1. #3901
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    The difference between the Rings of Power and Game of Thrones is that the diversity in GoT is consistent and makes sense.

    In GoT, the skin color (and even hair and eye color) are distinctive traits of specific regions of the world. Hell, it's even a main driving point of the story at the start that leads to Ned Stark being executed. You'll notice that next to no one complained about it there because it made sense.

    In RoP it's none of that. Just random actors thrown together in a ridiculous and inconsistent ways. That's where the problem is. It's not racism, it's just confusing and nonsensical. Hence lots of people bringing it up and trying to make sense of it. If they had, for example, decided that all of the dwarves would be played by black actors and all of the elves would be played by Hispanic ones, that would be odd but at least it would be consistent and make sense within the context of the world.
    But it's not a real world? It is a fantasy world. Why would there need to be regional distinction between people with different skin colors? Just because it works that way on Earth, doesn't mean it has to in a magical fantasy setting.

  2. #3902
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocksteady 87 View Post
    The difference between the Rings of Power and Game of Thrones is that the diversity in GoT is consistent and makes sense.

    In GoT, the skin color (and even hair and eye color) are distinctive traits of specific regions of the world. Hell, it's even a main driving point of the story at the start that leads to Ned Stark being executed. You'll notice that next to no one complained about it there because it made sense.

    In RoP it's none of that. Just random actors thrown together in a ridiculous and inconsistent ways. That's where the problem is. It's not racism, it's just confusing and nonsensical. Hence lots of people bringing it up and trying to make sense of it. If they had, for example, decided that all of the dwarves would be played by black actors and all of the elves would be played by Hispanic ones, that would be odd but at least it would be consistent and make sense within the context of the world.

    People in small societies with little to no travel breed with people in the same societies, leading to people who look a hell of a lot a like. Even if there's the occasional outlier, their traits will quickly be absorbed and blended in within a few generations. It's not rocket science or racist.
    If you complain about the colour of an actors skin in a fantasy made up world then your racist plain and simple, not once has even tolkien said there were not any black elves in middle earth so its not against the lore of the world to have them.

    The complaints are nothing to do with anything about the series and more to do what the hardcore fan base thinks the series should be or feel like, too many people just complain about everything.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2022-09-05 at 01:46 PM.
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  3. #3903
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    But it's not a real world? It is a fantasy world. Why would there need to be regional distinction between people with different skin colors? Just because it works that way on Earth, doesn't mean it has to in a magical fantasy setting.
    Dude. You don't know anything about GOT. You said it yourself. Please give it a rest. The whole story of this era within GOT is that a group of people from another land, with specific features dominate Westeros. And they are able to dominate due to their dragons. It is a core part of the story written by George RR Martin Himself. People can write whatever the f**k they want to write in their books. Why do people keep clinging to these morality arguments on these things as if any writer can't generally write any kind of story they want? Among these invading houses or families were the Targaryens and the Velareyons. Both of whom had the same distinct features in the book. George decided to change one of those families and make them all black. That is what this is about. They didn't just change one random person in the family.

    Again, nobody is obligated to include any specific combination of features or populations for any reason in any work of fiction. This nonsense "rule" doesn't exist and doesn't even belong in this discussion.

    On one level it is a question of live action adaptations being able to argue a higher "moral" ground for including certain individual features and populations due to casting. On another level it is a question about what is being chosen to be adapted as there are plenty of stories out there across various forms of media with certain kinds of features already built in.

    In this particular case, you are talking about two well known and popular European authors being expected to uphold and reflect diversity from all over the world in books primarily written in English based on European history, myth and legend. And it makes no sense, no more than it would to demand the same from Chinese or African authors.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-05 at 01:59 PM.

  4. #3904
    Same bad faith posters keep derailing the thread to speak about skin color because they know there are some real problems with the show that they do not wish to discuss.

    Some of them even openly admit they didn't even watch the show. So they come here for only that purpose which is really sad.

    Do you know why people in general don't have a problem with House of the Dragon and some dark-skinned characters there?

    If it wasn't obvious enough, it's because the show is actually good. Reducing the criticism of Rings of Power to "you don't like dark skinned people" is the most disingenuous train of thought you could employ. But here you are doing it anyway.

    You're actually even contradicting yourself. It's like you're admitting the reason people don't like Rings of Power is because it's trash, not because of some people of color. Considering people don't have the same problem with House of the Dragon.
    Last edited by tikcol; 2022-09-05 at 01:57 PM.
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  5. #3905
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Dude. You don't know anything about GOT. You said it yourself. Please give it a rest.
    The whole story of this era within GOT is that a group of people from another land, with specific features dominate Westeros.
    And they are able to dominate due to their dragons. It is a core part of the story written by George RR Martin Himself.
    People can write whatever the f**k they want to write in their books. Why do people keep clinging to these morality arguments on these things.
    Among these invading houses or families were the Targaryens and the Velareyons. Both of whom had the same distinct features in the book.
    George decided to change one of those families and make them all black. That is what this is about. They didn't just change one random person in the family.
    The lore and story of GoT is irrelevant in a conversation about why one fantasy setting says black people are okay, but another one has everyone up in arms.
    I really don't care how you want to justify it by going into the details of a story I'm disinterested in.

    Its not real, it's all in your head that LoTR elves have to be white.

  6. #3906
    Can we not move on from this shit, like c'mon...

  7. #3907
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    The lore and story of GoT is irrelevant in a conversation about why one fantasy setting says black people are okay, but another one has everyone up in arms.
    I really don't care how you want to justify it by going into the details of a story I'm disinterested in.

    Its not real, it's all in your head that LoTR elves have to be white.
    You contradict yourself, like you said it is not real and therefore it does not have to reflect reality in any specific way.
    The point here is whether or not show like this need to change the source material in order to inject something that was not there previously.
    It is not a simple discussion, but in the case of Lord of the Rings, the issue is that the author intended his work to stay as he wrote it.
    And having a whole bunch of studios making changes to it and reinterpreting it and rebooting it is just not what he wanted.
    Diversity here is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of trying to justify changes to his work and going against his wishes.
    It is basically trying to turn this into an argument of morality which is purely pathetic and silly.

    If the work is immoral or problematic then don't adapt it. Adapt something that is more fitting those 'moral' standards.
    But that doesn't work when this is one of the best selling books of all time and a huge mega corporation wants to cash in on it.
    They don't care about what he wrote. They only care about the name and being able to gain profits on using the name no matter if it is garbage or not.

    Also George RR Martin is alive and helping make HOD while Tolkien is dead. Both HOD and ROP are supposed to be direct prequels to books and other previous adaptations. One is a literal canon prequel and the other is not.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-05 at 02:16 PM.

  8. #3908
    Finished the second episode last night and I have to say I really enjoy the show. I think the acting is good, the scenery is gorgeous (Loved seeing the Dwarf place, was like looking at what Ironforge could be) and I find all the stories really interesting so far and there were a couple I initially didn't think I would.

  9. #3909
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    There are but there were not inserted for the sake of diversity. That's the difference.
    They are thou. 100%. They are just inserted in a better way, giving the entire family that ethnicity and a location they originate from that aren't westeros explaines it.

    In the books that family is white as snow thou... so its 100% balckwashing, just better done backwashing than what rings of power.

    The rings of power shouldve just made all those hobbits black and mentioned they migrated from the south for X reason. problem solved.

    edit: Lol this was infracted?! what kind of mods do we have here?
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2022-09-06 at 11:12 AM.
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  10. #3910
    Quote Originally Posted by Aphrel View Post
    They are thou. 100%. They are just inserted in a better way, giving the entire family that ethnicity and a location they originate from that aren't westeros explaines it.

    In the books that family is white as snow thou... so its 100% balckwashing, just better done backwashing than what rings of power.

    The rings of power shouldve just made all those hobbits black and mentioned they migrated from the south for X reason. problem solved.
    Let's say, that in GoT, they put decent effort in it, while they did not in RoP.

  11. #3911
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    Reducing the criticism of Rings of Power to "you don't like dark skinned people" is the most disingenuous train of thought you could employ. But here you are doing it anyway.
    If the criticism of Ring of Power that gets pushed back in that way were actually about the show itself you might have a point. But the criticism is "bla bla it is based on northern european bla bla it's illogical to have black dudes in the show". This shit is racist, plain and simple. These fuckers don't critique anything Arondir or Disa say or do in the show, they only point out the color of their skin. Shouldn't be surprised if they get push back like "you don't like dark skinned people".

  12. #3912
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperKarateDeathCar View Post
    Finished the second episode last night and I have to say I really enjoy the show. I think the acting is good, the scenery is gorgeous (Loved seeing the Dwarf place, was like looking at what Ironforge could be) and I find all the stories really interesting so far and there were a couple I initially didn't think I would.
    I am personally a sucker for set design, (as someone who once did some work on sets). and the set design on this show is on par with the Jackson movies there a lot of homeliness, the Half foot hovels/homes are so cosy. and everything looks lived in. Even the set, while the clothing and armour looks sketchy at times they have made an attempt to make them look worn, from the test footage a lot of the clothes looked too clean, in the show that wasnt the case, which I am relieved to see.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-05 at 02:46 PM.
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  13. #3913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    But it's not a real world? It is a fantasy world. Why would there need to be regional distinction between people with different skin colors? Just because it works that way on Earth, doesn't mean it has to in a magical fantasy setting.
    Well, then they would need to explain it or atleast make a note of it, because the viewer will.

    Its like if you have a society where half the people are tall and half the people are very short (Dwarf like stature). If you don't mention it and explain it, there will always be this "why?" in peoples mind. Its never a good idea to have things like that be unresolved.

    Besides, saying something is fantasy, is not an excuse to have elements in a world, that lacks sense. Fantasy brings interesting changes to what makes sense, but good fantasy still holds true to their own code of logic.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  14. #3914
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Well, then they would need to explain it or atleast make a note of it, because the viewer will.

    Its like if you have a society where half the people are tall and half the people are very short (Dwarf like stature). If you don't mention it and explain it, there will always be this "why?" in peoples mind. Its never a good idea to have things like that be unresolved.

    Besides, saying something is fantasy, is not an excuse to have elements in a world, that lacks sense. Fantasy brings interesting changes to what makes sense, but good fantasy still holds true to their own code of logic.
    Well some of the elves have fair hair and some have dark hair and at least one has red hair but I don't see people raging about it being an unresolved issue

  15. #3915
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Well, then they would need to explain it or atleast make a note of it, because the viewer will.

    Its like if you have a society where half the people are tall and half the people are very short (Dwarf like stature). If you don't mention it and explain it, there will always be this "why?" in peoples mind. Its never a good idea to have things like that be unresolved.

    Besides, saying something is fantasy, is not an excuse to have elements in a world, that lacks sense. Fantasy brings interesting changes to what makes sense, but good fantasy still holds true to their own code of logic.
    They can just say elves have a recessive gene that causes black pigmented skin the same way humans develop albinism, red heads and vitiligo. Though let's be real here, people would just bitch Tolkien didn't write it.

  16. #3916
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    They can just say elves have a recessive gene that causes black pigmented skin the same way humans develop albinism, red heads and vitiligo. Though let's be real here, people would just bitch Tolkien didn't write it.
    You don’t even have to go the albinism route you can just say god made them black and due to the nature of elf immorality and slow breeding you would never see the black elfs bred out.

    This way wouldn’t even conflict with any thing Tolkien wrote as he never locked down skin tone.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #3917
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    They can just say elves have a recessive gene that causes black pigmented skin the same way humans develop albinism, red heads and vitiligo. Though let's be real here, people would just bitch Tolkien didn't write it.
    And that would be an interesting point, if they brought it up. That the race is already a bowl of different genes, that decide skin tone and that they are from a land already mixed.

    But they haven't done that, so something is lacking. Saying "They can it explain it if they wanted" is not a good defense since they did not.

    And Tolkien did not write a lot of things, especially about the age outside of the 3rd age. Sure people will be mad and they can be argued against, but not securing the logic of your fantasy world, does not help and is hard to defend.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  18. #3918
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Proving he's actually still around, and a problem, presumably.

    This is not exactly an uncommon trope - the zealous yet underequipped avenger, chasing their prey across the land. Stopping to think about how this will actually play out is not part of the deal, usually.

    Though one might posit that given the scarcity of any evidence of activity, they could have expected Sauron to be weakened and isolated, hiding alone somewhere; in which case Galadriel might well have considered herself a worthy match for such an opponent. Or, alternatively, her goal might have been simply to prove that Sauron is still a threat, whereupon she could go to Gil-galad and make a case for a full-scale military assault.

    It does make sense, in a way. You don't go searching for an elusive enemy with an entire army. You do that with a small, mobile scouting party. That doesn't mean it's what you use to attack eventually - finding your quarry merely comes first.
    With all due respect, that still would not make much sense, if you carefully think about it.

    Commander Galadriel and her 9-10 elves were searching for Sauron for (I think) several years alone and unaided, they had finally reached the northern wastes of the Arctic.

    If a young and relatively inexperienced Galadriel (no Ring, no Phial, no Celeborn, no White Council, no other non-elf and Wizard allies) with no powers could defeat Sauron, then the average young Elf would be roughly equal to a powerful Maia in this new Tolkien universe.

    Say Galadriel and her elves found Sauron, somehow fought him to a standstill or otherwise survived / escaped. Then what? They would spend several more months returning to the other Elves, and then when they finally returned and persuaded the Elf-lords to believe their story and act, no easy feat in itself, Gil-galad would then spend several more months preparing an army.

    And then they would spend ANOTHER several months going to the Arctic with that army, hoping against hope that Sauron and all his minions patiently stayed put wherever they were and didn't simply seek out a new hiding place, and that they might possibly win against him despite giving him lots of time to prepare his own forces? Either way, it seems like a really fragile, confusing and short-sighted plan with much room for failure and disaster.
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-09-05 at 03:14 PM.
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  19. #3919
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    But it's not a real world? It is a fantasy world. Why would there need to be regional distinction between people with different skin colors? Just because it works that way on Earth, doesn't mean it has to in a magical fantasy setting.
    A good story is believable. Believable means respecting real world facts and circumstances whenever possible.

    A group of people living in the same area, having ethnic diversity without any explanation is not believable. If they had shown a different group of dwarves, who happens to have dark skin as a distinct trait, being a distinct group it would have been believable. Instead it is what it is, far left, woke politics randomly inserted into a fantasy franchise, clashing with both the source material and common sense.

    You people try very hard to not grasp a simple concept like this, because you're thoroughly indoctrinated by your far-left, woke masters.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2022-09-05 at 03:10 PM.

  20. #3920
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    A good story is believable. Believable means respecting real world facts and circumstances whenever possible.

    A group of people living in the same area, having ethnic diversity without any explanation is not believable. If they had shown a different group of dwarves, who happens to have dark skin as a distinct trait, being a distinct group it would have been believable. Instead it is what it is, woke politics randomly inserted into a fantasy franchise.

    You people try very hard to not grasp a simple concept like this, because you're thoroughly indoctrinated by your far-left, woke masters.
    I mean it could be believable, it could be a subject that nobody dares to talk about in the lotr series.

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