1. #3861
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Again, a black elf among a people of fair skin elf is not logic. Same for a dark skin dwarf princess (and without beard!) among a white colored people. While those people are isolationist. That is just immersion breaking.
    I read an article who interviewed a make-up artist who claimed "I was there working on it, they have beards, I've seen it".
    If you watch the scenes with disa and durin, you can actually see small patches on each side of her chin, lower than side burns...

    So technically they do have beard, but I would just prefer if they didn't have any at all if they just gonna half ass it like that. Just to be "technically correct". It's such a dishonest way to fulfil the description of them having beards.

    At least if it was completely clean you could say "they just shaved it" (Although I'm sure that shaving as a dwarf is a no-no), but no one is gonna shave it like that.

  2. #3862
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    I read an article who interviewed a make-up artist who claimed "I was there working on it, they have beards, I've seen it".
    If you watch the scenes with disa and durin, you can actually see small patches on each side of her chin, lower than side burns...

    So technically they do have beard, but I would just prefer if they didn't have any at all if they just gonna half ass it like that. Just to be "technically correct". It's such a dishonest way to fulfil the description of them having beards.

    At least if it was completely clean you could say "they just shaved it" (Although I'm sure that shaving as a dwarf is a no-no), but no one is gonna shave it like that.
    If I recall correctly, female dwarf can't be distinguish from male dwarf. Because of the beard and that their physical trait resemble those of male dwarf.

    A shaved beard is a great dishonor if I remember well.

  3. #3863
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    If I recall correctly, female dwarf can't be distinguish from male dwarf. Because of the beard and that their physical trait resemble those of male dwarf.
    yeah I know, hence the irritation with them just going for "technically having a beard" route.

  4. #3864
    So people are still banging on about the heinous decision to force us to see a black person on screen. Have we decided yet how, exactly, their skin color effects the story?

    Which of Arondir's scenes, specifically, would have been improved if he was played by a white guy instead? Was it the one where he was patrolling the town? The one where he got the news that they'd be finishing their duty and going home? The one where he talked with the woman from the village about his feelings? Or maybe it was the one where he was searching for the orcs/source of the corruption in the tunnels.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-05 at 08:25 AM.

  5. #3865
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Proving he's actually still around, and a problem, presumably.

    This is not exactly an uncommon trope - the zealous yet underequipped avenger, chasing their prey across the land. Stopping to think about how this will actually play out is not part of the deal, usually.

    Though one might posit that given the scarcity of any evidence of activity, they could have expected Sauron to be weakened and isolated, hiding alone somewhere; in which case Galadriel might well have considered herself a worthy match for such an opponent. Or, alternatively, her goal might have been simply to prove that Sauron is still a threat, whereupon she could go to Gil-galad and make a case for a full-scale military assault.

    It does make sense, in a way. You don't go searching for an elusive enemy with an entire army. You do that with a small, mobile scouting party. That doesn't mean it's what you use to attack eventually - finding your quarry merely comes first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    First step is to prove he is still around, that is all we know.
    It's been 2 episodes in a probably multi season serie so your question is a bit early
    I mean, you are correct to begin with, Galadriel is an avenger, driven by revenge. That is what the writers have told us.

    She has no plan and is willing to abandon the soldiers she is commanding just to keep the pursuit for Sauron going.
    To think she would stop, retreat and regroup if she found Sauron has no grounds from what we have been shown so far. Galadriel is also certain that Sauron is still out there and does not seem to care what others think about that fact. Further, Sauron being around is enough for him to being a problem. The only time he is not would be when he is entirely defeated. The characters in the show knows this as we have been told about his immense power. They rather pretend he is gone than entertain the idea that he is not.

    Speaking of Saurons power; i think even a weakened Sauron would be way stronger than an ice troll and would demolish Galadriel and her party. That would actually have been a good thing as Galadriel really needs a reality check and a nerf to the Mary Sue powers that she has (ye, i know you are gonna attack this). We can at least hope they go for the (somewhat predictable) twist of Halbrand being Sauron and the dilemma Galadriel faces due to the feelings she develops for Halbrand. I think that would be a good way of adding some much needed layers to a very one dimensional main character.

    So in what season are they to justify what happens in the first 2 episodes which are supposed to capture the viewer? S3? S4? Come on.. I don't get why so many through this thread is so hellbent on defending the flaws and bad writing.

    It's not entirely bad. Khazad-Dum was ok and Princess Disa was surprisingly enjoyable. She added quite some warmth to an otherwise stone cold environment.

  6. #3866
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Again, a black elf among a people of fair skin elf is not logic. Same for a dark skin dwarf princess (and without beard!) among a white colored people. While those people are isolationist. That is just immersion breaking.
    Why are you calling them isolationist? The First Age saw mass migrations throughout Middle-earth with the arrival of the Noldor, Awakening of Men, centuries of warfare and sinking of half the continent. On top of that Arondir is a soldier stationed for from home, so even if you want to imagine skintone as an evolved trait and not down to the whim of Illuvatar (who furnishes each new fëa of his Children with a suitable hröa) then Arondir being far from home is reason enough for him to differ from the people around him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    If I recall correctly, female dwarf can't be distinguish from male dwarf. Because of the beard and that their physical trait resemble those of male dwarf.

    A shaved beard is a great dishonor if I remember well.
    Later notes on the subject of beards has Tolkien state that "all MALE dwarves have them." The emphasis on "male" (shown in Nature of Middle-earth though I haven't seen the original handwritten letter) shows he was backing away from the idea of female dwarves wearing beards. To a Tolkien purist showing Disa without a beard should be less offensive than Aragorn, Boromir and Faramir being shown bearded in the movies.

  7. #3867
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    So people are still banging on about the heinous decision to force us to see a black person on screen. Have we decided yet how, exactly, their skin color effects the story?

    Which of Arondir's scenes, specifically, would have been improved if he was played by a white guy instead? Was it the one where he was patrolling the town? The one where he got the news that they'd be finishing their duty and going home? The one where he talked with the woman from the village about his feelings? Or maybe it was the one where he was searching for the orcs/source of the corruption in the tunnels.
    The question you are asking is the akin to asking "Would the scene in LOTR when Gandalf comes to the rescue at helms deep be any worse off if he used flashbangs instead of magic?"

    There is nothing wrong with flashbangs, but for them to be there requires a more modern setting.

  8. #3868
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Why are you calling them isolationist?
    Even if they were isolationists, I can't understand what that has to do with it. Unless his presumption is that the only reason they'd have different skin colors is that they were interbreeding with other races...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    The question you are asking is the akin to asking "Would the scene in LOTR when Gandalf comes to the rescue at helms deep be any worse off if he used flashbangs instead of magic?"

    There is nothing wrong with flashbangs, but for them to be there requires a more modern setting.
    rofl

    Once again resorting to complete horseshit because the answer to my question is, in fact "no, his skin color has no bearing on the scenes he's in."
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-05 at 10:29 AM.

  9. #3869
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Even if they were isolationists, I can't understand what that has to do with it. Unless his presumption is that the only reason they'd have different skin colors is that they were interbreeding with other races...



    rofl

    Once again resorting to complete horseshit because the answer to my question is, in fact "no, his skin color has no bearing on the scenes he's in."
    It seems you can't argue in civil fashion. Come up with some counter arguments, and stop insulting your opponents, ad hominem in any debate counts as an automatic loss, meaning you lost this argument.

    It is also funny how a team of elves looking for a demigod got their asses kicked by a troll.

  10. #3870
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    once again providing your obtuse world view, feel free to go and look at the numbers yourself, nobody is stopping you, you can see very clearly that every single piece of media surrounding this mess has been disliked and summarily shown to be the dumpster fire that it was projected to be from the start.

    who said i was quoting you?, i certainly didn't, i provided quotes from some of the 10/10 reviews that are clearly review bombing this shit in the wrong direction, very narcissistic of you to think it was all about you.

    i'm far from fragile, in fact i'm the complete opposite, i would tell you in person the self same thing i have told you now on multiple occasions, i'm not afraid to speak my mind and as such it could be viewed as a character flaw or a benefit depending on viewpoint, but suffice to say i'm not some scared little kid who can't stand my little 'fee fee's' getting hurt like you are your ilk, who this show seems to want to pander to at all costs.

    just because that's something you would do does not mean that's something everyone else would do, but keep up your sanctimonious bullshit, i'm sure it'll strengthen any arguement you have right?

    except you are looking for an echo chamber, you have consistently told me and others who share similar views to me to 'move on', if everyone who has rightfully criticised this utter shitstorm of a show leaves it alone all that's left is you and the hivemind morons like you who think it's the second coming of Christ and it has no flaws to speak of, which is the EXACT DEFINITION OF AN ECHO CHAMBER, or does it mean something else in freedom land?
    Christ, what a mess this post is. At least you discovered what a line break is, I guess. I'll just reply to the last bit, because the rest is full of the same sort of bullshit.

    No, as I said, there is not a single person looking for an echo chamber here. What I actually did was offer you sound advice about moving on from something that clearly just fills you with some weird hate. It isn't good for you. I'm just trying to do you a favour. People that have enjoyed the entire two episode far, including myself, have also offered criticisms, which you are apparently unable to read. There certainly isn't a hivemind, but I can see why you need to think there is, especially when you add the "second coming of Christ" hyperbole in there. "No flaws to speak of," but I literally mentioned it has flaws, as have other people that have enjoyed it so far. What is freedom land? Are you mistaking me for an American? I'd kindly ask you not to keep making assumptions and creating things out of thin air.

    It genuinely just looks like you can't read what people are replying to you with based on that last paragraph. Again, because it doesn't seem to be doing you any good, move on. You only watched 15 minutes, I'm sure you can forget it all soon enough and watch something you actually enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Unified does nothing but attack people and called them ists and phobes, you can go through his posts and see he will make 1 comment on the topic at hand every dozen or so posts MAYBE. Just ignore him and his baiting and talk the topic.
    If I do "nothing but attack people and called them ists and phobes" I'd love for you to go back through the most recent page of my post history and just link me to 5 of them where I do that. I'd also love for you to point out my "baiting."

    In actuality, you're still just mad that your shit gets called out. Only way you could deal with it was to put me on ignore lol Speaking of echo chambers

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Well, what I don't understand is what Galadriel's plan for hunting down Sauron was exactly, another plot hole.
    Its not a plot hole. We just haven't seen more than 2 episodes yet... why is it that people want everything handed to them in the first episode or so? Things develop over time. Are attention spans so short these days? Is it the need for instant gratification to know absolutely everything you possibly can from the very first second?

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    So people are still banging on about the heinous decision to force us to see a black person on screen.
    Of course they are. Some of the posters have been tugging at this one thread for months and months, with no signs of letting go.

    Hopefully this won't go on for the 5 seasons they have planned. Season 2 starts filming soon, apparently. Though I'm sure some of the hate will carry over, even if they don't actually watch it themselves.

    ‘The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power’ Is Bringing Out The Worst In Tolkien Fandom
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2022-09-05 at 10:54 AM.

  11. #3871
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    It seems you can't argue in civil fashion. Come up with some counter arguments, and stop insulting your opponents, ad hominem in any debate counts as an automatic loss, meaning you lost this argument.

    It is also funny how a team of elves looking for a demigod got their asses kicked by a troll.
    Real discourse does not count points, nor does it award "wins" or "losses". Trying to catch someone on a forum on "rules" is a bit weird.

    To get back to the point at hand, I do believe you present a false analogy with "gandalf using flashbangs". Though the outcome there would be similar, gandalf having access to such technology makes one wonder why he did not use such in different situations. Something that most definitely impacts the story.

    Unless Arondir's skin allows him to do something or prevents him from doing something a white elf could, there is no such impact, as I see it. But perhaps you'd like to present arguments on why it DOES have an impact on the story?

    Also, can anyone enlighten me on the "political agenda" being pushed in the show? I hear the argument a lot but unless you believe black people on screen or a woman not relegated to cooking is political, I don't see it.
    Last edited by Veggie50; 2022-09-05 at 10:52 AM.

  12. #3872
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    It seems you can't argue in civil fashion. Come up with some counter arguments, and stop insulting your opponents, ad hominem in any debate counts as an automatic loss, meaning you lost this argument.
    A counter argument to what? Skin color has nothing to do with what sort of technology people have access to. It requires no argument other than to point out how laughable the comparison is. Obviously.

    The irony of you bringing that up, specifically, is the fact that Saruman chose to use an explosive/alchemical concoction to bring down the wall of the castle instead of using his magic...
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-05 at 11:06 AM.

  13. #3873
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    It seems you can't argue in civil fashion. Come up with some counter arguments, and stop insulting your opponents, ad hominem in any debate counts as an automatic loss, meaning you lost this argument.
    how can anyone respond to a stupid analogy about 'modernisation' using gandalf and flashbangs being compared to having a black character with anything other than mockery and derision?

    seriously when you typed it did you think 'yup thats it, gottem'?

    while also not giving any thought to the question.

    smooooooth

  14. #3874
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    Real discourse does not count points, nor does it award "wins" or "losses". Trying to catch someone on a forum on "rules" is a bit weird.

    To get back to the point at hand, I do believe you present a false analogy with "gandalf using flashbangs". Though the outcome there would be similar, gandalf having access to such technology makes one wonder why he did not use such in different situations. Something that most definitely impacts the story.

    Unless Arondir's skin allows him to do something or prevents him from doing something a white elf could, there is no such impact, as I see it. But perhaps you'd like to present arguments on why it DOES have an impact on the story?

    Also, can anyone enlighten me on the "political agenda" being pushed in the show? I hear the argument a lot but unless you believe black people on screen or a woman not relegated to cooking is political, I don't see it.
    Indeed it does call into question why Gandalf doesn't use that ability more often, what situations would you suggest it would be useful in?

    Again, travel is not an easy task, to have an active mix, be that of culture or color or any other things you wish to mix, requires frequent travel, something that requires technology. You would not walk to mount doom and back ever in your lifetime if you lived in Hobbiton, it is dangerous and doesn't do you much good, you would only travel if it was easy, strictly necessary, or if you had clear monetary incentives. It's the same reason we don't see elves architecture in Hobbiton, or the brutalist style of mordor used anywhere else.

    There are much better ways to evolve the story, something I've not seen anyone argue against, what is wrong with having a ship from Rhûn arrive in port, carrying a full crew of easterlings, perhaps there to pay tribute to the king in exchange for access to protection, or to offer an alliance? It would place 2 different people in proximity without seeming arbitrary or forced.
    What is wrong with creating a realistic scenario, and introducing the characters that way? Can you explain this to me?
    The way it's done is not realistic for a medieval fantasy where it takes ages to travel, the way I'd like it done would have just as many roles for characters of color, but it would be a natural way to move them into the story?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    how can anyone respond to a stupid analogy about 'modernisation' using gandalf and flashbangs being compared to having a black character with anything other than mockery and derision?

    seriously when you typed it did you think 'yup thats it, gottem'?

    while also not giving any thought to the question.

    smooooooth
    I feel you are just as stupid when you suggest people run halfways across the world several times in their life. Did you ever run to another continent yourself? probably not. Don't be smug when you look just as stupid to me.

  15. #3875
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    I feel you are just as stupid when you suggest people run halfways across the world several times in their life. Did you ever run to another continent yourself? probably not.
    I imagine he also isn't a fantasy elf in a fantasy world.

  16. #3876
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I imagine he also isn't a fantasy elf in a fantasy world.
    That is the same argument as Gandalf throwing flashbangs because its just fiction right? Which was my original point I was making.
    Fiction needs limitations, any story with limitations unbound becomes uninteresting straight away.
    Last edited by Sialina; 2022-09-05 at 11:16 AM.

  17. #3877
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    That is the same argument as Gandalf throwing flashbangs because its just fiction right?
    No. The Gandalf with flashbangs is a very different argument.

    You're looking for a realistic representation to travel in a fantasy TV series that isn't about an actual journey yet. LotR was entirely about a journey. A journey that took less than a year, even. If those 3 movies cover less than a year, is it not safe to say that travel in the TV series so far would be all but meaningless to see in real time? I honestly don't know why people are hung up on this. Seeing the travel would be boring as sin.

  18. #3878
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Well whatever the case I would be fine with them removing scores for 1 or 2... but for 3-5 is a bit sad, cos I would certainly rate the first episode a 5/10 myself, with the second being a 7/10. Also there could be some constructive reviews in the 4 - 5 rating areas. I wouldn't be against anyone rating the show so far a 4/10 so far.

    I can image they are deleting them to allow the rage of people to calm down then open the gates over a certain amount of time so the outrage isn't as fresh or as many. sure some of the baiters will return to downvote, but it wont be as many so it will still create a more honest overall review instead of the kneejerk outrage.

    this is why I rate by season and not by episode, I wont post my review until then. So this sort of thing serves me well enough
    By your own subjective metrics you've deduced, that any review below 4 cannot be constructive by default?
    Honestly, I started watching the series without the whole "LotR purist" background. And still, couldn't be disappointed more. From me, it's been 3/10 at best. I really struggled watching these 2 episodes which saddened me deeply.
    CGI, as beatiful as it is (after all it's 90mils poured into a single episode), it's absolutely EVERYWHERE. Authenticity is almost non-existent. Dialogs are probably the worst part of this show so far. Character development is just a massive exposition.

    These two episode can easily be summed up with: tell, don't show, which is an anti-pattern of story-writing, backed with a hollywood-scale budget.

  19. #3879
    As far as the argument here. A more suitable one may be....

    Is having a random black actor playing an elf any different from having one of the dwarves be 6'5" ?

    If the dwarves have this one random guy who is super tall in their ranks, but still a dwarf, wouldn't that make you go "hey whats going on there?"

    They could come up with an explanation for it, as the audience would want one, however without it the immersion in the story would be broken.

    Same thing if Black Panther had one of the Dora Milaje as a slight Japanese woman. Does it change the story? Not really, but it would make the audience go "hey, where did she come from?"

    What changes like that do is show "the hand of the author". They are changes that are world immersion breaking. You can incorporate them, if you tell your story appropriately and give the audience a reason to go "ah I see, carry on". However, if you just make random changes without the explanation, it tells the audience that "this change wasn't made because of the story, but because the creator wanted it for a reason that isn't the story".

    Random black elf, random tall dwarf, random asian Wakandan..... all of them CAN be, but the story demands you tell us WHY they are, because otherwise it tells the audience that you don't have any consistency in your story.

  20. #3880
    The way Tolkien wrote middle earth and set up the lore is very specific. There are a lot of parts to it.
    And he was always outspoken that his "world" was to be respected as specific as if it was a real place with real history and mythology.
    Therefore, this is why above all else, he rejected attempts to call it an allegory for something in the real world.
    His work was a world unto itself with its own dynamics, mysteries and interaction of forces that stood independently of anything else.
    That is why so many people reject Amazon and other studios doing what they typically do, which is to take something like this and change it repeatedly.

    If you are going to do an adaptation of Tolkien, then you should be sticking to his wishes and what he actually wrote.
    That doesn't mean there aren't large areas of that world that are not written about in detail and cannot be fleshed out.
    But that fleshing out shouldn't be contradicting or going against what he established within that world.

    As such the basic idea boils down to the Valar are angelic demigods and among them is Melkor the incarnation of discord and corruption (ie. evil). His inherent nature is to work against the other valar which represent other aspects of the forces within the universe created by Eru Iluvatar. Eru created Arda and allowed the Valar to work in shaping it and before the age of the trees there was the age of the lamps which were put out by Melkor. Then came the age of the trees when the world was illuminated by the two trees and the various sentient species began to awaken. Most of these species were created by Eru Iluvatar but a few were molded by the Valar, including the Ents, Dwarves and Eagles, but given life by Eru. Only Eru had the power to give life and it is because of this that Melkor was also supremely jealous.

    For each species, a few fully formed 'fathers and mothers' of each was awakened fully formed in Arda at a specific time, starting with Elves.
    They were always the highest in this pecking order given favor by Eru with eternal life and also favored by the Valar.
    In being able to dwell with the Valar, that made them among the most knowledgeable and sophisticated of all the species.
    Both Dwarves and Elves awakened during the Age of Trees, while men awakened during the first age.
    And all of them awakened to the east of the continent of Middle Earth, except for the dwarves who awakened in caves.

    Dwarves:
    The medievalist Charles Moseley described the dwarves of Tolkien's legendarium as "Old Norse" in their names, their feuds, and their revenges.[2] In the appendix on "Durin's Folk" in The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien describes dwarves as:

    a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life. But they are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men alleged. For Men of old lusted after their wealth and the work of their hands, and there has been enmity between the races.[T 1]

    The J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia considers Tolkien's use of the adjective "thrawn", noting its similarity with Þráinn, a noun meaning "obstinate person", and a name found in the Norse list of Dwarf-names, the Dvergatal in the Völuspá. Tolkien took it for the name, Thráin, of two of Thorin Oakenshield's ancestors. It suggests this may have been a philological joke on Tolkien's part.[1]

    Dwarves were long-lived, with a lifespan of some 250 years.[T 1] They breed slowly, for no more than a third of them are female, and not all marry. Tolkien names only one female, Dís, Thorin's sister.[T 2] They are still considered children in their 20s, as Thorin was at age 24;[T 3] and as "striplings" in their 30s. Despite his young age, Dáin Ironfoot was 32 when he killed Azog, the orc chieftain of Moria.[T 1] They had children starting in their 90s.[T 1]

    The Dwarves are described as "the most redoubtable warriors of all the Speaking Peoples"[T 4] – a warlike race who fought fiercely against their enemies, including other Dwarves.[T 5] Highly skilled in the making of weapons and armour, their main weapon was the battle axe, but they also used bows, swords, shields and mattocks, and wore armour.[T
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_(Middle-earth)

    Elves:
    Germanic word

    The modern English word elf derives from the Old English word ælf (which has cognates in all other Germanic languages).[1] Numerous types of elves appear in Germanic mythology; the West Germanic concept appears to have come to differ from the Scandinavian notion in the early Middle Ages, and the Anglo-Saxon concept diverged even further, possibly under Celtic influence.[2] Tolkien made it clear in a letter that his Elves differed from those "of the better known lore"[T 1] of Scandinavian mythology.[3]

    Halfway beings

    The Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey notes that one Middle English source which he presumes Tolkien must have read, the South English Legendary from c. 1250, describes elves much as Tolkien does:

    South English Legendary "St Michael" 253-258
    And ofte in fourme of wommane : In many derne weye
    grete compaygnie mon i-seoth of heom : boþe hoppie and pleiƺe,
    Þat Eluene beoth i-cleopede : and ofte heo comiez to toune,
    And bi daye muche in wodes heo beoth : and bi niƺte ope heiƺe dounes.
    Þat beoth þe wrechche gostes : Þat out of heuene weren i-nome,
    And manie of heom a-domesday : Ʒeot schullen to reste come.[5]

    Modern English
    And often shaped like women: On many secret paths
    men see great numbers of them: dancing and sporting.
    These are called Elves: and often they come to town
    and by day they are much in the woods: by night up on the high downs.
    Those are the wretched spirits: that were taken out of Heaven,
    And at Doomsday many of them shall come to rest.

    Some of Tolkien's Elves are in the "undying lands" of Valinor, home of the godlike Valar, while others are in Middle-earth. The Elf-queen Galadriel indeed has been expelled from Valinor, much like the fallen Melkor, though she is clearly good, and much like an angel. Similarly, some of the Legendary's Eluene are on Earth, others in the "Earthly Paradise". So, did they have souls, Shippey asks? Since they could not leave the world, the answer was no; but given that they didn't disappear completely on death, the answer had to have been yes. In Shippey's view, the Silmarillion resolved the Middle English puzzle, letting Elves go not to Heaven but to the halfway house of the Halls of Mandos on Valinor.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Middle-earth)


    Among these groups there are various splits among them based on their history since the first awakening. And generally this is where we begin to see the differentiation in features among them generally. (But remember the biology in Middle Earth is not like our Earth, there is no evolution from apes in this. Generally the variation among any species was directly crafted prior to the awakening and only inhereted, unless affected by other things as mentioned below.) Among the elves, the first among them is the split between those who left and followed the call of the Valar to settle in Valinor. This idea of going to the West became also a key distinction among the men who awakened in Middle Earth. And generally for both men or elves the distinction between those who went east and those who did not is represented as a contrast between those of the light and those of darkness. Part of this is due to the age of trees being defined by the light of the two trees in Valinor and therefore moving to the West meant moving to that illumination. But also moving to the west also referred to moving towards the knowledge and wisdom of the Valar while for men it meant moving to the lands of the Elves who had received many of the gifts of knowledge and sophistication from the Valar. That idea of some elves or men being of the darkness does not necessarily indicate anything outwardly different in appearance as it is primarily about knowledge, wisdom and the light of the trees. However, there are some physical differences described between the two groups. So, in the case of those elves who settled in valinor they were considered the fairest of the Elves in skin, hair and eyes, such as Galadriel whose hair reflected the light of the two trees. However, it is also a fact that since the creation of Arda, Melkor always dwelled in the darkness of arda and thus worked to corrupt those farthest from the West and the Realm of the Valar. That is a big reason for him mostly working among those men of the South and the East of Middle Earth. And it is in the South and East of Arda that you also have the darkest populations. As a result the North West regions of Middle Earth are therefore the lands that he most wanted to take and those are the lands that are most covered in detail in the stories of Tolkien with ties to English history and myth. And these are the heroes and legendary travelers written about in his books.f

    https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Light_of_Valinor
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-05 at 01:04 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •