Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Specialka]

Did game of thrones or the new house of dragons have black people? Did people think that was "woke"? Why is one fantasy setting okay, but the other not? Aren't the two very similar in terms of magic dragons and what not? Haven't seen GoT but I know it was very popular

There are but there were not inserted for the sake of diversity. That's the difference.

[Veggie50]

As I said above, much like a tall dwarf.

Can it happen? Sure, but you're going to need to explain it. The world you are speaking of has dragons, wizards, etc. The audience buys into that when they delve into the story. If all the elves are pale, then you need to explain the dark skinned one. If all the dwarves are short, you need to explain the tall one.

If all the dragons are evil monsters, the polite, kind one is going to need an explanation.

When you have a world with the rules set up, and then you break them, you need to explain WHY they broke or else the audience loses their ability to "accept this world". You can do it, but you need to give it a reason that works inside the world you are playing in.

Should they explain why some elves have big feet and others have small feet?

Only features you find relevant need to be explained. In my view their colour simply isn't relevant, in yours it is.

[jonnysensible]

There are but there were not inserted for the sake of diversity. That's the difference.

had the exact same complaints in the got thread about black people as there are in this one.

[Al Gorefiend]

Omg you havent seen GoT!?

Seen it as in blasted all over social media and merchandise yes.

Actually sat down and watched it? No, it's been on my HBO Max watch list for a few years now, it really doesn't look all that fun to me. Like Skyrim if it was a soap opera.

[Veggie50]

That mostly because those that get that impression forget about the context of the settings. Classic mistake.

Do elaborate on how the context of a fictional setting is an issue. Because I genuinely don't see it.

[Orby]

By your own subjective metrics you've deduced, that any review below 4 cannot be constructive by default?
Honestly, I started watching the series without the whole "LotR purist" background. And still, couldn't be disappointed more. From me, it's been 3/10 at best. I really struggled watching these 2 episodes which saddened me deeply.
CGI, as beatiful as it is (after all it's 90mils poured into a single episode), it's absolutely EVERYWHERE. Authenticity is almost non-existent. Dialogs are probably the worst part of this show so far. Character development is just a massive exposition.

These two episode can easily be summed up with: tell, don't show, which is an anti-pattern of story-writing, backed with a hollywood-scale budget.

I never said below 4 cannot be subjective or anything, all reviews are constructive when they are written constructively, I was merely giving an example.

Tell, don't show isn't inheritably bad, its become such a crutch with what people who don't know what they are talking about use when they feel with someone is too obsessed with thinking they are being preached to instead of shutting up and just showing us. That's not to say that I am totally for it, its a matter of knowing when to show and when to tell.

There have been good videos on when tell don't show can be a force for good.

[RevolverLynx]

Seen it as in blasted all over social media and merchandise yes.

Actually sat down and watched it? No, it's been on my HBO Max watch list for a few years now, it really doesn't look all that fun to me. Like Skyrim if it was a soap opera.

GoT is the best fantasy series of all time sofar, it was addictive.

[Sialina]

Did game of thrones or the new house of dragons have black people? Did people think that was "woke"? Why is one fantasy setting okay, but the other not? Aren't the two very similar in terms of magic dragons and what not? Haven't seen GoT but I know it was very popular

In house of the dragon it's very well made and feels natural, Coralis is married into the family because he is a lord with a great fleet. Their children are mixed, it all works like you would expect it to in the setting. That is the big difference for me, no complaints about House of the dragon, enjoying it very much.

[Specialka]

Which is mindboggling when it comes from people so adamant that they're high-minded book readers. I find the need to have everything explained from the start is typically an American trait, but it seems to be becoming somewhat more prevalent.


Are you sure? Why is Corlys Velaryon a black guy when he was originally white then?

Because the Got world is already far more mixed and diverse than Lotr.

[RevolverLynx]

Because the Got world is already far more mixed and diverse than Lotr.

Those middle eastern folk? What they were called?

[Al Gorefiend]

GoT is the best fantasy series of all time sofar, it was addictive.

I'll just take your word for it

- - - Updated - - -

Those middle eastern folk? What they were called?

The Haradrim

[Veggie50]

Seen it as in blasted all over social media and merchandise yes.

Actually sat down and watched it? No, it's been on my HBO Max watch list for a few years now, it really doesn't look all that fun to me. Like Skyrim if it was a soap opera.

GoT = skyrim as a soap opera is my favourite take ^^

[Rocksteady 87]

The difference between the Rings of Power and Game of Thrones is that the diversity in GoT is consistent and makes sense.

In GoT, the skin color (and even hair and eye color) are distinctive traits of specific regions of the world. Hell, it's even a main driving point of the story at the start that leads to Ned Stark being executed. You'll notice that next to no one complained about it there because it made sense.

In RoP it's none of that. Just random actors thrown together in a ridiculous and inconsistent ways. That's where the problem is. It's not racism, it's just confusing and nonsensical. Hence lots of people bringing it up and trying to make sense of it. If they had, for example, decided that all of the dwarves would be played by black actors and all of the elves would be played by Hispanic ones, that would be odd but at least it would be consistent and make sense within the context of the world.

People in small societies with little to no travel breed with people in the same societies, leading to people who look a hell of a lot a like. Even if there's the occasional outlier, their traits will quickly be absorbed and blended in within a few generations. It's not rocket science or racist.

[Al Gorefiend]

The difference between the Rings of Power and Game of Thrones is that the diversity in GoT is consistent and makes sense.

In GoT, the skin color (and even hair and eye color) are distinctive traits of specific regions of the world. Hell, it's even a main driving point of the story at the start that leads to Ned Stark being executed. You'll notice that next to no one complained about it there because it made sense.

In RoP it's none of that. Just random actors thrown together in a ridiculous and inconsistent ways. That's where the problem is. It's not racism, it's just confusing and nonsensical. Hence lots of people bringing it up and trying to make sense of it. If they had, for example, decided that all of the dwarves would be played by black actors and all of the elves would be played by Hispanic ones, that would be odd but at least it would be consistent and make sense within the context of the world.

But it's not a real world? It is a fantasy world. Why would there need to be regional distinction between people with different skin colors? Just because it works that way on Earth, doesn't mean it has to in a magical fantasy setting.

[kenn9530]

The difference between the Rings of Power and Game of Thrones is that the diversity in GoT is consistent and makes sense.

In GoT, the skin color (and even hair and eye color) are distinctive traits of specific regions of the world. Hell, it's even a main driving point of the story at the start that leads to Ned Stark being executed. You'll notice that next to no one complained about it there because it made sense.

In RoP it's none of that. Just random actors thrown together in a ridiculous and inconsistent ways. That's where the problem is. It's not racism, it's just confusing and nonsensical. Hence lots of people bringing it up and trying to make sense of it. If they had, for example, decided that all of the dwarves would be played by black actors and all of the elves would be played by Hispanic ones, that would be odd but at least it would be consistent and make sense within the context of the world.

People in small societies with little to no travel breed with people in the same societies, leading to people who look a hell of a lot a like. Even if there's the occasional outlier, their traits will quickly be absorbed and blended in within a few generations. It's not rocket science or racist.

If you complain about the colour of an actors skin in a fantasy made up world then your racist plain and simple, not once has even tolkien said there were not any black elves in middle earth so its not against the lore of the world to have them.

The complaints are nothing to do with anything about the series and more to do what the hardcore fan base thinks the series should be or feel like, too many people just complain about everything.

[InfiniteCharger]

But it's not a real world? It is a fantasy world. Why would there need to be regional distinction between people with different skin colors? Just because it works that way on Earth, doesn't mean it has to in a magical fantasy setting.

Dude. You don't know anything about GOT. You said it yourself. Please give it a rest. The whole story of this era within GOT is that a group of people from another land, with specific features dominate Westeros. And they are able to dominate due to their dragons. It is a core part of the story written by George RR Martin Himself. People can write whatever the f**k they want to write in their books. Why do people keep clinging to these morality arguments on these things as if any writer can't generally write any kind of story they want? Among these invading houses or families were the Targaryens and the Velareyons. Both of whom had the same distinct features in the book. George decided to change one of those families and make them all black. That is what this is about. They didn't just change one random person in the family.

Again, nobody is obligated to include any specific combination of features or populations for any reason in any work of fiction. This nonsense "rule" doesn't exist and doesn't even belong in this discussion.

On one level it is a question of live action adaptations being able to argue a higher "moral" ground for including certain individual features and populations due to casting. On another level it is a question about what is being chosen to be adapted as there are plenty of stories out there across various forms of media with certain kinds of features already built in.

In this particular case, you are talking about two well known and popular European authors being expected to uphold and reflect diversity from all over the world in books primarily written in English based on European history, myth and legend. And it makes no sense, no more than it would to demand the same from Chinese or African authors.

[tikcol]

Same bad faith posters keep derailing the thread to speak about skin color because they know there are some real problems with the show that they do not wish to discuss.

Some of them even openly admit they didn't even watch the show. So they come here for only that purpose which is really sad.

Do you know why people in general don't have a problem with House of the Dragon and some dark-skinned characters there?

If it wasn't obvious enough, it's because the show is actually good. Reducing the criticism of Rings of Power to "you don't like dark skinned people" is the most disingenuous train of thought you could employ. But here you are doing it anyway.

You're actually even contradicting yourself. It's like you're admitting the reason people don't like Rings of Power is because it's trash, not because of some people of color. Considering people don't have the same problem with House of the Dragon.

[Al Gorefiend]

Dude. You don't know anything about GOT. You said it yourself. Please give it a rest.
The whole story of this era within GOT is that a group of people from another land, with specific features dominate Westeros.
And they are able to dominate due to their dragons. It is a core part of the story written by George RR Martin Himself.
People can write whatever the f**k they want to write in their books. Why do people keep clinging to these morality arguments on these things.
Among these invading houses or families were the Targaryens and the Velareyons. Both of whom had the same distinct features in the book.
George decided to change one of those families and make them all black. That is what this is about. They didn't just change one random person in the family.

The lore and story of GoT is irrelevant in a conversation about why one fantasy setting says black people are okay, but another one has everyone up in arms.
I really don't care how you want to justify it by going into the details of a story I'm disinterested in.

Its not real, it's all in your head that LoTR elves have to be white.

[DarkAmbient]

Can we not move on from this shit, like c'mon...

[InfiniteCharger]

The lore and story of GoT is irrelevant in a conversation about why one fantasy setting says black people are okay, but another one has everyone up in arms.
I really don't care how you want to justify it by going into the details of a story I'm disinterested in.

Its not real, it's all in your head that LoTR elves have to be white.

You contradict yourself, like you said it is not real and therefore it does not have to reflect reality in any specific way.
The point here is whether or not show like this need to change the source material in order to inject something that was not there previously.
It is not a simple discussion, but in the case of Lord of the Rings, the issue is that the author intended his work to stay as he wrote it.
And having a whole bunch of studios making changes to it and reinterpreting it and rebooting it is just not what he wanted.
Diversity here is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of trying to justify changes to his work and going against his wishes.
It is basically trying to turn this into an argument of morality which is purely pathetic and silly.

If the work is immoral or problematic then don't adapt it. Adapt something that is more fitting those 'moral' standards.
But that doesn't work when this is one of the best selling books of all time and a huge mega corporation wants to cash in on it.
They don't care about what he wrote. They only care about the name and being able to gain profits on using the name no matter if it is garbage or not.

Also George RR Martin is alive and helping make HOD while Tolkien is dead. Both HOD and ROP are supposed to be direct prequels to books and other previous adaptations. One is a literal canon prequel and the other is not.