Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

So you can only bring down giant beasts if you're likable... Gotta add that to me writing 101.

You gotta establish a character if you want audiences yo not just roll their eyes at what the character does.

It'a why John Wick does so many things right that most other action flicks do wrong. Nothing to do how impossible the feats are.

[Biomega]

I am sick and tired of people trying to force feed me the bullshit that is lore accurate or appropriate, it isn't. Not to mention it just reinforces the stigma that Galadriel in this show is a bit of a bitch, and a shit commander (which is actually closer to being against lore than anything the show has given us as Galadriel was a competent ruler).

There isn't really much lore about Galadriel during this time period. That's sort of the point - the show is trying to fill that gap. We know Tolkien wanted to do more with her; he said as much. But he never got around to it in any substantial way.

We mostly know her very early days, and her very late days. Neither is a good template for the long, long times in between. But to say that just because her middle years aren't like her later years it's "not lore-accurate" is a mischaracterization. Galadriel in the show isn't the same as Galadriel in the movies, but how could she be? That's thousands of years later. If she WASN'T different that'd be strange indeed. Her character arch, such as we know of, is basically her going from rebel to mellow. She overcomes the curse of Fëanor and the temperament of the Noldor, finally rejecting power and returning to Valinor. It would make sense that there's some wild stuff in the middle somewhere - the very flaws she eventually overcomes in LotR when she refuses the Ring.

Does that mean they did everything right with her so far? Hell no. There's plenty of criticism to leverage. But arguing from lore is weird when the whole point here is that there isn't really any, and this is meant to fill the gap.

People BECOME competent rulers. They don't just have that from day 1, and everything they ever do early on is the same as it is later in their lives.

[bledgor]

There isn't really much lore about Galadriel during this time period. That's sort of the point - the show is trying to fill that gap. We know Tolkien wanted to do more with her; he said as much. But he never got around to it in any substantial way.

We mostly know her very early days, and her very late days. Neither is a good template for the long, long times in between. But to say that just because her middle years aren't like her later years it's "not lore-accurate" is a mischaracterization. Galadriel in the show isn't the same as Galadriel in the movies, but how could she be? That's thousands of years later. If she WASN'T different that'd be strange indeed. Her character arch, such as we know of, is basically her going from rebel to mellow. She overcomes the curse of Fëanor and the temperament of the Noldor, finally rejecting power and returning to Valinor. It would make sense that there's some wild stuff in the middle somewhere - the very flaws she eventually overcomes in LotR when she refuses the Ring.

Does that mean they did everything right with her so far? Hell no. There's plenty of criticism to leverage. But arguing from lore is weird when the whole point here is that there isn't really any, and this is meant to fill the gap.

People BECOME competent rulers. They don't just have that from day 1, and everything they ever do early on is the same as it is later in their lives.

Not everyone is incompetent at first, or a complete and utter bitch, go figure it is quite common for people to stay a similar disposition their entire lives. At this point she is still one of the eldest Elves, so yes she should be more wise, she would be much later in a character arc if you want one from her character than just about everyone else. This piss and vinegar Galadriel has fuck all basis in Tolkien, and was created so the writers could justify their piss poor attempt at adding conflict instead of being nuanced.

Seriously it is piss easy to show her still have a hidden anger, but being a good fair leader that cares about her troops to foreshadow who she will be but still imply a bit of anger and potential for mindless violence beneath it:

Have her race to the top of the ice wall, then lower a rope. It shows she will put herself in danger to spare her troops some anguish, which while nice is her being overconfident/headstrong as she would have been a lone at the top and had no clue if something is waiting. When the man falls, show her intuition by her going back to help as soon as he falls, but tell them they are close, she can feel it, to push on a bit more. Instead of the finding the ice hole and punching through a solid sheet of ice have the Ice troll come out of it, then have her direct the troops into a formation and to perform a certain routine to take it down. If you still want her to shine during the fight, during the fight have an elf serving as bait slip on the ice, and Galadriel leap in to save them while making a counter stroke. Finally when the Ice troll is cut down to its finale breathe, have her be a bit savage in finishing it, let her slit its throat and have it gagging for air to show her anger and potential for brutality. Finally instead of trying to force her troops on when they find signs of Sauron, have the troops ask her if they continue north, and after a few moments of silence as she looks about (noticing a few wounded from the ice troll and exhausted) have her relent her chase and inform them they have found the truth, now they must go back to war the others and gather the troops. You hit all the notes you need, lay down potential paths of conflict while still showcasing more of the Galadriel that exists in Tolkien.

Galadriel never needed this big arc, no one was asking for it, and they did it in a terrible way that has little basis in the books. Her rebelling wasn't to ride forth slaying orcs and putting her own troops in trouble, there is a reason she didn't take part directly in the kin slaying. No instead her rebelling was going to middle earth to atone, to carve out a land to lead, that was her aspirations. This orc slaying is laughable (as well as changing the way her now only 1 instead of 3 brothers died) as is removing her husband whom she was married to, her having her daughter EARLY in the 2nd age, a daughter that has some significance as she would wed Elrond and give birth to Arwen, wife of Aragon.

If it isn't there, by default it goes against lore. Amazon CHOOSE to do this, they don't get a free pass to then write things that don't exist changing a character people know and because the details aren't exact its now fine. Stop defending a billion dollar company that is producing a sub-par product.

NOT EVERYONE IS A CRAPPY LEADER TO START, not everyone treats their troops like utter crap while acting like a bitch. You can have a much further starting point, you can still make smaller mistakes that lead to consequences (again have her direct the troops and still have wounds/casualties, that to me is a much more impactful scene than let me superman it after it rolls over you guys. You can even show her telling them to finish it to soon, and getting a guy into danger that she rescues, before stepping in to slowly kill the Ice troll with a throat slitting, it implies a darker side, shows failure and a sense of rushing, while maintaining being a caring commander that is while competent a bit too green.

[s_bushido]

P Not to mention it just reinforces the stigma that Galadriel in this show is a bit of a bitch, and a shit commander (which is actually closer to being against lore than anything the show has given us as Galadriel was a competent ruler).

What "stigma" is that? Why would someone expect a character (even one who is immortal) to be exactly the same in different depictions thousands of years apart? This is like dipshits mocking the "without my sword, what am I?" line (or whatever she actually said) without the slightest semblance of comprehension that that's probably EXACTLY what her story in the show is going to be about... Her figuring out if being a sword against the evil of Sauron is the only thing she ever wants to be.

[bledgor]

What "stigma" is that? Why would someone expect a character (even one who is immortal) to be exactly the same in different depictions thousands of years apart? This is like dipshits mocking the "without my sword, what am I?" line (or whatever she actually said) without the slightest semblance of comprehension that that's probably EXACTLY what her story in the show is going to be about... Her figuring out if being a sword against the evil of Sauron is the only thing she ever wants to be.

Galadriel was never shown, depicted or suggested to be a bitch in Tolkien lore, I mean I know people like you don't actually care enough about the books to read them. I am not saying Galadriel has to be hair for hair the same, but you don't have her start at A, she might be thousands of years younger but she is still thousands of years old. This isn't a teenage equivalent Elf, she would be fairly along the way in becoming who she is in the trilogy, but would be more inexperienced and green, unsure and hasty, not brash, bitchy, and divisive.

Like I said in my post before, have her make mistakes directing her troops, not ignoring them, watching them get destroyed, then step in to single handily save the day, while still being so bad they would abandon her. Her goal in coming to middle earth was to see an end to the evil in part yes, but she really wanted was a land to call her own, a place to be a leader of, to govern over. There is no marks, traces, or traits of that in these scenes that you can easily add in with minor changes.

You want a big arc/coming into his rightful place, Elrond is beyond perfect, he would be young, he would need to build who he is, you can even have it be in part because he is trying to court Celebrian/prove himself to his mother in law (Galadriel). Add in the conflict of him being half-elven, and fuck you can replace Galadriel with him and it would have been a lot better. Also can have it be part of the reason the troops don't respect/listen to him and why he ignores/doesn't care about them, because of his human heritage. This gives you the young, brash, aggressive, bit of an arse character who it is appropriate for and is closer to lore, as he would become the hand of Gil-Galad in this age before leading the troops with him to take on Sauron during the last alliance.

Stop defending sub-par products from Amazon.

[Muxtar]

I don't know whether it has been discussed here yet, but if you go to IMDB (owner of which is also Amazon, what a coincidence), you'll see that all users reviews that are below rating 6 out of 10, are just disappeared, and there were plenty of those in the first day of release (September 2nd). And my review that I wrote on the same September 2nd, is still 'pending', for 4 days now, as I am sure hundreds of others similar reviews, in order to not let the people know about negative responses.

And they try their best to raise the show's rating with some fake reviews and stuff - rating was 6/10 and now it 6.8/10. Same goes for Rotten Tomatoes - rating there was raised in just last few days from 34% to 39%.

These silly attempts to censor the true people response to this 'greatest and the most expensive series ever' are just as laughable as they are futile. Truth can't be locked away.

[Biomega]

Not everyone is incompetent at first, or a complete and utter bitch, go figure it is quite common for people to stay a similar disposition their entire lives.

Even if that was common (and it probably isn't, unless you have painted in very broad strokes), there's also plenty of people who change substantially throughout their lives. Just because something is common doesn't mean it's always the case, or that other ways couldn't happen. Plus, her life is much longer than human lives - just because someone doesn't change over 80 years or so doesn't mean they'd never change over 8,000 years.

But that doesn't even matter, because you're wrong from the start: we KNOW that she DID change. That's her story. She went into exile, she was a rebel, and at the end of her time in the lore, she finally managed to do what her greatest kinsman could not: say no to power. It took her thousands of years, but she changed. That's THE LORE for that character, emphasized even more strongly by a repetition of a famous event from her earlier days where she was effectively faced with the same request (locks of her hair) but where she previously quite vehemently refused she now kindly obliges. That's precisely there to show how she CHANGED.

You're on board with her change as a character from early to late portrayal, yet somehow you object to the middle because she would have to have a "similar disposition"? She doesn't. She was exiled by her gods for her disposition for thousands of years, UNTIL SHE CHANGED IT. That directly refutes your entire point, as per established lore; let alone what they may come up with here.

This piss and vinegar Galadriel has fuck all basis in Tolkien, and was created so the writers could justify their piss poor attempt at adding conflict instead of being nuanced.

I agree that the portrayal isn't great, and the actress in particular has apparently not understood the character (or was not made to understand it by directors/producers, which they should have taken care to). But that's the implementation of a character that, at least in principle, is sound. The details aren't good. But the direction is.

So far, anyway. Could well be that she spirals into absurdity completely two more episodes in. We don't know yet.

It shows she will put herself in danger to spare her troops some anguish

But that's not the Noldor way. That's the whole point behind the First Kinslaying etc. The Noldor, especially those around Fëanor, were selfish, arrogant bastards. They killed people, stole ships, burned stuff to the ground. They were stubborn and self-destructive. THAT is the kin Galadriel comes from, and she is every bit the equal of Fëanor if not superior in the end. She CHOSE to go against the command of her gods. She rebelled with the rest of the Noldor.

Just because she turned out to become a wise ruler at the end of the Third Age thousands of years later doesn't mean she's always been a nice person. In fact from what little we know of her, she was not - she made that clear to Fëanor in no uncertain terms when he asked her for her hair.

Don't look at LotR Galadriel and think that's what she always was. There's a reason she was banished from paradise for a good few thousand years, and that when Frodo looks upon her in a moment of temptation, he sees PURE TERROR.

Galadriel never needed this big arc, no one was asking for it

Tolkien disagrees. He wanted to make her a prominent character, and put her at the center of future narratives. He was very much interested in giving her big arcs, he just never got to it before he died. He talks about it in his letters. He saw her as having immense storytelling potential.

Does that mean this realization of such a story is doing everything perfectly? Hardly. But to say "no one was asking for it" when the author himself went "yeah I want to do more with her" is questionable at best.

Her rebelling wasn't to ride forth slaying orcs and putting her own troops in trouble, there is a reason she didn't take part directly in the kin slaying. No instead her rebelling was going to middle earth to atone, to carve out a land to lead, that was her aspirations. This orc slaying is laughable (as well as changing the way her now only 1 instead of 3 brothers died) as is removing her husband whom she was married to, her having her daughter EARLY in the 2nd age, a daughter that has some significance as she would wed Elrond and give birth to Arwen, wife of Aragon.

I agree there's a lot of changes, likely for several reasons - one being that they're not allowed to do the Silmarillion (which let's be honest they just should have done instead of this, but oh well), the other being that you need to put THIS story first and that may require adjustments so you don't end up with things already being the case that you would like to instead develop over time. I expect a lot more such shuffling of the timeline to accommodate a proper narrative flow for this story, because otherwise the established timeline would simply get in the way.

That's also why I think the Stranger is Gandalf, despite it not being according to the books' timeline. They just wanted things to flow better for the sake of a better narrative in the show. Which I am at least in principle all for - adaptations need to work within their own confines.

If it isn't there, by default it goes against lore.

That's not true. If the lore isn't defined, something can't go for or against it. Much like you can't break a law that doesn't exist. "The lore doesn't say anything" isn't the same thing as "the lore says something else".

Lore changes, too. Tolkien himself changed many details, characters, and circumstances as his writing evolved. You look at some of the very early stuff, for example, you notice incongruities and clashes within the lore. That's entirely normal. I doubt he was much bothered by it, given that the poetic myths he was referencing are full of such irregularities and always have been.

Amazon CHOOSE to do this, they don't get a free pass to then write things that don't exist

I mean, they paid a lot of money for the right to do this. That's what adaptations do. Always. No adaptation will observe the original 100%. The only question is: is the product that comes out at the end of good quality? So far, I'm not convinced this one is. Not for reasons of not being true to the original, but for many, many other reasons.

Stop defending a billion dollar company that is producing a sub-par product.

I'm not, and never have been. You're confusing me clarifying why something makes sense in the show with me saying the show is good. Those are two very different things.

I have said from my very first post after watching Episode 1 that I'm not happy with what I'm seeing. That doesn't mean I think nothing makes sense or that everything is messed up and illogical. That's not how it works.

NOT EVERYONE IS A CRAPPY LEADER TO START, not everyone treats their troops like utter crap while acting like a bitch.

No.

And why does "not everyone is a good leader at the start" become "oh you're saying everyone is a CRAPPY leader at the start"? That makes no sense. Like, on an elementary, logical level.

Not everyone is +X != Everyone is -X

[Desperado82]

I haven't watched it yet because the trailers didn't sell me on it. it doesn't seem like it's Tolkien's story, it's just a random YA fantasy set in Tolkien's world.

And when I saw even Grace Randolph, who I generally don't put a lot of weight on her reviews, call Galadriel both a Mary Sue and a Karen wrapped into one package, that cemented my choice.

I'm not interested in Twitter's version of Tolkien's work. They would be busy calling him a fascist if he were alive today, rather than trying to profit off of his work.

[Biomega]

They would be busy calling him a fascist if he were alive today, rather than trying to profit off of his work.

It's funny, I've been hearing this (or versions of it) a lot, and it's kind of weird that people are missing the real point.

If Tolkien wrote this way today, he probably would be called a bigot at least; and probably rightly so.

BUUUUUT

If Tolkien was a contemporary author, he also, you know, WOULDN'T WRITE NOW LIKE HE DID THEN.

You can't just transplant history without observing context. Aristotle didn't speak out against slavery, and thought of it as a normal way of life. Does that mean he'd still be a happy slave owner in the present day? NO. His entire thinking would be radically different if he had been born in the 20th century instead of the -4th century, and to pretend otherwise is poisoning the well for that particular argument from the start.

You can't look at a book written 70 years ago and evaluate it by today's standards. That's ridiculous at the best of times, and downright ludicrous when it's fiction.

[Veggie50]

I haven't watched it yet because the trailers didn't sell me on it. it doesn't seem like it's Tolkien's story, it's just a random YA fantasy set in Tolkien's world.

And when I saw even Grace Randolph, who I generally don't put a lot of weight on her reviews, call Galadriel both a Mary Sue and a Karen wrapped into one package, that cemented my choice.

I'm not interested in Twitter's version of Tolkien's work. They would be busy calling him a fascist if he were alive today, rather than trying to profit off of his work.

"I didn't watch it but I don't like it" is a very common take here

[fakaroonie]

I'm not familiar with the second age lore, but can that be Radagast?

[Veggie50]

I'm not familiar with the second age lore, but can that be Radagast?

Well appearing as a meteor seems like a weird way to bring him to middle earth, but it's possible... As istari they were sent in the 3rd age, but the wizards may have visited before that.

[Biomega]

I'm not familiar with the second age lore, but can that be Radagast?

Third Age in the canon chronology, but they could change all manner of things.

If they do go with a known wizard, though, I cannot imagine them not going with Gandalf. That would just seem so unlikely, for marketing and recognition value.

Plus there's the association with fire (Gandalf wields the "secret fire" and later the Ring of Fire) and the scene with the fireflies, which is an almost 1:1 mirroring of his scene with the moth on top of Saruman's tower in the LotR movies. None of that fits Radagast or the Blue Wizards, but does fit Gandalf.

[Syegfryed]

Do we know she wasn't a bitch?

...yes, we do know that, the writers would know as well fi they had read the source material

She basically told Frodo that if she took the ring, she'd become another Sauron.

Thats Because is what the one ring do, they corrupt the user, regardless, even Gandalf would be corrupted by it, not because she was a bitch, but because its the ring function.

Galadriel being more complex than "a pretty lady who fights evil and doesn't afraid" isn't exactly unprecedented.

You call being a bitch and an absurd moronic... complex?

But notably, she did turn back to help the elf who had fallen when she saw why they asked her to stop. I don't really see the point in lying about the scene. But maybe that's just me.

Whats your point of making something up like this? i didn't lie, she did want to leave the elf there, that was my point, she would never be needed to be called by her name to do that. She is, simple, not Galadriel, at all

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That's my point. Of course she was. But she didn't care. That's the purpose of that scene: to show that she is not going to stop, not ever. Come what may. You get in her way, you get cut down.

I think the point was to show how the elves were exhausted and thats why they got their as handled by the troll?

That's also very much intentional. It's no coincidence Galadriel is often mentioned in comparison to Fëanor. She is his counterpart, all the pride and selfishness that made the Noldor so susceptible to Fëanor's curse, though unlike him she manages to overcome it in the end. She was not a nice person at many times in her life. The Galadriel from LotR is THOUSANDS of years later. It's not how she started. And it's not what she is at the time of this show.

she still does have, give or take, 5 to 8 thousands of years, that is a lot of time to build character

In LotR, which is thousands of years later. It was not the case at this point in time. Galadriel is much older than Elrond. He wasn't born in Valinor, he had never even been there. Elrond did not start out as the ring-bearing lord he is in LotR.

Right, i know that, that still does not make sense to portray him as a limp nobody, who just get called "orc" by Galadriel, that is kindergarten stuff

We don't really have books to go by for this. There isn't enough material on Galadriel that covers her actions during this time; in fact she's mostly absent from events as described. However, we know Tolkien planned to change her into more of a warrior type. He talks about his plans in his letters, wishing to expand her into an amazon-like character featured in more stories. He just never got to write them before he died. The show is taking liberties with the character based on that, since there isn't really much actual source material, just snippets here and there.

Pretty sure Tolkien would be able to write her to not be a bitch warrior, thats for sure, the liberties they took just don't work

I think it need to be said to not be misinterpreted later, i have no problem in Galadriel being "warrior elf" - although i would much prefer that she would be more into an arcane or magic fighter rather than a physical one - but the way they are doing is way too fucking bad, the writing.

I'm not too happy with the first 2 either, but to be fair, I also didn't think Sandman was that great until after the 24h diner episode. It really picks up in the second half. I'll give this a bit more time; but not too much more. At least it's not WoT.

Sandman first two episodes were intriguing enough to keep you about wanting to see how the fuck things unfold, and the dialogue was not bad, this is enough to keep someone watching.

This one it gave me no mental strength to watch the second yet.

Like, there is so many dumbfolding stuff in the first episode alone that i didn't digest yet. Of how nonsensical the writing is, it comes to a point that it contradicts itself in the same scene, i Think the very first dialogue starts with two lines that simple don't make sense with each other, is like they took two openings, could not decide what to use, then used both.

I will actually watch a second time just to nitpick about the dialogues alone and later post here, cause some of them are hilarious

It is a bit silly. I'd have just made it so she sees a Númenoran ship in the distance, and that gives her the idea to jump. She swims towards them, gets picked up, and gets shipped straight to Númenor. That whole castaway bullshit with the sea serpent was completely unnecessary and boring.

Pretty much like the Sauron mark, a Lot of the things that happened are unnecessary or nonsensical

And don't let me talk about TOTALLY-NOT-SAURON yet, that Galadriel will prob have some conflict feelings (isn't she supposed to be married already?)

[Biomega]

I think the point was to show how the elves were exhausted and thats why they got their as handled by the troll?

And do you somehow think those two are mutually exclusive, or something?

she still does have, give or take, 5 to 8 thousands of years, that is a lot of time to build character

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Right, i know that, that still does not make sense to portray him as a limp nobody, who just get called "orc" by Galadriel, that is kindergarten stuff

If you see Elrond portrayed as a "limp nobody" then we've watched a very different show. He's not who he is in LotR but how is he a "nobody"? He frequently advises Gild-galad directly. He gets hand-picked to accompany Celebrimbor, the greatest craftsman of the age. He is a personal friend of the crown prince of Khazad-dûm, and goes into a contest of endurance with him. How is that being limp OR a nobody? Just because he's not in full armor, beheading orcs every scene? What?

Pretty sure Tolkien would be able to write her to not be a bitch warrior, thats for sure, the liberties they took just don't work

How much of that is the actual narrative, though, and how much of it is details stemming from the particular interpretation of the character by the actress? I agree the dialogue is a bit eh and the acting is pretty bad, but in general? The overall narrative role? What's the problem with it, exactly?

I think it need to be said to not be misinterpreted later, i have no problem in Galadriel being "warrior elf" - although i would much prefer that she would be more into an arcane or magic fighter rather than a physical one

I don't think that exists in Tolkien's work, really. Even Gandalf barely fights with magic, using a sword most of the time. And he's a literal wizard. Seems like an unreasonable expectation, given the framework.

Pretty much like the Sauron mark, a Lot of the things that happened are unnecessary or nonsensical

I agree that's a bit of a weird one that I'm not sure is going anywhere good. Can't tell yet, but it's a concern.

Don't get me wrong - I think the show isn't great so far. But the things I've pointed out are not about how good the show is; only whether or not what they're doing is plausible and slots into what we know. And for the most part it does, though there's also parts where it really doesn't.

(isn't she supposed to be married already?)

Having a daughter already, by the original chronology. But they've clearly changed things. I'm not too fussed about it. It makes more sense for an adaptation to show this gradually, rather than just going "oh yeah by the way I have a husband and daughter somewhere, gg" which wouldn't be good storytelling for the show.

[Aydinx2]

YOU are the one claiming Tolkien's dragons have 2 pairs of legs and separate wings. You provided one drawing to back that claim, but in that drawing, the front legs and wings are A SINGLE UNIT, not separate.

Are you blind? The wings are attached behind the shoulderblades, like they are for almost any creature that has wings.

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...yes, we do know that, the writers would know as well fi they had read the source material

Which they shouldn't, since they're not legally allowed to use any material outside of the 3 LotR books.

[Syegfryed]

And do you somehow think those two are mutually exclusive, or something?

Basically, you are telling me, that everyone is exhausted, because the journey, but Galadriel will not stop, by no reason, even with exhaustion, cause she is better than everyone.

That is exactly the problem of the show.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

That she is old enough to not be an insufferable bitch and the others are old enough to not be dumbasess

If you see Elrond portrayed as a "limp nobody" then we've watched a very different show. He's not who he is in LotR but how is he a "nobody"? He frequently advises Gild-galad directly. He gets hand-picked to accompany Celebrimbor, the greatest craftsman of the age. He is a personal friend of the crown prince of Khazad-dûm, and goes into a contest of endurance with him. How is that being limp OR a nobody? Just because he's not in full armor, beheading orcs every scene? What?

If he frequently advice Gil'galand, get handpicked to accompany Celebrimbor why they make look like he is a nobody "well Galadriel i can't go there because im a nobody"

The actor is AWFUL in the character, no offense to him, but him does not sell, his interaction with Galadriel just bitching with him is absurd.

How much of that is the actual narrative, though, and how much of it is details stemming from the particular interpretation of the character by the actress? I agree the dialogue is a bit eh and the acting is pretty bad, but in general? The overall narrative role? What's the problem with it, exactly?

Seeing how awful the writing is, lm not gonna bully or blame the actress, im confident seeing their bs so far that she is just doing what she is told

If the dialogue, acting and the writing is bad(i crush the seeds ~~gently~~), what is left in the show? the cgi and music? how this can carry 6 whole seasons.


Its like saying: "if you take everything that is bad - everything that matters in a show - you know what, its quite all right!

I don't think that exists in Tolkien's work, really. Even Gandalf barely fights with magic, using a sword most of the time. And he's a literal wizard. Seems like an unreasonable expectation, given the framework.

Well, aren't they fucking with the story? how this would be worse than what they already did? Besides, its first/second age, they would do more of that kind of stuff, didn't her brother and Sauron fight like with song, and it was magic and all? Galadriel could probably shout the troll dead

Don't get me wrong - I think the show isn't great so far. But the things I've pointed out are not about how good the show is; only whether or not what they're doing is plausible and slots into what we know. And for the most part it does, though there's also parts where it really doesn't.

I don't even mind some changes, but some of then you just raise your eyebrows and ask, why, why the hell that was even necessary,

It could be 100% plausible, like what they did by changing the reason of why they went after Morgoth, because they can't mention the silmarilions, but at the same time, they ignore Ungoliath and mention the silmarilions later, w-h-y?

Like, i, personally, for pure bias, don't care much about changes in those specific materials (if they actually make sense or it's for the good of the show, yada yada), because i don't like elves, im not a Silmarillion fan. What is boiling my blood is the writing/dialogue (the acting also, but that i can forgive), but everything sounds just so pseudo complex, trying desperate to be epic and crypt and poetic,

Having a daughter already, by the original chronology. But they've clearly changed things. I'm not too fussed about it. It makes more sense for an adaptation to show this gradually, rather than just going "oh yeah by the way I have a husband and daughter somewhere, gg" which wouldn't be good storytelling for the show.

Of course, it would not be good, who could think this Galadriel could have a husband and a child.

Plus, how they could make her have feelings about Totally-not-Sauron if she is married?

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Which they shouldn't, since they're not legally allowed to use any material outside of the 3 LotR books.

You could still read for reference in your writing though...

[Dhrizzle]

Which they shouldn't, since they're not legally allowed to use any material outside of the 3 LotR books.

Legally they can use whatever the Tolkien Estate says they can use on a case-by-case basis. A few years back Tom Shippey said he was confident they'd pretty much automatically be able to use materials directly related to the story.

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Basically, you are telling me, that everyone is exhausted, because the journey, but Galadriel will not stop, by no reason, even with exhaustion, cause she is better than everyone.

That is exactly the problem of the show.

Being better than everyone is pretty much how Galadriel is written. What we are seeing is her being unable to properly engage with the other Elves to bring them to her way of seeing things which is a flaw in her character we'll probably see being ironed out through the course of the series because that is how storytelling works.

That she is old enough to not be an insufferable bitch

Does anyone else find it tiresomely predictable how if a female character isn't perfectly nice and has flaws that representnl challenges get along with others a certain type of person will have to constantly point out what a massive bitch she is, using the word repeatedly in a single post?

[InfiniteCharger]

That's seriously flawed reasoning, though. "All elves should be strong and athletic" is NOT the same as "all elves should be EQUALLY strong and athletic", which would have to be the case here for Galadriel not to stand out. But that goes counter to the idea of heroes in narrative epics, which are a big part of Tolkien's inspiration and reference material, and a stated template for his mythology.

You're asking why a band of starved, exhausted, frostbitten elves aren't shown to be just as strong as a driven, grudge-fueled, heroic warrior counted among the best of her entire race in all of their history. The answer is... that's how heroic epics work.

Do you ever not create strawmen in order to defend yourself? I said the men in her squad should have been able to defend themselves without her against that troll, because they all should have been trained and skilled enough as members of this 'special' mission to find Sauron. That is on top of every Elf being strong and athletic to a degree. And again, you love to argue that other people's are bad or invalid as if only your opinion counts. And on top of that, go pages and pages on it. Lets just stop with this nonsense here. Those other men in that squad should have been able to do a better job against the troll. They should have been depicted as much more capable fighters, even if Galadriel is better. This isn't a Tolkien issue it is a writing issue for this series.

Also, like I said, we don't see anything about how elves train to fight, how athletic they are in general because it wasn't show in any flashbacks or anything else. Not to mention we never saw what kinds of weapons they typically use or what kinds of combat training they get. And on top of that, we never see the "army" that she is supposedly leader of. What kind of army is 10 people? If she is a leader of an army she doesn't have to go to the High King and ask for permission to use her troops to find Sauron. All of that is completely missing from this series as if they cannot afford enough extras or sets to show her having an army, troops, equipment, a fort, supplies or anything. Its all cut rate, 10 men that can't fight, style diluted hint of army devoid of actual substance.

Tolkien wrote his story decades before DnD and MMOs where racial abilities, skills, affinities, weapons, armor and combat ratings existed. So it makes sense that he wouldn't write his story in a way to reflect all the details of those things. However, if they are writing this show to be more 'up to date' then they obviously could have shown more of that in this series.

For goodness sakes they could have looked at the mocap and choreography of any number of modern Game Trailers to get a good idea of how to make an epic fight scene:


And the reason why I chose Elder scrolls specifically is because there is no dialog in any of these trailers, to reflect the unique traits of each class/racial in this party and how they contrast and support each other effectively in combat.

Why are you just ignoring the negatives? The followed her for centuries for those reasons; they decide to STOP following her for a DIFFERENT reason, namely that they think she's being irrational and obsessive because of her grudge and that puts them all (and herself) in danger. NOT because they suddenly stopped thinking she was a great warrior.

That is a contradiction is my point. It is not consistent with what is being shown or what actually happens. You don't decide to exile one of your best warriors because she is doing her job, especially when you have proof that she is right. That makes absolutely no sense. And like I said, this contradictory element of the story is so they can get her on a boat with Halbrand and then to Numenor.

You can't just remove the main problem from your argument and then go "I DON'T KNOW WHY THIS HAPPENS MAKES NO SENSE". It makes no sense to you because you chose to ignore the most important part.

Here we go again with you trying to argue other can't have opinions. Everything with you boils down to this. And really I don't have time for another 10 pages of back and forth with you about it.

The only thing YOU are telling us is that you think being a great leader is only about being a skilled warrior, and that deeply troubling character flaws somehow don't matter in how someone is regarded. Which means... you either don't understand this, or you're deliberately ignoring it to try and justify your negative reaction.

What I am saying is they haven't shown her character flaws as being part of this story. She went out to find Sauron and she found evidence that indeed he is active. Then her trooops abandoned her and they were all sent away for "exile". That wasn't about any character flaws. What character flaws? She saved her squad from the troll by killing it by herself, so where is the character flaw in that. You are trying to defend this writing and contradictory story line with some 'character flaw' that is not evident because the writing doesn't actually show it. If they went and looked for Sauron and didn't find anything that would be one thing, but they actually found what they were looking for. So there is nothing shown that reinforces her 'character flaws'. In fact after sending her to exile they find the black corruption on the leaves, again reinforcing she is right and a 'badass'. All of this silly nonsense because this series is not respecting her and empowering her like they claim to be. It is a complete contradiction.

You seem to have completely missed my explanation of how this "exile" works; and/or are not familiar with the lore. THEY ALREADY ARE IN EXILE. Middle Earth is their exile. The Noldor rebelled and LEFT Aman. They refused a command by their gods. Going back to the Undying Lands is ENDING their exile, it's the greatest reward they could hope for. Galadriel refuses - and deep down she knows she isn't worthy, too. That's why she remains in Middle Earth for countless more centuries, until she finally achieves the maturity to overcome her own character flaws and is worthy of returning at the end of LotR. That's, you know, the main character arc for Galadriel of the Noldor. That's the WHOLE POINT of her story (and, by extension, of the story of Fëanor, who could not overcome his flaws).

I get what you mean and this problem of 'exile' from 'exile' comes from the way the show is written. Whatever you want to call it, sending someone to Valinor is a one way trip for infinity. You can quibble about calling it exile if you want and that is fine. But the point is they sent her away ....... forever, not to return to Middle Earth. So effectively it is exile even if in the context of the elves, not being in valinor is the exile. And stop bringing up Feaonor. He isn't in this series at all and was never mentioned in the flashbacks. You are not even talking about what is actually in this series by introducing stuff from Tolkien to try and prop up the writing in this show.

That's not the Galadriel we see, because that's not the part of her life those passages talk about. They talk about early Galadriel - where she is a self-confident woman with attitude enough to metaphorically spit in the face of the greatest of her people three times; and rebel enough to defy an order by her own gods so she can sail off and wage war. And they talk about late Galadriel - where she has become a ruler and advisor in relative seclusion, and ultimately achieves enlightenment enough to return to Valinor. We see practically nothing of her from the in-between times, the height of the wars of the Noldor and Fëanor's curse. There is no book material about that Galadriel.

You're basically saying "she was X as a kid, and Y as a grandmother, SO HOW COME THE REST OF HER LIFE SHE ACTS SO DIFFERENTLY?". Yes. Why. I wonder.

I am talking about how there was no disrespect, getting into fights and being sent back to Valinor in the books. What is in this series is not a reflection of what is in the books at all. What this show is writing is a completely made up story and isn't 'filling in' anything. It is a complete contradiction of what is actually in the books. In the books, if she said there was a hint of Sauron, the elves would have taken action. Period. Because that is what Tolkien actually wrote about her and the elves at this point in the 2nd age.

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You understand that for the Elves the Undying Lands are literally heaven, right? They bask in the spiritual glow of the literal gods and know no hardship or suffering. Every Elf in Middle-earth feels a longing to go West, one that is enhanced in those who had already dwelt there. For everyone on that boat this "exile" is their deepest desire. In the canon Galadriel was offered pardon by the Valar and refused it as she felt there was still a dark stain left in the wake of Morgoth and it was her duty to contest it (with a hint of her still wishing to dominate lands of her own.) The boat ride allows the showrunners to portray the same decision being made without falling foul of the licensing agreement.

The scene with her brother was mostly an Easter egg with the (presumed) sons of Fëanor sinking her boat as an allusion to the First Kinslaying.

And she isn't being rejected for being female, she's being rejected for being a voice of war when everyone else wants peace. Canonically Galadriel knew there was a dark threat looming but for everyone else she seems driven by the loss of her brother.

It is written that way to show that she is right about Sauron, but the elves dont respect her and then get her onto a boat with Halbrand, a completely made up character, so both of them can wind up in Numenor, a place she never went to in the Lore. All so they can have this made up fight against the orcs with the Numenorians and Ta Miriel that never happened. That literally is what this show's story is telling us.

[Dhrizzle]

That is a contradiction is my point. It is not consistent with what is being shown or what actually happens. You don't decide to exile one of your best warriors because she is doing her job, especially when you have proof that she is right. That makes absolutely no sense. And like I said, this contradictory element of the story is so they can get her on a boat with Halbrand and then to Numenor.

Getting sent to Aman is not "exile." If you can't grasp something so fundamental to the setting then it is really hard taking you seriously.

What I am saying is they haven't shown her character flaws as being part of this story.

If her flaws weren't part of the story then she would have been able to persuade Gil-galad and Elrond how right and necessary her actions were. They would have been on-side with her plans instead of thinking she had to return home to find peace.

I get what you mean and this problem of 'exile' from 'exile' comes from the way the show is written. Whatever you want to call it, sending someone to Valinor is a one way trip for infinity.

And the show explicitly states that it is a fantastic reward through Elrond gushing about how wonderful he thinks it will be, Galadriel describing her longing to return and the rapturous looks on the other soldiers. Galadriel isn't escaping exile when she jumps ship, she is giving up her hearts desire through a sense of duty.

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It is written that way to show that she is right about Sauron, but the elves dont respect her and then get her onto a boat with Halbrand, a completely made up character, so both of them can wind up in Numenor, a place she never went to in the Lore. All so they can have this made up fight against the orcs with the Numenorians and Ta Miriel that never happened. That literally is what this show's story is telling us.

And that could have been shown in any number of ways, but they chose a way that deliberately mirrors one of the most significant choices Galadriel made in her life.

Also it isn't a lack of respect from the other Elves, more concern that she is on a self-destructive path that could drag others with her.