1. #3721
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Well it got out early who was going to be in the first season and Elayne was clearly omitted. So it was clear from the get go that they were going to intentionally omit one of Rand's love interests from the get go. The main cast is generally OK but I'm not sure why they cast a black dude to play Padan Fain, only to neuter his entire story arc alongside Mat's, as it doesn't really give him an opportunity to show his chops and that story is a pivotal part of Mat's development as a character.
    I loved the actor they got to play Padan Fain and thought he did a fantastic job. I didn't like how they changed his story in Fal Dara, and not seeing his desperation and corruption through the first book as he trails the boys, but the actor I felt was really good. I blame the writers for the changes to him, but by Fal Dara the show didn't resemble the book at all, so changing him too was just a drop in the bucket.

    Elayne, well they took out all of Caemyln because it was too expensive to make another city (I mean their Tar Valon was so embarrassing that I can't imagine them trying to do 2 cities), so I guess not having her made sense for that. Caemyln was basically a focus on Rand, so not having it or Elayne when Rand wasn't the focus of the show does make a sad sorta sense.

    I imagine the LOTR writers were surprised how much backlash they got from character changes when they probably saw the time period they were writing as fertile ground for "make up whatever you want because you don't have a book to judge it against"

  2. #3722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thentix21 View Post
    The one with underlying issues here is you. That is all you guys can do is swing the racism bat anytime someone has a legitimate concern because you can't come up with any kind of meaningful debate or rebuttal or argument. What is worse is you guys are so petty and smug in your deliveries of them as well.

    No it is not racist to be against black dwarves or elves in a Tolkiens universe. Tolkien created his universe because medieval britain/europe lacked a significant fantasy world and he based it on MEDEIVAL britain europe. Where in the historical documents do you seem groups of black people roaming around integrated into society in medieval europe/britain? I'll wait.

    No I won't actually cause they never did. Africa has a HUGE wealth of their own mythological and supernatural entities, deities, being and so on and so on. Someone could do a lot with it. And you best believe, if someone made a mythological world based on african culture and there was a white zulu warrior or something, and someone had a problem with it, id be right behind them saying they have a legitimate concern and it should not be. There should not be black dwarves or black elves, just like there should not be white zulu warriors or a white mythological person in africa in medieval time. Stop using the racism/sexism/bigotry blah blah blah crap, you are only projecting.
    Someone's very touchy, because I am not calling anyone racist who has legit criticism. In fact I have seen some negative reviews here that are completely valid. Although I have questions about the spammer on the previous page. That guy looks sus. And look even your opinions I respect it, I agree with your sentiment, about its basis and setting of middle-earth that's a legit criticism, even if I disagree with it, but for myself I just do not care about the skin colour as much as some. MY big issue is peoples' hyper fixation on that alone and not on the quality of the work. I for one, as mentioned, LOVED Sophia Nomvete role as Princess Disa in the show, and while yes the sight of a black female dwarf is very new her performance made me feel like it didn't matter.

    The problem comes down to if them being a different skin colour affects your ability to enjoy the story, the acting, the sound, the cinematography, the visuals, if the answer is 'it does' then yes you may have a problem.


    Food for thought though Tolkien specifically stated that Gondorians were culturally Egyptian in some ways, while their religion was very Hebrew (or is that Hebraic? I cannot remember) would we be so offended to have Gondorians be darker skinned because of this or even mixed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Well it got out early who was going to be in the first season and Elayne was clearly omitted. So it was clear from the get go that they were going to intentionally omit one of Rand's love interests from the get go. The main cast is generally OK but I'm not sure why they cast a black dude to play Padan Fain, only to neuter his entire story arc alongside Mat's, as it doesn't really give him an opportunity to show his chops and that story is a pivotal part of Mat's development as a character.
    My biggest complain about Padan Fain was that he looked too swarve, and not as weaselly as I imagined. :P
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-04 at 01:40 PM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  3. #3723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Game of Thrones is WAAAAAAY more popular than LOTR. There is a reason Amazon wanted "their own Game of Thrones".

    HoD should be getting review bombed (if that is what is actually happening) way more than LOTR if what you're implying is true, but it isn't.

    WoT was protected pretty hard too by media and review sites, it simply didn't get as much press.
    GoT is only more popular because of recency bias, LOTR set the table for GoT to be successful as a TV series. But it's still the best selling book series in history, ASoIF isn't even in the same ballpark. Tolkien's work has also been immortalized in music as well. GoT will never have the long lasting cultural impact that LOTR has had and you'd be a fool to think so. His works are used as literary studies as well, which is something George R.R Martin will never have with his work.

  4. #3724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Game of Thrones is WAAAAAAY more popular than LOTR. There is a reason Amazon wanted "their own Game of Thrones".

    HoD should be getting review bombed (if that is what is actually happening) way more than LOTR if what you're implying is true, but it isn't.

    WoT was protected pretty hard too by media and review sites, it simply didn't get as much press.
    Yea but WoT wasnt review bombed, I should know I have the show at 5/10 and my review wasnt removed. <checks site> Nope still there :P
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  5. #3725
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    Thank god demonicessa is gone, was too busy trying to not see the eye cancer to think about blocking..

  6. #3726
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    Omg I just remembered this came out and watched the first two episodes. This series is definitely scratching an itch for me. I love seeing all the artwork that relates to elves and dwarves and their civilization. I'm looking forward to seeing Galadriel in action and the creation of the special forge thing and the rings of power!
    Last edited by PC2; 2022-09-04 at 03:37 PM.

  7. #3727
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    It can't be any of the wizards that we know about, unless the show is going to take massive dump on the LotR story.
    Could be one of the blues, we don't know anything about them..

  8. #3728
    Quote Originally Posted by Thentix21 View Post
    No it is not racist to be against black dwarves or elves in a Tolkiens universe. Tolkien created his universe because medieval britain/europe lacked a significant fantasy world and he based it on MEDEIVAL britain europe. Where in the historical documents do you seem groups of black people roaming around integrated into society in medieval europe/britain? I'll wait.
    That's not what he did at all. Not only did he abandon the idea of Middle-earth being a mythology for England early on (back when he was dabbling with the idea of time-traveling Saxon sailors), he specifically set his stories in a PRE-historic time on earth (knowing full well that the setting would never align with any actual geographical or historical reality). Trying to bring up historical documents is completely missing the point of what Tolkien was trying to do.

    Additionally, if you want to take the stretch of time that Tolkien put forth (setting the first and second ages roughly 18,000-6,000 years ago), that places much of these stories in a time before white skin was even prevalent across Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thentix21 View Post
    No I won't actually cause they never did. Africa has a HUGE wealth of their own mythological and supernatural entities, deities, being and so on and so on. Someone could do a lot with it. And you best believe, if someone made a mythological world based on african culture and there was a white zulu warrior or something, and someone had a problem with it, id be right behind them saying they have a legitimate concern and it should not be. There should not be black dwarves or black elves, just like there should not be white zulu warriors or a white mythological person in africa in medieval time. Stop using the racism/sexism/bigotry blah blah blah crap, you are only projecting.
    What does Africa have to do with anything? The actors in this show are British, not African. The fact that you can't help but deny them their identity as people born and raised in Europe is extremely problematic. Do you think people born in England with dark skin should never be allowed to participate in any sort of historical performances centered on the country of their birth? Can people with dark skin just never truly be European?

    See, this is the racist mentality that is on full view in this thread that you so casually want to brush under the rug. The idea that things like culture and history need to be kept "pure" in terms of skin color.

  9. #3729
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thentix21 View Post
    The one with underlying issues here is you. That is all you guys can do is swing the racism bat anytime someone has a legitimate concern because you can't come up with any kind of meaningful debate or rebuttal or argument. What is worse is you guys are so petty and smug in your deliveries of them as well.

    No it is not racist to be against black dwarves or elves in a Tolkiens universe. Tolkien created his universe because medieval britain/europe lacked a significant fantasy world and he based it on MEDEIVAL britain europe. Where in the historical documents do you seem groups of black people roaming around integrated into society in medieval europe/britain? I'll wait.

    No I won't actually cause they never did. Africa has a HUGE wealth of their own mythological and supernatural entities, deities, being and so on and so on. Someone could do a lot with it. And you best believe, if someone made a mythological world based on african culture and there was a white zulu warrior or something, and someone had a problem with it, id be right behind them saying they have a legitimate concern and it should not be. There should not be black dwarves or black elves, just like there should not be white zulu warriors or a white mythological person in africa in medieval time. Stop using the racism/sexism/bigotry blah blah blah crap, you are only projecting.
    Those same people would complain if there was a white casting in an african myth setting...

  10. #3730
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Interesting. I didn't know the moderators of the forum where allowed to post like this and show their preference.

    As a person from the community you are trying to protect, we don't need your protection.

    As far as HoD, there may have been comments about it, but you'll notice they all stopped. Why is that? Why aren't people upset about that show vs this one? Could it be that HBO did its diversity well and didn't sacrifice their story for it? That they focused on making a good show with a good story first?


    This does explain a lot about this forum though.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There were so, so many things on that wall.
    They stopped literally because the creators of the show had to come out and reassure race baiters that these black Targaeryens married and intermingled into the Targ family. This allowed these "critics" to dismiss them as "not really Targs" so who cares at that point.

    Also, being a moderator doesn't mean I don't have an opinion. And my opinion is firmly that casting actors of particular races only matters in pieces where the race is an integral part of the character, or historical pieces, and only then if the historical piece is going for accuracy. I didn't care when Michael Jackson remade the Wizard of Oz with black actors, and I didn't care when they made a musical play called Hamilton about the Founding Fathers with black and brown actors because......well, it was a rap musical which took liberties.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2022-09-04 at 01:56 PM. Reason: edited to fix an unintentional negative

  11. #3731
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    They stopped literally because the creators of the show had to come out and reassure race baiters that these black Targaeryens married and intermingled into the Targ family. This allowed these "critics" to dismiss them as "not really Targs" so who cares at that point.

    Also, being a moderator doesn't mean I don't have an opinion. And my opinion is firmly that casting actors of particular races only matters in pieces where the race is an integral part of the character, or historical pieces, and only then if the historical piece is going for accuracy. I didn't care when Michael Jackson remade the Wizard of Oz with black actors, and I didn't care when they made a musical play called Hamilton about the Founding Fathers with black and brown actors because......well, it was a rap musical which took liberties.
    So HBO explained how the changes to their show made sense and their critics stopped criticizing? Are you admitting that LOTR has failed to show how their changes make sense and that is why they are still be criticized?

    Amazon did make a pretty big push when the show was in early promotion about it being true to Tolkien and it not being something they were taking great liberties with. They promoted it that way right up until the first photos and trailers came out, then switched to "diversity and inclusion".

    By your own description, would you not agree that marketting it one way to fans of LOTR and then switching to "something that wasn't going for accuracy", was and is something fans of LOTR can be upset about?


    And to be precise, since that seems so lacking here. Most of the complaints of the casting is that it looks like Amazon spends more time and effort on "diversity and inclusion" instead of "writing and story-telling". Nobody (outside of a tiny minority) cares if black and brown people are in LOTR, or WoT, or GoT. However when it looks like the inclusion of those people is being done as a shield to prevent commentary and criticism of their poor writing, direction, and story-telling, people who care about the product that is being made get upset.

    Me personally, I don't care that much about LOTR. I like the story well enough, but Wheel of Time was my big one and Amazon did the exact same thing. Screwed up the story, did a terrible job on casting, costuming, dialogue, story-telling and made a mockery of Robert Jordan's work.

    I'm sure LOTR fans feel that way right now, and they see your comments as just as racist as that crazy person posting WOKE blinky lights. You and your cohorts here are saying "IGNORE HOW BAD THE SHOW IS! ITS GOT BLACK PEOPLE!"

    That's racist.

  12. #3732
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    The cutest thing about the "censorship" complaints is that show still has favorable ratings on other sites. I guess Amazon controls every single review site on the internet.

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  13. #3733
    Personally the problem is Hollywood always takes liberties with source material. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
    This isn't really new, however, in general, the ones that work the best are those that stick closest to the source material.
    And most of the time that boils down to talent on the part of those who are making the adaptation.

    Notable examples:
    Clockwork Orange
    The Shining
    One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest
    Apocalypse Now
    Jaws
    Harry Potter
    Lord of the Rings
    etc

    All based on books, all changed in some way from the source material. All classic movies.
    All directed and written by top talent and featuring top tier actors.

    On the other hand what you have here in the streaming era, is that streaming companies are just grabbing folks and putting out "stuff". This is why so much of what is on streaming is worthless. As a comparison, HBO is not a streaming company and were the first to make their own series. And they did that by again hiring top talent in directing, writing and acting which resulted in many other cable channels following the trend. This has produced many of the most memorable television series of the last 30 years including the Sopranos, the Wire, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, etc. In fact, of the streaming companies, Neflix also did a good job in the beginning as well producing well known series like Narcos, Orange is the New Black, Stranger Things, etc. But nowadays, most of these steaming companies are just throwing money around and unproven talent just to churn out more content. And no matter how much they try and market these things as significant or ground breaking for whatever reason, the results speak for themselves. HOD was developed by the writer of GOT, George RR Martin and pitched as a prequel to HBO. Obviously George is a talented writer and producer. Rings of Power was produced by two Showrunners and a Producer with little to no accomplishments of note. That makes a difference. And this is why I don't pay attention to that marketing BS that these companies put out. It is 2022. This isn't about being 'groundbreaking' as opposed to just making a good show.

    But beyond that, the idea that of making story about the second age from Tolkien, covering thousands of years and compressing it is silly. It is beyond dumb because it removes most of what makes that story work in the lore to begin with. Starting with the Elves as the pinnacle of Eru Iluvatars creation on Arda and the target of Melkor and Sauron's corruption. Followed by the jealousy sown by them using the difference in life span between humans and other mortals and Elves. All of this is a well connected story line and changing one element totally removes the justification for the other. They could easily have simply established the lore of the second age in the beginning, gone into the backstory of the Elves and the previous ages and then just focused on one smaller time period. That would have been much better as an introduction to the 2nd age as the basis of building a franchise around it. But instead they chose the alternate approach, to be more like House of the Dragon, which skips around a lot in time as it covers about 10-15 years of time in the first season. And without having a talented team, such a production is subject to being disjointed and choppy as you jump around all over the place following various plots. Which is especially true for Rings of Power because there are so many events from the second age they are trying to put all in one series, when they could easily just have focused on one time period, one kingdom, one dynasty and actually done that for multiple seasons. Most television series lasting multiple seasons cover only maybe a few years of time in universe, so that would definitely have been a more reasonable pacing. That is why there is no sense of time in this show because they jump around and compress everything in real time. So it is not shocking to me that this show would succeed or fail in being able to pull that off. And this is what they should have been talking about in the marketing of the show instead of this other BS like it is the first show to put x people on TV. Two other series also premiered around the same time with similar changes and both have decent reviews: Sandman, House of the Dragon.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-04 at 03:11 PM.

  14. #3734
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    Why was this post infracted when the person she is responding to wasn't? Are the mods at MMO Champion sexist and racist? You infracted an asian female when the white male she was responding to said way worse things about her. Does MMO Champion support sexism and racism?
    I’m not white I’m black.

    As to the show, there needs to be some logical consistency to how you make changes. If a Hobbit that has Asian features came into the shire and married and had children that then looked like the biological offspring of their parents, that gives consistency. It opens up the question of "are there communities of asian looking hobbits? Can we see them and see what stories they have?"
    And the hobbits are Mabye the only group this would apply to depending on how long they live and how fast they breed dwarfs and elf’s would breed way to slowly to effectively mix out skin tones if they were made with them from the start and the humans are likely a mix match.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #3735
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Why can't an Elf or Dwarf child occasionally be born with dark skin, just as Elves are occasionally born with red hair?
    That's fine if it's assumed the peoples of middle earth had the genetic physiology of cats.

  16. #3736
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Personally the problem is Hollywood always takes liberties with source material. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
    This isn't really new, however, in general, the ones that work the best are those that stick closest to the source material.
    And most of the time that boils down to talent on the part of those who are making the adaptation.

    Notable examples:
    Clockwork Orange
    The Shining
    One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest
    Apocalypse Now
    Jaws
    Harry Potter


    All based on books, all changed in some way from the source material. All classic movies.
    All directed and written by top talent and featuring top tier actors.
    Don't forget that we also had a great adaptation in The Expanse, which unfortunately got cancelled and had a great cast and really intriguing plot behind it that is adapted well from the books (apparently, I haven't read them yet). I thought Chris Pratt's adaptation of The Terminal List was alright, though not a particularly great show and of course the usual pissant journalists lambasted it, proving that they didn't understand the obvious themes of the show.

  17. #3737
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I’m not white I’m black.



    And the hobbits are Mabye the only group this would apply to depending on how long they live and how fast they breed dwarfs and elf’s would breed way to slowly to effectively mix out skin tones if they were made with them from the start and the humans are likely a mix match.
    Fair enough, my apologies. I tend to assume most people complaining about racism on here are white boys who have a black friend.

  18. #3738
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    So HBO explained how the changes to their show made sense and their critics stopped criticizing? Are you admitting that LOTR has failed to show how their changes make sense and that is why they are still be criticized?

    Amazon did make a pretty big push when the show was in early promotion about it being true to Tolkien and it not being something they were taking great liberties with. They promoted it that way right up until the first photos and trailers came out, then switched to "diversity and inclusion".

    By your own description, would you not agree that marketting it one way to fans of LOTR and then switching to "something that wasn't going for accuracy", was and is something fans of LOTR can be upset about?

    This the crux. Marketing is the shows downfall.

    Shadow of Mordor is a game that took lots of liberties with the story and lore. It did get backlash, including the sexy shelob. Difference is that the developers didn't go around claiming how faithful it was and even made new characters themselves to do what they want with.

    If Amazon had gone out from the start with proper marketing, there would still be backlash, but way less. Any show receive backlash so that can't be avoided when it's big enough of a show.

    Then the actors and Amazon doubled down on it and started to attack fans. It never works. But they wanted to cash in on the"faithful lotr" hype.
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  19. #3739
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    So HBO explained how the changes to their show made sense and their critics stopped criticizing? Are you admitting that LOTR has failed to show how their changes make sense and that is why they are still be criticized?
    Whether it stops criticism or not isn't the point, since that would always be out of their control. Explaining how and why it works the way it does on the fictional setting would help bridge understanding to its intent as a creative decision that fits Middle Earth. Much like how the Behind the Scenes dvds helped people understand Peter Jackson's creative process and help bridge an understanding and acceptance to changes.

    It helps to have an explanation, even if the explanation isn't perfect or even if the changes deserve criticism *cough* the Hobbit *cough*

    It wouldn't be as controversial as say, telling everyone they're going to be faithful to the books, then marketting the show with how they modernized the fiction with diversity, and squelching reviews. The PR for Rings of Power is absolutely tone deaf, and in the show's own analogy, fanning the flames rather than blowing them out.

    The show isn't bad. The marketting is the real source of the problem, and its like they intentionally did it for the buzz it'd generate while denouncing any criticisms by flaunting a moral high ground. Its literally political tactics.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-04 at 03:38 PM.

  20. #3740
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Whether it stops criticism or not isn't the point, since that would always be out of their control. Explaining how and why it works the way it does on the fictional setting would help bridge understanding to its intent as a creative decision that fits Middle Earth. Much like how the Behind the Scenes dvds helped people understand Peter Jackson's creative process and help bridge an understanding and acceptance to changes.

    It helps to have an explanation, even if the explanation isn't perfect or even if the changes deserve criticism *cough* the Hobbit *cough*

    It wouldn't be as controversial as say, telling everyone they're going to be faithful to the books, then marketting the show with how they modernized the fiction with diversity, and squelching reviews. The PR for Rings of Power is absolutely tone deaf, and in the show's own analogy, fanning the flames rather than blowing them out.
    The point is world building. Tolkien spent a lot of time thinking of the origins and backgrounds for these places peoples and cultures beyond simply one story.

    That is why he gets the respect and why he is the forefather of things like MMOs, RPGs and DnD because they all depend on elaborate world building to set the story in. And that all revolves around diversity in cultures, traditions, gestures, languages, song, dance, species, religious beliefs, etc. It is a well defined and fleshed out characteristic of the genre today, right down to the maps and zones of WOW and all the different types of architectures local flora and fauna and so forth. But this is the result of 60 years of development and evolution since Tolkien released his work. Modernizing Tolkien to suddenly have Orc Wizards and Shamans and Shadow Priests would be similarly stupid, but that is what happens when you focus on such a thing. When Tolkien wrote his stories, those ideas were not present and his story has a very unique narrative and setting, which is what people want to see. If I want to see strong female Warriors I can make one in WOW which is full of them. But that isn't what I expect to see in Tolkien because that isn't what his story was about.

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