1. #4041
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    So, the elite group to find Sauron and escort Galadriel are just a bunch of fucking weakling dumbasess, and this makes sense how?
    Because Dwarves are better anyways? IDK man, Tolkien's elves have a long and storied history of being egocentric failures and potato heads.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  2. #4042
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    I know not elves are not the same, but see, those elves are from the second age, and presumably, they are an elite group to fucking find Sauron, a maiar, i expect then to be Legolas level, and one troll alone clean the flor with not three or four, but seven.

    While in the fellowship you only rly have 2 men, a dwarf, an elf and Gandalf versus not just a troll but a small army of orcs as well, it's not even comparable.



    So, the elite group to find Sauron and escort Galadriel are just a bunch of fucking weakling dumbasess, and this makes sense how?
    No one believes Sauron is around and the missions she has been going on have been to humor her, it could be possible the team are just a token force thrown together. I don't remember if they dropped a date, but Sauron re-emergence occurs something like 600 years after the defeat of Melkor.

    I believe you are greatly underestimating legolas, he's son of the King, he was exceptional among his elves. Big rule with Tolkien tends to be your ability is tied to your status. Legolas, son of king; Gimli, descended from Durin; Aragon, King etc...
    The only other troll we see fight in enclosed spaces is in LotR and it was fighting beings that are significantly stronger than the average elf.

  3. #4043
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    My point is that she could internalize what she is doing is wrong in any number of ways that doesn't involve her going back to the Elf cities and taking the boat to Valinor and jumping ship the last moment.
    What kind of an argument is that, though?

    You could rewrite pretty much ANY story you like in ways that do the same thing in a different way.

    So what? "It could have been done differently" isn't an argument. It's just an observation that's trivially true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    By all means, the first 20 minutes already establishes that what she's doing is wrong, since it is the root of her being a terrible leader who holds vengeance and justice over the wellbeing of her own people.
    But that's not the same thing. Showing she is wrong is not the same as showing she REALIZES she's wrong but DOES IT ANYWAY. As is showing that she's trying to do right but fails at the last moment because she just can't let go.

    That is very, very different. And it fundamentally changes the nature of a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, not once in the conversation does she admit to any fault.
    If you're ignoring anything that isn't just spelled out in actual dialogue, you'll miss a lot about stories. She DOESN'T leave her men behind and goes off on her quest; she goes back with them. She DOESN'T refuse Gil-galad's reward even though she visibly wavers; she accepts it and boards the boat to Valinor. Those are all concessions that the ones criticizing her actions HAVE A POINT. And it's only in the final moment, literally the last second before the gives everything up, that she cannot bring herself to actually do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If she was wrong, then the scene where Gil Galad talks about the evil returning with Elrond would be counter-intuitive. 'It is hard to see what is right' encapsulates Elrond questioning his own actions that urged Galadriel onto the boats. He's posing the question directly to the audience - "Was this the right decision?"
    And we still don't know if it was the right decision, because it's about more than just Sauron being back. That was part of Tolkien's point from the beginning, when in the Silmarillion the Noldor decide to go against their gods' command. The fact that this resulted in Morgoth's ultimate defeat doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, because that's not what it was about (and besides also led to other things, like the removal of Arda from the world). Just like Galadriel choosing to hold on to her desire for vengeance may ultimately lead to Sauron's defeat, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. That's what she finally realizes in LotR - that even if she took the One Ring to defeat Sauron and bring peace to Middle Earth, that wouldn't be the right thing to do, and it would lead to other, more serious problems. But unlike then, she is not yet capable of making a different choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Galadriel literally pinpoints the entire theme of this series with the 'Evil does not sleep, it waits' speech.
    That's a separate issue, though. The end doesn't justify the means. Even if Galadriel is right about Sauron (and we of course know she is) that doesn't mean she made the right decision. That's the trap: you think that just because your zeal is vindicated, it was also justified. But that's not how it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The look at the dagger that makes her jump ship... that's what this is all about. Her internal duty to rid the evil that lingers in the world. To hunt down Sauron.
    That's what she's telling herself. It doesn't mean that's the right choice. That's why she DOESN'T take the Ring in LotR, even though it WOULD mean ridding the world of Sauron. Because she can see further now than could in her past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's about her acting on a truth that no one else seemingly believes. It's all encapsulated with her declaration that 'I go to seek the enemy that escaped us in the north. Alone, if I must.' That is the underlying theme of her arc.
    Yes. And, ultimately, that proves not to solve anything. She WON'T defeat Sauron. That defeat happens, ultimately, after she REFUSES power in LotR. Because she says no and DOESN'T get involved; whereas here, she cannot yet make that choice. And in the course of events, OTHER things happen, too: an entire continent is sunk, millions of people are killed. The gods literally remove themselves from the rest of the world, cutting off their access to paradise. Those are not small consequences.

  4. #4044
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It isn't rocket appliances, it's straight up trash.

    You want to tell a story of someone rising up to be a good leader? Have them start off as being a hot-headed lone wolf, make mistakes that has them respect the value of leadership, have them follow under other strong leaders, and build up to becoming one themselves. John Snow style. It'd make way more sense than establishing her as a 'leader', showing her as a 'bad leader', then showing her lone-wolf it. It's counter-intuitive to establish her as a leader if we're on the journey to see her transition from hot-headed lone wolf to good leader.

    If they want to establish her as a highly skilled fighter, then so be it. If they want to push the revenge angle and hunt for Sauron, then by all means go for it. I don't see how establishing her as a leader of a company of Elves has any meaning to the first 20 minutes when the whole story would have worked just as fine if she were an exceptionally skilled fighter who was under the command of someone else, or literally lone-wolfing it with maybe one or two close allies.
    Consider also that we're only 2 episodes in. Let the show breathe a bit before you summon the 4 Horsemen.

    Or don't, I don't really care tbh. Seems silly to throw yourself this far into the weeds when you're only 2 episodes into what is (allegedly) intended to be an incredibly long story with shitloads of time for character development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    The only other troll we see fight in enclosed spaces is in LotR and it was fighting beings that are significantly stronger than the average elf.
    And the only thing we know about snow trolls is that they use stealth to attack (ie: Helm Hammerhand stalking prey unseen like a snow troll), which hints at them being smaller and less strong than the cave/mountain/stone variants. So in a straight fight they would presumably be less dangerous than the other trolls, and you'd need to be less powerful to kill one.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  5. #4045
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    What kind of an argument is that, though?

    You could rewrite pretty much ANY story you like in ways that do the same thing in a different way.

    So what? "It could have been done differently" isn't an argument. It's just an observation that's trivially true.
    I mean, there isn't any 'right' or 'wrong' here, but my point and my opinion is that what they presented here is counter-intuitive.

    But that's not the same thing. Showing she is wrong is not the same as showing she REALIZES she's wrong but DOES IT ANYWAY. As is showing that she's trying to do right but fails at the last moment because she just can't let go.
    I'd question whether she even realizes it being wrong.

    The only thing you're banking on for this argument is her actually getting on that ship. And that isn't exactly her admitting that she was wrong at all, that's merely her accepting her fate at Elrond's behest. That's all. If you interpret that as her realizing being wrong, sure, you can interpret it that way. But that's not what the narrative actually implies here, unless you can point me to something that I've missed.

    It seems pretty clear to me she gets on the ship for the briefest chance that she could somehow be at peace and Elrond's words could ring true that the Evil really is gone from Middle Earth or that he'd be able to take care of it. That's how I see her reasoning to go on the ship. There's nothing in the narrative actually showing her reflecting on any of her actions actually being wrong.

    I think this is where we disagree.

    If you're ignoring anything that isn't just spelled out in actual dialogue, you'll miss a lot about stories. She DOESN'T leave her men behind and goes off on her quest; she goes back with them. She DOESN'T refuse Gil-galad's reward even though she visibly wavers; she accepts it and boards the boat to Valinor. Those are all concessions that the ones criticizing her actions HAVE A POINT. And it's only in the final moment, literally the last second before the gives everything up, that she cannot bring herself to actually do it.
    ... As I said, her not refusing Gil-galad was not internalized. Even after accepting his gift, she declared to Elrond that she was going to the North alone and was dead set on doing so. She only reconsiders and boards the ships at the behest of Elrond's council. She boards the boats not because she's realized any wrongs should be righted by going there, it's because Elrond declared in confidence that he would take up her responsibilities in safeguarding Middle Earth.

    Again, perhaps we may simply disagree here. I don't see the points you're making, because her actions are not internalized as redemption for her actions, but as a result of having a heart-to-heart with Elrond and taking his words into consideration for her own well-being. Otherwise, she has never wavered in her convictions, and does not actually admit her actions having been ever been wrong. Her declaration to Elrond that she was gonna continue to hunt Sauron after she already accepted Gil-Galad's gift was clearly indicative of her not actually accepting responsibility. He literally had to talk her back into sticking with 'the plan'.

    And we still don't know if it was the right decision, because it's about more than just Sauron being back. That was part of Tolkien's point from the beginning, when in the Silmarillion the Noldor decide to go against their gods' command. The fact that this resulted in Morgoth's ultimate defeat doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, because that's not what it was about (and besides also led to other things, like the removal of Arda from the world). Just like Galadriel choosing to hold on to her desire for vengeance may ultimately lead to Sauron's defeat, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. That's what she finally realizes in LotR - that even if she took the One Ring to defeat Sauron and bring peace to Middle Earth, that wouldn't be the right thing to do, and it would lead to other, more serious problems. But unlike then, she is not yet capable of making a different choice.
    I think we're on the same page here.

    That's a separate issue, though. The end doesn't justify the means. Even if Galadriel is right about Sauron (and we of course know she is) that doesn't mean she made the right decision. That's the trap: you think that just because your zeal is vindicated, it was also justified. But that's not how it works.
    Sadly, here it does. Because the writers are writing this narrative backwards. They have the ends, and they need to retrofit the means to justify the ends. That's literally what I've been pointing out. The overall narrative is very loosely fit, and unravels easily when you point out how certain sequences aren't playing out as the narrative intends them to.

    Galadriel's journey would be in finding herself. She needs to see how far her path of vengeance will take her, and she needs to see the darkness before she has the wisdom to see the light. That is the core theme that this show aims to tell.

    My point is that the current sequence of events we were given in the first episode were very shoddily put together, considering nothing that happened actually progressed the plot in any significant way other than to take her out of the North and put her in the middle of the sea. Literally the rest of the characterization could have been kept the same had she abandoned her troops and continued her search for Sauron, and I make a point of this because it would literally be the same journey touching on the same themes as I explained above.

    Seemingly, the only reason why she is even getting on the boats is because the writers seem to want her in Numenor at some point, and having her stranded in the middle of the sea seems like the direction they've chosen to make it happen. I've always criticized the entire situation being superfluous, and now realizing that she will be in Numenor in future episodes, it's vindicated my suspicions on why her having her first episode conclude leaving her party and being in the sea felt so out of place.

    IMO, it literally could have happened with her doing this very thing in the North. I see the only reason we went through this big circle is to give her someone to bounce exposition off of (Elrond), and to find a way to place her closer to Numenor.

    That's what she's telling herself. It doesn't mean that's the right choice. That's why she DOESN'T take the Ring in LotR, even though it WOULD mean ridding the world of Sauron. Because she can see further now than could in her past.
    It doesn't mean it's the wrong choice, it doesn't mean it's the right choice. It's simply her choice.

    And my point is that it's the same choice that she could have made right after the Troll fight. The decision for her to look at the dagger in the boat has not been affected WHATSOEVER with any of the time she's spent back in the Elf city. Her entire dialogue with Elrond was merely exposition for what we already know her to be - driven by her impulses and single-mindedly irrational in hunting evil at whatever the cost.

    And as I've explained, the entire getting-on-the-boat decision was all force-fed to us by the writers by having Elrond convince her to do so. Her decision to go solo is because she reflects on the words of her brother.. And if we take that into consideration, the whole stone metaphor could literally be applied to the very moment after the Troll fight and having her decide to push on regardless of her troops or the orders of the king. It would work because the metaphor is literally being applied to her company and her allies, who do not recognize the light from the reflection in the darkness. It would be the exact same turning point as on the ship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Consider also that we're only 2 episodes in. Let the show breathe a bit before you summon the 4 Horsemen.

    Or don't, I don't really care tbh. Seems silly to throw yourself this far into the weeds when you're only 2 episodes into what is (allegedly) intended to be an incredibly long story with shitloads of time for character development.
    lol, wtf dude.

    My entire criticism is based on what we've seen so far, not a criticism of the entire season. Not sure why this gets your panties in a knot.

    You're the one who jumped in to respond to me, I didn't force you to read any of my comments. If you can't deal with me expressing my criticisms, feel free to fuck off.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 01:46 AM.

  6. #4046
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah and usually in those RPGs, this is shown by giving the support characters some time to shine and actually, you know, support the Carry.

    Can you point me out where this actually happened in the show? Springboard dude is literally the only thing notable, and I hardly even consider that support considering Galadriel could have taken the thing down even without the help.

    There's no reason to assume the idea that the fight would have been harder without their assistance, because they never establish this in the narrative. You're comparing this to an RPG which has moments that let you experiment with the game and find out how important (or not important) the supporting characters would be. Here, we're literally given a short version that cuts out all their support, and merely shows them all when being attacked, and constantly urging the leader to return home.
    Even without them providing combat support (though the springboard was) you can see in the episode that some carry torches some have bows while Galadriel doesn't, So Even if there not combat supports they visually read as having a break up in duty's which could lead to her not being able to go on by her self.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #4047
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The only thing you're banking on for this argument is her actually getting on that ship. And that isn't exactly her admitting that she was wrong at all, that's merely her accepting her fate at Elrond's behest. That's all.
    If someone goes "you're wrong doing A, you should do B instead" and you go "okay, I guess I will do B"... how is that not admitting that you were wrong? Or at the very least that you might have been wrong, and that they have a point when they say you should do B instead of A.

    That's exactly what happens here. The fact that she then changes her mind and STILL does A doesn't invalidate that. In fact it further reinforces the importance of A to you, because you're choosing to do it EVEN THOUGH you agreed with others that you should be doing B instead. That realization is what it's all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There's nothing in the narrative actually showing her reflecting on any of her actions actually being wrong.
    That depends on what you mean by "being wrong". She's not wrong about Sauron being a threat. But she is absolutely wrong about risking her own life and that of others in the name of personal vengeance. That hasn't changed. That's also precisely what caused the departure of the Noldor from Valinor in the first place.

    That's the point here: that whether or not Sauron is still a threat doesn't matter, what she did was wrong either way. The ends do not justify the means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    ... As I said, her not refusing Gil-galad was not internalized.
    You keep using the word "internalized" and I don't know what you're trying to say with it. That she changed her mind? That she didn't REALLY accept it? Yes... that's kind of the point. But it also matters that she DID accept it AT FIRST. Just because she changed her mind back later doesn't mean the time where she agreed isn't important. Because that's a concession on her part to the validity of the criticism against her. It shows us that even she thinks Gil-galad had a point. The fact that she then does her own thing anyway doesn't invalidate that, in fact it makes it even more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Even after accepting his gift, she declared to Elrond that she was going to the North alone and was dead set on doing so. She only reconsiders and boards the ships at the behest of Elrond's council. She boards the boats not because she's realized any wrongs should be righted by going there, it's because Elrond declared in confidence that he would take up her responsibilities in safeguarding Middle Earth.
    The same thing applies here. She agrees that this is a good idea. She goes and does it. Then she remembers her vengeance when she sees the dagger, and decided at the last second you know what I'm actually STILL going to do it.

    That's an important moment that only works BECAUSE she initially agreed with Elrond and Gil-galad.

    It makes the story take a very different turn than it would have if she'd just gone "fuck it, I know best, I'm doing this alone" from the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Sadly, here it does. Because the writers are writing this narrative backwards. They have the ends, and they need to retrofit the means to justify the ends. That's literally what I've been pointing out. The overall narrative is very loosely fit, and unravels easily when you point out how certain sequences aren't playing out as the narrative intends them to.
    But the point is that the ends don't justify the means; not that the means justify the ends, which sounds a little weird to begin with.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say. We know Galadriel is NOT the one who defeats Sauron in the original canon. Whether or not this show changes things we cannot say - if it does end up like that and she's the one standing with Elendil at Mount Doom or whatever, we need to reevaluate things. But for now, we KNOW that Galadriels ends will NOT be realized. She is NOT going to get her vengeance, because she is not going to be the one to defeat Sauron; not temporarily at the hands of the Last Alliance and not ultimately at the hands (or rather: the finger) of Frodo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Galadriel's journey would be in finding herself. She needs to see how far her path of vengeance will take her, and she needs to see the darkness before she has the wisdom to see the light. That is the core theme that this show aims to tell.
    Yes, but that will not be realized in this show, if it follows the canon in any appreciable way. She doesn't achieve this until LotR, which is thousands of years later. We will see the preconditions for that, and likely the beginning of her eventual redemption. But we will not see the redemption itself, given the expected scope of this show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    My point is that the current sequence of events we were given in the first episode were very shoddily put together, considering nothing that happened actually progressed the plot in any significant way other than to take her out of the North and put her in the middle of the sea.
    I disagree. It establishes crucial definitions of her character and motivation. 1. that she's driven by vengeance; 2. that this is a flaw; 3. that she knows this is a flaw, but is unable to give it up anyway. They do this quite systematically, with a very standard array of narrative techniques. Whatever you can criticize the show for (and there are many things), that at least they did very meticulously and very thoroughly.

    It's really more Ep2 where she falls apart on a narrative level (she falls apart on the execution level way before that, because the acting and dialogue are... not good) as the whole thing about her on the ocean is just really bad in every way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Literally the rest of the characterization could have been kept the same had she abandoned her troops and continued her search for Sauron, and I make a point of this because it would literally be the same journey touching on the same themes as I explained above.
    It most definitely would NOT have worked the same way, because that lacks her realization of her own flaws. This is important to be established in the narrative. You can't just skip steps and say it's the same journey because it ends up at the same destination. That's not how storytelling works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Seemingly, the only reason why she is even getting on the boats is because the writers seem to want her in Numenor at some point, and having her stranded in the middle of the sea seems like the direction they've chosen to make it happen.
    Not quite. I agree they want her to be in Númenor (for what reason we do not yet know), but I disagree that's what her trip to Valinor is for. It's to show her refusing redemption in favor of vengeance - a choice she ultimately has to make, because that shows she's not worthy of redemption (yet) and knows it.

    But you're right that they added the whole Ep2 ocean thing to transition into her ending up in Númenor. Which is terrible writing. If they just wanted to get that done, have her picked up by a Númenoran ship immediately. Heck, have her see one from her boat - look at the ship, look at her dagger, look back at the ship, realize she has a way to get what she wants, jump overboard to take it. That makes a ton more sense than spending an entire episode with here trying to, uh, SWIM BACK TO LAND FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN or something, and then spend the rest of her time in a clingy wet dress being ogled by an inexplicably handsome rogue. That's a cheap attempt at fan service, nothing more. It's despicable visual practice, and it's abysmal writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It doesn't mean it's the wrong choice, it doesn't mean it's the right choice. It's simply her choice.
    Do I say "it's the wrong choice" in my quote? Do I say "it's the right choice"? No I don't.

  8. #4048
    Legendary! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Okay I told myself I'll watch a episode and give it a chance but is it any good? Did they get anything right?

  9. #4049
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    No one believes Sauron is around and the missions she has been going on have been to humor her, it could be possible the team are just a token force thrown together. I don't remember if they dropped a date, but Sauron re-emergence occurs something like 600 years after the defeat of Melkor.
    Yeah no one believe an immortal Maiar is around anymore, just Galadriel.

    And even when She brings conclusive proof, they still discart the idea, or say "if she find him it can create problems" or whatever, its just bad writing, and, its Gil'galad that informs Sauron is back, not her.
    I believe you are greatly underestimating legolas, he's son of the King, he was exceptional among his elves. Big rule with Tolkien tends to be your ability is tied to your status. Legolas, son of king; Gimli, descended from Durin; Aragon, King etc...
    The only other troll we see fight in enclosed spaces is in LotR and it was fighting beings that are significantly stronger than the average elf.
    Im not rly underestimating then, im treating then what its supposed to be, an elite squad to fight Sauron for hundreds of years

    7 average elf and Galadriel should be able to deal with the troll without getting their asses kicked

    This all come down to bad writing, if they suck so much, just make her go with 3 or 2, if they want to show her power, separate the group and make her solo the troll, like she did without making everyone looking like hobbits.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Because Dwarves are better anyways? IDK man, Tolkien's elves have a long and storied history of being egocentric failures and potato heads.
    If those elves are the elite, they would never win the ar of wrath and banish Morgoth, this is absurd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    Okay I told myself I'll watch a episode and give it a chance but is it any good? Did they get anything right?
    I mean, you find something "right" here and there, but a lot of shit is changed, some that don't make any sense, bad writing, bad dialogue, everything filled with pseudo intelligent speeches trying to be epic and complex. A lot of stuff trying to pull from the movies to bring nostalgia.

    Cgi, scenarios and music is good, though it seems they force the music where it should not be.

    I think this stuff is like fast and furious and transformers, pure garbage, but entertaining to some, especially for the people who don't know about the story or are just trying to take a day off and shut down the brain and watch some fantasy stuff.

  10. #4050
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    If someone goes "you're wrong doing A, you should do B instead" and you go "okay, I guess I will do B"... how is that not admitting that you were wrong? Or at the very least that you might have been wrong, and that they have a point when they say you should do B instead of A.
    Yes, but having admitted was absolutely pointless to overall narrative.

    And I can tell you very clearly, that by the second episode, nothing about 'I guess I will do B' has any impact or payoff to her arc whatsoever. It may as well have not happened at all, because it's actually not important at all to her story. Her having accepted Gil-Galad's gift is completely overshadowed by her actions by the end. The narrative itself puts zero importance on her having accepted it in the first place.

    As I've said, from a narrative point of view it could have been written any other way, and her having this revelation when she was far into the sea made little sense overall to her character, and to the narrative. The only reason it happened is because the writers literally want her to be in Numenor.

    That's exactly what happens here. The fact that she then changes her mind and STILL does A doesn't invalidate that. In fact it further reinforces the importance of A to you, because you're choosing to do it EVEN THOUGH you agreed with others that you should be doing B instead. That realization is what it's all about.
    It wasn't important at all.

    I'm not even sure why you are putting any significance on it at all, because the show sure isn't!

    That depends on what you mean by "being wrong". She's not wrong about Sauron being a threat. But she is absolutely wrong about risking her own life and that of others in the name of personal vengeance. That hasn't changed. That's also precisely what caused the departure of the Noldor from Valinor in the first place.

    That's the point here: that whether or not Sauron is still a threat doesn't matter, what she did was wrong either way. The ends do not justify the means.
    As a self-contained show, it's too early to tell what ends justify what means right now. If we're talking about her choosing to hunt Sauron, then she isn't wrong because the entire first episode dedicates itself to showing a growing evil around the world. And she is one of the powerful few individuals who may be capable of helping fight it. Narratively, it is not wrong, because the world of Middle Earth will need people to fight the growing evil, whatever form it takes.

    As I said, the narrative itself does not paint her actions as being wrong. They're only wrong if you take the single perspective of Gil-galad and his explanation that she would spread darkness. Otherwise everything else in the narrative implies that her choice may head to darkness, but will ultimately give her the wisdom to guide herself (and others) to the light.

    And it's through this journey she has to take in order to really see the truth of what is the real light. Based on the narrative, the right decision is implied to be the one that experiences evil and overcomes it. It might not be a very Tolkien theme, but it's what the show presents at the outset.

    You keep using the word "internalized" and I don't know what you're trying to say with it. That she changed her mind? That she didn't REALLY accept it? Yes... that's kind of the point. But it also matters that she DID accept it AT FIRST. Just because she changed her mind back later doesn't mean the time where she agreed isn't important. Because that's a concession on her part to the validity of the criticism against her. It shows us that even she thinks Gil-galad had a point. The fact that she then does her own thing anyway doesn't invalidate that, in fact it makes it even more important.
    And yet it's not important at all.

    Like I said, you could cut out the entire middle section of that story and everything plays out the same. Her character has put ZERO importance on her own regard to take up Gil-galad's gift, and has shown no actual progression in making a realization to stray away from the easy route. It's completely unnecessary because we're not talking about Galadriel going through a character arc, we're literally talking about the first episode merely establishing her journey.

    I would not be surprised if the boat moment never gets reflected on again in the rest of the series, and she literally continues to be the same Galadriel that we already know of from the first 20-minutes of the show, as if her decision to get on the boat never really mattered. I personally doubt this is as important as you seem to interpret it to be.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say. We know Galadriel is NOT the one who defeats Sauron in the original canon. Whether or not this show changes things we cannot say - if it does end up like that and she's the one standing with Elendil at Mount Doom or whatever, we need to reevaluate things. But for now, we KNOW that Galadriels ends will NOT be realized. She is NOT going to get her vengeance, because she is not going to be the one to defeat Sauron; not temporarily at the hands of the Last Alliance and not ultimately at the hands (or rather: the finger) of Frodo.
    While we don't know exactly what the show will do or change, I think one key thing they will do is show Galadriel obtaining her Ring of Power. Cuz it's in the name of the show. And somehow, this will tie into her journey into darkness, and ultimately show her coming out of it as well, hopefully a wiser character who acts rationally.

    Yes, but that will not be realized in this show, if it follows the canon in any appreciable way. She doesn't achieve this until LotR, which is thousands of years later. We will see the preconditions for that, and likely the beginning of her eventual redemption. But we will not see the redemption itself, given the expected scope of this show.
    I'm only explaining what we know of the show and what it's aimed to tell us. What direction they end up taking I can't say, but I'm sticking to information in the show and making any comments or criticisms specifically based on what they present to us in the show. Outside of that, we also know that the liscence deal they have with using Tolkien's works implies that they're not allowed to change what happens in LOTR, so they can't do something like prematurely one of the main named characters from the books or rewrite history into some alternate multiverse.

    I disagree. It establishes crucial definitions of her character and motivation. 1. that she's driven by vengeance; 2. that this is a flaw; 3. that she knows this is a flaw, but is unable to give it up anyway. They do this quite systematically, with a very standard array of narrative techniques. Whatever you can criticize the show for (and there are many things), that at least they did very meticulously and very thoroughly.
    I acknowledge your reasoning, and it's very sensible. All I can say is I equally disagree with 2 and 3, because I don't think the show even has her acknowledge any of her actions or motivations as being flaws. She actually feels compelled by it as a duty, and frankly the rest of the narrative supports her motives given that there is an evil growing in the world. It's still too early to see what direction they want to take her character, and whether she will become an anti-hero within the RoP narrative.

    It's really more Ep2 where she falls apart on a narrative level (she falls apart on the execution level way before that, because the acting and dialogue are... not good) as the whole thing about her on the ocean is just really bad in every way.
    Fully agreed.

    It most definitely would NOT have worked the same way, because that lacks her realization of her own flaws. This is important to be established in the narrative. You can't just skip steps and say it's the same journey because it ends up at the same destination. That's not how storytelling works.
    Again, I'm making a point that even if it were completely cut out, the story wouldn't change one bit, because I really doubt 'realization of her own flaws' will be a part of her story moving forward.

    The flaws you're talking about are addressed by the stone metaphor. If her flaw is 'vengeance/justice', then she is embracing it completely, and the stones metaphor covers her motivation to do so because she believes that Gil-Galad and her company are merely content with reflections, while she aims to seek the real light.

    Her flaws will lead her to the real light. So there's no point in 'realizing her flaws' when the narrative literally paints them to be the only way she can reach her goal of heading towards the light.

    But you're right that they added the whole Ep2 ocean thing to transition into her ending up in Númenor. Which is terrible writing. If they just wanted to get that done, have her picked up by a Númenoran ship immediately. Heck, have her see one from her boat - look at the ship, look at her dagger, look back at the ship, realize she has a way to get what she wants, jump overboard to take it. That makes a ton more sense than spending an entire episode with here trying to, uh, SWIM BACK TO LAND FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN or something, and then spend the rest of her time in a clingy wet dress being ogled by an inexplicably handsome rogue. That's a cheap attempt at fan service, nothing more. It's despicable visual practice, and it's abysmal writing.
    This is pretty much my thought process, and I think you agree that there alternatives to what they did here. In my mind, that turning point merely starts earlier in the series. Like, literally after the Troll scene, she lets her party go back to Elf lands, maybe we get some filler scenes with her struggling on her own and having flashbacks thinking back to conversations with Elrond, and finally they cap it off with her finding her journey taking her to Numenor some how, like finding Sauron's symbol on a Numenorean's corpse and leading her to go there.

    Still a bunch of 'what ifs', I admit, but I think whatever we got was ill-planned and ill-executed for what they intend her character and journey to be focused on. And yes, the ocean parts are just really really bad....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Even without them providing combat support (though the springboard was) you can see in the episode that some carry torches some have bows while Galadriel doesn't, So Even if there not combat supports they visually read as having a break up in duty's which could lead to her not being able to go on by her self.
    I mean, it kinda gets undermined after she tells Elrond she's gonna go back to hunting the evil that escaped in the North, alone, if she must.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 03:49 AM.

  11. #4051
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, but having admitted was absolutely pointless to overall narrative.
    Not it wasn't, and I've explained why in great detail several times now.

    Please engage with the explanation, don't just go back to the premise and disagree. You have this habit of not reading what I say, please don't do that again this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    As a self-contained show, it's too early to tell what ends justify what means right now.
    I think you may not understand what "the ends don't justify the means" is about. It's a GENERAL principle. It's not about specific cases. The ends NEVER justify the means. The point being that HOW you do something matters, and you cannot use RESULTS to justify OTHERWISE UNJUSTIFIABLE actions. That's why that particular adage exists - as a safeguard against wrong actions for right reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Narratively, it is not wrong, because the world of Middle Earth will need people to fight the growing evil, whatever form it takes.
    Yeah you clearly just don't know what "the ends don't justify the means" means. You should google the term first, and make sure you understand what it's actually about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    As I said, the narrative itself does not paint her actions as being wrong.
    It does from the very start, when she's callous and abusive towards her own people, to the point of them mutinying against her. If you don't think that qualifies as "what she did was wrong", I don't know what to tell you, clearly your moral compass is pointing in a whole other direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Like I said, you could cut out the entire middle section of that story and everything plays out the same.
    I've explained many times, using several different analogies, why "you end up in the same place" doesn't mean the journey didn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I would not be surprised if the boat moment never gets reflected on again in the rest of the series, and she literally continues to be the same Galadriel that we already know of from the first 20-minutes of the show, as if her decision to get on the boat never really mattered. I personally doubt this is as important as you seem to interpret it to be.
    I don't engage in speculation about the future. I can only deal with what we've actually seen. If it turns out they do something with it that changes the interpretation, cool, we go and revise things. Until and unless that happens, everything that isn't actually shown is the realm of speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, I'm making a point that even if it were completely cut out, the story wouldn't change one bit, because I really doubt 'realization of her own flaws' will be a part of her story moving forward.
    You're free to speculate about the future of the story. I don't. I'll adjust my interpretation as more episodes become available (for as long as I can stomach continued watching), but I will not speculate about the parts of the show I haven't seen. I can make inferences based on canonical events in the future; but those are subject to revision as well, given they are likely to change some things. Until and unless they do, I'll stick to what we actually know.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2022-09-08 at 04:50 AM.

  12. #4052
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean, it kinda gets undermined after she tells Elrond she's gonna go back to hunting the evil that escaped in the North, alone, if she must.
    A character deciding to commit to an impossible task alone doesn’t make that task any more achievable or even a good idea to try. This is something we see directly in the second episode where her going alone leads to her needing to rely on the raft people both because she can’t swim for ever and because she traps her self and needs to be freed by some one else.

    Hell this is also something we see in LoTR when Frodo leaves the fellowship to destroy the ring alone only to then rely on Sam at key parts of the quest.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #4053
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    When Gal jumped ship I kinda chuckled amusingly. In the beginning of the serie there is that classic map on parchment (to give so layout of places for those who may not know).
    The striped line animated to represent the high elves travel to Middle Earth is humongously far in that representation.

    Yet... she strech her limbs and swim for a short while and woopsie daisy here comes a suitable shipwreck. And we have yet to see when she use the sea wyrm as mount to get back for real. I dont care about it but I immediately knew some far fetched explanation is incoming. Dont remember that from the any books but was like 25y ago I read all but the main works.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2022-09-08 at 04:56 AM.
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  14. #4054
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    A character deciding to commit to an impossible task alone doesn’t make that task any more achievable or even a good idea to try. This is something we see directly in the second episode where her going alone leads to her needing to rely on the raft people both because she can’t swim for ever and because she traps her self and needs to be freed by some one else.

    Hell this is also something we see in LoTR when Frodo leaves the fellowship to destroy the ring alone only to then rely on Sam at key parts of the quest.
    Yeah but Sam wasn't shown to be completely useless, unlike her company whose screen time was dedicated to being a burden to her journey more than a boon. That's probably the biggest difference.

    Again, that is my biggest criticism for her party. If the argument is that they were important because they supported her journey, then it should be in more ways than things that she can literally do on her own like hold a torch or scout.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 04:59 AM.

  15. #4055
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    When Gal jumped ship I kinda chuckled amusingly. In the beginning of the serie there is that classic map on parchment (to give so layout of places for those who may not know).
    The striped line animated to represent the high elves travel to Middle Earth is humongously far in that representation.

    Yet... she strech her limbs and swim for a short while and woopsie daisy here comes a suitable shipwreck. And we have yet to see when she use the sea wyrm as mount to get back for real. I dont care about it but I immediately knew some far fetched explanation is incoming. Dont remember that from the any books but was like 25y ago I read all but the main works.
    Iirc minimal it is 400 miles, but could be up to 2000 miles from land... guess Galadriel has infinite stamina and is an expert swimmer too.
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    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Iirc minimal it is 400 miles, but could be up to 2000 miles from land... guess Galadriel has infinite stamina and is an expert swimmer too.
    Yes, have to add that to the list of expert marksmen, magicians, smiths etc.
    It's odd though, wonder what athletics dwarves shine in. Midget-Sumo wrestling perhaps or is that taken by haflings *ponder*
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

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    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah but Sam wasn't shown to be completely useless, unlike her company whose screen time was dedicated to being a burden to her journey more than a boon. That's probably the biggest difference.

    Again, that is my biggest criticism for her party. If the argument is that they were important because they supported her journey, then it should be in more ways than things that she can literally do on her own like hold a torch or scout.
    Sam literally started to drown when he tried to go with Frodo and had to be saved. He was pretty useless for a good chunk of the trip, arguably a detriment even.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  18. #4058
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sam literally started to drown when he tried to go with Frodo and had to be saved. He was pretty useless for a good chunk of the trip, arguably a detriment even.
    Na just a slow starter
    Give it 2h of movie or half a book and he start to gets his shit together. In a hobbit kinda (half useless/useful) way of cos.
    But soon after Mr Xi secured a third term, Apple released a new version of the feature in China, limiting its scope. Now Chinese users of iPhones and other Apple devices are restricted to a 10-minute window when receiving files from people who are not listed as a contact. After 10 minutes, users can only receive files from contacts.
    Apple did not explain why the update was first introduced in China, but over the years, the tech giant has been criticised for appeasing Beijing.

  19. #4059
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sam literally started to drown when he tried to go with Frodo and had to be saved. He was pretty useless for a good chunk of the trip, arguably a detriment even.
    Yes but like I said, he wasn't only useless. Them showing him ever being handy means he is still useful, even if he more bumbling than not in the first half of the series.

    The Elves in her company didn't do anything useful in that first episode. If they did something notable, then I'd have much less reason to complain because I can literally point to that as an example for why she needs them.

    The show didn't have any moments for them at all, and implying she'd suffer without help like she does in the open sea is quite an inadequate comparison considering she made that irrational move of her own accord. Her company wouldn't have been any more useful if they literally followed her into the water. I'd imagine most of them would have simply drowned in fact.

    Cuz let's face it, if they weren't given enough importance to literally be shown helping Galadriel in any way, and only be depicted as a burden, then that's really are they are in the context of the narrative.

    Just like Sam would be a burden if the movies only depicted him falling in water and cut out all the scenes where he was actually useful. The difference is Sam is still depicted as being useful in more ways than simply being moral support.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 05:28 AM.

  20. #4060
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes but like I said, he wasn't only useless. Them showing him ever being handy means he is still useful, even if he more bumbling than not in the first half of the series.

    The Elves in her company didn't do anything useful in that first episode. If they did something notable, then I'd have much less reason to complain because I can literally point to that as an example for why she needs them.

    The show didn't have any moments for them at all, and implying she'd suffer without help like she does in the open sea is quite an inadequate comparison considering she made that irrational move of her own accord. Her company wouldn't have been any more useful if they literally followed her into the water. I'd imagine most of them would have simply drowned in fact.
    The point isn’t that the troops she had would/should have gotten screen time being more helpful it’s that she can’t complete her impossible task alone and just like Sam having a companion be useless for a time (1, Mabye 2 movies) doesn’t mean that companions aren’t needed at all to make the goal actually archivable.

    Again this is something we literally see in the second episode even though she says she will go on her own if she has to she immediately has to rely on others as she can’t do it alone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Na just a slow starter
    Give it 2h of movie or half a book and he start to gets his shit together. In a hobbit kinda (half useless/useful) way of cos.
    Honestly given how much of a suck Frodo is id say Sam was a pretty good Emotional support hobbit even before then.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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