Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I wouldn't point at any of the earlier God of War games as being strong for their story or characterization. It was a mindless action-blockbuster. The story was really just an excuse to kill a bunch of Gods.

I don’t really have any thing else to add on the Galadriel front that wouldn’t be pedantic disagreements for the Sake of it as we just see the character different.

But as far as Kratos goes id agree that the first game isn’t great story or characterizing and is more so just a foundation. Though I’d disagree that story and characterization isn’t strong in the series as a hole the problem is mostly that getting a deeper understanding of Kratos isn’t in the main 3 games and it’s chains of Olympus ghost of Sparta and ascension which really flesh out the story and him as a character.

But Kratos is of course very off topic.

[Triceron]

I don’t really have any thing else to add on the Galadriel front that wouldn’t be pedantic disagreements for the Sake of it as we just see the character different.

But as far as Kratos goes id agree that the first game isn’t great story or characterizing and is more so just a foundation. Though I’d disagree that story and characterization isn’t strong in the series as a hole the problem is mostly that getting a deeper understanding of Kratos isn’t in the main 3 games and it’s chains of Olympus ghost of Sparta and ascension which really flesh out the story and him as a character.

But Kratos is of course very off topic.

That's exactly how I see this discussion going overall though.

Imagine people coming out of the woodwork to defend against criticisms (of the first game) of his character being uninteresting or lacking depth. It'd be just as confounding to me, because it's quite widely regarded that there isn't really anything interesting about Kratos other than what people want to project onto his 'blank slate'. It doesn't come from the character itself.

People finding interest out of Kratos being a brute bent on revenge is quite a different thing from defining him as an interesting character. And if people are openly defending criticisms against Kratos in this manner... Well that's why we're spiralling into this back and forth discussion about Galadriel in Rings of Power so far. IMO, I don't see any sensible reason to be defending her characterization as being interesting, when all that can be argued comes from a potential to be interesting.

[Monteverdi]

Can't we just enjoy the show without projecting social politics onto it? I enjoy Tolkien's works, I enjoyed the Peter Jackson adaptations, and so far I've enjoyed this show and I'm fucking sick of having to take a political stance any time I enjoy a work of fantasy fiction.

[Triceron]

Can't we just enjoy the show without projecting social politics onto it? I enjoy Tolkien's works, I enjoyed the Peter Jackson adaptations, and so far I've enjoyed this show and I'm fucking sick of having to take a political stance any time I enjoy a work of fantasy fiction.

Pretty sure you could, but these forums probably wouldn't be the place for it :P

[zEmini]

So far I feel like the pacing is slow and boring. Not a whole lot has happened yet and we are already 1/4 way through season 1

[Monteverdi]

Pretty sure you could, but these forums probably wouldn't be the place for it :P

Eh, problem is it's everywhere. We've all bought into this idea that every facet of life can and should be twisted to fit a political narrative that is largely being pushed by people with money who enrich themselves further by making sure we are emotional invested and at eachother's throats. I just want to enjoy some fantasy fiction, and honestly as a fan of Tolkien this show (while not a perfect start) has gotten off to a strong start IMO.

[Syegfryed]

not knowing the limit of those under you and how far they can be pushed is a failure of any leader. You could be a literal demigod but if you can’t complete your goal without those lesser then you and you break them before you even get to said goal your a failed leader.

And she immediately, like pointed out, realize she was wrong, again, not showing her to have any flaws, she is trough but know how to stop.

ITs also 100% bs that they even would break and she don't, are they elves or men? lmao

persuading some one to your point of view id a skill like any other the fact that they found evidence and she still couldn’t get any one to agree with her just shows how far she has failed both in keeping the trust of those around her and in persuading them to listen.

No, you are wrong, and its baffles me how you want to distort this that hard, it's like saying you as a professor, would failed at teaching high physics and mathematics to 5 years old children, not because their inability to proper understand those concepts yet, but because you are bad teacher

It's not her fault that the other elves are stupid and can't understand simple logic, she does not fail if they refuse to understand facts

Galadriel doesn’t have to miss judge the strength of there raft or trap her self while sinking to make him look competent just like all the elfs under her didn’t need to be weaker or less skilled in combat to make her look Competent.

They didn't, but that is exactly what happens because the writing is dogshit, and they are using amateurs' troops to write it

they can't write a strong or intelligent character; thus, they dumb everyone else around to make her and not-sauron better. The writing problem comes up time and time again of how they try to pass up as pseudo intelligent, complex or epic

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's exactly how I see this discussion going overall though.

Imagine people coming out of the woodwork to defend against criticisms (of the first game) of his character being uninteresting or lacking depth. It'd be just as confounding to me, because it's quite widely regarded that there isn't really anything interesting about Kratos other than what people want to project onto his 'blank slate'. It doesn't come from the character itself.

People finding interest out of Kratos being a brute bent on revenge is quite a different thing from defining him as an interesting character. And if people are openly defending criticisms against Kratos in this manner... Well that's why we're spiralling into this back and forth discussion about Galadriel in Rings of Power so far. IMO, I don't see any sensible reason to be defending her characterization as being interesting, when all that can be argued comes from a potential to be interesting.

If the first two episodes were a one off movie with a unsure future of continuation like the first GoW then Mabye I’d agree with you but the elvish demeanour would still push me towards her being more interesting then the archetype alone.

Add that we know there is more to the show and a supposed arch id just disagree.

Like if you showed me Gow 1 and told me there were a bunch of other games coming to flesh out Kratos further id be stocked to see his character develop further and I’d argue he had less going for him then Galadriel In the first game.

[InfiniteCharger]

And I've pointed out that they're deliberately made to fail in order to highlight the exceptional skill and determination of Galadriel, which is a 100% standard and established storytelling trope that happens all the time in all sorts of stories. You're creating a special situation in which you try to invalidate this trope for no good reason.


And you have the gall to talk about strawman? I point out the flaws in your argument, systematically and precisely. But instead of trying to argue against it, your defense becomes "oh you just think my opinion is bad and invalid and yours is the only one that counts". Bring ARGUMENTS, not insults and petty whining.

You calling it a trope doesn't mean it is good writing or appropriate in this particular series. It has nothing do with my point that all of them should have been competent. And I posted a trailer showing modern high fantasy combat where all of them are competent. So your point makes no sense as it is a common trope in MMOs, DnD and high fantasy that all of the team has to work together to be successful. That is one of the themes of this whole story from Tolkien. But like I said, he wrote his books decades before DnD and MMOs codified the rules of combat, skills, magic and abilities in the genre of high fantasy. And my point was if they wanted to "modernize" elements of Tolkien they could have shown more about how Elves train for combat or what kind of weapons they use, etc. But that would go against the story they are actually telling which requires Galadriel to be rejected by Gil Galad and Elrond for being to 'obsessive' in order for her to be put on a boat to Valinor, so that she can go on a swim and thus wind up on a raft with Halbrand and ultimately wind up in Numenor.

Tolkien does the same thing in his writing, as do the sources he references. Heroes coming in to save the day, and/or heroes surviving and winning when no one else could are the bread and butter of heroic storytelling. It's everywhere. This is completely standard and established for this kind of narrative.

No he doesnt. He shows people coming together and fighting together with their strengths to accomplish great things. Basically the precursor to questing and raiding in DnD and MMOs.

You don't use an army for scouting. That'd be moronic. I'm pretty sure I already went through the three steps: 1. Prove there's a threat 2. Find that threat 3. Defeat that threat. Steps 1 and 2 do not involve a massive army, because that would be inefficient and counterproductive. That's true for real-world military tactics, too. You don't use a 50,000-man army to gather intelligence or reconnoiter an area, either. What a ridiculous thought.

Don't you know that scouts are supposed to be among the cream of the crop troops since they are so far out in front of the rest of the force? How do these Elves represent the cream of the crop of the Elven armies? You keep not addressing what I actually wrote by just going on tangents. The point is these Elves are not depicted as competent at doing anything so it isn't a trope. Giving up and turning away from the leader is not a trope, it is bad writing because it is a contradiction on so many levels. It contradicts these Elves being competent. It contradicts Galadriel being badass (who should be respected because of it). It contradicts them going and looking for Sauron meaning you obviously need more than 10 men and those men should be the best and ready for what comes. But even beyond that, at no point is she shown leading an army regardless.

And as I (and others) have pointed out several times, NO ONE IS EXILING ANYONE. They're not being exiled. They're being allowed to go home. They ARE in exile. ALL OF THEM. Can you please not ignore it when people explain things to you? You keep going back to an incorrect point after it's been corrected several times by several people. That's very annoying.

The show itself has Elrond and Gil Galad explicitly stating this in the show. Now you are just really going far out of the way to contradict what is actually in the show itself. The whole point of that scene was to literally show that being on that boat was synonymous with her being bullied and rejected as a child. They literally replayed the words of her brother during that moment to reinforce this. You just refuse to accept that this literally what the point was of these scenes. That isn't even a defense it is a complete denial of reality.

Her we go again you trying to make me pointing out the flaw in your argument into me trying to prevent you from having an opinion. It gets old, man. ARGUE, don't whine. No one is trying to suppress your opinion when they're pointing out that your argument ignores the main motivating factor, and that it's no surprise if something seems inconsistent when you intentionally remove the thing that makes it consistent.

You haven't pointed out a flaw. There is no flaw in people not agreeing with you. This is your basic method of argument which is to pretend that only your opinion is correct and that anybody who disagrees is 'wrong' when having a different opinion is not always a right or wrong answer.

You can have all the opinions you like, but when you're doing something factually incorrect, people can point that out. Feel free to ignore them and just screech MUH OPINYAN, no one is trying to take that away from you.

Again, your first reply to me on this particular topic was to say it was flawed. That is the point. Lets move on.

You mean something like, I don't know, her consistently putting her obsession over the welfare of her people, to the point where they actively mutinied because she was pushing them too hard and too far? Are you saying that they didn't show this, or that this isn't a character flaw? I'm curious.

Like I said that is what a general does. That is not a character flaw. Generals and leaders of armies are always supposed to be vigilant and keeping the safety of the people their top concern. Not to mention why would she take troops with her on a mission if they couldn't hack it. Like I said it is a contradiction of writing but according to you that is a character flaw. Being concerned about your people and taking your best troops on a special mission is not a flaw. The flaw is in the writing in that they show these as troops as not being the best and not up to the task of the mission (dungeon, quest, raid, whatever) which was my point. That is not a trope. It is deliberate writing. And people in Tolkien's universe go on long quests all the time. This is the basis of all questing in DnD and MMOs to this day. So you don't even have your tropes right.

You're just lying, now. Not only is he mentioned, they literally HAVE HIS HAMMER and talk about him while HOLDING IT IN THEIR HANDS.

Did you actually watch the show? Be honest.

Feanor as the reason for the exile of the Noldor is not mentioned in the flashback. That is what I am pointing out because they don't have the rights to the Simarillion and having the hammer does not mean that they do.

https://screenrant.com/morgoth-lotr-...etails-missed/

Yes. As I've pointed out, there is basically no book material about the Galadriel of this period. I don't know why you want to counter this with "but what she did in the show isn't in the books!" when that's... the premise of my argument.

Because THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BOOKS about the Galadriel from this time. THAT'S THE POINT I WAS MAKING.

Dude. I have posted the entire story about this period multiple times. You are blatantly making up stuff and denying facts to make a point.
So there is no need for further discussion because obviously have no leg to stand on to defend your point.
The statement that there was nothing about Galadriel in this period in the books is not the same as there is no mention of Galadriel doing the things she did in this series. Big difference. This series is going against what was actually written and you are denying that. This series is not a canonical sequel to the Simarillion or canonical prequel to Lord of the Rings. They don't have the rights and it is not.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53897302

That is just a nonsensical illogical statement.

Do you actually read my posts or do you just wait for your turn to speak?


Now this is just blatantly false. It's not a "complete contradiction". There's incongruities, arising from the fact they inserted a new narrative; that's to be expected, and not uncommon for adaptations. But in no way do they "completely contradict" the books. That's a ridiculous accusation.

They don't respect her as shown numerous times in this series so far. Your argument that she is badass and awesome with flaws in no way reflects the obvious and blatant disrespect she is shown from childhood. There is no flaw in her as shown in this series justifying that. And your argument that there is nothing written about her in the books from this time period to contradict how she is depicted is blatantly false.....

I am done with you on this particular discussion because you cannot be taken seriously in saying that there is nothing written about her in this period.

[Triceron]

Eh, problem is it's everywhere. We've all bought into this idea that every facet of life can and should be twisted to fit a political narrative that is largely being pushed by people with money who enrich themselves further by making sure we are emotional invested and at eachother's throats. I just want to enjoy some fantasy fiction, and honestly as a fan of Tolkien this show (while not a perfect start) has gotten off to a strong start IMO.

Yeah but there could be forums or chat rooms that have heavier moderation or community that collectively avoids such things. This wouldn't be one of those places.

[oplawlz]

Eh, problem is it's everywhere. We've all bought into this idea that every facet of life can and should be twisted to fit a political narrative that is largely being pushed by people with money who enrich themselves further by making sure we are emotional invested and at eachother's throats. I just want to enjoy some fantasy fiction, and honestly as a fan of Tolkien this show (while not a perfect start) has gotten off to a strong start IMO.

Totally agree, if the show maintains its trajectory and doesn't start injecting {current social theme} it's gonna be awesome. People need to stop buying into the outrage machine that only benefits the politicians pushing it.
I read the books, know the lore, and can accept that the show isn't loyal to it without getting angry. Apparently we're the outliers these days.

[bledgor]

Eh, problem is it's everywhere. We've all bought into this idea that every facet of life can and should be twisted to fit a political narrative that is largely being pushed by people with money who enrich themselves further by making sure we are emotional invested and at eachother's throats. I just want to enjoy some fantasy fiction, and honestly as a fan of Tolkien this show (while not a perfect start) has gotten off to a strong start IMO.

I agree with the sentiment, but disagree strongly with the example, I find the show far from Tolkien and not a great show, 5/10 territory and it is largely carried by music and visuals to get to that mark, the dialogue, plot and such is pretty damn sub par.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And she immediately, like pointed out, realize she was wrong, again, not showing her to have any flaws, she is trough but know how to stop

she doesn’t realize she is wrong that’s why her troops abandon her.

Her second points out when they get to the top of the cliff that they are tired and Should camp for the night, she ignores them and says they push on. The elfs are having trouble in the snow storm, she initially ignores them to push on before the second call makes her look back at her men literally falling. They find the fort and her second says it’s been abandoned for decades, she ignores him and says they push on. They dispatch the troll and again her second says they should turn back, she ignores them and says they push on. Then her men abandon her.

No matter how many times her troops tell her that she’s going to far she dismisses them she never realizes that they have a point she just realizes that she can’t do it alone so she has no choice but to go back.

No, you are wrong, and its baffles me how you want to distort this that hard, it's like saying you as a professor, would failed at teaching high physics and mathematics to 5 years old children, not because their inability to proper understand those concepts yet, but because you are bad teacher

It's not her fault that the other elves are stupid and can't understand simple logic, she does not fail if they refuse to understand facts

the other elfs are not children nor does she even bring back any facts that he is still active, they don’t find a single orc or any sign of where to go next just a sigil in a abandon base which has been so for tens if not hundreds of years.

They didn't, but that is exactly what happens because the writing is dogshit, and they are using amateurs' troops to write it

they can't write a strong or intelligent character; thus, they dumb everyone else around to make her and not-sauron better. The writing problem comes up time and time again of how they try to pass up as pseudo intelligent, complex or epic

Or you know the characters just aren’t perfect and they can show them making bad calls and not being able to do every thing them selfs

[Monteverdi]

I agree with the sentiment, but disagree strongly with the example, I find the show far from Tolkien and not a great show, 5/10 territory and it is largely carried by music and visuals to get to that mark, the dialogue, plot and such is pretty damn sub par.

Eh I disagree - for now - but I want to see how it ends up. I think it's a solid, but not a perfect start, but it largely depends on how it all pans out in the end.

[Romanthony]

people are projecting hard with the "Orcs are black people" argument. Which is kind of sick that they do so tbh.
Can't say I ever thought of black people when seeing an orc.

Well the article also attacks the film, Saying how all the heroes are White people, and yet the Villian "The Witch king" is played by a black man. And I mean I didnt even know that because you dont even see who it is under the mask even when he dies.

[Syegfryed]

she doesn’t realize she is wrong that’s why her troops abandon her.

Nope, they decide to abandon her because the writers need us to artificially make us like her, and by the group abandoning her is a good way to make the audience feels sympathetic, but the nonsensical scenario just ruins the mood and the intent by making her look like an idiot

First of all, they have an elite group to search for someone, they think for sure is dead, despite being an immortal being, she tries to make so that everyone just forgot about Sauron, - just to burrow the speech of people forgetting about the one ring - but they immediately decide to leave, the moment they find sollid proof he is around.

And to try to make it look like a heavy and epic scene they throw their swords away, like there are not in the middle of fucking nowhere and another toll can come up with it

Her second points out when they get to the top of the cliff that they are tired and Should camp for the night, she ignores them and says they push on. The elfs are having trouble in the snow storm, she initially ignores them to push on before the second call makes her look back at her men literally falling. They find the fort and her second says it’s been abandoned for decades, she ignores him and says they push on. They dispatch the troll and again her second says they should turn back, she ignores them and says they push on. Then her men abandon her.

Again, if she is not tired the others would not be as well, cause they are elite fighters, this isn't legolas with a bunch of hobbits, its a nonsensical scene to show how her stronger and they are weaker and dumber for ditching her when she actually, finaly have proof.

They isntead of going for one route, try to do both, the "failled leadership" and the actually "successful journey" and in the end it just diminishes the whole deal

No matter how many times her troops tell her that she’s going to far she dismisses them she never realizes that they have a point she just realizes that she can’t do it alone so she has no choice but to go back.

Because she is right and they are wrong, she is strong and they are weak, their point is not "we can't continue because we are exaushted Galadriel" they don't want to continue because nonsense plot issues.

the other elfs are not children nor does she even bring back any facts that he is still active, they don’t find a single orc or any sign of where to go next just a sigil in a abandon base which has been so for tens if not hundreds of years.

They DO say they didn't encounter an orc for years, and they were searching for centuries, so they did find orcs with at least Whitin a century, and they just found his fortress with a sigil

If that is not proof that an immortal being is not yet dead, then again, tis not her fault, but everyone, by plot reasons, not wanting to believe something logical is factual

Or you know the characters just aren’t perfect and they can show them making bad calls and not being able to do every thing them selfs

Yeah keep coping with that, for sure everything is well planned and nuanced, sorry, maybe i misread those moments because the SHITY and clunky dialogue, i though for a second i was watching star wars prequels.

[BigToast]

Pretty good so far. Looking forward to more/where they go with things. Favorite part was Elrond & Durin.

Just to put the Troll controversy at rest. The troll in the Peter Jackson film was level 25 while that one they ran into in Rings of Power was only level 3. Duh.

[Triceron]

she doesn’t realize she is wrong that’s why her troops abandon her.

Her second points out when they get to the top of the cliff that they are tired and Should camp for the night, she ignores them and says they push on. The elfs are having trouble in the snow storm, she initially ignores them to push on before the second call makes her look back at her men literally falling. They find the fort and her second says it’s been abandoned for decades, she ignores him and says they push on. They dispatch the troll and again her second says they should turn back, she ignores them and says they push on. Then her men abandon her.

No matter how many times her troops tell her that she’s going to far she dismisses them she never realizes that they have a point she just realizes that she can’t do it alone so she has no choice but to go back.

That's what makes her characterization unrelatable though. She's not wise at all, and is single-minded. And her men consistently challenge her, showing that she isn't given the respect of authority of someone actually in command. And there's no character that can actually reasonable challenge her at that point in time; her second in command dude is still under her authority and can only give her options; what he did by giving that ultimatum would be considered insubordinence. The story isn't very sensible or relatable.

Compare it to how Warcraft 3 depicted a similar scenario with Arthas commanding his troops to go to Northrend and Uther telling him to back down. That works because Uther is in a position of authority that can challenge Arthas. The scene would play out completely differently if it were 'Unnamed Captain' having this conversation with Arthas. No matter how reasonable the Captain may be in saying this is the King's orders or whatnot, Arthas would still be unchallenged and in the right because he has military authority and command of his men. Arthas is respected by his own men, and that lends into his characterization as a strong leader, even in the face of making hard decisions. That makes him understandable and relatable. If he were introduced to the story with his troops constantly undermining his commands, he would be a very different character.

That's why Galadriel's character is hard to relate to. Her characterization and the characterization of those around her don't really shine a good light on her, and they don't make sense even if their motivations may be reasonable.

I think it would have been better if they had her actually be written to be wise and make wise decisions. For example, she could have the wellbeing of her troops be the reason why she is unable to push forward. It wouldn't really downplay her need for vengeance, and it would still make her actions reasonable enough to be relatable. Instead she's shown to be irrational in wanting to push forward regardless of her troop's condition, and backing down only when given an ultimatum, while her irrationality is justified by her being right about the Evil. It's a very messy premise, and doesn't really do anything for her character development. The rest of the show literally carries on illustrating how her irrationality is consistently being proved to be a 'right' decision.

[Biomega]

You calling it a trope doesn't mean it is good writing or appropriate in this particular series.

I'm not talking about quality, as I've stated many times. I'm saying that this isn't a situation where you can realistically leverage criticism against the logical consistency of the situation, because what's happening here is an accepted convention of that kind of writing. You'd have to show why this is SPECIAL - not just go "it doesn't make sense!" because that was never a consideration in the first place. That's how tropes work. You accept their flaws in favor of their effect. They're useful, even if they're not entirely logically consistent.

If you think it's NOT useful in this case, show why. Logical consistency is not up for debate, because everyone agrees from the start to suspend that particular disbelief in a trope.

So your point makes no sense as it is a common trope in MMOs, DnD and high fantasy that all of the team has to work together to be successful. That is one of the themes of this whole story from Tolkien.

Just going "it could have been done in a different way" isn't enough. You'd have to show why and how another way would have been BETTER. There's countless tropes. Which one is used when and over an alternative one are storytelling decisions made all the time; if you think this could have been done better, justify it. Don't just show that alternatives exist, make a case for why they're superior.

No he doesnt. He shows people coming together and fighting together with their strengths to accomplish great things.

I'd invite you to review large battles and see how many of them are either outright won by the actions of heroic individuals, or how many of them feature massive casualties that exclude the heroic individuals. This isn't rocket science - heroic epics involve heroes showing up and doing stuff other people can't. The Witch King of Angmar was not killed by the concerted effort of 50 brave Gondorian soldiers "fighting together with their strengths to accomplish a great thing", he was single-handedly killed by one woman and one halfling, who happened to achieve a feat impossible to hundreds if not thousands who came before them.

THAT is Tolkien. He writes this in a long tradition of similar myth and narrative, from Beowulf to the Edda to more modern tales. They all work like that. Hero shows up, hero kills big bad. Almost NONE of them go "and then the 20 brave unnamed soldiers remembered their training and worked together to kill the evil monster". That's just not the genre. At best you'd get "and then the hero showed up and the 20 brave unnamed soldiers who were previously helpless remembered what they're fighting for and under the hero's leadership worked together to kill the evil monster". AT BEST.

Don't you know that scouts are supposed to be among the cream of the crop troops since they are so far out in front of the rest of the force? How do these Elves represent the cream of the crop of the Elven armies?

How do they NOT? What's your argument, that unless you can fight at peak efficiency after being starved and death-marched across a frozen wasteland, you're not the "cream of the crop"? And where does this idea of scouts being the best of your troops come from anyway? You're sending a small group of people into the unknown with little to no backup, and you're saying "of COURSE I'd risk my best people on that, what could go wrong"?

We have no idea how the average soldier would have fared in that situation. For all we know, Rando Elfo #3 would have died of exposure and starvation weeks ago, and the only reason ANY of them are still standing is because they ARE the elite of the elite. Galadriel is just a step above still, which isn't surprising considering she's been touted as the greatest Noldor in, you know, ALL OF TIME.

All we have in relative comparison is her performance. We don't know how well the others do, we just know she's better. That's the point of this scene. That's all it intends to convey, and it does that. You claiming that this means the troops are on a particular standard of performance is speculation - all you have is relative power to Galadriel. You have zero basis for comparison in any other respect.

The point is these Elves are not depicted as competent at doing anything so it isn't a trope.

Wrong. They're depicted as being LESS COMPETENT THAN GALADRIEL, and specifically competence as in endurance and combat ability. We know they've endured for an extremely long time in harsh and mentally taxing conditions. The fact that they couldn't go at it for as long or as hard as one of the greatest heroes of all time, a hero that's also being driven by a relentless single-minded pursuit, shows they're "not competent at doing anything"? In what world does that make sense?

You immediately jump to generalizations again. You see them fail at one thing, and it instantly becomes them failing at everything. Why do you keep thinking like that?

Giving up and turning away from the leader is not a trope, it is bad writing because it is a contradiction on so many levels. It contradicts these Elves being competent. It contradicts Galadriel being badass (who should be respected because of it).

Nonsense. You know what's a sign of lack of competence? Following a leader BLINDLY and never questioning or resisting their orders when you feel it necessary. They were RIGHT to call her out on her mad zeal. She went too far. She pushed them too hard.

And you also seem to equate "being a badass" with "making the right decision at all time". Which is grossly fallacious. Galadriel is a badass warrior, but she has ISSUES. Her personality is screwed up by her desire for vengeance, which is precisely the thing that her entire people were ruined by in the wake of the theft of the silmaril. No one should respect Galadriel for putting in danger the lives of people who trust and follow her just so she can have her own revenge. THAT'S THE POINT HERE, and it's entirely in line with what Tolkien wrote about the Noldor and what they did in their service to their stupid oath, for which they are not deserving of respect either.

The whole point of that scene was to literally show that being on that boat was synonymous with her being bullied and rejected as a child.

What? She wasn't being "rejected", who rejected her? She was in a scuffle with kids, which is what kids do all the time. She was a headstrong individual quick to resort to solving problems with violence, just as she is now.

They literally replayed the words of her brother during that moment to reinforce this.

If that is your interpretation, you really didn't understand anything about that scene. She was talking about how you can tell right from wrong, if sometimes the two look the same - and her brother's response was that well, sometimes you just can't. This is the central problem for Galadriel: that doing good and doing bad are sometimes so similar, it's really hard to tell them apart. She's struggled with this all her life. That is the essence of the scene in LotR, too, where Frodo offers her the One Ring - that even though she was someone who wished to do good, it would turn to evil if she accepted the Ring. Because that's the line you walk when you can't clearly distinguish between the two, and if you give in to corruption you confuse one for the other. This Galadriel isn't there yet. She jumps in, because she's making a choice - she can't tell if it's the right or wrong choice, because they look so similar. But you have to make a choice. THAT is what her brother is saying.

Why on earth would this be about "you were bullied as a child" like what point is that even making. Geez.

You haven't pointed out a flaw.

Then go back read it again. I even used the word "flaw" in my original criticism. Read it again, just to be sure.

This is your basic method of argument which is to pretend that only your opinion is correct and that anybody who disagrees is 'wrong' when having a different opinion is not always a right or wrong answer.

No, that is YOUR method. I never use the word opinion, I never present anything as opinion, I consistently segment and dissect statements and systematically explain why they're problematic. YOU are the one making this into "opinions" every time, in an attempt to deflect criticism by retreating into the supposedly inviolate sanctity of "it's just my opinion, man". You can have opinions. Any opinions. You CANNOT stop others from criticizing those opinions. Get over that, and start replying with counterarguments instead of petulant rants about how nobody wants you to have an opinion.

I'm not in the habit of proffering opinions. I present arguments, backed by justification. You disagree, argue better. Don't bring up opinions again.

Feanor as the reason for the exile of the Noldor is not mentioned in the flashback. That is what I am pointing out because they don't have the rights to the Simarillion and having the hammer does not mean that they do.

Nor does it mean that he somehow wasn't the reason for their exile, that their exile never happened, or that the entire story of the silmaril didn't happen or happened in fundamentally different ways. From what we know SO FAR from the show, all that still happened, or at the very least, we have heard nothing about it NOT having happened.

Unless something actually indicates deviation from the lore, it's pointless to assume events deviated. That's idle speculation, nothing more.

There was nothing about Galadriel in this period in the books is not the same as there is no mention of Galadriel doing the things she did in this series.

And that's not what I'm saying. My entire point is that because there's nothing in the books, they're INVENTING SOMETHING. That's the STARTING POINT. "But the books don't say anything of her doing the things she's doing!" is a completely useless statement because THAT IS THE PREMISE OF THE SHOW from the get-go.

It's like someone made a film about Hedwig's life before she became Harry Potter's pet because the books never talked about that, and you go "but the books never said anything about this!". YES. THAT IS WHY WE COME UP WITH SOMETHING.

They don't respect her as shown numerous times in this series so far. Your argument that she is badass and awesome with flaws in no way reflects the obvious and blatant disrespect she is shown from childhood.

So "she got bullied once as a kid" becomes "she has been shown obvious and blatant disrespect from childhood". I think I talked about this earlier. You GOTTA stop it with the whole this thing happened once, therefore that's what always happened shtick. That's seriously messed-up logic.

People respect her plenty. They let her run rampant on her search for decades, if not centuries, supporting her on the way. Gil-galad is seriously concerned for her wellbeing. They LOVE her. You make it out like "you get to go to paradise, hopefully that will help you heal your spiritual wounds" is some sort of punishment or show of disrespect, when it's, you know, the OPPOSITE. They're doing what they're doing BECAUSE they respect her - respect also means you step in when you think someone is doing themselves or others harm. Trying to soothe her mad quest for vengeance is not disrespectful, it's loving and caring deeply for her.

Dude. I have posted the entire story about this period multiple times.

Where? Link, please. I've gone through every post in our discussion and several outside of it, and you haven't done this once. Did you do this 20 pages ago in a discussion with someone else?

Or are you just, idk, lying? I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I expect you to just go "forget it you're not worth it and it's just my opinion anyway and you don't think I'm allowed to have one right" anyway.

[bledgor]

..

Mate there isn't much a point in debating him, he is so firm in his opinion it is factual to him, even if reality differs, you can't get conversation only dogma from him and a few others here.

On the topic of Galadriel, you think they will even hint of the fact she should be married to Celeborn during the show? I give it a 50-50 they make an offhand remark that he is dead or gone. I seriously hope they don't ship her (a bit on a nose currently) with the totally not Sauron Halbrand dude. It would fuck her character even worse, not to mention it would be the 2nd human-elf relationship they are adding to lore (almost doubling Tolkiens count over all the ages).

Also looking back at a few things, they REALLY did Celebrimbor dirty. They made him appear to be much older than every other Elf (roughly same age as Gil-Galad and Galadriel), they gave him that terrible outfit, took away his friendship with the Dwarfs and gave it to Elrond, seemingly took away his love for Galadriel, and altogether haven't done much to develop the man who would craft the rings of power. They could develop him some more, but with the current cast they are focused on not to mention the Numenorean's coming up I seriously doubt he gets much screen time (Gil-Galad as well).