1. #4061
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Do you ever not create strawmen in order to defend yourself? I said the men in her squad should have been able to defend themselves without her against that troll, because they all should have been trained and skilled enough as members of this 'special' mission to find Sauron.
    And I've pointed out that they're deliberately made to fail in order to highlight the exceptional skill and determination of Galadriel, which is a 100% standard and established storytelling trope that happens all the time in all sorts of stories. You're creating a special situation in which you try to invalidate this trope for no good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And again, you love to argue that other people's are bad or invalid as if only your opinion counts.
    And you have the gall to talk about strawman? I point out the flaws in your argument, systematically and precisely. But instead of trying to argue against it, your defense becomes "oh you just think my opinion is bad and invalid and yours is the only one that counts". Bring ARGUMENTS, not insults and petty whining.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Those other men in that squad should have been able to do a better job against the troll. They should have been depicted as much more capable fighters, even if Galadriel is better. This isn't a Tolkien issue it is a writing issue for this series.
    Tolkien does the same thing in his writing, as do the sources he references. Heroes coming in to save the day, and/or heroes surviving and winning when no one else could are the bread and butter of heroic storytelling. It's everywhere. This is completely standard and established for this kind of narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And on top of that, we never see the "army" that she is supposedly leader of. What kind of army is 10 people? If she is a leader of an army she doesn't have to go to the High King and ask for permission to use her troops to find Sauron.
    You don't use an army for scouting. That'd be moronic. I'm pretty sure I already went through the three steps: 1. Prove there's a threat 2. Find that threat 3. Defeat that threat. Steps 1 and 2 do not involve a massive army, because that would be inefficient and counterproductive. That's true for real-world military tactics, too. You don't use a 50,000-man army to gather intelligence or reconnoiter an area, either. What a ridiculous thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    That is a contradiction is my point. It is not consistent with what is being shown or what actually happens. You don't decide to exile one of your best warriors because she is doing her job
    And as I (and others) have pointed out several times, NO ONE IS EXILING ANYONE. They're not being exiled. They're being allowed to go home. They ARE in exile. ALL OF THEM. Can you please not ignore it when people explain things to you? You keep going back to an incorrect point after it's been corrected several times by several people. That's very annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Here we go again with you trying to argue other can't have opinions.
    Her we go again you trying to make me pointing out the flaw in your argument into me trying to prevent you from having an opinion. It gets old, man. ARGUE, don't whine. No one is trying to suppress your opinion when they're pointing out that your argument ignores the main motivating factor, and that it's no surprise if something seems inconsistent when you intentionally remove the thing that makes it consistent.

    You can have all the opinions you like, but when you're doing something factually incorrect, people can point that out. Feel free to ignore them and just screech MUH OPINYAN, no one is trying to take that away from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    What I am saying is they haven't shown her character flaws as being part of this story.
    You mean something like, I don't know, her consistently putting her obsession over the welfare of her people, to the point where they actively mutinied because she was pushing them too hard and too far? Are you saying that they didn't show this, or that this isn't a character flaw? I'm curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And stop bringing up Feaonor. He isn't in this series at all and was never mentioned in the flashbacks.
    You're just lying, now. Not only is he mentioned, they literally HAVE HIS HAMMER and talk about him while HOLDING IT IN THEIR HANDS.

    Did you actually watch the show? Be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I am talking about how there was no disrespect, getting into fights and being sent back to Valinor in the books.
    Yes. As I've pointed out, there is basically no book material about the Galadriel of this period. I don't know why you want to counter this with "but what she did in the show isn't in the books!" when that's... the premise of my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    What is in this series is not a reflection of what is in the books at all.
    Because THERE IS NOTHING IN THE BOOKS about the Galadriel from this time. THAT'S THE POINT I WAS MAKING.

    Do you actually read my posts or do you just wait for your turn to speak?

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    It is a complete contradiction of what is actually in the books.
    Now this is just blatantly false. It's not a "complete contradiction". There's incongruities, arising from the fact they inserted a new narrative; that's to be expected, and not uncommon for adaptations. But in no way do they "completely contradict" the books. That's a ridiculous accusation.

  2. #4062
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Debatable. In this case, it shows he is not omnipotent (as was often an issue with him), can and will struggle and fail, which may then lead to self-doubt and feeling of hopelessness. Something they forgot in Justice League. Like, superhero failing is a staple character progression tool.
    And that is if they depict him with self doubt and a feeling of hopelessness. That would need to be shown.

    In the case of Galadriel, where is there any remorse in any of her actions so far? So far, her failings to protect her allies only redoubles her beliefs that evil is still out there. There is no internalized doubt or remorse for any of her actions.

    It's only a flaw if it's internalized. Otherwise a failing is merely an externalization that doesn't actually make a character more interesting. I would argue that Galadriel's character hasn't become any more interesting just because she 'failed as a commander'. The story could continue without ever regarding this point at all and it wouldn't really change her current characterization. She's still as highly motivated to throw away all her rank and titles just to fight evil, and that still isn't a flaw to her character.

  3. #4063
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    What pain and suffering is caused to her, both externally and internally, by these struggles? Does everyone not believing her cause self doubt? Do her failures cause her to deviate from her task?
    we literally see both of these in the first episode. When Elrond mentions her leading elfs to there deaths she doubt's her self and deviates from her task agreeing to get on the boat to and go home before pulling back at the last second.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #4064
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Over pushing her men is a flaw, being unable to let go is a flaw(even if she’s right), being willing to sacrifice her people for her obsession is a flaw.
    It's only a flaw if she internalizes it as one, if it actually builds up to showing some character depth.

    So far, the writers have done nothing but tell us she's right and everyone else is just 'in her way'. Her characterization has not changed one bit so far, though I give benefit to the doubt that it's early enough in the story to not warrant an immediate character change. Just pointing out that nothing we've seen so far gives any reason to actually be invested in the character other than being 'Galadriel from the Books and Movies.'

    If she were a brand new character, what would you say makes her interesting?

    I mean, I could probably point to a dozen Walking Dead characters who portray this very same willingness to sacrifice people flaw, and it doesn't mean any of those characters are somehow more interesting for their single-mindedness. They still need nuance and characterization beyond that to round them out, something which we don't have for Galadriel and the current plot. That being said, I'm still gonna give the benefit of the doubt and hold out for the rest of the series. It just doesn't make sense to me why people are jumping the gun and implying she's a good (written) character at all when there's really nothing interesting to her character based on the two episodes we have so far.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-06 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #4065
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    we literally see both of these in the first episode. When Elrond mentions her leading elfs to there deaths she doubt's her self and deviates from her task agreeing to get on the boat to and go home before pulling back at the last second.
    I guess I missed the emotion or the change in her at all during that. If there was doubt it was hard to see and having her alter her actions for about 60 seconds before going "nope I'm right" kinda proves the point.

    She's right, everyone else is wrong, they just need to recognize it.

  6. #4066
    Only emotion I've seen her do is makes her eyes slightly bigger when someone disagrees with her. Like she is slightly shocked.

  7. #4067
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    She fails at taking care of her men leading to them being fatigued and unable to go on.

    She fails to convince her men that she found something of note leading to them abandoning her.

    She fails at convincing her friends that darkness is still out there and that she shouldn’t be sent home.
    What bullshit is this? she does not fail in any of those things because those are not her fault, its THEIR fault, THEY are so much garbage compared to her. How can you "fail" into taking care of your group to be fatigated when she herself does not get fatigated? the show make it so that is their fault by being weak or dumb.

    She does not fail to convince then, they were just made stupid to dismiss it and think Sauron is gone, DESPITE THEY STRAIGHT UP FIDING EVIDENCE OF HIM

    IN THE
    SAME
    SCENE

    if you actually look at the events, she succeeds at finding a fortress that should never exist there, she succeeds by keeping everyone alive, there is even an extra elf there, she finds a door that there is no way of her knowing it's there and find a mark that should not be a thing

    She fails to swim to land.
    To be able to fail it must have an opportunity to fucking succeed, she would NEVER be able to swim back to land when she was that fucking far away already, she actually succeeds in staying alive after a moronic and suicidal move

    She anchors her self to the second raft and tells the human to tie him self to her, this leads to the raft snapping and her sinking as she tied her self to the broken piece.

    She fails to free her self from the rope while sinking.
    But see dear, they have to make, totally-not-sauron, somehow competent, as the only person besides her in this show that don't have mental disability.
    If you want to weight all of that against “she’s right about Sauron and can swim” and end up thinking she’s a Mary Sue there is no helping you.
    thank god im not talking about mary sue shit, only the obnoxious parts of it and how they are butchering the character.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-09-06 at 06:46 PM.

  8. #4068
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArminVanburkek View Post
    Yea netflix made even witcher series spectacular.
    thats debatable. I have just as mnay issues with the Witcher so when it comes to their adaptations :P
    "People fear, not death, but having life taken from them. Many waste the life given to them, occupying themselves with things that do not matter. When the end comes, they say they did not have time enough to spend with loved ones, to fulfill dreams, to go on adventures they only talked about... But why should you fear death if you are happy with the life you have led, if you can look back on everything and say, 'Yes, I am content. It is enough.'" - Wynne ( Dragon Age: Origins.)

  9. #4069
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's only a flaw if she internalizes it as one, if it actually builds up to showing some character depth.

    So far, the writers have done nothing but tell us she's right and everyone else is just 'in her way'. Her characterization has not changed one bit so far, though I give benefit to the doubt that it's early enough in the story to not warrant an immediate character change. Just pointing out that nothing we've seen so far gives any reason to actually be invested in the character other than being 'Galadriel from the Books and Movies.'

    If she were a brand new character, what would you say makes her interesting?
    A character flaw is just a trait that effects how they are read both in and out of setting in a negative way to not make them come cross as perfect, every thing surrounding her obsession and how she treats other because of it falls into that.

    And I have literally no feeling towards Galadriel because of the books or movies I’m
    Not a big fan of the Jackson movies and I’ve only read the the hobbit and first Lotr Books.

    So she more or less is a new character for me and I liked her for the same reason I like say Kratos when God of war first came out. the archetype of “revenge at all cost” and how that can deconstruct a character is fascinating to me and doing that while also trying to keep up and elf’s grace and demeanour isn’t something I’ve seen before peaking my interest in her further.

    Hell if she was a completely new character I’d Probably like her more as I wouldn’t know how far she’d go or if she came out of the other side of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    What bullshit is this? she does not fail in any of those things because those are not her fault, its THEIR fault, THEY are so much garbage compared to her. How can you "fail" into taking care of your group to be fatigated when she herself does not get fatigated? the show make it so that is their fault by being weak or dumb.
    not knowing the limit of those under you and how far they can be pushed is a failure of any leader. You could be a literal demigod but if you can’t complete your goal without those lesser then you and you break them before you even get to said goal your a failed leader.

    She does not fail to convince then, they were just made stupid to dismiss it and think Sauron is gone, DESPITE THEY STRAIGHT UP FIDING EVIDENCE OF HIM
    persuading some one to your point of view id a skill like any other the fact that they found evidence and she still couldn’t get any one to agree with her just shows how far she has failed both in keeping the trust of those around her and in persuading them to listen.

    But see dear, they have to make, totally-not-sauron, somehow competent, as the only person besides her in this show that don't have mental disability.
    Galadriel doesn’t have to miss judge the strength of there raft or trap her self while sinking to make him look competent just like all the elfs under her didn’t need to be weaker or less skilled in combat to make her look Competent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    I guess I missed the emotion or the change in her at all during that. If there was doubt it was hard to see and having her alter her actions for about 60 seconds before going "nope I'm right" kinda proves the point.

    She's right, everyone else is wrong, they just need to recognize it.
    She goes to the literal edge of heaven before turning back to her task, but if you want to move the goal post from “did she deviate” to “she didn’t deviate far enough” sure I guess I can’t stop you.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  10. #4070
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Hell if she was a completely new character I’d Probably like her more as I wouldn’t know how far she’d go or if she came out of the other side of it.
    That's fine if your explanation is as such, and I wouldn't argue against your opinion here. But as I point out here, there's nothing worth noting that's actually in the story so far that makes her an interesting character. All if her intrigue is in whatever people wish to project on to her as an otherwise uninteresting character.

    And yes, I think we can say the same about Kratos, who really wasn't an interesting character at the outset. The game was interesting because of its gameplay and mechanics more than driven by the character's story. I'd persoanlly say Kratos as a character only really started getting interesting in the 3rd game, when he recognizes the actions of his past. IMO it was a strong setup for the current God of War series, and a much wiser, older Kratos.

    I wouldn't point at any of the earlier God of War games as being strong for their story or characterization. It was a mindless action-blockbuster. The story was really just an excuse to kill a bunch of Gods.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-06 at 07:19 PM.

  11. #4071
    Well I mean now i seen it all. NBC who are pretty much sayings Rings of power is a masterpiece is pretty much saying Tolkien was a Racist and that Amazon should be praised, for ending the Racist Legacy of lord of the rings. They even said that Tolkien made Orc to look Warty and ugly, because he saw them as black/Asians Like what are these people smoking?

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...bate-rcna45955

  12. #4072
    Quote Originally Posted by Romanthony View Post
    Well I mean now i seen it all. NBC who are pretty much sayings Rings of power is a masterpiece is pretty much saying Tolkien was a Racist and that Amazon should be praised, for ending the Racist Legacy of lord of the rings. They even said that Tolkien made Orc to look Warty and ugly, because he saw them as black/Asians Like what are these people smoking?

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...bate-rcna45955
    people are projecting hard with the "Orcs are black people" argument. Which is kind of sick that they do so tbh.
    Can't say I ever thought of black people when seeing an orc.

  13. #4073
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I wouldn't point at any of the earlier God of War games as being strong for their story or characterization. It was a mindless action-blockbuster. The story was really just an excuse to kill a bunch of Gods.
    I don’t really have any thing else to add on the Galadriel front that wouldn’t be pedantic disagreements for the Sake of it as we just see the character different.

    But as far as Kratos goes id agree that the first game isn’t great story or characterizing and is more so just a foundation. Though I’d disagree that story and characterization isn’t strong in the series as a hole the problem is mostly that getting a deeper understanding of Kratos isn’t in the main 3 games and it’s chains of Olympus ghost of Sparta and ascension which really flesh out the story and him as a character.

    But Kratos is of course very off topic.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #4074
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I don’t really have any thing else to add on the Galadriel front that wouldn’t be pedantic disagreements for the Sake of it as we just see the character different.

    But as far as Kratos goes id agree that the first game isn’t great story or characterizing and is more so just a foundation. Though I’d disagree that story and characterization isn’t strong in the series as a hole the problem is mostly that getting a deeper understanding of Kratos isn’t in the main 3 games and it’s chains of Olympus ghost of Sparta and ascension which really flesh out the story and him as a character.

    But Kratos is of course very off topic.
    That's exactly how I see this discussion going overall though.

    Imagine people coming out of the woodwork to defend against criticisms (of the first game) of his character being uninteresting or lacking depth. It'd be just as confounding to me, because it's quite widely regarded that there isn't really anything interesting about Kratos other than what people want to project onto his 'blank slate'. It doesn't come from the character itself.

    People finding interest out of Kratos being a brute bent on revenge is quite a different thing from defining him as an interesting character. And if people are openly defending criticisms against Kratos in this manner... Well that's why we're spiralling into this back and forth discussion about Galadriel in Rings of Power so far. IMO, I don't see any sensible reason to be defending her characterization as being interesting, when all that can be argued comes from a potential to be interesting.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-06 at 07:46 PM.

  15. #4075
    Can't we just enjoy the show without projecting social politics onto it? I enjoy Tolkien's works, I enjoyed the Peter Jackson adaptations, and so far I've enjoyed this show and I'm fucking sick of having to take a political stance any time I enjoy a work of fantasy fiction.

  16. #4076
    Quote Originally Posted by Monteverdi View Post
    Can't we just enjoy the show without projecting social politics onto it? I enjoy Tolkien's works, I enjoyed the Peter Jackson adaptations, and so far I've enjoyed this show and I'm fucking sick of having to take a political stance any time I enjoy a work of fantasy fiction.
    Pretty sure you could, but these forums probably wouldn't be the place for it :P

  17. #4077
    The Lightbringer zEmini's Avatar
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    So far I feel like the pacing is slow and boring. Not a whole lot has happened yet and we are already 1/4 way through season 1

  18. #4078
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Pretty sure you could, but these forums probably wouldn't be the place for it :P
    Eh, problem is it's everywhere. We've all bought into this idea that every facet of life can and should be twisted to fit a political narrative that is largely being pushed by people with money who enrich themselves further by making sure we are emotional invested and at eachother's throats. I just want to enjoy some fantasy fiction, and honestly as a fan of Tolkien this show (while not a perfect start) has gotten off to a strong start IMO.

  19. #4079
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    not knowing the limit of those under you and how far they can be pushed is a failure of any leader. You could be a literal demigod but if you can’t complete your goal without those lesser then you and you break them before you even get to said goal your a failed leader.
    And she immediately, like pointed out, realize she was wrong, again, not showing her to have any flaws, she is trough but know how to stop.

    ITs also 100% bs that they even would break and she don't, are they elves or men? lmao
    persuading some one to your point of view id a skill like any other the fact that they found evidence and she still couldn’t get any one to agree with her just shows how far she has failed both in keeping the trust of those around her and in persuading them to listen.
    No, you are wrong, and its baffles me how you want to distort this that hard, it's like saying you as a professor, would failed at teaching high physics and mathematics to 5 years old children, not because their inability to proper understand those concepts yet, but because you are bad teacher

    It's not her fault that the other elves are stupid and can't understand simple logic, she does not fail if they refuse to understand facts

    Galadriel doesn’t have to miss judge the strength of there raft or trap her self while sinking to make him look competent just like all the elfs under her didn’t need to be weaker or less skilled in combat to make her look Competent.
    They didn't, but that is exactly what happens because the writing is dogshit, and they are using amateurs' troops to write it

    they can't write a strong or intelligent character; thus, they dumb everyone else around to make her and not-sauron better. The writing problem comes up time and time again of how they try to pass up as pseudo intelligent, complex or epic

  20. #4080
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's exactly how I see this discussion going overall though.

    Imagine people coming out of the woodwork to defend against criticisms (of the first game) of his character being uninteresting or lacking depth. It'd be just as confounding to me, because it's quite widely regarded that there isn't really anything interesting about Kratos other than what people want to project onto his 'blank slate'. It doesn't come from the character itself.

    People finding interest out of Kratos being a brute bent on revenge is quite a different thing from defining him as an interesting character. And if people are openly defending criticisms against Kratos in this manner... Well that's why we're spiralling into this back and forth discussion about Galadriel in Rings of Power so far. IMO, I don't see any sensible reason to be defending her characterization as being interesting, when all that can be argued comes from a potential to be interesting.
    If the first two episodes were a one off movie with a unsure future of continuation like the first GoW then Mabye I’d agree with you but the elvish demeanour would still push me towards her being more interesting then the archetype alone.

    Add that we know there is more to the show and a supposed arch id just disagree.

    Like if you showed me Gow 1 and told me there were a bunch of other games coming to flesh out Kratos further id be stocked to see his character develop further and I’d argue he had less going for him then Galadriel In the first game.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

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