Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Jastall]

you have missed the point of the critique, it's not an issue she can singlehandedly defeat a troll, it's the fact that her entire company was getting demolished utterly, and only served to be fodder for her 'super duper awesome power sword spinner attack', why was a well drilled elven military unit (despite not being remotely a thing in the lore surrounding galadriel but i digress), not capable of taking down a single troll yet warrior goddess over here was able to manage in a single hit?, it's shambolic writing of the highest order and just shows the quality or lack thereof that this show is built upon.

And that's different from the Mumakil running roughshod over the Rohorrim until a certain elven superhero oneshot it and its entire crew how, exactly? The show didn't exactly invent the existence of redshirts. Hell in the books Tolkien literally talks about how great heroes like Aragorn or Prince Imrahil were left intact by the Pellenor Fields because they were so cool and badass and had super special ancestry and shit, but the poor peasants that were mere mortals weren't so lucky and died in droves. Sucks to be them.

I will agree it's an egregious example and poorly choreographed, but the people making a mountain out of this molehill better not be fans of every action movie ever where the villains mow down everything in their passage while the hero get to roundhouses kick them in face due to the power of plot armor and we're supposed to cheer because he's so cool, yo.

[rogoth]

As people have pointed out multiple times to you, this is a very common trope in storytelling, both literary (especially in Tolkein), and on film/in TV. And no one blinks when it's some other heroic figure - you seem to just have a problem with this version of that trope.

yes, because it's not set up in any way, it's not hinted at or outright stated, it's just wilhelm screams aplenty followed up by an out of the blue perfectly relaxed and choreographed stunt that comes out of nowhere, in other media that sort of thing is hinted at beforehand so that when it does occur, it's expected from that character, not so here, but again i'm talking mostly to a brick wall here i feel.

[Dhrizzle]

where is that shown in the show so far?

Howabout when she took down a snow-troll with little effort?

[rogoth]

And that's different from the Mumakil running roughshod over the Rohorrim until a certain elven superhero oneshot it and its entire crew how, exactly? The show didn't exactly invent the existence of redshirts. Hell in the books Tolkien literally talks about how great heroes like Aragorn or Prince Imrahil were left intact by the Pellenor Fields because they were so cool and badass and had super special ancestry and shit, but the poor peasants that were mere mortals weren't so lucky and died in droves. Sucks to be them.

I will agree it's an egregious example and poorly choreographed, but the people making a mountain out of this molehill better not be fans of every action movie ever where the villains mow down everything in their passage while the hero get to roundhouses kick them in face due to the power of plot armor and we're supposed to cheer because he's so cool, yo.

i have already addressed this elephant in the room (ha, i made a punny), it had nothing to do with what he did, as it had been set up in the previous films that he was gonna do something special, so when Aragorn shouts his name and he begins to leap towards the legs of the animal, you knew what to expect, with this, there's no past to show her being the super power warrior goddess she is portrayed as being, there's no hint to show she might be a more powerful being than those around her, not a fucking sniff of scrap to give the audience an expectation that 'yeah that's to be expected from her', it just happens, and that's it.

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Howabout when she took down a snow-troll with little effort?

see my comment above.

[Syegfryed]

If they made her split from her group, like, all alone against the troll, that would be badass and show her powers better.

But the troll beat the shit out of the elves like they were men, it shows everyone is so fucking weak, when they would not be that far behind in physical power compared to her

[Dhrizzle]

And you completely are missing the point. All Elves are trained in combat and athletics from a young age. Not just Galadriel. They are on a mission to search for Sauron, so they all should be the best of the best. So that trope shouldn't even apply here as there is no payoff. Meaning, all of the men in that squad turn around and abandon her. No accolades for her actions, as opposed to a complete rejection of her mission. And then when they all get back they get exiled for infinity. So all of that badassery is completely negated by the writing. The point being if she had all these skills as an Amazon or especially fierce and athletic female, then it would be admired and respected for it. But this show is and the writing are not showing them admiring or respecting her for that or for her leadership. So it is a complete contradiction of her being badass. The only trope at work here is that she is being rejected for being female and the only way for her to find her own way is to jump off that boat and swim on the ocean. They even put in that flashback of her talking to her brother after being bullied to reinforce this notion that she has always been rejected and that we the audience should see she is right and a badass but nobody else does in universe, which is what I am calling the contradiction.

You understand that for the Elves the Undying Lands are literally heaven, right? They bask in the spiritual glow of the literal gods and know no hardship or suffering. Every Elf in Middle-earth feels a longing to go West, one that is enhanced in those who had already dwelt there. For everyone on that boat this "exile" is their deepest desire. In the canon Galadriel was offered pardon by the Valar and refused it as she felt there was still a dark stain left in the wake of Morgoth and it was her duty to contest it (with a hint of her still wishing to dominate lands of her own.) The boat ride allows the showrunners to portray the same decision being made without falling foul of the licensing agreement.

The scene with her brother was mostly an Easter egg with the (presumed) sons of Fëanor sinking her boat as an allusion to the First Kinslaying.

And she isn't being rejected for being female, she's being rejected for being a voice of war when everyone else wants peace. Canonically Galadriel knew there was a dark threat looming but for everyone else she seems driven by the loss of her brother.

[Biomega]

- First, Galadriel actress is not fit for the character imo, maybe it's how they dressed her in most scenes or her bitch-ass attitude, but it completely destroys the image i had of her and not just from the movies

I agree. Unless that actress somehow miraculously transforms into something else entirely, it'll be one of the if not the biggest problems of the show.

- I'm don't know too much about stuff that far back in the mythos, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't t Morgoth and Ungoliant, that destroyed the tree and not him alone? Also, the elves only went after him when he stole the Silimarilions and killed some elf-king. Did they had to change that because they don't have the rights? the reason i can understand, but why leave the spider away, when there is one of her offspring in lord of the rings?

My guess is there's some rights shenanigans going on there. But then they mentioned Silmaril etc. in Ep2 so I have no idea. It feels very weird not even to hint at Ungolianth, you don't need to like explain all the details but showing some spider legs or whatever would that really have been too much. Who knows. These legal waters be murky.

- It though the elves were already in middle-earth, i think even Galadriel uncle was there, but they make it look like there wasn't, or did i missed something, how she does not know about her uncle there?

It's complicated. The elves awoke in Middle Earth originally, but were called by the Valar to migrate to Valinor. Some refused (Avari), some stopped halfway through the journey (Nandor), some got lost (Teleri, later Falathrim and Sindar) while the rest settled in Valinor (Vanyar and Noldor). Galadriel is of the Noldor, and was herself born in Valinor. After the theft of the Silmaril, many of the Noldor rebelled against the Valar and decided to move back to Middle Earth to reclaim what was stolen; Galadriel was among them. This resulted in effective exile from Valinor, and they were for the longest time not allowed to return.

- The troll fight was pathetic, i laugh my ass off cause i dislike elves, but even i know this is sad, they got their ass kicked by a troll (who i don't know how it lived there so many years without food, i guess eating orcs leftovers, but meh), a troll my guy, the elves were supposed to be stronger at that age, but they sucked, the sword jump was even more ridiculous than the hobbit barrel walking.

Keep in mind they were ambushed, and they were severely exhausted from a grueling march across a frozen wastes for who knows how long. Yes launching off a sword is ridiculous, but most of the rest isn't that bad. Galadriel knows how to kill things. She's had CENTURIES of practice, on top of being ridiculously talented to begin with given she's one of the greatest elves in all of history. Her keeping her fighting shape while everyone else is half collapsed is just showing her determination - with all the positives AND negatives attached to that kind of single-mindedness.

- Elrold, they make it like he is a nobody, why?

He wasn't exactly a major player at the time. He only really rose to prominence after Gil-galad's death. And there's a reason he's a bit of an outsider: his cognomen is Elrond Halfelven - his grandfather on his father's side was Beren, a human; the first human in fact who had ever married an elf (Lúthien). His mixed ancestry means that everyone in his line gets to choose whether they want to be immortal like an elf, or eventually die like a human. Elrond's brother Elros chose to be mortal, while Elrond chose immortality. His daughter Arwen later also chose to die. It's that half-elven heritage that makes Elrond a bit obscure in the eyes of the other elf lords.

- Pretty sure its Gil'galad that warn the elves about Sauron but looks like everry elf is a dumb dumb to show how Galadriel is more amazing.

Galadriel is an obsessed zealot. She's not thinking straight. Gil-galad is doing what he thinks is best for his people, and acts based on actual evidence. It's not like he's looking Sauron in the eye going THERE IS NO WAR IN BA SING LINDON. He acts when circumstances change; he in fact personally defeats Sauron later.

Does the show properly show all that? Maybe they're not doing a good enough job. But it's only two episodes in. We'll have to see how things develop, and how characters act going forward.

yes, because it's not set up in any way, it's not hinted at or outright stated

That's because... this IS the hint and statement and setup? That scene's entire purpose is to show "this character don't give a shit if it's cold and she's hungry, she is a badass with a single-minded purpose to FUCK YOU UP if you cross her".

You're looking at something 3 minutes into the show and complaining there's no buildup. That's... weird.

[Jastall]

i have already addressed this elephant in the room (ha, i made a punny), it had nothing to do with what he did, as it had been set up in the previous films that he was gonna do something special, so when Aragorn shouts his name and he begins to leap towards the legs of the animal, you knew what to expect, with this, there's no past to show her being the super power warrior goddess she is portrayed as being, there's no hint to show she might be a more powerful being than those around her, not a fucking sniff of scrap to give the audience an expectation that 'yeah that's to be expected from her', it just happens, and that's it.

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see my comment above.

Or maybe the point of the scene is to show she's a superhuman warrior in the first place, rather than having someone tell us "well good golly gosh, this Galadriel woman sure is handy in a tussle!" without showing it. Much like, say, the movies established the threat of Sauron by having him stride menacingly and literally send people flying with his mace. Did you complain that there was no build-up to that either?

In the face of what the show does get wrong (which is a lot of things), those complaints sound completely hollow and petty to me.

[Syegfryed]

My guess is there's some rights shenanigans going on there. But then they mentioned Silmaril etc. in Ep2 so I have no idea. It feels very weird not even to hint at Ungolianth, you don't need to like explain all the details but showing some spider legs or whatever would that really have been too much. Who knows. These legal waters be murky.

If they actually mention it later, then its prob just they messing up stuff like they did so far, a lot of lore was changed for no apparent reason

It's complicated. The elves awoke in Middle Earth originally, but were called by the Valar to migrate to Valinor. Some refused (Avari), some stopped halfway through the journey (Nandor), some got lost (Teleri, later Falathrim and Sindar) while the rest settled in Valinor (Vanyar and Noldor). Galadriel is of the Noldor, and was herself born in Valinor. After the theft of the Silmaril, many of the Noldor rebelled against the Valar and decided to move back to Middle Earth to reclaim what was stolen; Galadriel was among them. This resulted in effective exile from Valinor, and they were for the longest time not allowed to return.

So, there was elves in middle earth, but they make it look like there wasn't, and i can't think of a reason why, since they would know about then, hell, Galadriel was a scholar, she would know about her uncle being king there.

And the Noldor didn't like, slaughtered the Telari to take their ships??? this seems like a BIG thing to left away from the plot

Keep in mind they were ambushed, and they were severely exhausted from a grueling march across a frozen wastes for who knows how long. Yes launching off a sword is ridiculous, but most of the rest isn't that bad. Galadriel knows how to kill things. She's had CENTURIES of practice, on top of being ridiculously talented to begin with given she's one of the greatest elves in all of history. Her keeping her fighting shape while everyone else is half collapsed is just showing her determination - with all the positives AND negatives attached to that kind of single-mindedness.

If they were exhausted Galadriel should not have some exhaustion herself? Did they not went through the same journey? come on now.

Of course, she would be able to slay a single troll, just like any other elf in that age, but they did not show that, they showed how they sucked ass

Those scenes just show she was a bitch, and we do know she wasn't, like when leaving the elf to die and push forward, would she do that?

He wasn't exactly a major player at the time. He only really rose to prominence after Gil-galad's death. And there's a reason he's a bit of an outsider: his cognomen is Elrond Halfelven - his grandfather on his father's side was Beren, a human; the first human in fact who had ever married an elf (Lúthien). His mixed ancestry means that everyone in his line gets to choose whether they want to be immortal like an elf, or eventually die like a human. Elrond's brother Elros chose to be mortal, while Elrond chose immortality. His daughter Arwen later also chose to die. It's that half-elven heritage that makes Elrond a bit obscure in the eyes of the other elf lords.

He was as much major as Galadriel, in fact, it does seems like they reversed their roles.

Galadriel is an obsessed zealot. She's not thinking straight. Gil-galad is doing what he thinks is best for his people, and acts based on actual evidence. It's not like he's looking Sauron in the eye going THERE IS NO WAR IN BA SING LINDON. He acts when circumstances change; he in fact personally defeats Sauron later.

Right, but Galadriel is a zealot like that in the books? to be that much obsessed in vengeance alone? Plus, even so, it was him that warn the elves, not her.

Does the show properly show all that? Maybe they're not doing a good enough job. But it's only two episodes in. We'll have to see how things develop, and how characters act going forward.

We have two episodes in, and the writing is this awful, the changes nonsensical, and the passing is not good, we have what, 6 more, i can't see how this can get any better, usually you grab people by the first two episodes, like Sandman did


also, i HAVE to make a comment about when she jumps from the boat, how many miles did she swim, in the sea, with no food or water, with just the vague idea where the land is? how and why did she think it was good idea man? those things could just not be in the show and would make much more enjoyable...

[Adamas102]

factually incorrect, as shown in this image directly behind the skull, at the base of the neck it is completely unprotected by any cranial plating, the exact same as you or me with the way our skulls are formed, again, stop trying to argue about something you have zero fucking knowledge about or understanding of because it's making you look an even bigger clown than you already are by arguing with such bad faith.

“Completely unprotected” as he points to what would amount to several feet of fat, muscle, and bone that an animal of the correct size would have . Are you blind or just willfully ignorant?

We have 3 movies to see the penetrating power of Legolas’ arrows. Hell, he couldn’t even bring down an unarmored Uruk berserker with two hits from relatively close range. He’s fast and he’s accurate, but he’s not getting through the amount of tissue and bone it would take to hit the brain (or any vital organ) from that angle. He even tried that trick on the cave troll in Fellowship (a much smaller creature) and it turned out exactly as one would expect.

“stop being a fucking weirdo and trying to argue that one is more farcical than the other” was the exact quote of mine. If you think that in anyway suggests that I think one is indeed more farcical than the other AND that I’m telling you which you should like or dislike then your reading comprehension is beyond abysmal.

[Biomega]

If they were exhausted Galadriel should not have some exhaustion herself? Did they not went through the same journey? come on now.

That's my point. Of course she was. But she didn't care. That's the purpose of that scene: to show that she is not going to stop, not ever. Come what may. You get in her way, you get cut down.

Those scenes just show she was a bitch, and we do know she wasn't, like when leaving the elf to die and push forward, would she do that?

That's also very much intentional. It's no coincidence Galadriel is often mentioned in comparison to Fëanor. She is his counterpart, all the pride and selfishness that made the Noldor so susceptible to Fëanor's curse, though unlike him she manages to overcome it in the end. She was not a nice person at many times in her life. The Galadriel from LotR is THOUSANDS of years later. It's not how she started. And it's not what she is at the time of this show.

He was as much major as Galadriel, in fact, it does seems like they reversed their roles.

In LotR, which is thousands of years later. It was not the case at this point in time. Galadriel is much older than Elrond. He wasn't born in Valinor, he had never even been there. Elrond did not start out as the ring-bearing lord he is in LotR.

Right, but Galadriel is a zealot like that in the books? to be that much obsessed in vengeance alone? Plus, even so, it was him that warn the elves, not her.

We don't really have books to go by for this. There isn't enough material on Galadriel that covers her actions during this time; in fact she's mostly absent from events as described. However, we know Tolkien planned to change her into more of a warrior type. He talks about his plans in his letters, wishing to expand her into an amazon-like character featured in more stories. He just never got to write them before he died. The show is taking liberties with the character based on that, since there isn't really much actual source material, just snippets here and there.

We have two episodes in, and the writing is this awful, the changes nonsensical, and the passing is not good, we have what, 6 more, i can't see how this can get any better, usually you grab people by the first two episodes, like Sandman did

I'm not too happy with the first 2 either, but to be fair, I also didn't think Sandman was that great until after the 24h diner episode. It really picks up in the second half. I'll give this a bit more time; but not too much more. At least it's not WoT.

also, i HAVE to make a comment about when she jumps from the boat, how many miles did she swim, in the sea, with no food or water, with just the vague idea where the land is? how and why did she think it was good idea man? those things could just not be in the show and would make much more enjoyable...

It is a bit silly. I'd have just made it so she sees a Númenoran ship in the distance, and that gives her the idea to jump. She swims towards them, gets picked up, and gets shipped straight to Númenor. That whole castaway bullshit with the sea serpent was completely unnecessary and boring.

[s_bushido]

Those scenes just show she was a bitch, and we do know she wasn't, like when leaving the elf to die and push forward, would she do that?

Do we know she wasn't a bitch? She basically told Frodo that if she took the ring, she'd become another Sauron. Galadriel being more complex than "a pretty lady who fights evil and doesn't afraid" isn't exactly unprecedented. But notably, she did turn back to help the elf who had fallen when she saw why they asked her to stop. I don't really see the point in lying about the scene. But maybe that's just me.

[eschatological]

i have already addressed this elephant in the room (ha, i made a punny), it had nothing to do with what he did, as it had been set up in the previous films that he was gonna do something special, so when Aragorn shouts his name and he begins to leap towards the legs of the animal, you knew what to expect, with this, there's no past to show her being the super power warrior goddess she is portrayed as being, there's no hint to show she might be a more powerful being than those around her, not a fucking sniff of scrap to give the audience an expectation that 'yeah that's to be expected from her', it just happens, and that's it.

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see my comment above.

In the very first scene we ever see of Legolas fighting in Fellowship, he literally does a multi-shot, kills multiple goblins with arrows and in melee....and then dodges multiple chain swings from a cave troll, until the chain embeds in a pillar, at which point he.....dashes up the chain, up the trolls arm, on top of its head, and fires arrows into the back of its head, just like the oliphant.

The. very. first. scene.

[rogoth]

In the very first scene we ever see of Legolas fighting in Fellowship, he literally does a multi-shot, kills multiple goblins with arrows and in melee....and then dodges multiple chain swings from a cave troll, until the chain embeds in a pillar, at which point he.....dashes up the chain, up the trolls arm, on top of its head, and fires arrows into the back of its head, just like the oliphant.

The. very. first. scene.

wrong, the scene that sets the precedent comes long before they are even in the mines of moria, it comes when the fellowship is trying to take the pass of caradhras and get foiled by saruman, legolas shows his 'elven skill' by walking on the snow that has freshly fallen, which gandalf then mimics to get the same vantage point as him, that's the subtle and understated first instance of elves being different to men/dwarves/hobbits in the PJ film trilogy.

[Fantomen]

“Completely unprotected” as he points to what would amount to several feet of fat, muscle, and bone that an animal of the correct size would have . Are you blind or just willfully ignorant?

A historical handler/rider of a war elefant did have a hammer and a spike, so he can kill the elephant fast (by driving the spike into ito the top of the head) if the elefant is out of controll.

Do I think a bow can do the same? No, do I think a fantasy elf who have a fantasy bow can do it.... maybe....but it puch the suspension of disbelief.

[eschatological]

wrong, the scene that sets the precedent comes long before they are even in the mines of moria, it comes when the fellowship is trying to take the pass of caradhras and get foiled by saruman, legolas shows his 'elven skill' by walking on the snow that has freshly fallen, which gandalf then mimics to get the same vantage point as him, that's the subtle and understated first instance of elves being different to men/dwarves/hobbits in the PJ film trilogy.

But that's not a show of his martial or combat prowess. He doesn't even break a sweat with the cave troll. It mirrors the oliphant scene utterly. It's the first time we see him fight.

You're telling me him being light-of-foot on the snow is "setting up" for his combat feats? Presumably every elf could do that?

[Biomega]

Do we know she wasn't a bitch?

If anything, we know she WAS

When Fëanor asked for locks of her hair she gave him the finger. Three times. She was a sass lass from day 1.

It took several millennia for her to mellow out to the point where she could come back to Valinor. Longest chill pill timeout in history.

[rogoth]

But that's not a show of his martial or combat prowess. He doesn't even break a sweat with the cave troll. It mirrors the oliphant scene utterly. It's the first time we see him fight.

You're telling me him being light-of-foot on the snow is "setting up" for his combat feats? Presumably every elf could do that?

yes, because it made him running up the chain like he did not seem out of the ordinary and something he would be very capable of doing thanks to the few seconds we saw of him previously doing something similar, and because the second instance of this kind of thing happening was in combat it's showing the viewer that he can do that under any circumstance, it's not a special thing only possible at certain times or under certain conditions.

no, not every elf could, some were more adept at the technique than others, and it's explained in the hobbit when bilbo and the dwarves are traversing mirkwood that the elves were so fleet of foot and so light on their feet they made no sound up in the trees, and it appears that this skill was something of a wood elf speciality, not something seen by the elves of eregion.

[bledgor]

As people have pointed out multiple times to you, this is a very common trope in storytelling, both literary (especially in Tolkein), and on film/in TV. And no one blinks when it's some other heroic figure - you seem to just have a problem with this version of that trope.

People have a problem when a character who has never done this from the source does this, especially when said people are supposed to be with an elite troop hunting the biggest bad. Yes you could argue it happens in 90s or 90s style action films, but this isn't that type of movie, so the same standards don't apply.

You can enjoy the scene (I fucking laughed during it, especially now knowing every time they show the Elf troops they have different numbers), but I am sick and tired of people trying to force feed me the bullshit that is lore accurate or appropriate, it isn't. Not to mention it just reinforces the stigma that Galadriel in this show is a bit of a bitch, and a shit commander (which is actually closer to being against lore than anything the show has given us as Galadriel was a competent ruler).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

wrong, the scene that sets the precedent comes long before they are even in the mines of moria, it comes when the fellowship is trying to take the pass of caradhras and get foiled by saruman, legolas shows his 'elven skill' by walking on the snow that has freshly fallen, which gandalf then mimics to get the same vantage point as him, that's the subtle and understated first instance of elves being different to men/dwarves/hobbits in the PJ film trilogy.

legolas Walks on some snow in a way humans can’t, so of course he can flip a troll and solo a giant fuck off elephant.

Galadriel Climbs a sheer ice cliff and and can push on through a snow storm other elf’s are falling in, no way she could also flip over a troll.

Like do you really think any one is buying this line of argument?