1. #3741
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The point is world building. Tolkien spent a lot of time thinking of the origins and backgrounds for these places peoples and cultures beyond simply one story.

    That is why he gets the respect and why he is the forefather of things like MMOs, RPGs and DnD because they all depend on elaborate world building to set the story in. And that all revolves around diversity in cultures, traditions, gestures, languages, song, dance, species, religious beliefs, etc. It is a well defined and fleshed out characteristic of the genre today, right down to the maps and zones of WOW and all the different types of architectures local flora and fauna and so forth. But this is the result of 60 years of development and evolution since Tolkien released his work. Modernizing Tolkien to suddenly have Orc Wizards and Shamans and Shadow Priests would be similarly stupid, but that is what happens when you focus on such a thing. When Tolkien wrote his stories, those ideas were not present and his story has a very unique narrative and setting, which is what people want to see. If I want to see strong female Warriors I can make one in WOW which is full of them. But that isn't what I expect to see in Tolkien because that isn't what his story was about.
    Member when Eowyn snuck into the army to fight among her kin and then ended up killing the Witch King with the help of Merry? I member.

    The thing about you bigots and racists that can't accept women and black people in this world is that you are really missing one of the main themes of Tolkien's work: diversity and inclusion. The great victories in Middle Earth happened when Men, Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits come together. Look at The Fellowship! Tolkien was woke AF and you guys miss it because of some hang up about women and people of color. Sad really, but in this case even stranger if you claim to be a fan of Tolkien and miss this obvious theme of his works.

  2. #3742
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    And to be precise, since that seems so lacking here. Most of the complaints of the casting is that it looks like Amazon spends more time and effort on "diversity and inclusion" instead of "writing and story-telling". Nobody (outside of a tiny minority) cares if black and brown people are in LOTR, or WoT, or GoT. However when it looks like the inclusion of those people is being done as a shield to prevent commentary and criticism of their poor writing, direction, and story-telling, people who care about the product that is being made get upset.

    Me personally, I don't care that much about LOTR. I like the story well enough, but Wheel of Time was my big one and Amazon did the exact same thing. Screwed up the story, did a terrible job on casting, costuming, dialogue, story-telling and made a mockery of Robert Jordan's work.

    I'm sure LOTR fans feel that way right now, and they see your comments as just as racist as that crazy person posting WOKE blinky lights. You and your cohorts here are saying "IGNORE HOW BAD THE SHOW IS! ITS GOT BLACK PEOPLE!"

    That's racist.
    It's weird, because you were agreeing and posting the same line of reasoning yesterday with that same poster, who went full mask off this morning and called shows like this a "full race and culture war." I've been a moderator of this subforum for a decade now, which is fucking insane, and it's exhausting as these posters cycle in and out, year after year, making the same complaints, year after year. I myself am a brown man who grew up in America, and all my pop culture touchstones have been white figures. Including white people "forced" into the roles of brown men and other roles they didn't belong. Hell, a white Russian man played the King of Siam in the King and I. And I love the King and I. The point is that it shouldn't be a big deal - except now that it's the reverse, it is a big deal, largely to white people. Except......it's been happening a long time, including the aforementioned "The Wiz," which came out in 1978, and the backlash to it has really only started in the past 10 years...as a political junkie as well, the dovetailing with the Tea Party's racism and xenophobia is unable to be ignored. It's all culture war bullshit, and it's been deliberately stoked by the likes of Steve Bannon and his ilk.

    FWIW, I haven't seen this show yet. I have no opinions of it as to its quality. What I do know is that a black dwarf or a black elf doesn't automatically lower its quality.

  3. #3743
    This constant bickering if a black actor is cast is so tiring "Oh noes their genetic physiology is all wrong" and all I can think of is who the fuck cares about skin color in a fantasy setting with magic and stuff that isn't even earth. I mean people have no problem accepting a drop of blood making an old sword smoke but a brown elf or dwarf is too much. Grow up.

    I liked the two episodes and look forward to next week.

  4. #3744
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    lol. wow, an 8.5 imdb rating. well, so you will not watch that much stuff in your life.

    and you will watch never some comedy (they are always underrated) and you will watch A LOT of super heroes and marvel stuff (they are always overrated).

    to use some imdb rating as an absolute criterium is imo, after being a cineast since more than 30 years, the most stupid thing one can do. using imdb ratings in some relative relations to rotten tomatoes or metacritic is fine. but using imdb‘s absolute rating values as some breakpoints to rate stuff for your own taste… „good luck“ (to quote Morgan Freeman here, from The Dark Knight).

    I use the 8.5 rating for the series, movies can go like down to 6 or even lower.

  5. #3745
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It's weird, because you were agreeing and posting the same line of reasoning yesterday with that same poster, who went full mask off this morning and called shows like this a "full race and culture war." I've been a moderator of this subforum for a decade now, which is fucking insane, and it's exhausting as these posters cycle in and out, year after year, making the same complaints, year after year. I myself am a brown man who grew up in America, and all my pop culture touchstones have been white figures. Including white people "forced" into the roles of brown men and other roles they didn't belong. Hell, a white Russian man played the King of Siam in the King and I. And I love the King and I. The point is that it shouldn't be a big deal - except now that it's the reverse, it is a big deal, largely to white people. Except......it's been happening a long time, including the aforementioned "The Wiz," which came out in 1978, and the backlash to it has really only started in the past 10 years...as a political junkie as well, the dovetailing with the Tea Party's racism and xenophobia is unable to be ignored. It's all culture war bullshit, and it's been deliberately stoked by the likes of Steve Bannon and his ilk.

    FWIW, I haven't seen this show yet. I have no opinions of it as to its quality. What I do know is that a black dwarf or a black elf doesn't automatically lower its quality.
    Interesting. I just looked at my post history and the only thing I said in this thread, or about this type of topic, yesterday was about "forced diversity" being a form of racism, which it is. Its insulting and racist to say that I cannot achieve unless a white person comes down from on high and "forces" me into a position I couldn't get on my own.

    Whether the person I was speaking to went crazy or not..... I have no control over that and I wouldn't think anyone should be held accoutable for what random people who aren't themselves say on the internet.

    As far as the bulk of your post, yes, racism exists, its still alive and well, however the part you are missing is the political horseshoe theory. The farther you go in either direction the more alike you are. I see the people supporting "forced diversity" as just as racist as the ones who don't want a black man in a show at all, the only difference is the out and out racists are more honest about it. They both believe we aren't qualified or good enough, the "woke" ones just think we need their help and then want to be praised for it.

    As far as not having seen the show. I watched the first episode and quit. It looked pretty (obviously where the money went) but the costumes looked cheap, the writing was really bad and the whole thing felt like it was going to be Wheel of Time dissappointing all over again.

    I am watching, and enjoying House of the Dragon. Quality wins.

  6. #3746
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Member when Eowyn snuck into the army to fight among her kin and then ended up killing the Witch King with the help of Merry? I member.

    The thing about you bigots and racists that can't accept women and black people in this world is that you are really missing one of the main themes of Tolkien's work: diversity and inclusion. The great victories in Middle Earth happened when Men, Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits come together. Look at The Fellowship! Tolkien was woke AF and you guys miss it because of some hang up about women and people of color. Sad really, but in this case even stranger if you claim to be a fan of Tolkien and miss this obvious theme of his works.
    What I mean is that strong female warrior archetypes are not part of Tolkien's story, just like Orc Wizards, Shadow Priests and Mages aren't either. I don't need to see those things in Tolkien just like I don't need to see OP Jaina Proudmore type female magicians or OP female undead like Sylvanas either. The point being those elements are not part of Tolkiens world and don't belong there. This isn't about ending oppression against Orc Wizards or "representation" for undead. Please stop with this pathetic pandering BS. Galadriel in Tolkien's actual work was one of the oldest, wisest and most respected Elves of the realm from the age of the trees. Her words were respected and honored among many of the Elven realms and she was not subject to bullying or disrespect in Elven society. She was the first to detect Sauron's presence in the 2nd age and on her word alone able to get the realm of Eregion established along with trying to reform an alliance among the various races, including the dwarves, to resist him. So this version of her is a step down from what was already in the books. Not to mention the action of Eowyn as an individual female were notable because they were prophesied long before the actual fact. And on top of that she was also called "The Lady of Rohan" or the "White Lady of Rohan" likely due to her complexion, since you brought it up.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-04 at 04:32 PM.

  7. #3747
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Member when Eowyn snuck into the army to fight among her kin and then ended up killing the Witch King with the help of Merry? I member.
    And that's what makes her exceptional.

    It wouldn't be a notable thing that she did if women warriors were merely ever-present in the rest of the world, and Riders of Rohan were the only culture that didn't allow their women into battle.

  8. #3748
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    What I mean is that strong female warrior archetypes are not part of Tolkien's story, just like Orc Wizards, Shadow Priests and Mages aren't either. I don't need to see those things in Tolkien just like I don't need to see Jaina Proudmore type female magicians or female undead either. The point being those elements are not part of Tolkiens world and don't belong there. This isn't about ending oppression against Orc Wizards or "representation" for undead. Please stop with this pathetic pandering BS. Galadriel in Tolkien's actual work was one of the oldest, wisest and most respected Elves of the realm from the age of the trees. Her words were respected and honored among many of the Elven realms and she was not subject to bullying or disrespect in Elven society. So this is version of her is a step down from what was already in the books.
    Ok, I get it. You are the gatekeeper to Tolkien's world and if it is not mentioned in the short stories, songs and poems it cannot exist in that world, particularly strong women (which there are examples of in his works, if not warrior women) or people of differing skin color. Once again it's a classic example of missing the forest because of the trees.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And that's what makes her exceptional.

    It wouldn't be a notable thing that she did if women warriors were merely ever-present in the rest of the world, and Riders of Rohan were the only culture that didn't allow their women into battle.
    Exactly, woke AF, out to trigger the incels.

  9. #3749
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    This the crux. Marketing is the shows downfall.

    Shadow of Mordor is a game that took lots of liberties with the story and lore. It did get backlash, including the sexy shelob. Difference is that the developers didn't go around claiming how faithful it was and even made new characters themselves to do what they want with.

    If Amazon had gone out from the start with proper marketing, there would still be backlash, but way less. Any show receive backlash so that can't be avoided when it's big enough of a show.

    Then the actors and Amazon doubled down on it and started to attack fans. It never works. But they wanted to cash in on the"faithful lotr" hype.
    LOTR fans, especially Tolkien purists, aren't vapid and mindless drones like MCU fans. The average Tolkien fan is way smarter and more in tune with what is going on with the IP than any other. We've also seen this deflection playbook a dozen times already with terrible adaptations in the last several years. It didn't work for Ghostbusters 2016, it didn't work for Netflix (TWICE IN THE LAST YEAR!) and it hasn't worked for Amazon either. People aren't stupid and we see what is going on.

  10. #3750
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Ok, I get it. You are the gatekeeper to Tolkien's world and if it is not mentioned in the short stories, songs and poems it cannot exist in that world, particularly strong women (which there are examples of in his works, if not warrior women) or people of differing skin color. Once again it's a classic example of missing the forest because of the trees.
    No it is a classic case of this depiction of Galadriel getting bullied as part of the Age of the Trees and being disrespected by Elven society is a wholesale destruction of her character that was above reproach in the books. The fact is that Tolkien empowered this woman from the gate in his stories and therefore Amazon is not doing any better than what was already there in the story. To sit here and argue that Galadriel being slapped around and ignored by other Elves including her nephew as some kind of idiot pest is BETTER than being the wisest and most respected Elf of the realm is just dumb and stupid. It is not and that is just objectively obvious. She wasn't a 'victim' or 'victimized' in Tolkien's actual Lore. So this vicitimization complex that Amazon created is BS as if a woman needs to be slapped around a bit by men in order to be motivated to become better and powerful. LOL. Tolkien didn't write that Amazon did, so who is victimizing women? I can't believe that punching and fighting women and then banishing them forever is some kind of empowerment narrative.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-04 at 04:48 PM.

  11. #3751
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Member when Eowyn snuck into the army to fight among her kin and then ended up killing the Witch King with the help of Merry? I member.
    Except that doesn't actually happen in the books, and was a creative liberty that Peter Jackson was heavily criticized for by Tolkien fans. I didn't give a damn because it was one scene in a film series where the weight of the world rest on the shoulders of men. Let her have a moment in it all, it didn't break the overall story and Eowyn isn't some feature character in the scope of Middle Earth. And her father was pretty upset that she disobeyed orders to return home after the gathering of the armies of men.

  12. #3752
    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Exactly, woke AF, out to trigger the incels.
    Um, no, no it's not. Not at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Except that doesn't actually happen in the books
    It was in the books.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-04 at 04:49 PM.

  13. #3753
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Except that doesn't actually happen in the books, and was a creative liberty that Peter Jackson was heavily criticized for by Tolkien fans. I didn't give a damn because it was one scene in a film series where the weight of the world rest on the shoulders of men. Let her have a moment in it all, it didn't break the overall story and Eowyn isn't some feature character in the scope of Middle Earth.
    That actually came from the books, though not exactly the same way but generally her killing the Witch King was described in the books during the Battle of Pelennor fields. Her sneaking into combat is in there as well.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-04 at 05:07 PM.

  14. #3754
    How in the every living fuck is this thread still talking about the exact same things that were being talked about months ago? Literally a circle of the same exact arguments from people that just can't accept reality, nor the refutations of their arguments using Tolkien himself. How shocking it is that people who decided they disliked this series months ago, including the guy who went to the trouble to make a YouTube video 6 months ago about how bad it'd be, don't like what they've seen (I doubt some even have, tbh). Christ almighty do you people need actual lives.

    As for the 2 episodes, they were pretty great. I'd probably go 8/10 for these episodes alone, but reserve final rating for the entire season. Certainly not in a rush to rate on IMDB in a mad flurry of agenda. You could clearly see the budget that was poured into the CG, the sets, and beyond. The costumes all looked fine. The actors all seemed fit for their roles and nobody really stood out to me as explicitly bad. Galadriel is exactly as she should be expected to be for this time period, full of pride and whatnot. The music was fantastic when it needed to be, but I expect that from Bear McCreary. The dialogue felt pretty much Tolkien in its pretentiousness. Why people think otherwise, I'm not sure. Other than needing every possible reason to find fault (the Harfoots having things in their hair, really? Get a grip).

    I think the highlight so far was the dwarves, but dwarves are always a highlight, really. The only thing I think I had issue with was the sword jump to take the snow-troll out. It felt somewhat poorly timed and lacked impact regarding the step onto the sword and push off from it.

    All that considered, I'm definitely looking forward to more. The whole thing gave very strong Tolkien vibes.

    Side note; I'm always interested in Nazanin Boniadi >_>

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The 0 or 1 out of 10 ratings are from people who actually really hate the idea that this big company thought they could use their money to buy one of the most well known works of modern fiction and butcher it. That is an honest review.
    This gives you away as someone to not take seriously.

    Did you watch the episodes? Neither a 0 or 1 rating (or a 10) are objective in any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    As far as not having seen the show. I watched the first episode and quit.
    Then be an adult and move on. That said, I know you need to grumble as much as you can, but you certainly aren't offering any kind of actual discussion that is worth reading. Whinging about moderation, like you and another user have done (though they were playing a a far more whiny victim card), offers nothing and only serves to keep the festival of shit that is this thread, thanks to people like you, going.
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2022-09-04 at 05:00 PM.

  15. #3755
    Thinking about the show a day after watching episode 2 and my image of it has gotten worse, think it is only a 4/10 as the only thing of note I can recall is the dwarfs/Khazad-dum looking good, the rest I can barely recall the individual moments. Even the music I can only recall the score of Khazad-dum, the rest is completely forgotten, while most of the key notes of LoTR I can recall and I haven't watched those movies since last December (WoT made me want to watch a good fantasy). Almost every scene I can recall about Elves and Harfoots make me shake my head or slap my head in frustration. Even the scenes with Arondir make me roll my eyes (which to be fair I think the actor did a fine job, but the racist "knife ears" a line that is straight from Dragon Age said by the Southern men and the stupid scene with the hole, ugh bad writing), they just did all the elves dirty in this show and they come across as longer eared humans rather than a transcendent race that is ethereal in nature.

    Also Still love all the people throwing out all the ist and phobe attacks on others freely (as a blanket defense for the show no matter what you say) and the mods don't care, while if you say anything remotely snarky back you get infracted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  16. #3756
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    LOTR fans, especially Tolkien purists, aren't vapid and mindless drones like MCU fans. The average Tolkien fan is way smarter and more in tune with what is going on with the IP than any other.
    This very thread would show otherwise. But I know you live in fear of the dreaded "AGENDA!" and need to push as hard as you can against it.

  17. #3757
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    This very thread would show otherwise. But I know you live in fear of the dreaded "AGENDA!" and need to push as hard as you can against it.
    I was wondering where you went, I was hoping that shit would die down... I bring news, it did not! :P

    I feel bad cos I have been trying to argue their ignorance, alas resistance is futile it seems. There has been some discussion on the show. requires a lot of wading through the swamp though. There was a huge debate about imdb taking down reviews you missed :P
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-04 at 05:03 PM.
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  18. #3758
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post


    This gives you away as someone to not take seriously.

    Did you watch the episodes? Neither a 0 or 1 rating (or a 10) are objective in any sense.
    I already explained that such a rating 1 or 2 episodes into a new streaming series means hard pass, not watching any more not interested.
    How is that not honest unless you somehow are trying to turn this series into some kind of exercise in judging someones motivation beyond just not wanting to watch the show or liking it much. Plenty people Tolkien just fine. This isn't Tolkien. I respect your right to like the show, but don't tell other people what to like or not to like. And don't gimme that BS that not liking this show is equivalent too being some 'hater'. Why does anybody have to give a flying f*ck about about a show made by some multi billion dollar company? They don't owe them anything. They aren't curing dam cancer. Like any other product if they want people to like it, then make something people like. Otherwise GTFOH.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-04 at 05:05 PM.

  19. #3759
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I was wondering where you went, I was hoping that shit would die down... I bring news, it did not! :P
    I've been banned for the last 3ish weeks lol Even though some posters think it doesn't happen

    Seriously, the thread has just gone in a circle for months. People too juvenile to just accept it isn't something they actually want to watch and should move on. Instead, as is standard for this sub-forum, they'll stick around and just complain ad nauseam.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I already explained that such a rating 1 or 2 episodes into a new streaming series means hard pass, not watching any more not interested.
    Sorry, I didn't read more than this. As I said, nobody should take you seriously with nonsense like this.

    As said elsewhere, just move the fuck on if you're not going to watch it.

  20. #3760
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I've been banned for the last 3ish weeks lol Even though some posters think it doesn't happen

    Seriously, the thread has just gone in a circle for months. People too juvenile to just accept it isn't something they actually want to watch and should move on. Instead, as is standard for this sub-forum, they'll stick around and just complain ad nauseam.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Sorry, I didn't read more than this. As I said, nobody should take you seriously with nonsense like this.

    As said elsewhere, just move the fuck on if you're not going to watch it.
    What I said was stop trying to lecture people about the morality of not liking a dam TV show.


    To put it in context, this series has gotten down voted since the first trailer came out.
    And that is consistent across all Amazon channels around the world.
    So the show comes out and then there are a lot of negative reviews.
    That tells you that a lot of people are not interested in or liking this show.
    To argue that this is simply a bunch of haters from America is denying the obvious.
    And you trying to lecture people about why they should like it or make character judgements if they don't doesn't make it better.
    So please stop replying to me with this line of thinking.
    Why are you spending so much of your life worrying about what other people like or don't like?
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-04 at 05:21 PM.

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