Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Man I don’t think I’ve ever seen a better example of why the term “woke” is meaningless nonsense.

I mean really characters who are aware of evil and aren’t believed by those around them is woke now? Shit aliens, ghost busters, terminator 1/2, Chucky, ect ect ect, must all be hella woke.

All of those movies you listed have main characters who are relatable, as humans. Ripley, the Ghostbusters, Sarah Connor etc etc weren't established as exceptionally skilled super-humans. They aren't depicted as being beyond human. They are complex, flawed characters, and that's what makes them interesting.

Galadriel's only flaw so far is that she was right.

[Kumorii]

All of those movies you listed have main characters who are relatable, as humans. Ripley, the Ghostbusters, Sarah Connor etc etc weren't established as exceptionally skilled super-humans. They aren't depicted as being beyond human. They are complex, flawed characters, and that's what makes them interesting.

Galadriel's only flaw so far is that she was right.

nah, she stumbled upon a raft... so she failed to swim...

[Monteverdi]

I liked the show. Seems to mostly hold up against established lore.

If people are losing their minds about this now, wait until Sauron gets involved in human politics, props up several demagogues who spew racism and hate against elves, and it leads to such destruction and an entire kingdom collapses. This all happens in the lore, of course, but people are gonna lose their minds over the real-world political lines they can draw from it.

[Gumble]

She fails at taking care of her men leading to them being fatigued and unable to go on.

She fails to convince her men that she found something of note leading to them abandoning her.

She fails at convincing her friends that darkness is still out there and that she shouldn’t be sent home.

She fails to swim to land.

She fails to get the humans to trust her and ends up pushed off there raft.

She anchors her self to the second raft and tells the human to tie him self to her, this leads to the raft snapping and her sinking as she tied her self to the broken piece.

She fails to free her self from the rope while sinking.

If you want to weight all of that against “she’s right about Sauron and can swim” and end up thinking she’s a Mary Sue there is no helping you.

What pain and suffering is caused to her, both externally and internally, by these struggles? Does everyone not believing her cause self doubt? Do her failures cause her to deviate from her task? Does she endure physical pain and hardship? Does she endure anything outside of "people don't believe me"?

I mean people die following her, do you get a real sense that that weighs on her? Or are they disposable because there isn't any characterization going on to where we'd care for any of these people?

She might not be a Mary Sue, I'd argue she isn't, but she is certainly a character that is hard to care about.

Almost every scene Galadriel is in for the first two episodes is her struggling to get people to see what she sees and failing to do so.

Her issues aren’t the same as the glasses trope where she Could get every thing that she wants with a super fiscal change, she would have to reshape her whole approach and personality to get her troops to stay with her and even if she did there’s no saying they wouldn’t still leave her and she wouldn’t be in the same boat of trying to convince her friends and king with nothing to back it up but a cheerier demeanour.

The other thing this reminds me of is Man of Steel. I LOVE Superman. My favorite character, bar none. I understand people's issues with him but I absolutely love the concept of someone who has the abilities of a god but chooses to be a mortal (I loved Hercules too for the same reason).

Man of Steel, like most Synder movies, made me feel hollow. I didn't realize it at the time, but after seeing more Synder movies, I finally understood that he hates superheros and spends his time trying to make them look as horrible as possible. He cannot see someone with power not acting selfishly. However, my BIGGEST complaint about Man of Steel was that it did the Superman story backwards and caused the audience to not care about Clark. Clark was an afterthought, he was just Superman in glasses instead of an actual persona. Good Superman stories make you care about Superman because you see the trials and tribulations he goes through as Clark, and then when Superman comes out you cheer for him because you already care about him.

Clark having to deal with Lois and the love triangle between her, him and Superman is really important for the story (hence why most Superman stories fizzle once Lois 'knows'). That combined with really seeing him AS Clark, and seeing him live AS human is really important.

If you aren't given the time to care about your main character before they do the superman stunts, you aren't going to care about those stunts. You need to be given a reason to be happy for them.

Man of Steel reminds me of these super heroine shows/movies, in that it fails to make you care for the character before they are amazingly overpowered, so you feel hollow watching it because you have nothing to base the heroic moments on. Its like watching an anime in Japanese if you don't speak it. You can see the fight scenes, but unless you understand who these characters are, and why you should care about them, its just shiny pictures that don't mean anything.

[Triceron]

Failing =/= character flaw.

Superman failing to prevent the city from being half-destroyed by an alien threat does not somehow make his character more interesting. A character flaw is something internalized, not externalized.

[Makabreska]

Failing =/= character flaw.

Superman failing to prevent the city from being half-destroyed by an alien threat does not somehow make his character more interesting. A character flaw is something internalized, not externalized.

Debatable. In this case, it shows he is not omnipotent (as was often an issue with him), can and will struggle and fail, which may then lead to self-doubt and feeling of hopelessness. Something they forgot in Justice League. Like, superhero failing is a staple character progression tool.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

All of those movies you listed have main characters who are relatable, as humans. Ripley, the Ghostbusters, Sarah Connor etc etc weren't established as exceptionally skilled super-humans.

Ripely in aliens is established as hyper component being able to use military gear she shouldn’t have any background in with no issues and take on the Queen of “the perfect killing machine” with a factory tool.

Conner is also hyper component in the second movie having multiple dead drops of weapons she knows how to use and being able to track down the black inventor.

They might not be super human but they are both far beyond relatable in the skills they have and how effective they are with them with nothing on screen to support them getting said skills.

All of the characters in these movies may be more likeable then Her to you but if the difference between “woke” and “not woke” is that you like the “non woke” characters more even though the story archetype is the exact same that just puts on display how meaningless the term is.

Galadriel's only flaw so far is that she was right.

blatantly a load of shit.

Over pushing her men is a flaw, being unable to let go is a flaw(even if she’s right), being willing to sacrifice her people for her obsession is a flaw.

[Monteverdi]

Man of Steel reminds me of these super heroine shows/movies, in that it fails to make you care for the character before they are amazingly overpowered, so you feel hollow watching it because you have nothing to base the heroic moments on. Its like watching an anime in Japanese if you don't speak it. You can see the fight scenes, but unless you understand who these characters are, and why you should care about them, its just shiny pictures that don't mean anything.

Honestly, if anything the Galadriel in TRoP is *underpowered* compared to who she should be. I've largely enjoyed the first two episodes, but a complaint I have is that Galadriel and Elrond are too weak. I understand the narrative reasons behind it, but having Galadriel be this person with a personal vendetta with no real influence and no one who listens to her, and having Elrond be this junior politician-in-waiting, is a pretty big change for who these characters were by this point. At this point in the story, they're both incredibly experienced and powerful.

[Biomega]

Do you ever not create strawmen in order to defend yourself? I said the men in her squad should have been able to defend themselves without her against that troll, because they all should have been trained and skilled enough as members of this 'special' mission to find Sauron.

And I've pointed out that they're deliberately made to fail in order to highlight the exceptional skill and determination of Galadriel, which is a 100% standard and established storytelling trope that happens all the time in all sorts of stories. You're creating a special situation in which you try to invalidate this trope for no good reason.

And again, you love to argue that other people's are bad or invalid as if only your opinion counts.

And you have the gall to talk about strawman? I point out the flaws in your argument, systematically and precisely. But instead of trying to argue against it, your defense becomes "oh you just think my opinion is bad and invalid and yours is the only one that counts". Bring ARGUMENTS, not insults and petty whining.

Those other men in that squad should have been able to do a better job against the troll. They should have been depicted as much more capable fighters, even if Galadriel is better. This isn't a Tolkien issue it is a writing issue for this series.

Tolkien does the same thing in his writing, as do the sources he references. Heroes coming in to save the day, and/or heroes surviving and winning when no one else could are the bread and butter of heroic storytelling. It's everywhere. This is completely standard and established for this kind of narrative.

And on top of that, we never see the "army" that she is supposedly leader of. What kind of army is 10 people? If she is a leader of an army she doesn't have to go to the High King and ask for permission to use her troops to find Sauron.

You don't use an army for scouting. That'd be moronic. I'm pretty sure I already went through the three steps: 1. Prove there's a threat 2. Find that threat 3. Defeat that threat. Steps 1 and 2 do not involve a massive army, because that would be inefficient and counterproductive. That's true for real-world military tactics, too. You don't use a 50,000-man army to gather intelligence or reconnoiter an area, either. What a ridiculous thought.

That is a contradiction is my point. It is not consistent with what is being shown or what actually happens. You don't decide to exile one of your best warriors because she is doing her job

And as I (and others) have pointed out several times, NO ONE IS EXILING ANYONE. They're not being exiled. They're being allowed to go home. They ARE in exile. ALL OF THEM. Can you please not ignore it when people explain things to you? You keep going back to an incorrect point after it's been corrected several times by several people. That's very annoying.

Here we go again with you trying to argue other can't have opinions.

Her we go again you trying to make me pointing out the flaw in your argument into me trying to prevent you from having an opinion. It gets old, man. ARGUE, don't whine. No one is trying to suppress your opinion when they're pointing out that your argument ignores the main motivating factor, and that it's no surprise if something seems inconsistent when you intentionally remove the thing that makes it consistent.

You can have all the opinions you like, but when you're doing something factually incorrect, people can point that out. Feel free to ignore them and just screech MUH OPINYAN, no one is trying to take that away from you.

What I am saying is they haven't shown her character flaws as being part of this story.

You mean something like, I don't know, her consistently putting her obsession over the welfare of her people, to the point where they actively mutinied because she was pushing them too hard and too far? Are you saying that they didn't show this, or that this isn't a character flaw? I'm curious.

And stop bringing up Feaonor. He isn't in this series at all and was never mentioned in the flashbacks.

You're just lying, now. Not only is he mentioned, they literally HAVE HIS HAMMER and talk about him while HOLDING IT IN THEIR HANDS.

Did you actually watch the show? Be honest.

I am talking about how there was no disrespect, getting into fights and being sent back to Valinor in the books.

Yes. As I've pointed out, there is basically no book material about the Galadriel of this period. I don't know why you want to counter this with "but what she did in the show isn't in the books!" when that's... the premise of my argument.

What is in this series is not a reflection of what is in the books at all.

Because THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BOOKS about the Galadriel from this time. THAT'S THE POINT I WAS MAKING.

Do you actually read my posts or do you just wait for your turn to speak?

It is a complete contradiction of what is actually in the books.

Now this is just blatantly false. It's not a "complete contradiction". There's incongruities, arising from the fact they inserted a new narrative; that's to be expected, and not uncommon for adaptations. But in no way do they "completely contradict" the books. That's a ridiculous accusation.

[Triceron]

Debatable. In this case, it shows he is not omnipotent (as was often an issue with him), can and will struggle and fail, which may then lead to self-doubt and feeling of hopelessness. Something they forgot in Justice League. Like, superhero failing is a staple character progression tool.

And that is if they depict him with self doubt and a feeling of hopelessness. That would need to be shown.

In the case of Galadriel, where is there any remorse in any of her actions so far? So far, her failings to protect her allies only redoubles her beliefs that evil is still out there. There is no internalized doubt or remorse for any of her actions.

It's only a flaw if it's internalized. Otherwise a failing is merely an externalization that doesn't actually make a character more interesting. I would argue that Galadriel's character hasn't become any more interesting just because she 'failed as a commander'. The story could continue without ever regarding this point at all and it wouldn't really change her current characterization. She's still as highly motivated to throw away all her rank and titles just to fight evil, and that still isn't a flaw to her character.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What pain and suffering is caused to her, both externally and internally, by these struggles? Does everyone not believing her cause self doubt? Do her failures cause her to deviate from her task?

we literally see both of these in the first episode. When Elrond mentions her leading elfs to there deaths she doubt's her self and deviates from her task agreeing to get on the boat to and go home before pulling back at the last second.

[Triceron]

Over pushing her men is a flaw, being unable to let go is a flaw(even if she’s right), being willing to sacrifice her people for her obsession is a flaw.

It's only a flaw if she internalizes it as one, if it actually builds up to showing some character depth.

So far, the writers have done nothing but tell us she's right and everyone else is just 'in her way'. Her characterization has not changed one bit so far, though I give benefit to the doubt that it's early enough in the story to not warrant an immediate character change. Just pointing out that nothing we've seen so far gives any reason to actually be invested in the character other than being 'Galadriel from the Books and Movies.'

If she were a brand new character, what would you say makes her interesting?

I mean, I could probably point to a dozen Walking Dead characters who portray this very same willingness to sacrifice people flaw, and it doesn't mean any of those characters are somehow more interesting for their single-mindedness. They still need nuance and characterization beyond that to round them out, something which we don't have for Galadriel and the current plot. That being said, I'm still gonna give the benefit of the doubt and hold out for the rest of the series. It just doesn't make sense to me why people are jumping the gun and implying she's a good (written) character at all when there's really nothing interesting to her character based on the two episodes we have so far.

[Gumble]

we literally see both of these in the first episode. When Elrond mentions her leading elfs to there deaths she doubt's her self and deviates from her task agreeing to get on the boat to and go home before pulling back at the last second.

I guess I missed the emotion or the change in her at all during that. If there was doubt it was hard to see and having her alter her actions for about 60 seconds before going "nope I'm right" kinda proves the point.

She's right, everyone else is wrong, they just need to recognize it.

[Kumorii]

Only emotion I've seen her do is makes her eyes slightly bigger when someone disagrees with her. Like she is slightly shocked.

[Syegfryed]

She fails at taking care of her men leading to them being fatigued and unable to go on.

She fails to convince her men that she found something of note leading to them abandoning her.

She fails at convincing her friends that darkness is still out there and that she shouldn’t be sent home.

What bullshit is this? she does not fail in any of those things because those are not her fault, its THEIR fault, THEY are so much garbage compared to her. How can you "fail" into taking care of your group to be fatigated when she herself does not get fatigated? the show make it so that is their fault by being weak or dumb.

She does not fail to convince then, they were just made stupid to dismiss it and think Sauron is gone, DESPITE THEY STRAIGHT UP FIDING EVIDENCE OF HIM

IN THE
SAME
SCENE

if you actually look at the events, she succeeds at finding a fortress that should never exist there, she succeeds by keeping everyone alive, there is even an extra elf there, she finds a door that there is no way of her knowing it's there and find a mark that should not be a thing

She fails to swim to land.

To be able to fail it must have an opportunity to fucking succeed, she would NEVER be able to swim back to land when she was that fucking far away already, she actually succeeds in staying alive after a moronic and suicidal move

She anchors her self to the second raft and tells the human to tie him self to her, this leads to the raft snapping and her sinking as she tied her self to the broken piece.

She fails to free her self from the rope while sinking.

But see dear, they have to make, totally-not-sauron, somehow competent, as the only person besides her in this show that don't have mental disability.

If you want to weight all of that against “she’s right about Sauron and can swim” and end up thinking she’s a Mary Sue there is no helping you.

thank god im not talking about mary sue shit, only the obnoxious parts of it and how they are butchering the character.

[Orby]

Yea netflix made even witcher series spectacular.

thats debatable. I have just as mnay issues with the Witcher so when it comes to their adaptations :P

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's only a flaw if she internalizes it as one, if it actually builds up to showing some character depth.

So far, the writers have done nothing but tell us she's right and everyone else is just 'in her way'. Her characterization has not changed one bit so far, though I give benefit to the doubt that it's early enough in the story to not warrant an immediate character change. Just pointing out that nothing we've seen so far gives any reason to actually be invested in the character other than being 'Galadriel from the Books and Movies.'

If she were a brand new character, what would you say makes her interesting?

A character flaw is just a trait that effects how they are read both in and out of setting in a negative way to not make them come cross as perfect, every thing surrounding her obsession and how she treats other because of it falls into that.

And I have literally no feeling towards Galadriel because of the books or movies I’m
Not a big fan of the Jackson movies and I’ve only read the the hobbit and first Lotr Books.

So she more or less is a new character for me and I liked her for the same reason I like say Kratos when God of war first came out. the archetype of “revenge at all cost” and how that can deconstruct a character is fascinating to me and doing that while also trying to keep up and elf’s grace and demeanour isn’t something I’ve seen before peaking my interest in her further.

Hell if she was a completely new character I’d Probably like her more as I wouldn’t know how far she’d go or if she came out of the other side of it.

- - - Updated - - -

What bullshit is this? she does not fail in any of those things because those are not her fault, its THEIR fault, THEY are so much garbage compared to her. How can you "fail" into taking care of your group to be fatigated when she herself does not get fatigated? the show make it so that is their fault by being weak or dumb.

not knowing the limit of those under you and how far they can be pushed is a failure of any leader. You could be a literal demigod but if you can’t complete your goal without those lesser then you and you break them before you even get to said goal your a failed leader.

She does not fail to convince then, they were just made stupid to dismiss it and think Sauron is gone, DESPITE THEY STRAIGHT UP FIDING EVIDENCE OF HIM

persuading some one to your point of view id a skill like any other the fact that they found evidence and she still couldn’t get any one to agree with her just shows how far she has failed both in keeping the trust of those around her and in persuading them to listen.

But see dear, they have to make, totally-not-sauron, somehow competent, as the only person besides her in this show that don't have mental disability.

Galadriel doesn’t have to miss judge the strength of there raft or trap her self while sinking to make him look competent just like all the elfs under her didn’t need to be weaker or less skilled in combat to make her look Competent.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess I missed the emotion or the change in her at all during that. If there was doubt it was hard to see and having her alter her actions for about 60 seconds before going "nope I'm right" kinda proves the point.

She's right, everyone else is wrong, they just need to recognize it.

She goes to the literal edge of heaven before turning back to her task, but if you want to move the goal post from “did she deviate” to “she didn’t deviate far enough” sure I guess I can’t stop you.

[Triceron]

Hell if she was a completely new character I’d Probably like her more as I wouldn’t know how far she’d go or if she came out of the other side of it.

That's fine if your explanation is as such, and I wouldn't argue against your opinion here. But as I point out here, there's nothing worth noting that's actually in the story so far that makes her an interesting character. All if her intrigue is in whatever people wish to project on to her as an otherwise uninteresting character.

And yes, I think we can say the same about Kratos, who really wasn't an interesting character at the outset. The game was interesting because of its gameplay and mechanics more than driven by the character's story. I'd persoanlly say Kratos as a character only really started getting interesting in the 3rd game, when he recognizes the actions of his past. IMO it was a strong setup for the current God of War series, and a much wiser, older Kratos.

I wouldn't point at any of the earlier God of War games as being strong for their story or characterization. It was a mindless action-blockbuster. The story was really just an excuse to kill a bunch of Gods.

[Romanthony]

Well I mean now i seen it all. NBC who are pretty much sayings Rings of power is a masterpiece is pretty much saying Tolkien was a Racist and that Amazon should be praised, for ending the Racist Legacy of lord of the rings. They even said that Tolkien made Orc to look Warty and ugly, because he saw them as black/Asians Like what are these people smoking?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...bate-rcna45955

[Kumorii]

Well I mean now i seen it all. NBC who are pretty much sayings Rings of power is a masterpiece is pretty much saying Tolkien was a Racist and that Amazon should be praised, for ending the Racist Legacy of lord of the rings. They even said that Tolkien made Orc to look Warty and ugly, because he saw them as black/Asians Like what are these people smoking?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...bate-rcna45955

people are projecting hard with the "Orcs are black people" argument. Which is kind of sick that they do so tbh.
Can't say I ever thought of black people when seeing an orc.