments of note. That makes a difference. And this is why I don't pay attention to that marketing BS that these companies put out. It is 2022. This isn't about being 'groundbreaking' as opposed to just making a good show.

    But beyond that, the idea that of making story about the second age from Tolkien, covering thousands of years and compressing it is silly. It is beyond dumb because it removes most of what makes that story work in the lore to begin with. Starting with the Elves as the pinnacle of Eru Iluvatars creation on Arda and the target of Melkor and Sauron's corruption. Followed by the jealousy sown by them using the difference in life span between humans and other mortals and Elves. All of this is a well connected story line and changing one element totally removes the justification for the other. They could easily have simply established the lore of the second age in the beginning, gone into the backstory of the Elves and the previous ages and then just focused on one smaller time period. That would have been much better as an introduction to the 2nd age as the basis of building a franchise around it. But instead they chose the alternate approach, to be more like House of the Dragon, which skips around a lot in time as it covers about 10-15 years of time in the first season. And without having a talented team, such a production is subject to being disjointed and choppy as you jump around all over the place following various plots. Which is especially true for Rings of Power because there are so many events from the second age they are trying to put all in one series, when they could easily just have focused on one time period, one kingdom, one dynasty and actually done that for multiple seasons. Most television series lasting multiple seasons cover only maybe a few years of time in universe, so that would definitely have been a more reasonable pacing. That is why there is no sense of time in this show because they jump around and compress everything in real time. So it is not shocking to me that this show would succeed or fail in being able to pull that off. And this is what they should have been talking about in the marketing of the show instead of this other BS like it is the first show to put x people on TV. Two other series also premiered around the same time with similar changes and both have decent reviews: Sandman, House of the Dragon.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-04 at 03:11 PM.

  6. #3606
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Why was this post infracted when the person she is responding to wasn't? Are the mods at MMO Champion sexist and racist? You infracted an asian female when the white male she was responding to said way worse things about her. Does MMO Champion support sexism and racism?
    I’m not white I’m black.

    As to the show, there needs to be some logical consistency to how you make changes. If a Hobbit that has Asian features came into the shire and married and had children that then looked like the biological offspring of their parents, that gives consistency. It opens up the question of "are there communities of asian looking hobbits? Can we see them and see what stories they have?"
    And the hobbits are Mabye the only group this would apply to depending on how long they live and how fast they breed dwarfs and elf’s would breed way to slowly to effectively mix out skin tones if they were made with them from the start and the humans are likely a mix match.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #3607
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Why can't an Elf or Dwarf child occasionally be born with dark skin, just as Elves are occasionally born with red hair?
    That's fine if it's assumed the peoples of middle earth had the genetic physiology of cats.

  8. #3608
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Personally the problem is Hollywood always takes liberties with source material. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
    This isn't really new, however, in general, the ones that work the best are those that stick closest to the source material.
    And most of the time that boils down to talent on the part of those who are making the adaptation.

    Notable examples:
    Clockwork Orange
    The Shining
    One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest
    Apocalypse Now
    Jaws
    Harry Potter


    All based on books, all changed in some way from the source material. All classic movies.
    All directed and written by top talent and featuring top tier actors.
    Don't forget that we also had a great adaptation in The Expanse, which unfortunately got cancelled and had a great cast and really intriguing plot behind it that is adapted well from the books (apparently, I haven't read them yet). I thought Chris Pratt's adaptation of The Terminal List was alright, though not a particularly great show and of course the usual pissant journalists lambasted it, proving that they didn't understand the obvious themes of the show.

  9. #3609
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I’m not white I’m black.



    And the hobbits are Mabye the only group this would apply to depending on how long they live and how fast they breed dwarfs and elf’s would breed way to slowly to effectively mix out skin tones if they were made with them from the start and the humans are likely a mix match.
    Fair enough, my apologies. I tend to assume most people complaining about racism on here are white boys who have a black friend.

  10. #3610
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    So HBO explained how the changes to their show made sense and their critics stopped criticizing? Are you admitting that LOTR has failed to show how their changes make sense and that is why they are still be criticized?

    Amazon did make a pretty big push when the show was in early promotion about it being true to Tolkien and it not being something they were taking great liberties with. They promoted it that way right up until the first photos and trailers came out, then switched to "diversity and inclusion".

    By your own description, would you not agree that marketting it one way to fans of LOTR and then switching to "something that wasn't going for accuracy", was and is something fans of LOTR can be upset about?

    This the crux. Marketing is the shows downfall.

    Shadow of Mordor is a game that took lots of liberties with the story and lore. It did get backlash, including the sexy shelob. Difference is that the developers didn't go around claiming how faithful it was and even made new characters themselves to do what they want with.

    If Amazon had gone out from the start with proper marketing, there would still be backlash, but way less. Any show receive backlash so that can't be avoided when it's big enough of a show.

    Then the actors and Amazon doubled down on it and started to attack fans. It never works. But they wanted to cash in on the"faithful lotr" hype.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  11. #3611
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    So HBO explained how the changes to their show made sense and their critics stopped criticizing? Are you admitting that LOTR has failed to show how their changes make sense and that is why they are still be criticized?
    Whether it stops criticism or not isn't the point, since that would always be out of their control. Explaining how and why it works the way it does on the fictional setting would help bridge understanding to its intent as a creative decision that fits Middle Earth. Much like how the Behind the Scenes dvds helped people understand Peter Jackson's creative process and help bridge an understanding and acceptance to changes.

    It helps to have an explanation, even if the explanation isn't perfect or even if the changes deserve criticism *cough* the Hobbit *cough*

    It wouldn't be as controversial as say, telling everyone they're going to be faithful to the books, then marketting the show with how they modernized the fiction with diversity, and squelching reviews. The PR for Rings of Power is absolutely tone deaf, and in the show's own analogy, fanning the flames rather than blowing them out.

    The show isn't bad. The marketting is the real source of the problem, and its like they intentionally did it for the buzz it'd generate while denouncing any criticisms by flaunting a moral high ground. Its literally political tactics.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-04 at 03:38 PM.

  12. #3612
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Whether it stops criticism or not isn't the point, since that would always be out of their control. Explaining how and why it works the way it does on the fictional setting would help bridge understanding to its intent as a creative decision that fits Middle Earth. Much like how the Behind the Scenes dvds helped people understand Peter Jackson's creative process and help bridge an understanding and acceptance to changes.

    It helps to have an explanation, even if the explanation isn't perfect or even if the changes deserve criticism *cough* the Hobbit *cough*

    It wouldn't be as controversial as say, telling everyone they're going to be faithful to the books, then marketting the show with how they modernized the fiction with diversity, and squelching reviews. The PR for Rings of Power is absolutely tone deaf, and in the show's own analogy, fanning the flames rather than blowing them out.
    The point is world building. Tolkien spent a lot of time thinking of the origins and backgrounds for these places peoples and cultures beyond simply one story.

    That is why he gets the respect and why he is the forefather of things like MMOs, RPGs and DnD because they all depend on elaborate world building to set the story in. And that all revolves around diversity in cultures, traditions, gestures, languages, song, dance, species, religious beliefs, etc. It is a well defined and fleshed out characteristic of the genre today, right down to the maps and zones of WOW and all the different types of architectures local flora and fauna and so forth. But this is the result of 60 years of development and evolution since Tolkien released his work. Modernizing Tolkien to suddenly have Orc Wizards and Shamans and Shadow Priests would be similarly stupid, but that is what happens when you focus on such a thing. When Tolkien wrote his stories, those ideas were not present and his story has a very unique narrative and setting, which is what people want to see. If I want to see strong female Warriors I can make one in WOW which is full of them. But that isn't what I expect to see in Tolkien because that isn't what his story was about.

  13. #3613
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The point is world building. Tolkien spent a lot of time thinking of the origins and backgrounds for these places peoples and cultures beyond simply one story.

    That is why he gets the respect and why he is the forefather of things like MMOs, RPGs and DnD because they all depend on elaborate world building to set the story in. And that all revolves around diversity in cultures, traditions, gestures, languages, song, dance, species, religious beliefs, etc. It is a well defined and fleshed out characteristic of the genre today, right down to the maps and zones of WOW and all the different types of architectures local flora and fauna and so forth. But this is the result of 60 years of development and evolution since Tolkien released his work. Modernizing Tolkien to suddenly have Orc Wizards and Shamans and Shadow Priests would be similarly stupid, but that is what happens when you focus on such a thing. When Tolkien wrote his stories, those ideas were not present and his story has a very unique narrative and setting, which is what people want to see. If I want to see strong female Warriors I can make one in WOW which is full of them. But that isn't what I expect to see in Tolkien because that isn't what his story was about.
    Member when Eowyn snuck into the army to fight among her kin and then ended up killing the Witch King with the help of Merry? I member.

    The thing about you bigots and racists that can't accept women and black people in this world is that you are really missing one of the main themes of Tolkien's work: diversity and inclusion. The great victories in Middle Earth happened when Men, Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits come together. Look at The Fellowship! Tolkien was woke AF and you guys miss it because of some hang up about women and people of color. Sad really, but in this case even stranger if you claim to be a fan of Tolkien and miss this obvious theme of his works.

  14. #3614
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    And to be precise, since that seems so lacking here. Most of the complaints of the casting is that it looks like Amazon spends more time and effort on "diversity and inclusion" instead of "writing and story-telling". Nobody (outside of a tiny minority) cares if black and brown people are in LOTR, or WoT, or GoT. However when it looks like the inclusion of those people is being done as a shield to prevent commentary and criticism of their poor writing, direction, and story-telling, people who care about the product that is being made get upset.

    Me personally, I don't care that much about LOTR. I like the story well enough, but Wheel of Time was my big one and Amazon did the exact same thing. Screwed up the story, did a terrible job on casting, costuming, dialogue, story-telling and made a mockery of Robert Jordan's work.

    I'm sure LOTR fans feel that way right now, and they see your comments as just as racist as that crazy person posting WOKE blinky lights. You and your cohorts here are saying "IGNORE HOW BAD THE SHOW IS! ITS GOT BLACK PEOPLE!"

    That's racist.
    It's weird, because you were agreeing and posting the same line of reasoning yesterday with that same poster, who went full mask off this morning and called shows like this a "full race and culture war." I've been a moderator of this subforum for a decade now, which is fucking insane, and it's exhausting as these posters cycle in and out, year after year, making the same complaints, year after year. I myself am a brown man who grew up in America, and all my pop culture touchstones have been white figures. Including white people "forced" into the roles of brown men and other roles they didn't belong. Hell, a white Russian man played the King of Siam in the King and I. And I love the King and I. The point is that it shouldn't be a big deal - except now that it's the reverse, it is a big deal, largely to white people. Except......it's been happening a long time, including the aforementioned "The Wiz," which came out in 1978, and the backlash to it has really only started in the past 10 years...as a political junkie as well, the dovetailing with the Tea Party's racism and xenophobia is unable to be ignored. It's all culture war bullshit, and it's been deliberately stoked by the likes of Steve Bannon and his ilk.

    FWIW, I haven't seen this show yet. I have no opinions of it as to its quality. What I do know is that a black dwarf or a black elf doesn't automatically lower its quality.

  15. #3615
    This constant bickering if a black actor is cast is so tiring "Oh noes their genetic physiology is all wrong" and all I can think of is who the fuck cares about skin color in a fantasy setting with magic and stuff that isn't even earth. I mean people have no problem accepting a drop of blood making an old sword smoke but a brown elf or dwarf is too much. Grow up.

    I liked the two episodes and look forward to next week.

  16. #3616
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    lol. wow, an 8.5 imdb rating. well, so you will not watch that much stuff in your life.

    and you will watch never some comedy (they are always underrated) and you will watch A LOT of super heroes and marvel stuff (they are always overrated).

    to use some imdb rating as an absolute criterium is imo, after being a cineast since more than 30 years, the most stupid thing one can do. using imdb ratings in some relative relations to rotten tomatoes or metacritic is fine. but using imdb‘s absolute rating values as some breakpoints to rate stuff for your own taste… „good luck“ (to quote Morgan Freeman here, from The Dark Knight).

    I use the 8.5 rating for the series, movies can go like down to 6 or even lower.

  17. #3617
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It's weird, because you were agreeing and posting the same line of reasoning yesterday with that same poster, who went full mask off this morning and called shows like this a "full race and culture war." I've been a moderator of this subforum for a decade now, which is fucking insane, and it's exhausting as these posters cycle in and out, year after year, making the same complaints, year after year. I myself am a brown man who grew up in America, and all my pop culture touchstones have been white figures. Including white people "forced" into the roles of brown men and other roles they didn't belong. Hell, a white Russian man played the King of Siam in the King and I. And I love the King and I. The point is that it shouldn't be a big deal - except now that it's the reverse, it is a big deal, largely to white people. Except......it's been happening a long time, including the aforementioned "The Wiz," which came out in 1978, and the backlash to it has really only started in the past 10 years...as a political junkie as well, the dovetailing with the Tea Party's racism and xenophobia is unable to be ignored. It's all culture war bullshit, and it's been deliberately stoked by the likes of Steve Bannon and his ilk.

    FWIW, I haven't seen this show yet. I have no opinions of it as to its quality. What I do know is that a black dwarf or a black elf doesn't automatically lower its quality.
    Interesting. I just looked at my post history and the only thing I said in this thread, or about this type of topic, yesterday was about "forced diversity" being a form of racism, which it is. Its insulting and racist to say that I cannot achieve unless a white person comes down from on high and "forces" me into a position I couldn't get on my own.

    Whether the person I was speaking to went crazy or not..... I have no control over that and I wouldn't think anyone should be held accoutable for what random people who aren't themselves say on the internet.

    As far as the bulk of your post, yes, racism exists, its still alive and well, however the part you are missing is the political horseshoe theory. The farther you go in either direction the more alike you are. I see the people supporting "forced diversity" as just as racist as the ones who don't want a black man in a show at all, the only difference is the out and out racists are more honest about it. They both believe we aren't qualified or good enough, the "woke" ones just think we need their help and then want to be praised for it.

    As far as not having seen the show. I watched the first episode and quit. It looked pretty (obviously where the money went) but the costumes looked cheap, the writing was really bad and the whole thing felt like it was going to be Wheel of Time dissappointing all over again.

    I am watching, and enjoying House of the Dragon. Quality wins.

  18. #3618
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Member when Eowyn snuck into the army to fight among her kin and then ended up killing the Witch King with the help of Merry? I member.

    The thing about you bigots and racists that can't accept women and black people in this world is that you are really missing one of the main themes of Tolkien's work: diversity and inclusion. The great victories in Middle Earth happened when Men, Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits come together. Look at The Fellowship! Tolkien was woke AF and you guys miss it because of some hang up about women and people of color. Sad really, but in this case even stranger if you claim to be a fan of Tolkien and miss this obvious theme of his works.
    What I mean is that strong female warrior archetypes are not part of Tolkien's story, just like Orc Wizards, Shadow Priests and Mages aren't either. I don't need to see those things in Tolkien just like I don't need to see OP Jaina Proudmore type female magicians or OP female undead like Sylvanas either. The point being those elements are not part of Tolkiens world and don't belong there. This isn't about ending oppression against Orc Wizards or "representation" for undead. Please stop with this pathetic pandering BS. Galadriel in Tolkien's actual work was one of the oldest, wisest and most respected Elves of the realm from the age of the trees. Her words were respected and honored among many of the Elven realms and she was not subject to bullying or disrespect in Elven society. She was the first to detect Sauron's presence in the 2nd age and on her word alone able to get the realm of Eregion established along with trying to reform an alliance among the various races, including the dwarves, to resist him. So this version of her is a step down from what was already in the books. Not to mention the action of Eowyn as an individual female were notable because they were prophesied long before the actual fact. And on top of that she was also called "The Lady of Rohan" or the "White Lady of Rohan" likely due to her complexion, since you brought it up.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-04 at 04:32 PM.

  19. #3619
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Member when Eowyn snuck into the army to fight among her kin and then ended up killing the Witch King with the help of Merry? I member.
    And that's what makes her exceptional.

    It wouldn't be a notable thing that she did if women warriors were merely ever-present in the rest of the world, and Riders of Rohan were the only culture that didn't allow their women into battle.

  20. #3620
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    What I mean is that strong female warrior archetypes are not part of Tolkien's story, just like Orc Wizards, Shadow Priests and Mages aren't either. I don't need to see those things in Tolkien just like I don't need to see Jaina Proudmore type female magicians or female undead either. The point being those elements are not part of Tolkiens world and don't belong there. This isn't about ending oppression against Orc Wizards or "representation" for undead. Please stop with this pathetic pandering BS. Galadriel in Tolkien's actual work was one of the oldest, wisest and most respected Elves of the realm from the age of the trees. Her words were respected and honored among many of the Elven realms and she was not subject to bullying or disrespect in Elven society. So this is version of her is a step down from what was already in the books.
    Ok, I get it. You are the gatekeeper to Tolkien's world and if it is not mentioned in the short stories, songs and poems it cannot exist in that world, particularly strong women (which there are examples of in his works, if not warrior women) or people of differing skin color. Once again it's a classic example of missing the forest because of the trees.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And that's what makes her exceptional.

    It wouldn't be a notable thing that she did if women warriors were merely ever-present in the rest of the world, and Riders of Rohan were the only culture that didn't allow their women into battle.
    Exactly, woke AF, out to trigger the incels.

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