Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What pain and suffering is caused to her, both externally and internally, by these struggles? Does everyone not believing her cause self doubt? Do her failures cause her to deviate from her task?

we literally see both of these in the first episode. When Elrond mentions her leading elfs to there deaths she doubt's her self and deviates from her task agreeing to get on the boat to and go home before pulling back at the last second.

[Triceron]

Over pushing her men is a flaw, being unable to let go is a flaw(even if she’s right), being willing to sacrifice her people for her obsession is a flaw.

It's only a flaw if she internalizes it as one, if it actually builds up to showing some character depth.

So far, the writers have done nothing but tell us she's right and everyone else is just 'in her way'. Her characterization has not changed one bit so far, though I give benefit to the doubt that it's early enough in the story to not warrant an immediate character change. Just pointing out that nothing we've seen so far gives any reason to actually be invested in the character other than being 'Galadriel from the Books and Movies.'

If she were a brand new character, what would you say makes her interesting?

I mean, I could probably point to a dozen Walking Dead characters who portray this very same willingness to sacrifice people flaw, and it doesn't mean any of those characters are somehow more interesting for their single-mindedness. They still need nuance and characterization beyond that to round them out, something which we don't have for Galadriel and the current plot. That being said, I'm still gonna give the benefit of the doubt and hold out for the rest of the series. It just doesn't make sense to me why people are jumping the gun and implying she's a good (written) character at all when there's really nothing interesting to her character based on the two episodes we have so far.

[Gumble]

we literally see both of these in the first episode. When Elrond mentions her leading elfs to there deaths she doubt's her self and deviates from her task agreeing to get on the boat to and go home before pulling back at the last second.

I guess I missed the emotion or the change in her at all during that. If there was doubt it was hard to see and having her alter her actions for about 60 seconds before going "nope I'm right" kinda proves the point.

She's right, everyone else is wrong, they just need to recognize it.

[Kumorii]

Only emotion I've seen her do is makes her eyes slightly bigger when someone disagrees with her. Like she is slightly shocked.

[Syegfryed]

She fails at taking care of her men leading to them being fatigued and unable to go on.

She fails to convince her men that she found something of note leading to them abandoning her.

She fails at convincing her friends that darkness is still out there and that she shouldn’t be sent home.

What bullshit is this? she does not fail in any of those things because those are not her fault, its THEIR fault, THEY are so much garbage compared to her. How can you "fail" into taking care of your group to be fatigated when she herself does not get fatigated? the show make it so that is their fault by being weak or dumb.

She does not fail to convince then, they were just made stupid to dismiss it and think Sauron is gone, DESPITE THEY STRAIGHT UP FIDING EVIDENCE OF HIM

IN THE
SAME
SCENE

if you actually look at the events, she succeeds at finding a fortress that should never exist there, she succeeds by keeping everyone alive, there is even an extra elf there, she finds a door that there is no way of her knowing it's there and find a mark that should not be a thing

She fails to swim to land.

To be able to fail it must have an opportunity to fucking succeed, she would NEVER be able to swim back to land when she was that fucking far away already, she actually succeeds in staying alive after a moronic and suicidal move

She anchors her self to the second raft and tells the human to tie him self to her, this leads to the raft snapping and her sinking as she tied her self to the broken piece.

She fails to free her self from the rope while sinking.

But see dear, they have to make, totally-not-sauron, somehow competent, as the only person besides her in this show that don't have mental disability.

If you want to weight all of that against “she’s right about Sauron and can swim” and end up thinking she’s a Mary Sue there is no helping you.

thank god im not talking about mary sue shit, only the obnoxious parts of it and how they are butchering the character.

[Orby]

Yea netflix made even witcher series spectacular.

thats debatable. I have just as mnay issues with the Witcher so when it comes to their adaptations :P

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's only a flaw if she internalizes it as one, if it actually builds up to showing some character depth.

So far, the writers have done nothing but tell us she's right and everyone else is just 'in her way'. Her characterization has not changed one bit so far, though I give benefit to the doubt that it's early enough in the story to not warrant an immediate character change. Just pointing out that nothing we've seen so far gives any reason to actually be invested in the character other than being 'Galadriel from the Books and Movies.'

If she were a brand new character, what would you say makes her interesting?

A character flaw is just a trait that effects how they are read both in and out of setting in a negative way to not make them come cross as perfect, every thing surrounding her obsession and how she treats other because of it falls into that.

And I have literally no feeling towards Galadriel because of the books or movies I’m
Not a big fan of the Jackson movies and I’ve only read the the hobbit and first Lotr Books.

So she more or less is a new character for me and I liked her for the same reason I like say Kratos when God of war first came out. the archetype of “revenge at all cost” and how that can deconstruct a character is fascinating to me and doing that while also trying to keep up and elf’s grace and demeanour isn’t something I’ve seen before peaking my interest in her further.

Hell if she was a completely new character I’d Probably like her more as I wouldn’t know how far she’d go or if she came out of the other side of it.

- - - Updated - - -

What bullshit is this? she does not fail in any of those things because those are not her fault, its THEIR fault, THEY are so much garbage compared to her. How can you "fail" into taking care of your group to be fatigated when she herself does not get fatigated? the show make it so that is their fault by being weak or dumb.

not knowing the limit of those under you and how far they can be pushed is a failure of any leader. You could be a literal demigod but if you can’t complete your goal without those lesser then you and you break them before you even get to said goal your a failed leader.

She does not fail to convince then, they were just made stupid to dismiss it and think Sauron is gone, DESPITE THEY STRAIGHT UP FIDING EVIDENCE OF HIM

persuading some one to your point of view id a skill like any other the fact that they found evidence and she still couldn’t get any one to agree with her just shows how far she has failed both in keeping the trust of those around her and in persuading them to listen.

But see dear, they have to make, totally-not-sauron, somehow competent, as the only person besides her in this show that don't have mental disability.

Galadriel doesn’t have to miss judge the strength of there raft or trap her self while sinking to make him look competent just like all the elfs under her didn’t need to be weaker or less skilled in combat to make her look Competent.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess I missed the emotion or the change in her at all during that. If there was doubt it was hard to see and having her alter her actions for about 60 seconds before going "nope I'm right" kinda proves the point.

She's right, everyone else is wrong, they just need to recognize it.

She goes to the literal edge of heaven before turning back to her task, but if you want to move the goal post from “did she deviate” to “she didn’t deviate far enough” sure I guess I can’t stop you.

[Triceron]

Hell if she was a completely new character I’d Probably like her more as I wouldn’t know how far she’d go or if she came out of the other side of it.

That's fine if your explanation is as such, and I wouldn't argue against your opinion here. But as I point out here, there's nothing worth noting that's actually in the story so far that makes her an interesting character. All if her intrigue is in whatever people wish to project on to her as an otherwise uninteresting character.

And yes, I think we can say the same about Kratos, who really wasn't an interesting character at the outset. The game was interesting because of its gameplay and mechanics more than driven by the character's story. I'd persoanlly say Kratos as a character only really started getting interesting in the 3rd game, when he recognizes the actions of his past. IMO it was a strong setup for the current God of War series, and a much wiser, older Kratos.

I wouldn't point at any of the earlier God of War games as being strong for their story or characterization. It was a mindless action-blockbuster. The story was really just an excuse to kill a bunch of Gods.

[Romanthony]

Well I mean now i seen it all. NBC who are pretty much sayings Rings of power is a masterpiece is pretty much saying Tolkien was a Racist and that Amazon should be praised, for ending the Racist Legacy of lord of the rings. They even said that Tolkien made Orc to look Warty and ugly, because he saw them as black/Asians Like what are these people smoking?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...bate-rcna45955

[Kumorii]

Well I mean now i seen it all. NBC who are pretty much sayings Rings of power is a masterpiece is pretty much saying Tolkien was a Racist and that Amazon should be praised, for ending the Racist Legacy of lord of the rings. They even said that Tolkien made Orc to look Warty and ugly, because he saw them as black/Asians Like what are these people smoking?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...bate-rcna45955

people are projecting hard with the "Orcs are black people" argument. Which is kind of sick that they do so tbh.
Can't say I ever thought of black people when seeing an orc.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I wouldn't point at any of the earlier God of War games as being strong for their story or characterization. It was a mindless action-blockbuster. The story was really just an excuse to kill a bunch of Gods.

I don’t really have any thing else to add on the Galadriel front that wouldn’t be pedantic disagreements for the Sake of it as we just see the character different.

But as far as Kratos goes id agree that the first game isn’t great story or characterizing and is more so just a foundation. Though I’d disagree that story and characterization isn’t strong in the series as a hole the problem is mostly that getting a deeper understanding of Kratos isn’t in the main 3 games and it’s chains of Olympus ghost of Sparta and ascension which really flesh out the story and him as a character.

But Kratos is of course very off topic.

[Triceron]

I don’t really have any thing else to add on the Galadriel front that wouldn’t be pedantic disagreements for the Sake of it as we just see the character different.

But as far as Kratos goes id agree that the first game isn’t great story or characterizing and is more so just a foundation. Though I’d disagree that story and characterization isn’t strong in the series as a hole the problem is mostly that getting a deeper understanding of Kratos isn’t in the main 3 games and it’s chains of Olympus ghost of Sparta and ascension which really flesh out the story and him as a character.

But Kratos is of course very off topic.

That's exactly how I see this discussion going overall though.

Imagine people coming out of the woodwork to defend against criticisms (of the first game) of his character being uninteresting or lacking depth. It'd be just as confounding to me, because it's quite widely regarded that there isn't really anything interesting about Kratos other than what people want to project onto his 'blank slate'. It doesn't come from the character itself.

People finding interest out of Kratos being a brute bent on revenge is quite a different thing from defining him as an interesting character. And if people are openly defending criticisms against Kratos in this manner... Well that's why we're spiralling into this back and forth discussion about Galadriel in Rings of Power so far. IMO, I don't see any sensible reason to be defending her characterization as being interesting, when all that can be argued comes from a potential to be interesting.

[Monteverdi]

Can't we just enjoy the show without projecting social politics onto it? I enjoy Tolkien's works, I enjoyed the Peter Jackson adaptations, and so far I've enjoyed this show and I'm fucking sick of having to take a political stance any time I enjoy a work of fantasy fiction.

[Triceron]

Can't we just enjoy the show without projecting social politics onto it? I enjoy Tolkien's works, I enjoyed the Peter Jackson adaptations, and so far I've enjoyed this show and I'm fucking sick of having to take a political stance any time I enjoy a work of fantasy fiction.

Pretty sure you could, but these forums probably wouldn't be the place for it :P

[zEmini]

So far I feel like the pacing is slow and boring. Not a whole lot has happened yet and we are already 1/4 way through season 1

[Monteverdi]

Pretty sure you could, but these forums probably wouldn't be the place for it :P

Eh, problem is it's everywhere. We've all bought into this idea that every facet of life can and should be twisted to fit a political narrative that is largely being pushed by people with money who enrich themselves further by making sure we are emotional invested and at eachother's throats. I just want to enjoy some fantasy fiction, and honestly as a fan of Tolkien this show (while not a perfect start) has gotten off to a strong start IMO.

[Syegfryed]

not knowing the limit of those under you and how far they can be pushed is a failure of any leader. You could be a literal demigod but if you can’t complete your goal without those lesser then you and you break them before you even get to said goal your a failed leader.

And she immediately, like pointed out, realize she was wrong, again, not showing her to have any flaws, she is trough but know how to stop.

ITs also 100% bs that they even would break and she don't, are they elves or men? lmao

persuading some one to your point of view id a skill like any other the fact that they found evidence and she still couldn’t get any one to agree with her just shows how far she has failed both in keeping the trust of those around her and in persuading them to listen.

No, you are wrong, and its baffles me how you want to distort this that hard, it's like saying you as a professor, would failed at teaching high physics and mathematics to 5 years old children, not because their inability to proper understand those concepts yet, but because you are bad teacher

It's not her fault that the other elves are stupid and can't understand simple logic, she does not fail if they refuse to understand facts

Galadriel doesn’t have to miss judge the strength of there raft or trap her self while sinking to make him look competent just like all the elfs under her didn’t need to be weaker or less skilled in combat to make her look Competent.

They didn't, but that is exactly what happens because the writing is dogshit, and they are using amateurs' troops to write it

they can't write a strong or intelligent character; thus, they dumb everyone else around to make her and not-sauron better. The writing problem comes up time and time again of how they try to pass up as pseudo intelligent, complex or epic

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's exactly how I see this discussion going overall though.

Imagine people coming out of the woodwork to defend against criticisms (of the first game) of his character being uninteresting or lacking depth. It'd be just as confounding to me, because it's quite widely regarded that there isn't really anything interesting about Kratos other than what people want to project onto his 'blank slate'. It doesn't come from the character itself.

People finding interest out of Kratos being a brute bent on revenge is quite a different thing from defining him as an interesting character. And if people are openly defending criticisms against Kratos in this manner... Well that's why we're spiralling into this back and forth discussion about Galadriel in Rings of Power so far. IMO, I don't see any sensible reason to be defending her characterization as being interesting, when all that can be argued comes from a potential to be interesting.

If the first two episodes were a one off movie with a unsure future of continuation like the first GoW then Mabye I’d agree with you but the elvish demeanour would still push me towards her being more interesting then the archetype alone.

Add that we know there is more to the show and a supposed arch id just disagree.

Like if you showed me Gow 1 and told me there were a bunch of other games coming to flesh out Kratos further id be stocked to see his character develop further and I’d argue he had less going for him then Galadriel In the first game.

[InfiniteCharger]

And I've pointed out that they're deliberately made to fail in order to highlight the exceptional skill and determination of Galadriel, which is a 100% standard and established storytelling trope that happens all the time in all sorts of stories. You're creating a special situation in which you try to invalidate this trope for no good reason.


And you have the gall to talk about strawman? I point out the flaws in your argument, systematically and precisely. But instead of trying to argue against it, your defense becomes "oh you just think my opinion is bad and invalid and yours is the only one that counts". Bring ARGUMENTS, not insults and petty whining.

You calling it a trope doesn't mean it is good writing or appropriate in this particular series. It has nothing do with my point that all of them should have been competent. And I posted a trailer showing modern high fantasy combat where all of them are competent. So your point makes no sense as it is a common trope in MMOs, DnD and high fantasy that all of the team has to work together to be successful. That is one of the themes of this whole story from Tolkien. But like I said, he wrote his books decades before DnD and MMOs codified the rules of combat, skills, magic and abilities in the genre of high fantasy. And my point was if they wanted to "modernize" elements of Tolkien they could have shown more about how Elves train for combat or what kind of weapons they use, etc. But that would go against the story they are actually telling which requires Galadriel to be rejected by Gil Galad and Elrond for being to 'obsessive' in order for her to be put on a boat to Valinor, so that she can go on a swim and thus wind up on a raft with Halbrand and ultimately wind up in Numenor.

Tolkien does the same thing in his writing, as do the sources he references. Heroes coming in to save the day, and/or heroes surviving and winning when no one else could are the bread and butter of heroic storytelling. It's everywhere. This is completely standard and established for this kind of narrative.

No he doesnt. He shows people coming together and fighting together with their strengths to accomplish great things. Basically the precursor to questing and raiding in DnD and MMOs.

You don't use an army for scouting. That'd be moronic. I'm pretty sure I already went through the three steps: 1. Prove there's a threat 2. Find that threat 3. Defeat that threat. Steps 1 and 2 do not involve a massive army, because that would be inefficient and counterproductive. That's true for real-world military tactics, too. You don't use a 50,000-man army to gather intelligence or reconnoiter an area, either. What a ridiculous thought.

Don't you know that scouts are supposed to be among the cream of the crop troops since they are so far out in front of the rest of the force? How do these Elves represent the cream of the crop of the Elven armies? You keep not addressing what I actually wrote by just going on tangents. The point is these Elves are not depicted as competent at doing anything so it isn't a trope. Giving up and turning away from the leader is not a trope, it is bad writing because it is a contradiction on so many levels. It contradicts these Elves being competent. It contradicts Galadriel being badass (who should be respected because of it). It contradicts them going and looking for Sauron meaning you obviously need more than 10 men and those men should be the best and ready for what comes. But even beyond that, at no point is she shown leading an army regardless.

And as I (and others) have pointed out several times, NO ONE IS EXILING ANYONE. They're not being exiled. They're being allowed to go home. They ARE in exile. ALL OF THEM. Can you please not ignore it when people explain things to you? You keep going back to an incorrect point after it's been corrected several times by several people. That's very annoying.

The show itself has Elrond and Gil Galad explicitly stating this in the show. Now you are just really going far out of the way to contradict what is actually in the show itself. The whole point of that scene was to literally show that being on that boat was synonymous with her being bullied and rejected as a child. They literally replayed the words of her brother during that moment to reinforce this. You just refuse to accept that this literally what the point was of these scenes. That isn't even a defense it is a complete denial of reality.

Her we go again you trying to make me pointing out the flaw in your argument into me trying to prevent you from having an opinion. It gets old, man. ARGUE, don't whine. No one is trying to suppress your opinion when they're pointing out that your argument ignores the main motivating factor, and that it's no surprise if something seems inconsistent when you intentionally remove the thing that makes it consistent.

You haven't pointed out a flaw. There is no flaw in people not agreeing with you. This is your basic method of argument which is to pretend that only your opinion is correct and that anybody who disagrees is 'wrong' when having a different opinion is not always a right or wrong answer.

You can have all the opinions you like, but when you're doing something factually incorrect, people can point that out. Feel free to ignore them and just screech MUH OPINYAN, no one is trying to take that away from you.

Again, your first reply to me on this particular topic was to say it was flawed. That is the point. Lets move on.

You mean something like, I don't know, her consistently putting her obsession over the welfare of her people, to the point where they actively mutinied because she was pushing them too hard and too far? Are you saying that they didn't show this, or that this isn't a character flaw? I'm curious.

Like I said that is what a general does. That is not a character flaw. Generals and leaders of armies are always supposed to be vigilant and keeping the safety of the people their top concern. Not to mention why would she take troops with her on a mission if they couldn't hack it. Like I said it is a contradiction of writing but according to you that is a character flaw. Being concerned about your people and taking your best troops on a special mission is not a flaw. The flaw is in the writing in that they show these as troops as not being the best and not up to the task of the mission (dungeon, quest, raid, whatever) which was my point. That is not a trope. It is deliberate writing. And people in Tolkien's universe go on long quests all the time. This is the basis of all questing in DnD and MMOs to this day. So you don't even have your tropes right.

You're just lying, now. Not only is he mentioned, they literally HAVE HIS HAMMER and talk about him while HOLDING IT IN THEIR HANDS.

Did you actually watch the show? Be honest.

Feanor as the reason for the exile of the Noldor is not mentioned in the flashback. That is what I am pointing out because they don't have the rights to the Simarillion and having the hammer does not mean that they do.

https://screenrant.com/morgoth-lotr-...etails-missed/

Yes. As I've pointed out, there is basically no book material about the Galadriel of this period. I don't know why you want to counter this with "but what she did in the show isn't in the books!" when that's... the premise of my argument.

Because THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BOOKS about the Galadriel from this time. THAT'S THE POINT I WAS MAKING.

Dude. I have posted the entire story about this period multiple times. You are blatantly making up stuff and denying facts to make a point.
So there is no need for further discussion because obviously have no leg to stand on to defend your point.
The statement that there was nothing about Galadriel in this period in the books is not the same as there is no mention of Galadriel doing the things she did in this series. Big difference. This series is going against what was actually written and you are denying that. This series is not a canonical sequel to the Simarillion or canonical prequel to Lord of the Rings. They don't have the rights and it is not.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53897302

That is just a nonsensical illogical statement.

Do you actually read my posts or do you just wait for your turn to speak?


Now this is just blatantly false. It's not a "complete contradiction". There's incongruities, arising from the fact they inserted a new narrative; that's to be expected, and not uncommon for adaptations. But in no way do they "completely contradict" the books. That's a ridiculous accusation.

They don't respect her as shown numerous times in this series so far. Your argument that she is badass and awesome with flaws in no way reflects the obvious and blatant disrespect she is shown from childhood. There is no flaw in her as shown in this series justifying that. And your argument that there is nothing written about her in the books from this time period to contradict how she is depicted is blatantly false.....

I am done with you on this particular discussion because you cannot be taken seriously in saying that there is nothing written about her in this period.

[Triceron]

Eh, problem is it's everywhere. We've all bought into this idea that every facet of life can and should be twisted to fit a political narrative that is largely being pushed by people with money who enrich themselves further by making sure we are emotional invested and at eachother's throats. I just want to enjoy some fantasy fiction, and honestly as a fan of Tolkien this show (while not a perfect start) has gotten off to a strong start IMO.

Yeah but there could be forums or chat rooms that have heavier moderation or community that collectively avoids such things. This wouldn't be one of those places.