1. #3681
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Sauron is ABSOLUTELY not an iconic villain (in literature or cinema). He’s more of a plot device in the novels than an actual character. Seriously, is “appeared in popular movie/series” really your benchmark for what makes a character (or actor) iconic? What a low low bar…

    I get it, you’re super into Orlando Bloom for some reason, but his accomplishments as an actor are pretty weak. It’s really weird that of all the actors in the Fellowship you’ve decided to hitch your wagon to the least impactful of the group. And yeah, Peter Mullan and Lenny Henry are without a doubt better actors than Bloom, and I’m sure plenty of the others who I’m not familiar with are as well.
    So LOTR is not an iconic masterpiece of work built around the battle of evil vs good (which KIND of include one or more villains)?
    And if you say yes which you should, would you argue Morgoth that 95% of the readers or viewers of movies are unaware of is, for good reasons, iconic? What are you arguing for exactly, that a villain has to have a cape, be in some Marvel movie made for 7y olds and up and fly into meteors and stuff or?

    Plot device my ass.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2022-09-05 at 01:03 AM.
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  2. #3682
    Quote Originally Posted by Valdhammer View Post
    I don’t know that I agree with that. I think they decided to diversify the world because it’s 2022 and it actually makes sense to do that.

    But they then did a huge disservice to everybody by not spending enough of that $1bn budget on proper writers, actors, and directors.
    They couldn't even hire a strong actor/actress to anchor the show properly. I'm very unimpressed by the performances so far, especially Galadriel which is arguably the most important character of the series so far. Elrond close 2nd.

    Now, I'm not yet quite sure if it's the writing the gives me these impressions and/or if it's the acting itself. Definitely the writing because of all the inconsistencies and weird decisions some characters are making like Galadriel jumping off a boat near the coast of New York and start swimming back to the UK.

    Couldn't they have made this scene on land? Perhaps the caravan of elfs could have been attacked by a warband of orcs and then she met Halbrand after that? Perhaps even kill all the other elfs to make an impact. I don't know. I'm not a writer but definitely not what they did.

    Elrond and Celebrimbor going to khazad-dum and then Celebrimbor being left at the door to go back alone. Where are the horses?

    Also why did they switch Celebrimbor and Elrond's roles? It should be Celebrimbor with close ties with the dwarves.
    Last edited by tikcol; 2022-09-05 at 01:07 AM.
    "In real life, unlike in Shakespeare, the sweetness of the rose depends upon the name it bears. Things are not only what they are. They are, in very important respects, what they seem to be"

    End of quote. Repeat the line.

  3. #3683
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    They couldn't even hire a strong actor/actress to anchor the show properly. I'm very unimpressed by the performances so far, especially Galadriel which is arguably the most important character of the series so far. Elrond close 2nd.

    Now, I'm not yet quite sure if it's the writing the gives me these impressions or if it's the acting itself. Definitely the writing because of all the inconsistencies and weird decisions some characters are making like Galadriel jumping off a boat near the coast of New York and start swimming back to the UK.

    Couldn't they have made this scene on land? Perhaps the caravan of elfs could have been attacked by a warband of orcs and then she met Halbrand after that? Perhaps even kill all the other elfs to make an impact. I don't know. I'm not a writer but definitely not what they did.

    Elrond and Celebrimbor going to khazad-dum and then Celebrimbor being left at the door to go back alone. Where are the horses?

    Also why did they switch Celebrimbor and Elrond's roles? It should be Celebrimbor with close ties with the dwarves.
    There are so many of these weird inconsistencies but the worst thing for me are the characters themselves. They’re all completely unsympathetic. I disliked Galadriel emphatically within the first 5 minutes because we weren’t given any reason to like her other than that we know she’s supposed to be a protagonist.

  4. #3684
    Quote Originally Posted by Valdhammer View Post
    I don’t know that I agree with that. I think they decided to diversify the world because it’s 2022 and it actually makes sense to do that.

    But they then did a huge disservice to everybody by not spending enough of that $1bn budget on proper writers, actors, and directors.
    Why does it make sense to do that? It literally makes zero sense to diversify, at random, a world that had already been created and had very specific instructions for it.

    So why did they do it? Why do that instead of hire good writers, actors, directors.


    wow dude

  5. #3685
    Quote Originally Posted by Valdhammer View Post
    There are so many of these weird inconsistencies but the worst thing for me are the characters themselves. They’re all completely unsympathetic. I disliked Galadriel emphatically within the first 5 minutes because we weren’t given any reason to like her other than that we know she’s supposed to be a protagonist.

    I guess this is what makes me completely disinterested in the story of the elves (which may be a pretty damn bad thing given the focus of the show), while I am really into the harfoots so far. The Harfoots, like the hobbits, are just naturally charismatic and likeable. I want good things to happen to them. They gave me reason to wish nothing bad on them.

    I can't say the same for any of the elves so far

  6. #3686
    Pit Lord rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Unified does nothing but attack people and called them ists and phobes, you can go through his posts and see he will make 1 comment on the topic at hand every dozen or so posts MAYBE. Just ignore him and his baiting and talk the topic.

    Also can we again focus on the fucking terrible sense of time/teleportation that goes on in the show? Like the only reference of time usuable is the meteor/meteor man coming down, other than that people teleport to and from locations (Galadriel + troops, Galadriel + troops on ship, Galadriel at sea?, Elrond, then Elrond + Celebrimbor) all while the Harfoots spend like a day doing things, and Arondir + the southern men plot goes through what, a couple of days doing various things? Like I get the Elven story is separated right now, but it is given me whiplash following travels that would take months while also watching days pass for two other groups.



    Also this shit made me laugh, like you spend a billion dollars between purchasing and producing and this is what we get? Bruh come on.
    this is what happens when you try to condense events from thousands of years apart into a single point in time, the thing that made me laugh was the whole meteorman crash landing, apparently the entire world saw this at the exact same time, aside from the geographical impossibilities of this, it makes no sense from a time/space perspective either, i could maybe understand it better if the camera shots were from different angles and showed different points across the fire trail showing some degree of movement in the object and different groups seeing different parts of it, but they all saw the exact same point of the 'meteor' at the exact same time, it's like the writers are using wormhole technology here.

    and yeah after watching a bit more and the whole 'bro's trip out' between elrond and celebrimbor, not only did they arrive at the doors of durin wearing the exact same outfit they were wearing prior to them moving out, but their hair was in the exact shape it was previously also, maybe get on to whoever their hair dressers are to get the recipe for that hairspray, strong enough to give duct tape a challenge.

    and that vid i found when i was looking for something else, it just popped up on recommended and genuinely the 'pop' sound effect when she gives it the old cranial blow hole treatment was genius.

  7. #3687
    Quote Originally Posted by Valdhammer View Post
    I don’t know that I agree with that. I think they decided to diversify the world because it’s 2022 and it actually makes sense to do that.

    But they then did a huge disservice to everybody by not spending enough of that $1bn budget on proper writers, actors, and directors.
    It being current year doesn't mean let's engage in death of the author it means new properties should follow that idea more assuming they take place in modern day and aren't medieval allegories.

    Also when the first trailers of a new show are talking about how much diversity is added instead of about story that's a giant red flag.

  8. #3688
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Why does it make sense to do that? It literally makes zero sense to diversify, at random, a world that had already been created and had very specific instructions for it.

    So why did they do it? Why do that instead of hire good writers, actors, directors.


    wow dude
    I guess I am just not at all bothered if some fantasy creatures in a fantasy world happen to be black, or Asian, or women or whatever the fuck else. To me these considerations are entirely meaningless and have no bearing on the quality of the show.

    This show is shit because of the writing, acting, and directing. Not because of the demographic attributes of the cast.

  9. #3689
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    I'm fine with the diversity per se even though I dont see a real realistic aspect of having 95% whites and 5% blacks so to speak in a non-globalized fantasy world.
    It's 2022, for me I noticed it but didnt mind it and wont even reflect on it 2-3 more episodes into the serie.
    Same as I didnt mind that all elves weren't super models and have long platina colored hair but some even had short hair cuts, SHOCKER !

    The story, production, acting and everything else matters more to me. I dont see myself as a purist even though I probably spent 30+h on the major LOTRS YouTube channels about lore etc.

    I mean lets face it. Back when Tolkien wrote his works it was by no means normal or even accepted to have a black hero. There were more dark colored "races" in some of his works, LOTR the corsairs as an example. When I come to think of it, I cant help but to draw parallels to how "Jesus" somehow always has to be white when its no way in hell he was.

    Times change, there is nothing automatically wrong with updating things in a fantasy world from older works. After all, watching an entire serie with the same stocky orcs and blond elves as the Jackson movies would have been freaking boring. Seen that, done that.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  10. #3690
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    So LOTR is not an iconic masterpiece of work built around the battle of evil vs good (which KIND of include one or more villains)?
    And if you say yes which you should, would you argue Morgoth that 95% of the readers or viewers of movies are unaware of is, for good reasons, iconic? What are you arguing for exactly, that a villain has to have a cape, be in some Marvel movie made for 7y olds and up and fly into meteors and stuff or?

    Plot device my ass.
    First off, you really need to get over the idea that everything Tolkien wrote was perfect and beyond criticism. He excelled at building up his fantasy setting, using his expertise in languages, myth, and history to really flesh out fantastical races and peoples, and of course his great ability to describe places really brought his stories to life. That being said, Sauron (as a character in LotR) is pretty weak, acting more as a nondescript force in the background while some of the obstacles the characters actually have to overcome are merely his servants. We can surmise that losing The Ring to Sauron would be catastrophic, but we never really know exactly why other than “bad guy would do bad guy stuff”. The strength in the conflict and the journey doesn’t revolve around Sauron, but rather the hardships that the protagonists have to endure and overcome. That’s what makes the narrative such a strong and memorable one.

    Much of what made Sauron (and Morgoth) an actual character isn’t part of LotR and instead came from writings like the Silmarillion. That’s where Tolkien’s Catholic background really framed out his villains as mirrors of Lucifer.

    A far more memorable, popular, and recognizable “dark lord” character was created when Tolkien was just a boy. An ancient, powerful evil from a distant land, capable of corrupting the minds of men and creatures alike, bending them to his will. An antagonist who uses his servants and great influence to cross the world in search of what he wants, whose evil must be opposed directly and indirectly by the protagonists of the story. Sound familiar? It’s Dracula as written by Bram Stoker almost 60 years before LotR was published.

    When it comes to “dark lord” types of characters in cinema, Darth Vader and Voldemort are also far more interesting, iconic, and recognizable examples than Sauron nowadays. And yeah sure, even the MCU has at least a couple more interesting villains than Sauron. Antagonists that actually have fleshed out motivations and directly contribute to the story itself.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2022-09-05 at 02:50 AM.

  11. #3691
    Stood in the Fire Greyfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    the thing that made me laugh was the whole meteorman crash landing, apparently the entire world saw this at the exact same time, aside from the geographical impossibilities of this, it makes no sense from a time/space perspective either, i could maybe understand it better if the camera shots were from different angles and showed different points across the fire trail showing some degree of movement in the object and different groups seeing different parts of it, but they all saw the exact same point of the 'meteor' at the exact same time, it's like the writers are using wormhole technology here.
    There's a theory that this is intentional and there's 2 meteors which would make sense if this meteor man is just 1 of the 2 blue wizards.

  12. #3692
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    It being current year doesn't mean let's engage in death of the author it means new properties should follow that idea more assuming they take place in modern day and aren't medieval allegories.
    Are you referring to Tolkien’s works as “medieval allegories”? If there was one thing Tolkien truly detested it was the idea of his stories being thought of as allegory. On top of that Tolkien made it clear that these ages of Middle-earth were removed from any recognizable time period of our history, so not at all a medieval setting.

    Talk about “death of the author”…

  13. #3693
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Are you referring to Tolkien’s works as “medieval allegories”? If there was one thing Tolkien truly detested it was the idea of his stories being thought of as allegory. On top of that Tolkien made it clear that these ages of Middle-earth were removed from any recognizable time period of our history, so not at all a medieval setting.

    Talk about “death of the author”…
    Tolkien's works pretty clearly have their roots in a combination of eu folklore and heavy influence of catholicism which is part of the reason he was so unwilling to say that anyone was beyond redemption even orcs. They are also substantially influenced by his experiences in the great war.

  14. #3694
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    First off, you really need to get over the idea that everything Tolkien wrote was perfect and beyond criticism. He excelled at building up his fantasy setting, using his expertise in languages, myth, and history to really flesh out fantastical races and peoples, and of course his great ability to describe places really brought his stories to life. That being said, Sauron (as a character in LotR) is pretty weak, acting more as a nondescript force in the background while some of the obstacles the characters actually have to overcome are merely his servants. We can surmise that losing The Ring to Sauron would be catastrophic, but we never really know exactly why other than “bad guy would do bad guy stuff”. The strength in the conflict and the journey doesn’t revolve around Sauron, but rather the hardships that the protagonists have to endure and overcome. That’s what makes the narrative such a strong and memorable one.

    Much of what made Sauron (and Morgoth) an actual character isn’t part of LotR and instead came from writings like the Silmarillion. That’s where Tolkien’s Catholic background really framed out his villains as mirrors of Lucifer.

    A far more memorable, popular, and recognizable “dark lord” character was created when Tolkien was just a boy. An ancient, powerful evil from a distant land, capable of corrupting the minds of men and creatures alike, bending them to his will. An antagonist who uses his servants and great influence to cross the world in search of what he wants, whose evil must be opposed directly and indirectly by the protagonists of the story. Sound familiar? It’s Dracula as written by Bram Stoker almost 60 years before LotR was published.

    When it comes to “dark lord” types of characters in cinema, Darth Vader and Voldemort are also far more interesting, iconic, and recognizable examples than Sauron nowadays. And yeah sure, even the MCU has at least a couple more interesting villains than Sauron. Antagonists that actually have fleshed out motivations and directly contribute to the story itself.
    I still would like to hear your view of Tolkiens most famous works cos that is what is the subject of this thread is, would be without Sauran whether it be a force or physical/pseudo physical pressence.
    "A dark force is rising" all those lines are a clear reference to Sauron. And then we have the abundance of direct reference by his names.
    I guess my point is that a villain does not by defualt have to be a in-your-face antagonist but can also be an omnipresent evil (again if in physical form or not differ depending on time). Is the Matrix not the villain in the movies simply cos its portrayed via Agent whatever the name was etc.?

    That Darth Vader is to you a far more interesting villain to you might be the case but what he shares with Sauron is that its well the perfect word is omnipresent.
    I just think that it doesnt have to be a epic battle between the hero and the villain in the end of a movie in order for there to be a villain that one can sense throughout the entire book/movie.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  15. #3695
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Tolkien's works pretty clearly have their roots in a combination of eu folklore and heavy influence of catholicism which is part of the reason he was so unwilling to say that anyone was beyond redemption even orcs. They are also substantially influenced by his experiences in the great war.
    Those were SOME of his influences, and that doesn’t make for allegory (much less medieval allegory).

    He also drew inspiration from non-European sources far removed from the medieval period, from the trees of Valinor being based on the Tree of Sun and Moon in the far east beyond India as described in the Alexandrian stories, to the crown of Gondor resembling the crowns of the pharaohs of ancient Egypt to Numenor itself deriving heavily from the Greek myths of Atlantis.

    The idea that his setting is medieval in any way is a gross misinterpretation of what Tolkien was trying to create.

  16. #3696
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Got around to watching the second episode, so far still pretty great though I can’t stand the hobbits.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #3697
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    this is what happens when you try to condense events from thousands of years apart into a single point in time, the thing that made me laugh was the whole meteorman crash landing, apparently the entire world saw this at the exact same time, aside from the geographical impossibilities of this, it makes no sense from a time/space perspective either, i could maybe understand it better if the camera shots were from different angles and showed different points across the fire trail showing some degree of movement in the object and different groups seeing different parts of it, but they all saw the exact same point of the 'meteor' at the exact same time, it's like the writers are using wormhole technology here.

    and yeah after watching a bit more and the whole 'bro's trip out' between elrond and celebrimbor, not only did they arrive at the doors of durin wearing the exact same outfit they were wearing prior to them moving out, but their hair was in the exact shape it was previously also, maybe get on to whoever their hair dressers are to get the recipe for that hairspray, strong enough to give duct tape a challenge.

    and that vid i found when i was looking for something else, it just popped up on recommended and genuinely the 'pop' sound effect when she gives it the old cranial blow hole treatment was genius.
    Isn't Middle-Earth flat and there's a certain 'magic' about it that would actually allow the world to see the meteor(s) at the same time?

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  18. #3698
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    Isn't Middle-Earth flat and there's a certain 'magic' about it that would actually allow the world to see the meteor(s) at the same time?
    At this point I think that yes, it's still flat. It doesn't get reshaped until Numenor's fuckery that leads to their destruction.

  19. #3699
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    At this point I think that yes, it's still flat. It doesn't get reshaped until Numenor's fuckery that leads to their destruction.
    WoW and The Sundering ruined Middle Earth.
    I said it first
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  20. #3700
    Quote Originally Posted by Valdhammer View Post
    I guess I am just not at all bothered if some fantasy creatures in a fantasy world happen to be black, or Asian, or women or whatever the fuck else. To me these considerations are entirely meaningless and have no bearing on the quality of the show.

    This show is shit because of the writing, acting, and directing. Not because of the demographic attributes of the cast.
    Well, what I don't understand is what Galadriel's plan for hunting down Sauron was exactly, another plot hole. At least nine highly trained elves were effortlessly taken down by a single troll that caught them by surprise. Think about it.

    For example, say they found Sauron hiding in some isolated fortress in the North...how in the world would any of them stand a chance against them? They had no Eagles, no Rings of Power, no Eärendil's starlight captured in a Phial, no human and dwarf and Hobbit and Istari allies to their rescue. Gandalf himself was no match for a weakened and disembodied Sauron. They'd need half an army at least to stand a chance against him, his Balrogs, his murderous giants, his massive orcs, possibly a rabid fire-breathing Dragon or two, etc.

    Thank the Valar that Galadriel actually "failed", because her "success" in finding Sauron would have likely ended her entire story in minutes and sparked a new world war. (And I don't get how that Elven king had the authority to grant random elves as he so pleased immediate access to Valinor either, because I thought only the Valar had that authority.)
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-09-05 at 05:32 AM.
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

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