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[Triceron]

Did you miss the part where she returned to Lindon with the other Elves because she couldn't continue the hunt alone?

Her motives contradict her actions. She returned to Lindon, but we don't even really know why or for what reason. Look at the scene where she gets the ultimatum from her company, she doesn't go back willingly. This may imply that she can't do it alone, but she literally explains to Elrond that she's determined to go back alone. My argument that her decision to return does not make sense based on what we've seen established in her journey. She goes back, but there is nothing that implies she had to because she needed support of her troops, because the show failed to establish that connection. It's actually left completely ambiguous, and only implies she has to go back because of the other Elves. But there are other factors as well, like her seeking Elrond to have an audience with the King to show him Sauron's mark.

And what exactly did her returning to Lindon actually serve to make her decide she will go it alone, and not when she's already in the North?

Well, the writers needed her to have some dialogue with Elrond and set up to place her in the middle of the ocean, is what. These events are all written to have her placed in a situation that takes her to Numenor.

[Dhrizzle]

Her motives contradict her actions. She returned to Lindon, but we don't even really know why or for what reason. Look at the scene where she gets the ultimatum from her company, she doesn't go back willingly. This may imply that she can't do it alone, but she literally explains to Elrond that she's determined to go back alone. So what exactly did her returning to Lindon actually serve to make her decide she will go it alone, and not when she's already in the North?

Well, the writers needed her to have some dialogue with Elrond and set up to place her in the middle of the ocean, is what. These events are all written to have her placed in a situation that takes her to Numenor.

And it seems pretty clear to everyone present, characters and audience alike, that it would mean pretty much certain death if she did go alone. And really dude, you can't imagine any other way for her to go to Numenor, like just deciding to go, hearing rumours of Sauron or receiving word from the Faithful?

[Syegfryed]

@Triceron if you're lucky they might make a prequel series that goes into all the details you might desire about the Elves who accompany Galadriel to the North, but for this series it isn't necessary at all.

That would be a better story than the one they are trying to spit here

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And it seems pretty clear to everyone present, characters and audience alike, that it would mean pretty much certain death if she did go alone. And really dude, you can't imagine any other way for her to go to Numenor, like just deciding to go, hearing rumours of Sauron or receiving word from the Faithful?

If she went alone nothing would change, it would not be certain death, the show make it prtty clear she is stronger than everyone else and does not get tired

the group is 100% there to be dumb and weak so she can be intelligent and strong, and to make some nonsensical small talk about the plot

[Triceron]

And it seems pretty clear to everyone present, characters and audience alike, that it would mean pretty much certain death if she did go alone. And really dude, you can't imagine any other way for her to go to Numenor, like just deciding to go, hearing rumours of Sauron or receiving word from the Faithful?

But that's my POINT!

They COULD do any alternative to have her placed in Numenor, but THIS is the way they're doing it and it's absolutely counter-intuitive. It makes the entire company of Elves pointless to her story, and the entire story we're given so far is a roundabout way to place her near Numenor. There's literally no other reason I see that makes sense out of putting her out in sea and having her jump ship to swim it alone when she's that far out in sea. I think that there could have been any number of alternatives that would work, and wouldn't be as ridiculous as what we ended up getting.

I even wrote this in a reply to another discussion:

In my mind, that turning point (to go off alone) merely starts earlier in the series. Like, literally after the Troll scene, she lets her party go back to Elf lands, maybe we get some filler scenes with her struggling on her own and having flashbacks thinking back to conversations with Elrond, and finally they cap it off with her finding her journey taking her to Numenor some how, like finding Sauron's symbol on a Numenorean's corpse and leading her to go there.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes, thank you. That has been my point. We can agree that they didn't introduce these characters to show support. They are not there to show she can't do it alone. And for them to be introduced in that position makes them pointless to her story, because 'showing she's gone too far' can also be achieved by showing her hunt down Sauron alone, just as we see her at the end of the episode.

The company was absolutely pointless to her story. Whether they were there or not, she was still going to go hunt Sauron on her own. All other dialogue could have been done through her reflecting on flashback scenes. Mandalorian did this well, showing more and more of Din's past as he slips into memories when he falls asleep or gets rocked.

The show didn't even need to introduce her leading a company and ending up on a boat to Valinor to establish this, they were already implied with her literally trekking into the north to find Sauron. In context of what we've seen of her party, it would have made zero difference if the other Elves were with her or not. They were only ever shown holding her back.

The core theme of the first episode is being able to tell the difference between the light and its false reflection. Galadriel is on one side her troops on another, she is looking to convince them to her side to get there support and when they are willing to go as far as to abandon there duty to rebuke her idea of what is right she has to rethink her position and rather she’s actually right which is then reiterated with her talk with Elrond.

She then is diverted from what she thinks is the light due to Elrond and joins the rest of her troops on the trip home only to “see the dark” at the edge and turn back to her vision of the light.

So yes they could have her go her hunt down Sauron alone at the start of the episode but that would miss the whole theme of the episode.

[Myradin]

And it seems pretty clear to everyone present, characters and audience alike, that it would mean pretty much certain death if she did go alone.

Quite the opposite. I got the impression she only went back cause the rest of the party forced her to. She dealt with the environment and enemies just fine, unlike the rest.

And then they show us she's convinced she can swim across an ocean.

And really dude, you can't imagine any other way for her to go to Numenor, like just deciding to go, hearing rumours of Sauron or receiving word from the Faithful?

We can imagine other ways, but this seems to be the silly way the writers have engineered this scenario.

[Triceron]

So yes they could have her go her hunt down Sauron alone at the start of the episode but that would miss the whole theme of the episode.

Are you literally arguing there was no other way to illustrate that point without having her sent to Valinor and jumping ship? That there is no way to punctuate that into a solo journey story?

Really? This is your argument?

[Dhrizzle]

If she went alone nothing would change, it would not be certain death, the show make it prtty clear she is stronger than everyone else and does not get tired

the group is 100% there to be dumb and weak so she can be intelligent and strong, and to make some nonsensical small talk about the plot

If you want to look at this show in the dumbest possible way and imagine situations that it clearly shows not happening then have fun but it makes it absolutely pointless discussing things with you.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Which enhances the point that she doesn't need her team...
Reason why I brought this scene up is because it would be perfect to actually establish some form of relationship between the two that would show they actually do need each other. But instead the scene shows the opposite, as you even seem to agree on.

Not even sure what your argument is.

The point isn’t that she needs those specific elf’s it’s that she can’t do it alone and needs support which is why when they’re support is taken she try’s to convince others that she is right and when no one will
Support her she falters and almost abandons her quest only to redouble her efforts and then find her self still needing the support of others even though she said she’d go alone if she needed to.


The rock climb scene shows that her squad is still supporting each other that they aren’t just useless body’s but that even though they stand with each other she has been driving them away from her which comes to a head after the troll.

[Dhrizzle]

But that's my POINT!

They COULD do any alternative to have her placed in Numenor, but THIS is the way they're doing it and it's absolutely counter-intuitive. It makes the entire company of Elves pointless to her story, and the entire story we're given so far is a roundabout way to place her near Numenor. There's literally no other reason I see that makes sense out of putting her out in sea and having her jump ship to swim it alone when she's that far out in sea. I think that there could have been any number of alternatives that would work, and wouldn't be as ridiculous as what we ended up getting.

I even wrote this in a reply to another discussion:

In my mind, that turning point (to go off alone) merely starts earlier in the series. Like, literally after the Troll scene, she lets her party go back to Elf lands, maybe we get some filler scenes with her struggling on her own and having flashbacks thinking back to conversations with Elrond, and finally they cap it off with her finding her journey taking her to Numenor some how, like finding Sauron's symbol on a Numenorean's corpse and leading her to go there.

Except doing it this way allows them to show her refusing to return to the Undying Lands because she feels it is her duty to continue opposing Sauron in Middle-earth which is an incredibly important part of her story that they don't have the license for.

[Kumorii]

The point isn’t that she needs those specific elf’s it’s that she can’t do it alone and needs support which is why when they’re support is taken she try’s to convince others that she is right and when no one will
Support her she falters and almost abandons her quest only to redouble her efforts and then find her self still needing the support of others even though she said she’d go alone if she needed to.

And this would be a good scene to actually SHOW that she does indeed need support.
Which is the entire point of the argument. Don't IMPLY she needs support, SHOW she needs support. So far the entire opening scene shows she needs nothing of the sort.

She goes back to Lindon because she can't do it alone, I'm not arguing that isn't the case. Problem is the scenes beforehand showed she needed no support, so why go back because she needs support? That's what makes little sense.

The rock climb scene shows that her squad is still supporting each other that they aren’t just useless body’s but that even though they stand with each other she has been driving them away from her which comes to a head after the troll.

That entire scene reinforces they are useless bodies. Galadriel not needing them and then they need to help each other just double down on that fact. They can go back, Galadriel can continue, because they have done absolutely nothing to help her and in fact they just show that they slow her down. Tripling down on them being detrimental.

[Triceron]

The rock climb scene shows that her squad is still supporting each other that they aren’t just useless body’s but that even though they stand with each other she has been driving them away from her which comes to a head after the troll.

Eh, watch the scene again. It didn't show any team work at all that would have supported Galadriel whatsoever.

None of them used ropes to connect to each other, they were all individually climbing. Any efforts to show teamwork actually gets shrugged off, especially when you see Elves offering their hands to pull up their friend and he just shrugs them aside. And to make it even more damning, we see Galadriel way far ahead of all the other Elves, illustrating that she's physically superior them all and doesn't even need to wait for them to catch up.

Sometimes I wonder if we even watched the same show.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Are you literally arguing there was no other way to illustrate that point without having her sent to Valinor and jumping ship? That there is no way to punctuate that into a solo journey story?

Really? This is your argument?

Did I say there was literally no other way to make that point but the ship?

[Dhrizzle]

Quite the opposite. I got the impression she only went back cause the rest of the party forced her to. She dealt with the environment and enemies just fine, unlike the rest.

They said she could go on but it would have to be alone. She chose not to and instead wanted more troops.

And then they show us she's convinced she can swim across an ocean.

If you watch the scene as Galadriel is approaching the Shadowy Sea it is intercut with ominous forces at work (I think the meteor, the sword and the dying leaf.) It is these that cause her to turn back at the very last moment at which point there is little choice other than diving into the sea and putting herself in the hands of Ulmo or Ossë.

[Triceron]

Except doing it this way allows them to show her refusing to return to the Undying Lands because she feels it is her duty to continue opposing Sauron in Middle-earth which is an incredibly important part of her story that they don't have the license for.

It is a ridiculous and quite unbelievable way to show her refusing to return to the Undying Lands. That's been the crux of my criticism here.

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Did I say there was literally no other way to make that point but the ship?

You imply it by saying they could do that but it would miss the point of the episode.

You couldn't imagine a scenario where they have her off alone and still be able to hit the same points? Cuz that is literally what you're arguing here. That somehow, any alternative would miss the point they were trying to make, as if it were the only way to make it.

I'm literally criticizing the episode for being counter-intuitive to making a point that could have been established at the very start of the show. Everything else that you're talking about could just as easily been formulated through flashback scenes or new scenes that involve her struggles alone. The only difference would be that she isn't smack-dab in the middle of the sea by the end of the episode.

Her choosing to go alone cements the reflection metaphor. Like I said, establishing this right after the Troll fight would have served the exact same purpose, and punch the idea that Gil-Galad and her company are the ones chasing a reflection while she is delving into the darkness to gain the wisdom to find the true light. In both situations, the reflection metaphor is internalized through her own flashback, and could be revealed in her story at any time.

She could go off alone at any given moment and the point of the story would remain exactly the same. They could literally start off the episode showing her alone, and struggling alone. Then have her travels with her company be slowly revealed in chunks as a series of flashbacks, with the stones metaphor and her choice to leave them behind being the full reveal for why she abandoned them. Done.

[frn1]

Dude on the boat rescues her, supports her idea that evil is still out there and saves her while sinking.

oh you mean totally not sauron.. that does not make any sense though.

[Syegfryed]

If you want to look at this show in the dumbest possible way and imagine situations that it clearly shows not happening then have fun but it makes it absolutely pointless discussing things with you.

Thankfully i don't need to look at it at the dumbest possible way, the show already made the job to be made in the dumbest way possible, but sure, try to attack me cause you can't salvage this shitshow

[Kumorii]

Thankfully i don't need to look at it at the dumbest possible way, the show already made the job to be made in the dumbest way possible, but sure, try to attack me cause you can't salvage this shitshow

It's kind of ironic. Having to imagine things happening outside what's shown for it to make sense is to look at it in the most dumb way possible.
Literally every bad series or movie can be made good and make sense if we ignore what's shown and just imagine the good bits.
It's dumb in the "positive" direction this time though.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And this would be a good scene to actually SHOW that she does indeed need support.
Which is the entire point of the argument. Don't IMPLY she needs support, SHOW she needs support. So far the entire opening scene shows she needs nothing of the sort.

She goes back to Lindon because she can't do it alone, I'm not arguing that isn't the case. Problem is the scenes beforehand showed she needed no support, so why go back because she needs support? That's what makes little sense.




That entire scene reinforces they are useless bodies. Galadriel not needing them and then they need to help each other just double down on that fact. They can go back, Galadriel can continue, because they have done absolutely nothing to help her and in fact they just show that they slow her down. Tripling down on them being detrimental.

Yes they could have used the ice wall to show them supporting her but they instead used it to show her not caring about her troops and that while the squad is standing together she is driven to not make sure they are already. This then shows up again when they are in the snow storm and after multiple calls she does actually turn back to show that she’s not fully heart less to the well being of her men.

Then finally when met with the ultimatum of going on alone she chooses to go back with the Mark to try and drum up new troops for her cause.

Narratively the scenes exist to show the divides between her and her men while also showing that she’s not so far gone that she will abandon one or think she can go on alone.

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we see Galadriel way far ahead of all the other Elves, illustrating that she's physically superior them all and doesn't even need to wait for them to catch up.

I’d say the the rest of the Squad waiting and showing concern about each other shows that Galadriel isn’t thinking about her men and there well being as she’s focused on pushing on.

This then comes up a couple scenes later in the snow storm where she does actually go back and help showing she’s not completely alienated by there inability to keep up.

[Dhrizzle]

It's kind of ironic. Having to imagine things happening outside what's shown for it to make sense is to look at it in the most dumb way possible.
Literally every bad series or movie can be made good and make sense if we ignore what's shown and just imagine the good bits.
It's dumb in the "positive" direction this time though.

Do you agree with Syegfryed that exhausted Elves being battered by a troll shows they are all useless dumbasses, and that Galadriel returning to Lindon for reinforcements shows that she could have carried on the hunt successfully alone?