Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[InfiniteCharger]

Heroes of the Noldor have taken down Balrogs, Sauron's werewolf (barehanded) and one even held their ground against Morgoth long enough to wound him. It shouldn't be surprising that Galadriel, the greatest of the Noldor (save Fëanor, maybe,) would easily take down a troll.

Yes but Galadriel was not documented as one of them. And takinig down a troll is not the same as taking down Morgoth.
The problem is all of those Elves should have been able to fight that troll and take it down with or without Galadriel.
Otherwise, why have them on a search for Sauron if they cant even take out a Troll?

The bigger issue is in terms of fleshing out the story of how Elves are trained to fight and what their weapons and tactics are.
It is something they could have at least touched on in this series as all Elves are trained in the lore from a young age in athletics.
I would assume this would include some form of combat and use of weapons. Some level of combat skill and ability should be common.
Her being like an Amazonian in her youth doesn't meant that all the men are weak and inept. Compare to the Hobbit and the female and male elves.

Also, another problem I have seen so far is they must not have been big on hiring extras or using CGI to extend crowds like WETA.
Because large groups of people are notably missing from this show. Like if she is leader of the Northern Armies, then where are they? 10 men certainly isn't an army.

[bledgor]

Yes but Galadriel was not documented as one of them. And takinig down a troll is not the same as taking down Morgoth.
The problem is all of those Elves should have been able to fight that troll and take it down with or without Galadriel.
Otherwise, why have them on a search for Sauron if they cant even take out a Troll.

The bigger issue is in terms of fleshing out the story of how Elves are trained to fight and what their weapons and tactics are.
It is something they could have at least touched on in this series as all Elves are trained in the lore from a young age in athletics.
I would assume this would include some form of combat and use of weapons. Some level of combat skill and ability should be common.

Naw don't you know that being powerful automatically means you can wield a sword like the greatest warrior to ever exist? It couldn't possible mean anything else, like someone being incredible wise, a great leader, immensely knowledgeable,etc. Since people keep using his letter about her having an amazon disposition to justify whatever they want about Galadriel, can we go back to complaining about the lack of dwarven women beards, since that was in a few places?

[InfiniteCharger]

Naw don't you know that being powerful automatically means you can wield a sword like the greatest warrior to ever exist? It couldn't possible mean anything else, like someone being incredible wise, a great leader, immensely knowledgeable,etc. Since people keep using his letter about her having an amazon disposition to justify whatever they want about Galadriel, can we go back to complaining about the lack of dwarven women beards, since that was in a few places?

What they are showing is contradicting what they have been saying. So I guess now that she was exiled for infinity to the undying lands, she technically got demoted right along with her squad? Which means that whole story line was contrived to begin with as they just wanted some cool sword action and then needed someway to get Galadriel on that raft with Halbrand. And this is how the writers solved that problem of getting her from point a to point b because being on that boat was a big deal for the studio and shown in the marketing. Doesn't make sense that the high king would ignore the warnings of the 'leader of the Northern Armies' and then pick a squad of soldiers she should have been able to pick for herself from that army. But then they couldn't shown that she was being stabbed in the back by them, meaning everything about that her 'empowerment' is a contradiction. If they didn't have confidence in her skills and leadership, they never would have made her leader of an army, so them questioning her like this and then exiling her while claiming she is this leader is a contradiction. A better story would be she was made commander because of her skills and that would have been part of the flash back, not any bullying. And by the time the show starts, she literally leads an army and is using them to look for Sauron around Middle Earth.

[Adamas102]

yes, which is why he didn't, this comment just shows how ignorant and uneducated you regarding basic biology and physiology, i suggest you go and watch the scene in question again because he doesn't actually need to pierce the skull, and in fact i could do the self same thing to you without touching the cranium to achieve the same result.

Going from weirdo to psycho, huh? Yeah, that seems on brand for you.

Legolas stands on the oliphant’s neck and shoots downward towards the base of the head. There would be no way to hit the brain at that angle without needing to pierce the skull. Even the spine in that area would be protected by like 6ft worth of fat and muscle.

It was supposed to look cool, not realistic. I’m not telling you what to like or dislike. I’m telling you that trying to compare and contrast how impossible two impossible feats are is silly.

[SuperKarateDeathCar]

How you dudes and dudettes can go hundreds of pages about the same, mostly irrelevant issue, is actually baffling.

More power to you, i guess.

As for the show, so far it's been fun. Some issues, but overall an enjoyable experience, looking forward to the rest.

Yeah that's pretty much every thread. People will spend pages upon pages upon pages arguing about the most mundane and irrelevant things as if their very lives depended on it. It's very odd.

[Biomega]

Yes but Galadriel was not documented as one of them. And takinig down a troll is not the same as taking down Morgoth.
The problem is all of those Elves should have been able to fight that troll and take it down with or without Galadriel.
Otherwise, why have them on a search for Sauron if they cant even take out a Troll?

That's a pretty ridiculous complaint tbh. It's a storytelling trope, effectively just a variant of the Worf Effect (the Redshirt Army, to be precise) - the elves get beat up for the express reason that it makes the troll seem dangerous, which then makes Galadriel's swift dispatching of it appear all the more impressive. This has zero to do with her being female and is in no way exclusive to this character. It's done ALL THE TIME in fiction, in pretty much the same way.

And that is what "documents" (as you put it) Galadriel as being a badass. That's precisely why that scene exists.

Would it be more "logical" for a troop of centuries-old combat veterans to basically just fillet and mince any ol' opponent ever in no time flat? Probably. But that doesn't lend itself to sensible storytelling any more than the fact that The Flash or Superman should basically defeat any and all villain ever in a fraction of a second because 1/2mv² scales pretty ridiculously in a world of actual physics.

This is just completely normal, absolutely standard cinematic and narrative technique at work.

[InfiniteCharger]

That's a pretty ridiculous complaint tbh. It's a storytelling trope, effectively just a variant of the Worf Effect (the Redshirt Army, to be precise) - the elves get beat up for the express reason that it makes the troll seem dangerous, which then makes Galadriel's swift dispatching of it appear all the more impressive. This has zero to do with her being female and is in no way exclusive to this character. It's done ALL THE TIME in fiction, in pretty much the same way.

And that is what "documents" (as you put it) Galadriel as being a badass. That's precisely why that scene exists.

Would it be more "logical" for a troop of centuries-old combat veterans to basically just fillet and mince any ol' opponent ever in no time flat? Probably. But that doesn't lend itself to sensible storytelling any more than the fact that The Flash or Superman should basically defeat any and all villain ever in a fraction of a second because 1/2mv² scales pretty ridiculously in a world of actual physics.

This is just completely normal, absolutely standard cinematic and narrative technique at work.

And you completely are missing the point. All Elves are trained in combat and athletics from a young age. Not just Galadriel. They are on a mission to search for Sauron, so they all should be the best of the best. So that trope shouldn't even apply here as there is no payoff. Meaning, all of the men in that squad turn around and abandon her. No accolades for her actions, as opposed to a complete rejection of her mission. And then when they all get back they get exiled for infinity. So all of that badassery is completely negated by the writing. The point being if she had all these skills as an Amazon or especially fierce and athletic female, then it would be admired and respected for it. But this show is and the writing are not showing them admiring or respecting her for that or for her leadership. So it is a complete contradiction of her being badass. The only trope at work here is that she is being rejected for being female and the only way for her to find her own way is to jump off that boat and swim on the ocean. They even put in that flashback of her talking to her brother after being bullied to reinforce this notion that she has always been rejected and that we the audience should see she is right and a badass but nobody else does in universe, which is what I am calling the contradiction.

[Biomega]

And you completely are missing the point. All Elves are trained in combat and athletics from a young age. Not just Galadriel. They are on a mission to search for Sauron, so they all should be the best of the best.

That's not in line with a narrative epic, where Heroes with a capital H exist. Tolkien's writing is FULL of this, all his stories have standout characters that are unbelievably more skilled and powerful than a rando commando.

To demand this would not just be completely un-Tolkien, it would also undermine most fantasy genre conventions in general.

Galadriel was one of the greatest elves EVER, arguably THE greatest given she's in direct contention with Fëanor who aside from being a genius craftsman of god-like skill or beyond was mostly a whiny PoS and yet is usually the one cited as being the greatest. Tolkien himself saw her as such, and planned to expand on that by making her even more badass, particularly in terms of her combat abilities (he details this in some of his letters).

To somehow suggest that the elves fighting with her should be of comparable level is seriously misunderstanding the way that Tolkien wrote his stories, particularly the ones from before the Third Age.

Meaning, all of the men in that squad turn around and abandon her. No accolades for her actions, as opposed to a complete rejection of her mission. And then when they all get back they get exiled for infinity. So all of that badassery is completely negated by the writing.

Nobody is saying Galadriel isn't a badass warrior - not her troops, not Gil-galad, not anyone. The problem isn't that she isn't a ridiculously skilled warrior, it's that she's nurturing a borderline destructive obsession. And they don't get "exiled" so much as they get rewarded. Somehow you seem to read this as an ironic reward, when it's actually quite the opposite for anyone but Galadriel - the highest honor you could hope for was to return to the Undying Lands, the Arda equivalent of paradise. Middle Earth is the exile. They get to END their exile. Gil-galad doesn't do this to spite Galadriel or get her out of the way, he genuinely wants her to find peace and happiness, because he can see what her seething grudge is doing to her.

The point being if she had all these skills as an Amazon or especially fierce and athletic female, then it would be admired and respected for it.

That's not how elves think. They're far more sophisticated than that. Emotional balance is just as important - which is precisely why Fëanor is so deeply flawed. He was blessed in basically every aspect, endowed with more talent and genius than any elf before or since, to the point where he rivaled or even surpassed the gods themselves. But he was also an arrogant dickwad who couldn't let go, and that plunged an entire people into millennia of conflict and bloodshed. The shadow of that kind of emotional flaw DESPITE otherwise exalted skill is precisely what echoes in Galadriel. She the mirror image of Fëanor in many ways, except she succeeds - eventually - in overcoming her character flaws. Culminating famously in the Lord of the Rings when she finally manages to reject power, and that's what allows her to return to Valinor at last.

The only trope at work here is that she is being rejected for being female and the only way for her to find her own way is to jump off that boat and swim on the ocean. They even put in that flashback of her talking to her brother after being bullied to reinforce this notion that she has always been rejected.

That's just completely made up. Where does it say ANYTHING about all this being because she's female? When is that EVER made a topic?

She's ridiculously skilled but has serious character flaws, a literally legendary problem of the Noldor. Her being female has zero to do with it, and is never addressed or implied anywhere either in the show OR in the books.

[Xath]

Heroes of the Noldor have taken down Balrogs, Sauron's werewolf (barehanded) and one even held their ground against Morgoth long enough to wound him. It shouldn't be surprising that Galadriel, the greatest of the Noldor (save Fëanor, maybe,) would easily take down a troll.

It's not an issue of taking down a troll it's numerous other issues. Wtf are 9 elves who had trouble with a troll going to do if they find Sauron. You also have the absolute stupidity of the springboard sword. There is a difference between taking down an enemy and taking them down in that way.

Like if those elves couldn't take down a single troll with 9 of them without her going super hero mode they are just going to instant die to Sauron.

[InfiniteCharger]

That's not in line with a narrative epic, where Heroes with a capital H exist. Tolkien's writing is FULL of this, all his stories have standout characters that are unbelievably more skilled and powerful than a rando commando.

To demand this would not just be completely un-Tolkien, it would also undermine most fantasy genre conventions in general.

Galadriel was one of the greatest elves EVER, arguably THE greatest given she's in direct contention with Fëanor who aside from being a genius craftsman of god-like skill or beyond was mostly a whiny PoS and yet is usually the one cited as being the greatest. Tolkien himself saw her as such, and planned to expand on that by making her even more badass, particularly in terms of her combat abilities (he details this in some of his letters).

To somehow suggest that the elves fighting with her should be of comparable level is seriously misunderstanding the way that Tolkien wrote his stories, particularly the ones from before the Third Age.

And none of that has anything to do with what I said. The only reason we know about her being an Amazonian is from one of his letters. And in that he explains the sporting competitions that Elves have in their youth, where she stood out among the females. Which therefore means all Elves should be strong and athletic even if she is among the best of the females. Like I said, there is not any of that story line in this show and how athletic Elves are in general and what kind of skills the average Elf should have in general. So if Elves are strong and athletic in general, then all of those Elves should have been able to put up a fight against that Troll. It becomes a question of strength, abilities and skill in the group not simply her abilities by herself.

Nobody is saying Galadriel isn't a badass warrior - not her troops, not Gil-galad, not anyone. The problem isn't that she isn't a ridiculously skilled warrior, it's that she's nurturing a borderline destructive obsession. And they don't get "exiled" so much as they get rewarded. Somehow you seem to read this as an ironic reward, when it's actually quite the opposite for anyone but Galadriel - the highest honor you could hope for was to return to the Undying Lands, the Arda equivalent of paradise. Middle Earth is the exile. They get to END their exile. Gil-galad doesn't do this to spite Galadriel or get her out of the way, he genuinely wants her to find peace and happiness, because he can see what her seething grudge is doing to her.

Again, her being a badass and admired for that as a warrior would mean they would follow her and respect her opinions. Generals and leaders are supposed to always be vigilant and that is why they are given the role. It is a contradiction to claim otherwise. Just like it is a contradiction to exile one of your best warrior and leader for infinity. Not to mention again, that she is shown being bullied from early on. So the only thing the show is telling me is that they don't respect her, regardless of her skills.

That's not how elves think. They're far more sophisticated than that. Emotional balance is just as important - which is precisely why Fëanor is so deeply flawed. He was blessed in basically every aspect, endowed with more talent and genius than any elf before or since, to the point where he rivaled or even surpassed the gods themselves. But he was also an arrogant dickwad who couldn't let go, and that plunged an entire people into millennia of conflict and bloodshed. The shadow of that kind of emotional flaw DESPITE otherwise exalted skill is precisely what echoes in Galadriel. She the mirror image of Fëanor in many ways, except she succeeds - eventually - in overcoming her character flaws. Culminating famously in the Lord of the Rings when she finally manages to reject power, and that's what allows her to return to Valinor at last.


That's just completely made up. Where does it say ANYTHING about all this being because she's female? When is that EVER made a topic?

The show says it explicitly and it contradicts her being a warrior who is respected and badass.

She's ridiculously skilled but has serious character flaws, a literally legendary problem of the Noldor. Her being female has zero to do with it, and is never addressed or implied anywhere either in the show OR in the books.

She was exiled for infinity yet you wrote a paragraph of how awesome she is supposed to be? Then why did they exile her? And how is that not obviously dumb for them to do? Why would they do that if they didn't not have confidence in her even when she found the proof of Saurons presence? So why would they exile her and how is it a character flaw if she was correct? Your point doesn't make any sense.

And since you mentioned the books, she is the most wisest and respected of the Noldor and never had to fight anybody for being bullied and her word alone was enough to get them to act. What this show is saying is in no way shape or form a reflection of that. It was on her word alone that the Elves began mobilizing to thwart any of Saurons potential advances in the second age. There was no back talk, second guessing, or being exiled to the undying lands in those books.

[Biomega]

Which therefore means all Elves should be strong and athletic even if she is among the best of the females. Like I said, there is not any of that story line in this show and how athletic Elves are in general and what kind of skills the average Elf should have in general. So if Elves are strong and athletic in general, then all of those Elves should have been able to put up a fight against that Troll.

That's seriously flawed reasoning, though. "All elves should be strong and athletic" is NOT the same as "all elves should be EQUALLY strong and athletic", which would have to be the case here for Galadriel not to stand out. But that goes counter to the idea of heroes in narrative epics, which are a big part of Tolkien's inspiration and reference material, and a stated template for his mythology.

You're asking why a band of starved, exhausted, frostbitten elves aren't shown to be just as strong as a driven, grudge-fueled, heroic warrior counted among the best of her entire race in all of their history. The answer is... that's how heroic epics work.

Again, her being a badass and admired for that as a warrior would mean they would follow her and respect her opinions.

Why are you just ignoring the negatives? The followed her for centuries for those reasons; they decide to STOP following her for a DIFFERENT reason, namely that they think she's being irrational and obsessive because of her grudge and that puts them all (and herself) in danger. NOT because they suddenly stopped thinking she was a great warrior.

You can't just remove the main problem from your argument and then go "I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS HAPPENS MAKES NO SENSE". It makes no sense to you because you chose to ignore the most important part.

So the only thing the show is telling me is that they don't respect her, regardless of her skills.

The only thing YOU are telling us is that you think being a great leader is only about being a skilled warrior, and that deeply troubling character flaws somehow don't matter in how someone is regarded. Which means... you either don't understand this, or you're deliberately ignoring it to try and justify your negative reaction.

She was exiled for infinity yet you wrote a paragraph of how awesome she is supposed to be? Then why did they exile her?

You seem to have completely missed my explanation of how this "exile" works; and/or are not familiar with the lore. THEY ALREADY ARE IN EXILE. Middle Earth is their exile. The Noldor rebelled and LEFT Aman. They refused a command by their gods. Going back to the Undying Lands is ENDING their exile, it's the greatest reward they could hope for. Galadriel refuses - and deep down she knows she isn't worthy, too. That's why she remains in Middle Earth for countless more centuries, until she finally achieves the maturity to overcome her own character flaws and is worthy of returning at the end of LotR. That's, you know, the main character arc for Galadriel of the Noldor. That's the WHOLE POINT of her story (and, by extension, of the story of Fëanor, who could not overcome his flaws).

And since you mentioned the books, she is the most wisest and respected of the Noldor and never had to fight anybody for being bullied and her word alone was enough to get them to act.

That's not the Galadriel we see, because that's not the part of her life those passages talk about. They talk about early Galadriel - where she is a self-confident woman with attitude enough to metaphorically spit in the face of the greatest of her people three times; and rebel enough to defy an order by her own gods so she can sail off and wage war. And they talk about late Galadriel - where she has become a ruler and advisor in relative seclusion, and ultimately achieves enlightenment enough to return to Valinor. We see practically nothing of her from the in-between times, the height of the wars of the Noldor and Fëanor's curse. There is no book material about that Galadriel.

You're basically saying "she was X as a kid, and Y as a grandmother, SO HOW COME THE REST OF HER LIFE SHE ACTS SO DIFFERENTLY?". Yes. Why. I wonder.

[rogoth]

Going from weirdo to psycho, huh? Yeah, that seems on brand for you.

Legolas stands on the oliphant’s neck and shoots downward towards the base of the head. There would be no way to hit the brain at that angle without needing to pierce the skull. Even the spine in that area would be protected by like 6ft worth of fat and muscle.

It was supposed to look cool, not realistic. I’m not telling you what to like or dislike. I’m telling you that trying to compare and contrast how impossible two impossible feats are is silly.

factually incorrect, as shown in this image directly behind the skull, at the base of the neck it is completely unprotected by any cranial plating, the exact same as you or me with the way our skulls are formed, again, stop trying to argue about something you have zero fucking knowledge about or understanding of because it's making you look an even bigger clown than you already are by arguing with such bad faith.

yes you are, your wording is explicitly stating to like something because it's more absurd than the alternative which should be disliked at all costs, that's EXACTLY what you said, if you don't want that inference then reword your asinine comment to not have that outcome as a possibility.

[Jastall]

Man, in a setting where the most powerful Elven warriors were basically superheroes throwing down with building-sized demons and winning, why is Galadriel soloing a troll this huge lore defilement all of a sudden? The choreography was pretty bad that's for sure, but I'd think it well within her power range myself.

[rogoth]

It's not an issue of taking down a troll it's numerous other issues. Wtf are 9 elves who had trouble with a troll going to do if they find Sauron. You also have the absolute stupidity of the springboard sword. There is a difference between taking down an enemy and taking them down in that way.

Like if those elves couldn't take down a single troll with 9 of them without her going super hero mode they are just going to instant die to Sauron.

that would imply the sword actually bent upon impact of her foot which it didn't to my eyes, the wire work was too eager.

[Biomega]

Man, in a setting where the most powerful Elven warriors were basically superheroes throwing down with building-sized demons and winning, why is Galadriel soloing a troll this huge lore defilement all of a sudden?

Because the character is a lady, and the internet exists. That would be my guess.

[rogoth]

Man, in a setting where the most powerful Elven warriors were basically superheroes throwing down with building-sized demons and winning, why is Galadriel soloing a troll this huge lore defilement all of a sudden? The choreography was pretty bad that's for sure, but I'd think it well within her power range myself.

you have missed the point of the critique, it's not an issue she can singlehandedly defeat a troll, it's the fact that her entire company was getting demolished utterly, and only served to be fodder for her 'super duper awesome power sword spinner attack', why was a well drilled elven military unit (despite not being remotely a thing in the lore surrounding galadriel but i digress), not capable of taking down a single troll yet warrior goddess over here was able to manage in a single hit?, it's shambolic writing of the highest order and just shows the quality or lack thereof that this show is built upon.

[eschatological]

you have missed the point of the critique, it's not an issue she can singlehandedly defeat a troll, it's the fact that her entire company was getting demolished utterly, and only served to be fodder for her 'super duper awesome power sword spinner attack', why was a well drilled elven military unit (despite not being remotely a thing in the lore surrounding galadriel but i digress), not capable of taking down a single troll yet warrior goddess over here was able to manage in a single hit?, it's shambolic writing of the highest order and just shows the quality or lack thereof that this show is built upon.

As people have pointed out multiple times to you, this is a very common trope in storytelling, both literary (especially in Tolkein), and on film/in TV. And no one blinks when it's some other heroic figure - you seem to just have a problem with this version of that trope.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Man the show must be really good if even the most avid haters are actually arguing that the elephant stunt in the movies makes more sense then taking down a troll instead of on any real issues with what we have seen so far.

[SuperKarateDeathCar]

factually incorrect, as shown in this image directly behind the skull, at the base of the neck it is completely unprotected by any cranial plating, the exact same as you or me with the way our skulls are formed, again, stop trying to argue about something you have zero fucking knowledge about or understanding of because it's making you look an even bigger clown than you already are by arguing with such bad faith.

yes you are, your wording is explicitly stating to like something because it's more absurd than the alternative which should be disliked at all costs, that's EXACTLY what you said, if you don't want that inference then reword your asinine comment to not have that outcome as a possibility.

looooooooooooooooooooooooooool really? You guys sometimes are too much XD

[Syegfryed]

People are focusing too much on the cast and ignoring how fucking bad everything else is. Well, the scenario, the troll, the cgi is gorgeous, very good, but everything else, jesus

- First, Galadriel actress is not fit for the character imo, maybe it's how they dressed her in most scenes or her bitch-ass attitude, but it completely destroys the image i had of her and not just from the movies

- The dialogue is awful, "the stone look down" my ass, they tried to make too much connection with the movie, but it's just don't have the same delivery or weight, is bland or bad. The acting too, sometimes they look like they are just reading the script.

- You start with kids bickering with Galadriel because she builds a boat??????? Ok, maybe they want to us feel empathy, cause bullying a kid, but she immediately starts beating the shit out of the other kid, she doesn't need empathy or help, she kicked his ass. Why would they bully her if they knew they would be beaten? or this is the first time it ever happened? This is a 100% useless scene.

- I'm don't know too much about stuff that far back in the mythos, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't t Morgoth and Ungoliant, that destroyed the tree and not him alone? Also, the elves only went after him when he stole the Silimarilions and killed some elf-king. Did they had to change that because they don't have the rights? the reason i can understand, but why leave the spider away, when there is one of her offspring in lord of the rings?

- It though the elves were already in middle-earth, i think even Galadriel uncle was there, but they make it look like there wasn't, or did i missed something, how she does not know about her uncle there?

- Sauron didn't kill Finrod, a weird change, that i don't care much, cause they prob wanted to make it heavier to Galadriel, but "the mark???" is bs, tis supposed to remind the eye or mordor map? cause it sure as hell don' look like mordor.

- The troll fight was pathetic, i laugh my ass off cause i dislike elves, but even i know this is sad, they got their ass kicked by a troll (who i don't know how it lived there so many years without food, i guess eating orcs leftovers, but meh), a troll my guy, the elves were supposed to be stronger at that age, but they sucked, the sword jump was even more ridiculous than the hobbit barrel walking.

- How many elves were actually in there, 7-8-9??? how you get this wrong? this is not like a cup of coffee left in the scenario and you forgot....

- Elrold, they make it like he is a nobody, why?

- Pretty sure its Gil'galad that warn the elves about Sauron but looks like everry elf is a dumb dumb to show how Galadriel is more amazing.

Im sure there is more things wrong that people with far more knowledge than me can point, but those bothered me, i didn't even got to second episode yet, but if the first episode was this mess i can't see looking any better