Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Biomega]

If they were exhausted Galadriel should not have some exhaustion herself? Did they not went through the same journey? come on now.

That's my point. Of course she was. But she didn't care. That's the purpose of that scene: to show that she is not going to stop, not ever. Come what may. You get in her way, you get cut down.

Those scenes just show she was a bitch, and we do know she wasn't, like when leaving the elf to die and push forward, would she do that?

That's also very much intentional. It's no coincidence Galadriel is often mentioned in comparison to Fëanor. She is his counterpart, all the pride and selfishness that made the Noldor so susceptible to Fëanor's curse, though unlike him she manages to overcome it in the end. She was not a nice person at many times in her life. The Galadriel from LotR is THOUSANDS of years later. It's not how she started. And it's not what she is at the time of this show.

He was as much major as Galadriel, in fact, it does seems like they reversed their roles.

In LotR, which is thousands of years later. It was not the case at this point in time. Galadriel is much older than Elrond. He wasn't born in Valinor, he had never even been there. Elrond did not start out as the ring-bearing lord he is in LotR.

Right, but Galadriel is a zealot like that in the books? to be that much obsessed in vengeance alone? Plus, even so, it was him that warn the elves, not her.

We don't really have books to go by for this. There isn't enough material on Galadriel that covers her actions during this time; in fact she's mostly absent from events as described. However, we know Tolkien planned to change her into more of a warrior type. He talks about his plans in his letters, wishing to expand her into an amazon-like character featured in more stories. He just never got to write them before he died. The show is taking liberties with the character based on that, since there isn't really much actual source material, just snippets here and there.

We have two episodes in, and the writing is this awful, the changes nonsensical, and the passing is not good, we have what, 6 more, i can't see how this can get any better, usually you grab people by the first two episodes, like Sandman did

I'm not too happy with the first 2 either, but to be fair, I also didn't think Sandman was that great until after the 24h diner episode. It really picks up in the second half. I'll give this a bit more time; but not too much more. At least it's not WoT.

also, i HAVE to make a comment about when she jumps from the boat, how many miles did she swim, in the sea, with no food or water, with just the vague idea where the land is? how and why did she think it was good idea man? those things could just not be in the show and would make much more enjoyable...

It is a bit silly. I'd have just made it so she sees a Númenoran ship in the distance, and that gives her the idea to jump. She swims towards them, gets picked up, and gets shipped straight to Númenor. That whole castaway bullshit with the sea serpent was completely unnecessary and boring.

[s_bushido]

Those scenes just show she was a bitch, and we do know she wasn't, like when leaving the elf to die and push forward, would she do that?

Do we know she wasn't a bitch? She basically told Frodo that if she took the ring, she'd become another Sauron. Galadriel being more complex than "a pretty lady who fights evil and doesn't afraid" isn't exactly unprecedented. But notably, she did turn back to help the elf who had fallen when she saw why they asked her to stop. I don't really see the point in lying about the scene. But maybe that's just me.

[eschatological]

i have already addressed this elephant in the room (ha, i made a punny), it had nothing to do with what he did, as it had been set up in the previous films that he was gonna do something special, so when Aragorn shouts his name and he begins to leap towards the legs of the animal, you knew what to expect, with this, there's no past to show her being the super power warrior goddess she is portrayed as being, there's no hint to show she might be a more powerful being than those around her, not a fucking sniff of scrap to give the audience an expectation that 'yeah that's to be expected from her', it just happens, and that's it.

- - - Updated - - -



see my comment above.

In the very first scene we ever see of Legolas fighting in Fellowship, he literally does a multi-shot, kills multiple goblins with arrows and in melee....and then dodges multiple chain swings from a cave troll, until the chain embeds in a pillar, at which point he.....dashes up the chain, up the trolls arm, on top of its head, and fires arrows into the back of its head, just like the oliphant.

The. very. first. scene.

[rogoth]

In the very first scene we ever see of Legolas fighting in Fellowship, he literally does a multi-shot, kills multiple goblins with arrows and in melee....and then dodges multiple chain swings from a cave troll, until the chain embeds in a pillar, at which point he.....dashes up the chain, up the trolls arm, on top of its head, and fires arrows into the back of its head, just like the oliphant.

The. very. first. scene.

wrong, the scene that sets the precedent comes long before they are even in the mines of moria, it comes when the fellowship is trying to take the pass of caradhras and get foiled by saruman, legolas shows his 'elven skill' by walking on the snow that has freshly fallen, which gandalf then mimics to get the same vantage point as him, that's the subtle and understated first instance of elves being different to men/dwarves/hobbits in the PJ film trilogy.

[Fantomen]

“Completely unprotected” as he points to what would amount to several feet of fat, muscle, and bone that an animal of the correct size would have . Are you blind or just willfully ignorant?

A historical handler/rider of a war elefant did have a hammer and a spike, so he can kill the elephant fast (by driving the spike into ito the top of the head) if the elefant is out of controll.

Do I think a bow can do the same? No, do I think a fantasy elf who have a fantasy bow can do it.... maybe....but it puch the suspension of disbelief.

[eschatological]

wrong, the scene that sets the precedent comes long before they are even in the mines of moria, it comes when the fellowship is trying to take the pass of caradhras and get foiled by saruman, legolas shows his 'elven skill' by walking on the snow that has freshly fallen, which gandalf then mimics to get the same vantage point as him, that's the subtle and understated first instance of elves being different to men/dwarves/hobbits in the PJ film trilogy.

But that's not a show of his martial or combat prowess. He doesn't even break a sweat with the cave troll. It mirrors the oliphant scene utterly. It's the first time we see him fight.

You're telling me him being light-of-foot on the snow is "setting up" for his combat feats? Presumably every elf could do that?

[Biomega]

Do we know she wasn't a bitch?

If anything, we know she WAS

When Fëanor asked for locks of her hair she gave him the finger. Three times. She was a sass lass from day 1.

It took several millennia for her to mellow out to the point where she could come back to Valinor. Longest chill pill timeout in history.

[rogoth]

But that's not a show of his martial or combat prowess. He doesn't even break a sweat with the cave troll. It mirrors the oliphant scene utterly. It's the first time we see him fight.

You're telling me him being light-of-foot on the snow is "setting up" for his combat feats? Presumably every elf could do that?

yes, because it made him running up the chain like he did not seem out of the ordinary and something he would be very capable of doing thanks to the few seconds we saw of him previously doing something similar, and because the second instance of this kind of thing happening was in combat it's showing the viewer that he can do that under any circumstance, it's not a special thing only possible at certain times or under certain conditions.

no, not every elf could, some were more adept at the technique than others, and it's explained in the hobbit when bilbo and the dwarves are traversing mirkwood that the elves were so fleet of foot and so light on their feet they made no sound up in the trees, and it appears that this skill was something of a wood elf speciality, not something seen by the elves of eregion.

[bledgor]

As people have pointed out multiple times to you, this is a very common trope in storytelling, both literary (especially in Tolkein), and on film/in TV. And no one blinks when it's some other heroic figure - you seem to just have a problem with this version of that trope.

People have a problem when a character who has never done this from the source does this, especially when said people are supposed to be with an elite troop hunting the biggest bad. Yes you could argue it happens in 90s or 90s style action films, but this isn't that type of movie, so the same standards don't apply.

You can enjoy the scene (I fucking laughed during it, especially now knowing every time they show the Elf troops they have different numbers), but I am sick and tired of people trying to force feed me the bullshit that is lore accurate or appropriate, it isn't. Not to mention it just reinforces the stigma that Galadriel in this show is a bit of a bitch, and a shit commander (which is actually closer to being against lore than anything the show has given us as Galadriel was a competent ruler).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

wrong, the scene that sets the precedent comes long before they are even in the mines of moria, it comes when the fellowship is trying to take the pass of caradhras and get foiled by saruman, legolas shows his 'elven skill' by walking on the snow that has freshly fallen, which gandalf then mimics to get the same vantage point as him, that's the subtle and understated first instance of elves being different to men/dwarves/hobbits in the PJ film trilogy.

legolas Walks on some snow in a way humans can’t, so of course he can flip a troll and solo a giant fuck off elephant.

Galadriel Climbs a sheer ice cliff and and can push on through a snow storm other elf’s are falling in, no way she could also flip over a troll.

Like do you really think any one is buying this line of argument?

[Triceron]

So you can only bring down giant beasts if you're likable... Gotta add that to me writing 101.

You gotta establish a character if you want audiences yo not just roll their eyes at what the character does.

It'a why John Wick does so many things right that most other action flicks do wrong. Nothing to do how impossible the feats are.

[Biomega]

I am sick and tired of people trying to force feed me the bullshit that is lore accurate or appropriate, it isn't. Not to mention it just reinforces the stigma that Galadriel in this show is a bit of a bitch, and a shit commander (which is actually closer to being against lore than anything the show has given us as Galadriel was a competent ruler).

There isn't really much lore about Galadriel during this time period. That's sort of the point - the show is trying to fill that gap. We know Tolkien wanted to do more with her; he said as much. But he never got around to it in any substantial way.

We mostly know her very early days, and her very late days. Neither is a good template for the long, long times in between. But to say that just because her middle years aren't like her later years it's "not lore-accurate" is a mischaracterization. Galadriel in the show isn't the same as Galadriel in the movies, but how could she be? That's thousands of years later. If she WASN'T different that'd be strange indeed. Her character arch, such as we know of, is basically her going from rebel to mellow. She overcomes the curse of Fëanor and the temperament of the Noldor, finally rejecting power and returning to Valinor. It would make sense that there's some wild stuff in the middle somewhere - the very flaws she eventually overcomes in LotR when she refuses the Ring.

Does that mean they did everything right with her so far? Hell no. There's plenty of criticism to leverage. But arguing from lore is weird when the whole point here is that there isn't really any, and this is meant to fill the gap.

People BECOME competent rulers. They don't just have that from day 1, and everything they ever do early on is the same as it is later in their lives.

[bledgor]

There isn't really much lore about Galadriel during this time period. That's sort of the point - the show is trying to fill that gap. We know Tolkien wanted to do more with her; he said as much. But he never got around to it in any substantial way.

We mostly know her very early days, and her very late days. Neither is a good template for the long, long times in between. But to say that just because her middle years aren't like her later years it's "not lore-accurate" is a mischaracterization. Galadriel in the show isn't the same as Galadriel in the movies, but how could she be? That's thousands of years later. If she WASN'T different that'd be strange indeed. Her character arch, such as we know of, is basically her going from rebel to mellow. She overcomes the curse of Fëanor and the temperament of the Noldor, finally rejecting power and returning to Valinor. It would make sense that there's some wild stuff in the middle somewhere - the very flaws she eventually overcomes in LotR when she refuses the Ring.

Does that mean they did everything right with her so far? Hell no. There's plenty of criticism to leverage. But arguing from lore is weird when the whole point here is that there isn't really any, and this is meant to fill the gap.

People BECOME competent rulers. They don't just have that from day 1, and everything they ever do early on is the same as it is later in their lives.

Not everyone is incompetent at first, or a complete and utter bitch, go figure it is quite common for people to stay a similar disposition their entire lives. At this point she is still one of the eldest Elves, so yes she should be more wise, she would be much later in a character arc if you want one from her character than just about everyone else. This piss and vinegar Galadriel has fuck all basis in Tolkien, and was created so the writers could justify their piss poor attempt at adding conflict instead of being nuanced.

Seriously it is piss easy to show her still have a hidden anger, but being a good fair leader that cares about her troops to foreshadow who she will be but still imply a bit of anger and potential for mindless violence beneath it:

Have her race to the top of the ice wall, then lower a rope. It shows she will put herself in danger to spare her troops some anguish, which while nice is her being overconfident/headstrong as she would have been a lone at the top and had no clue if something is waiting. When the man falls, show her intuition by her going back to help as soon as he falls, but tell them they are close, she can feel it, to push on a bit more. Instead of the finding the ice hole and punching through a solid sheet of ice have the Ice troll come out of it, then have her direct the troops into a formation and to perform a certain routine to take it down. If you still want her to shine during the fight, during the fight have an elf serving as bait slip on the ice, and Galadriel leap in to save them while making a counter stroke. Finally when the Ice troll is cut down to its finale breathe, have her be a bit savage in finishing it, let her slit its throat and have it gagging for air to show her anger and potential for brutality. Finally instead of trying to force her troops on when they find signs of Sauron, have the troops ask her if they continue north, and after a few moments of silence as she looks about (noticing a few wounded from the ice troll and exhausted) have her relent her chase and inform them they have found the truth, now they must go back to war the others and gather the troops. You hit all the notes you need, lay down potential paths of conflict while still showcasing more of the Galadriel that exists in Tolkien.

Galadriel never needed this big arc, no one was asking for it, and they did it in a terrible way that has little basis in the books. Her rebelling wasn't to ride forth slaying orcs and putting her own troops in trouble, there is a reason she didn't take part directly in the kin slaying. No instead her rebelling was going to middle earth to atone, to carve out a land to lead, that was her aspirations. This orc slaying is laughable (as well as changing the way her now only 1 instead of 3 brothers died) as is removing her husband whom she was married to, her having her daughter EARLY in the 2nd age, a daughter that has some significance as she would wed Elrond and give birth to Arwen, wife of Aragon.

If it isn't there, by default it goes against lore. Amazon CHOOSE to do this, they don't get a free pass to then write things that don't exist changing a character people know and because the details aren't exact its now fine. Stop defending a billion dollar company that is producing a sub-par product.

NOT EVERYONE IS A CRAPPY LEADER TO START, not everyone treats their troops like utter crap while acting like a bitch. You can have a much further starting point, you can still make smaller mistakes that lead to consequences (again have her direct the troops and still have wounds/casualties, that to me is a much more impactful scene than let me superman it after it rolls over you guys. You can even show her telling them to finish it to soon, and getting a guy into danger that she rescues, before stepping in to slowly kill the Ice troll with a throat slitting, it implies a darker side, shows failure and a sense of rushing, while maintaining being a caring commander that is while competent a bit too green.

[s_bushido]

P Not to mention it just reinforces the stigma that Galadriel in this show is a bit of a bitch, and a shit commander (which is actually closer to being against lore than anything the show has given us as Galadriel was a competent ruler).

What "stigma" is that? Why would someone expect a character (even one who is immortal) to be exactly the same in different depictions thousands of years apart? This is like dipshits mocking the "without my sword, what am I?" line (or whatever she actually said) without the slightest semblance of comprehension that that's probably EXACTLY what her story in the show is going to be about... Her figuring out if being a sword against the evil of Sauron is the only thing she ever wants to be.

[bledgor]

What "stigma" is that? Why would someone expect a character (even one who is immortal) to be exactly the same in different depictions thousands of years apart? This is like dipshits mocking the "without my sword, what am I?" line (or whatever she actually said) without the slightest semblance of comprehension that that's probably EXACTLY what her story in the show is going to be about... Her figuring out if being a sword against the evil of Sauron is the only thing she ever wants to be.

Galadriel was never shown, depicted or suggested to be a bitch in Tolkien lore, I mean I know people like you don't actually care enough about the books to read them. I am not saying Galadriel has to be hair for hair the same, but you don't have her start at A, she might be thousands of years younger but she is still thousands of years old. This isn't a teenage equivalent Elf, she would be fairly along the way in becoming who she is in the trilogy, but would be more inexperienced and green, unsure and hasty, not brash, bitchy, and divisive.

Like I said in my post before, have her make mistakes directing her troops, not ignoring them, watching them get destroyed, then step in to single handily save the day, while still being so bad they would abandon her. Her goal in coming to middle earth was to see an end to the evil in part yes, but she really wanted was a land to call her own, a place to be a leader of, to govern over. There is no marks, traces, or traits of that in these scenes that you can easily add in with minor changes.

You want a big arc/coming into his rightful place, Elrond is beyond perfect, he would be young, he would need to build who he is, you can even have it be in part because he is trying to court Celebrian/prove himself to his mother in law (Galadriel). Add in the conflict of him being half-elven, and fuck you can replace Galadriel with him and it would have been a lot better. Also can have it be part of the reason the troops don't respect/listen to him and why he ignores/doesn't care about them, because of his human heritage. This gives you the young, brash, aggressive, bit of an arse character who it is appropriate for and is closer to lore, as he would become the hand of Gil-Galad in this age before leading the troops with him to take on Sauron during the last alliance.

Stop defending sub-par products from Amazon.

[Muxtar]

I don't know whether it has been discussed here yet, but if you go to IMDB (owner of which is also Amazon, what a coincidence), you'll see that all users reviews that are below rating 6 out of 10, are just disappeared, and there were plenty of those in the first day of release (September 2nd). And my review that I wrote on the same September 2nd, is still 'pending', for 4 days now, as I am sure hundreds of others similar reviews, in order to not let the people know about negative responses.

And they try their best to raise the show's rating with some fake reviews and stuff - rating was 6/10 and now it 6.8/10. Same goes for Rotten Tomatoes - rating there was raised in just last few days from 34% to 39%.

These silly attempts to censor the true people response to this 'greatest and the most expensive series ever' are just as laughable as they are futile. Truth can't be locked away.

[Biomega]

Not everyone is incompetent at first, or a complete and utter bitch, go figure it is quite common for people to stay a similar disposition their entire lives.

Even if that was common (and it probably isn't, unless you have painted in very broad strokes), there's also plenty of people who change substantially throughout their lives. Just because something is common doesn't mean it's always the case, or that other ways couldn't happen. Plus, her life is much longer than human lives - just because someone doesn't change over 80 years or so doesn't mean they'd never change over 8,000 years.

But that doesn't even matter, because you're wrong from the start: we KNOW that she DID change. That's her story. She went into exile, she was a rebel, and at the end of her time in the lore, she finally managed to do what her greatest kinsman could not: say no to power. It took her thousands of years, but she changed. That's THE LORE for that character, emphasized even more strongly by a repetition of a famous event from her earlier days where she was effectively faced with the same request (locks of her hair) but where she previously quite vehemently refused she now kindly obliges. That's precisely there to show how she CHANGED.

You're on board with her change as a character from early to late portrayal, yet somehow you object to the middle because she would have to have a "similar disposition"? She doesn't. She was exiled by her gods for her disposition for thousands of years, UNTIL SHE CHANGED IT. That directly refutes your entire point, as per established lore; let alone what they may come up with here.

This piss and vinegar Galadriel has fuck all basis in Tolkien, and was created so the writers could justify their piss poor attempt at adding conflict instead of being nuanced.

I agree that the portrayal isn't great, and the actress in particular has apparently not understood the character (or was not made to understand it by directors/producers, which they should have taken care to). But that's the implementation of a character that, at least in principle, is sound. The details aren't good. But the direction is.

So far, anyway. Could well be that she spirals into absurdity completely two more episodes in. We don't know yet.

It shows she will put herself in danger to spare her troops some anguish

But that's not the Noldor way. That's the whole point behind the First Kinslaying etc. The Noldor, especially those around Fëanor, were selfish, arrogant bastards. They killed people, stole ships, burned stuff to the ground. They were stubborn and self-destructive. THAT is the kin Galadriel comes from, and she is every bit the equal of Fëanor if not superior in the end. She CHOSE to go against the command of her gods. She rebelled with the rest of the Noldor.

Just because she turned out to become a wise ruler at the end of the Third Age thousands of years later doesn't mean she's always been a nice person. In fact from what little we know of her, she was not - she made that clear to Fëanor in no uncertain terms when he asked her for her hair.

Don't look at LotR Galadriel and think that's what she always was. There's a reason she was banished from paradise for a good few thousand years, and that when Frodo looks upon her in a moment of temptation, he sees PURE TERROR.

Galadriel never needed this big arc, no one was asking for it

Tolkien disagrees. He wanted to make her a prominent character, and put her at the center of future narratives. He was very much interested in giving her big arcs, he just never got to it before he died. He talks about it in his letters. He saw her as having immense storytelling potential.

Does that mean this realization of such a story is doing everything perfectly? Hardly. But to say "no one was asking for it" when the author himself went "yeah I want to do more with her" is questionable at best.

Her rebelling wasn't to ride forth slaying orcs and putting her own troops in trouble, there is a reason she didn't take part directly in the kin slaying. No instead her rebelling was going to middle earth to atone, to carve out a land to lead, that was her aspirations. This orc slaying is laughable (as well as changing the way her now only 1 instead of 3 brothers died) as is removing her husband whom she was married to, her having her daughter EARLY in the 2nd age, a daughter that has some significance as she would wed Elrond and give birth to Arwen, wife of Aragon.

I agree there's a lot of changes, likely for several reasons - one being that they're not allowed to do the Silmarillion (which let's be honest they just should have done instead of this, but oh well), the other being that you need to put THIS story first and that may require adjustments so you don't end up with things already being the case that you would like to instead develop over time. I expect a lot more such shuffling of the timeline to accommodate a proper narrative flow for this story, because otherwise the established timeline would simply get in the way.

That's also why I think the Stranger is Gandalf, despite it not being according to the books' timeline. They just wanted things to flow better for the sake of a better narrative in the show. Which I am at least in principle all for - adaptations need to work within their own confines.

If it isn't there, by default it goes against lore.

That's not true. If the lore isn't defined, something can't go for or against it. Much like you can't break a law that doesn't exist. "The lore doesn't say anything" isn't the same thing as "the lore says something else".

Lore changes, too. Tolkien himself changed many details, characters, and circumstances as his writing evolved. You look at some of the very early stuff, for example, you notice incongruities and clashes within the lore. That's entirely normal. I doubt he was much bothered by it, given that the poetic myths he was referencing are full of such irregularities and always have been.

Amazon CHOOSE to do this, they don't get a free pass to then write things that don't exist

I mean, they paid a lot of money for the right to do this. That's what adaptations do. Always. No adaptation will observe the original 100%. The only question is: is the product that comes out at the end of good quality? So far, I'm not convinced this one is. Not for reasons of not being true to the original, but for many, many other reasons.

Stop defending a billion dollar company that is producing a sub-par product.

I'm not, and never have been. You're confusing me clarifying why something makes sense in the show with me saying the show is good. Those are two very different things.

I have said from my very first post after watching Episode 1 that I'm not happy with what I'm seeing. That doesn't mean I think nothing makes sense or that everything is messed up and illogical. That's not how it works.

NOT EVERYONE IS A CRAPPY LEADER TO START, not everyone treats their troops like utter crap while acting like a bitch.

No.

And why does "not everyone is a good leader at the start" become "oh you're saying everyone is a CRAPPY leader at the start"? That makes no sense. Like, on an elementary, logical level.

Not everyone is +X != Everyone is -X

[Desperado82]

I haven't watched it yet because the trailers didn't sell me on it. it doesn't seem like it's Tolkien's story, it's just a random YA fantasy set in Tolkien's world.

And when I saw even Grace Randolph, who I generally don't put a lot of weight on her reviews, call Galadriel both a Mary Sue and a Karen wrapped into one package, that cemented my choice.

I'm not interested in Twitter's version of Tolkien's work. They would be busy calling him a fascist if he were alive today, rather than trying to profit off of his work.

[Biomega]

They would be busy calling him a fascist if he were alive today, rather than trying to profit off of his work.

It's funny, I've been hearing this (or versions of it) a lot, and it's kind of weird that people are missing the real point.

If Tolkien wrote this way today, he probably would be called a bigot at least; and probably rightly so.

BUUUUUT

If Tolkien was a contemporary author, he also, you know, WOULDN'T WRITE NOW LIKE HE DID THEN.

You can't just transplant history without observing context. Aristotle didn't speak out against slavery, and thought of it as a normal way of life. Does that mean he'd still be a happy slave owner in the present day? NO. His entire thinking would be radically different if he had been born in the 20th century instead of the -4th century, and to pretend otherwise is poisoning the well for that particular argument from the start.

You can't look at a book written 70 years ago and evaluate it by today's standards. That's ridiculous at the best of times, and downright ludicrous when it's fiction.

[Veggie50]

I haven't watched it yet because the trailers didn't sell me on it. it doesn't seem like it's Tolkien's story, it's just a random YA fantasy set in Tolkien's world.

And when I saw even Grace Randolph, who I generally don't put a lot of weight on her reviews, call Galadriel both a Mary Sue and a Karen wrapped into one package, that cemented my choice.

I'm not interested in Twitter's version of Tolkien's work. They would be busy calling him a fascist if he were alive today, rather than trying to profit off of his work.

"I didn't watch it but I don't like it" is a very common take here