Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Osperand]

As a very old LOTR fan (not as old as Gandalf but look like i am lol) i have to say i have been pleasantly surprised at how good it has been so far.

Excellent start, I hope it continues to enthral me.

[Adamas102]

To be very honest, they should have just made a new character.

They already have brand new characters like Arondir, is there any reason this new warrior Elf commander lady has to be Galadriel and not a new character?

Yes. The point was to root the show with a recognizable character for people who might only be familiar with the movies and novels. Only her and Elrond fit that bill (so far), so it makes sense that they are two of the primary characters.

As for her depiction as a warrior being different than how she appears in LotR, it’s called a character arc. Yeah, we’re not supposed to be worried about her dying because we know she’s alive much later. The draw of the narrative should be in how she gets from this version of the character to the one we meet in Fellowship.

It’s ridiculous that so many people argue for her being nothing but a static character. Portrayed in this show exactly in the same way she is presented thousands of years later. That’s not interesting in the least bit.

Veeeery few of Tolkien’s non-novel characters actually had arcs. Most of the ones that did were humans that succumbed to Sauron’s corruption, while the rest of the characters simply showed up for events or had things happen to them. That’s one of the weaknesses of having such an underdeveloped narrative for the FA and SA, so it makes total sense for the show to change things in order to accommodate more character arcs.

This is the same for Miriel. Tolkien’s character is completely passive with zero agency. You could pretty much remove her from the story and nothing would really change for the narrative. Setting her up as an actual ruler who THEN loses her kingdom makes for an infinitely more interesting character. That’s not to say that the show will handle it well, but it makes sense for them to try, as it does with Galadriel.

[Triceron]

It is a fresh introduction to the character...but that doesn't mean it's a completely blank slate.

Regardless of what you think they have to be, they still are.

In the context of any new series, all characters ARE blank slates. That is why it is the writers jobs to introduce them by crafting a script that weaves in all the necessary information the audience needs to know about them.

If you're really hung up on the semantics, I'll defer to 'newly-established' character. The intent is to differentiate from any pre-existing established characters from a series of fiction like say characters entering a sequel or spinoff. A different version of the same character that has not been seen before would be a 'newly-established' character if being presented in a new series, such as Galadriel in RoP first 20 minutes or Tom Holland Spiderman during Tony's visit in Civil War.

Tony talks to Peter for five minutes and he is going to bring him into a fight like that? And not only that...he also already happens to have a Suit made for the kid? But it has to happen that way because they've got to keep the pace of the movie flowing.

Yet that 5 minutes is all the audience needs to temper their expectations. What actually happens in that time? We see his feats in a blurry 'youtube' video showing off his powers. He shoots the web at Tony and explains briefly how it works. Tony has exposition that implies he's scouted and prepped for this new guy. Spiderman isn't just thrown into the fight, the audience has plenty to work with.

Sure, he's not beholden to them... but he's not a completely new character. He's still Peter Parker...and because of that you know there are things about him that going to be same. That's the whole reason they didn't have to do his origin story again.

You misunderstand because my intent is not on making any distinction between franchise properties, but of characters as they relate to a narrative.

'New' is a relative term to differentiate from any pre-existing character being carried over from some connected 'cinematic universe'. Like Legolas being in the Hobbit would not have been a newly-established character, he would have been a pre-existing established character aince we know hom directly from LOTR.

Sure, they did establish a little regarding the basic powers...but they let the previous incarnations do a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to the actual character of Peter Parker. The thing with the webshooters was more about building his relationship with Tony than anything else. Tony has to see in Peter a little bit of himself (but better)or their relationship doesn't work.

Which is exactly what I am criticizing that Galadriel lacked. A simple montage of her using her sword before the troll fight would have worked. We needed some information for what characters we're dealing with. We have absolutely no idea what level of fighting capability Galadriel and her company has prior to the Snow Troll fight. The snow troll IMO should have been a fight that was built up to through information we have on the characters or through scenes that presented how they fight, not be the point that first establishes their fighting prowess.

I mean, she killed a Snow Troll...she didn't slay Sauron. I just thinking your making way too much of a fuss about it. It was the establishment scene. It could perhaps have been handled with a bit more finesse... but they needed to establish her bonafides quickly...it's an 8 episode season...they can't spend an entire episode building Galadriel up.

It's actually very simple to think about, but difficult to explain to someone who doesn't have a grasp of why properly establishing characters is important to the narrative. I mean, IMO it should be quite obvious that any new character needs to have seeds of information that draws the audience to formulate a bigger picture idea of who they're dealing with.

The fact we're talking around in circles about 'Different versions of the same character' or other semantics tells me that the point is completely being missed. The 2-sentence reply I gave to Orby should have been sufficient to carry my message across, but clearly the nuance was lost on you since you thought it was all about likeability and physics.

As I said, they don't even need to build Galadriel up thorugh having her kill the Snow Troll alone. There are numerous ways to go about it while making her a relatable and empathetic character of strong will and personal physical strength. Literally have the Elves be hurt, and once she arrives, have her command them and whip them back into formation and actually lead them into concerted effort to take the creature down. Show us that she's actually a Leader worth rooting for. Instead, everything we've been shown has hammered to the point that her character is completely selfish. In MOBA terms, she is the 'Carry', and the show confuses the Carry for being the Leader.

She could still have her Troll-slaying moment with the other Elves helping in the fight and it wouldn't really take anything from her character. Just like Legolas taking down the Cave Troll is still seen as part of an ensemble effort, and he still gets to show off his skills and take credit for a cool killshot. And it wouldn't have made the rest of the fellowship look completely inadequate since there was ample time spent on showing everyone's capabilities.

As I'm saying, the scene's problem is not due to 'lacking finesse', it's from setting a tone that contradicts the narrative they intended to show for the character of Galadriel and her company. What is supposed to be a cool fight scene has ramifactions for making her entire company look like they're only holding her back. It's really not that hard to grasp given the little information the show actually gives you in the first 20 minutes.

[bledgor]

...

Make the current tv show Galadriels arc Elrond's instead, we know he is to become a leader in the last alliance of elf and man, here they could show him as brash and young (as he is younger than a lot of other elves, including Galadriel who is literally a couple Millennial old at this point, and should either be having or raising a daughter). You could include his courtship of Celebrian, Galadriel + Celeborn's slow acceptance of him as he becomes a better leader/Elf. A better arc for Galadriel would have been her being more passive/in the background at the start as she was focusing on her family/leading her realm, before the onslaught of Sauron/the death of Celebrimbor causes her to stop forward as a commander (not a front line fight) of the forces with Gil-Galad and her husband to defeat the evil.

Her arc would have been that of someone who was reluctant to step forward, but circumstances forced it and her gradual acceptance that as long as she lives and wants to be a part of the world/leader of her people she can't just ignore problems, but has to actively protect. Is it the most interesting and new of arcs, no but it fits with what viewers of LoTR know, closer to her base character, and allows for some new additions that thematically fit her.

Also by making Elrond take her role you can go back and give Celebrimbor his parts back, like being a friend of the Dwarfs, someone who loves Galadriel, and someone more active in the age than just the forger of the rings. With the current story Celebrimbor will get little to no arc/screen time till he makes the rings. I don't see how they plan to make people care about him when Sauron kills him (doubt they make him a banner he waves around), but instead if he was the friend of Durin IV, who visited his family, if he was shown to be close to Galadriel and Celeborn, you can show how his loss affects them and by proxy us the viewer.

All the changes they have made will/have had cascading influences on a lot of things down the pipeline, things that will require even more changes by far lesser writers, and the first two episodes have done NOTHING to inspire confidence in me that they can pull it off.

As for Tar-Miriel, I think it would have been fine to have the original start, just have her be leading a rebel force that tries to stop the dark influence of Sauron on the Numenoreans, someone fighting to take back their agency, someone who stood up for what they believe after being forced into these situations. Can even play it as a behind the scenes fighting with Pharazan trying to figure out who/find proof its her, and her having to play cat and mouse and keep him away as she tries to save her people.

[Triceron]

It’s ridiculous that so many people argue for her being nothing but a static character. Portrayed in this show exactly in the same way she is presented thousands of years later. That’s not interesting in the least bit.

Absolutely no one has made that argument, lol.

Even Galadriel in the books, depicted in the Second Age, was not a static character. Not exactly sure how you jumped to this conclusion for what people want to see of the character.

If you're doing a direct reply to me, my criticisms have been squarely on the lack of properly establishing a relatable character out of Galadriel. Even a simple revenge plot doesn't often undermine the main character by first introducing them having their actions questioned at every given decision. I can totally understand if you're trying to explain that there is a larger character arc at play and we'd see more of her change over the course of the series, but my point is that if they don't establish a relatable main character in the first 20 minutes of the film then it doesn't matter what character arc they present because they're losing the interest of the wider audience by frontlining this series with an unrelatable lead.

I make many comparisons to other movies that have characters bent on revenge whose stories are executed correctly by properly establishing character motives and hinting at their abilities. John Wick is a good example how to establish a character without even having to show him fight. His reputation is established through the bad guys expressing their fear of him and what he is capable of. That is enough to jump straight into the house fight scenes and really let him do his thing.

That's all we needed for Galadriel's character. Preferrably in a way that also shows off her leadership skills, not just how well she carries the team.

As for making this character a completely new one, I think that would have been a better option since it adds some stakes and tension. Being Galadriel immediately gives her plot armor because everyone knows how significant of a character she is to the story. No matter what they do to her we know she won't die, and the stakes wouldn't be the same as if it were a completely new character. I think that's what worked better for Arondir than with Galadriel. Even though she was facing bigger stakes, I never felt like she was ever at risk knowing what they have in store for her. With Arondir, it feels a lot more mysterious since we don't have any preconceptions on how the character fits the greater narrative.

It would be just as jarring if Elrond were written into the Arondir role, being the one put into a sticky situation hunting down orcs and delving into scary tunnels. It wouldn't fit his character either, and knowing it's Elrond, all of the 'jump scare' moments wouldn't be as impactful, knowing he's gonna come out of it just fine.

Despite being shown as a Herald and potential political leader, we still know he will end up taking a sword and going straight into the fight by the time of the War of the Last Alliance anyways, and it's good that they don't have to shoe-horn that into his story. His character arc doesn't need to be filled with life-threatening situations just to keep the show interesting. I'm not quite sure why they think it appropriate for Galadriel.

[jackofwind]

Which is exactly what I am criticizing that Galadriel lacked. A simple montage of her using her sword before the troll fight would have worked. We needed some information for what characters we're dealing with. We have absolutely no idea what level of fighting capability Galadriel and her company has prior to the Snow Troll fight. The snow troll IMO should have been a fight that was built up to through information we have on the characters or through scenes that presented how they fight, not be the point that first establishes their fighting prowess.

Have you considered that maybe the snow troll was just kind of a pussy bitch compared to Galadriel?

She has to kill something to demonstrate the level of her fighting capability, and evidently that something is a snow troll.

It's just a snow troll.

[Triceron]

Have you considered that maybe the snow troll was just kind of a pussy bitch compared to Galadriel?

She has to kill something to demonstrate the level of her fighting capability, and evidently that something is a snow troll.

It's just a snow troll.

See, if that's the case, then her troops are even shittier than a pussy-bitch, and it goes to question why the fuck she even needs them in the first place.

By the show's own logic, let em go the fuck home cuz Galadriel has been shown to be the only capable character of the bunch. She suffers no signs of fatigue, she's able to sherlock her way into an enemy fortress, she single-handedly takes down a pussy-bitch troll...

I mean, what is the point of her even going back with her group? By the end of the episode she ends abandoning them and swimming back to Middle Earth alone anyways. She's going to look for Sauron on her own, with or without the help of her people. We literally spend an entire episode circling back to her character being exactly the way she was at the beginning, this time not being held back by her company.

[Hansworst]

Maybe they were expandable? That's why they were allowed to join her?

[Triceron]

Maybe they were expandable? That's why they were allowed to join her?

Yet they end up holding her back and being the reason why she's forced to abandon her quest. That's the opposite of expendable, that's more like babysitting.

[Syegfryed]

Have you considered that maybe the snow troll was just kind of a pussy bitch compared to Galadriel?

She has to kill something to demonstrate the level of her fighting capability, and evidently that something is a snow troll.

It's just a snow troll.

That the case isn't? the troll should be a bitch compared to 7-8-9 elves, especially at that age, especially knowing they were an elite squad sent to hunt Sauron, buut they were awful.

Yeah, they had to make her kill something to show her capability, the problem is not what happened, is how it happened, the writers could not make a situation that show that without making everyone else fucking lame.

Same way they can't write her to be intelligent, they had to make everyone else a dumbass, and that is not Galadriel fault, she is supposed to be stronger and wiser than the average elf, it's the writer's fault for not being able to write her like that

[Kumorii]

Biggest problem, beyond the awful choreography, is indeed the other elfs being useless.

No idea how someone could look at the scene and think it's good enough to be released.
Feels like they tried to fix it in edit. Hence the awkward cuts that ruins the flow.

[StillMcfuu]

That the case isn't? the troll should be a bitch compared to 7-8-9 elves, especially at that age, especially knowing they were an elite squad sent to hunt Sauron, buut they were awful.

Yeah, they had to make her kill something to show her capability, the problem is not what happened, is how it happened, the writers could not make a situation that show that without making everyone else fucking lame.

Same way they can't write her to be intelligent, they had to make everyone else a dumbass, and that is not Galadriel fault, she is supposed to be stronger and wiser than the average elf, it's the writer's fault for not being able to write her like that

Bad writing aside;
Not all elves are all powerful. This is a bit of an LotR issue (books and movies) because the main Elf we are exposed to is Legolas and he is exceptional.
In Tolkien lore, Galadriel is many levels above Legolas, but it doesn't mean the elves she is with would be as well. They gave no indication that the troop she was with were anything more than just regular elves.
As you said though its more of a writing issue, it's fair that Galadriel could solo a troll, it took most of the fellowship to down their troll, but these elves aren't at the same ability level as Legolas, Gimli, Aragon, and Boromir. It's more a problem of portraying Galadriel better vs just making everyone else look stupid. At least they survived getting absolutely pummeled.

[Cynical Asshole]

I loved the part where Sauron said "It's saurin' time!".

[jackofwind]

See, if that's the case, then her troops are even shittier than a pussy-bitch, and it goes to question why the fuck she even needs them in the first place.

By the show's own logic, let em go the fuck home cuz Galadriel has been shown to be the only capable character of the bunch. She suffers no signs of fatigue, she's able to sherlock her way into an enemy fortress, she single-handedly takes down a pussy-bitch troll...

I mean, what is the point of her even going back with her group? By the end of the episode she ends abandoning them and swimming back to Middle Earth alone anyways. She's going to look for Sauron on her own, with or without the help of her people. We literally spend an entire episode circling back to her character being exactly the way she was at the beginning, this time not being held back by her company.

So maybe her troops are shitty. Maybe she doesn't need them. Maybe it's you who is silly for thinking they're anything more than a band of -normal- elves. Not all elves are superheroes - that's why they literally have superhero/mythical figures within their culture that regular/average elves are in awe of. Tolkien's works don't tend to deal much with the average elves, it's mostly notable lore characters who are all much more powerful. There are obviously much more normal elves, and Galadriel's prowess sets her apart from them.

Maybe she wants to go back with her group because she likes them as people (elves), not because of their martial prowess. You know, the way that a normal person wouldn't just abandon their friends because they're not as strong as they are.

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Bad writing aside;
Not all elves are all powerful. This is a bit of an LotR issue (books and movies) because the main Elf we are exposed to is Legolas and he is exceptional.
In Tolkien lore, Galadriel is many levels above Legolas, but it doesn't mean the elves she is with would be as well. They gave no indication that the troop she was with were anything more than just regular elves.
As you said though its more of a writing issue, it's fair that Galadriel could solo a troll, it took most of the fellowship to down their troll, but these elves aren't at the same ability level as Legolas, Gimli, Aragon, and Boromir. It's more a problem of portraying Galadriel better vs just making everyone else look stupid. At least they survived getting absolutely pummeled.

This. The writing may be bad, but the elves we typically see in Tolkien's writing and in the adaptations are heroic figures - not the average elf.

It's movie-only, but look at Haldir's elves at Helm's Deep - there are some of them who die to the very first Uruk that attacks them. They're just soldiers, they're not all heroes. Shit, even super powerful and heroic figures in canonical Tolkien die to weak shit, like Isildur being shot by some random orc archers while wading out of the Anduin.

[Koriani]

GoT = skyrim as a soap opera is my favourite take ^^

HA SAME!

And not /that/ far off really - except I can't think of a single actual "soap opera" written half as well or with half-as-interesting characters. So I'd say "think of the best written soap opera you could ever see... in Skyrim.." =D

But as someone who refuses to go back and watch Breaking Bad, I also won't slight anyone who's just not interested in "catching up" with a lapsed tv show, no matter how 'good' it may be. (And I love Better Call Saul so go figure my logic out on that one .) Its only to do with the fact its an expired show and I'm not all into going back and watching 'old shows' - I've got enough to watch already.

But I will say in GoT's defense - its got way stronger writing than any actual soap opera. So if you DO like Fantasy series, and looking for something to watch, it IS one of the few quality options out there, in ALL of television. (Because tv doesn't have very many fantasy genre shows, and even less that are well done.)

[Triceron]

So maybe her troops are shitty. Maybe she doesn't need them. Maybe it's you who is silly for thinking they're anything more than a band of -normal- elves.

But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.

There are obviously much more normal elves, and Galadriel's prowess sets her apart from them.

Sure, no one's contesting that. My point is they never established this skill gap prior to the fight with the snow troll. This undermines any sensible narrative reason for her to even need a company of Elves given that the show establishes them being nothing more than an obstacle and nuisance to her. This is even reinforced by the fact she literally goes solo by the end of the episode.

Maybe she wants to go back with her group because she likes them as people (elves), not because of their martial prowess. You know, the way that a normal person wouldn't just abandon their friends because they're not as strong as they are.

Then that would be assuming something not shown in the narrative, and that's a big fucking fail if you have to ask yourself so many Maybe's just to make sense of poor writing.

If she cared about the wellbeing of her troops then there's no reason for her to choose to press on until given an ultimatum. It'd be quite a stretch to assume she 'came to her senses and started caring about her troops' when the story shows nothing to even remotely suggest that happening.

[Koriani]

Can't say I've heard any praise of the elephant scene, nor the shield sliding scenes. Most ridicule them.

And what's really amusing is these exact same points came up already in the discussion about 50-100 pages ago.

Outside of the posts ACTUALLY DISCUSSING the released episodes - there's not a SINGLE POINT being made otherwise that hasn't been already talked about at least twice already in the last 200 pages. So no, really, there are people here who REFUSE to let it go and are LITERALLY now arguing in circles making the exact same arguments, 'smart points' about race/environment/biology/wtfever that were made 50+ pages ago as if they are "new points" no one else has mentioned.

Some of these same 'biological' 'real world' comparison arguments have been made almost every 15 pages. Its...hilarious that any of these people think they're making ANY of these points for the first time in the thread. When all it really does is show me how many people here don't bother to read even 5 pages back before they post.

--Someone who's actually read all 209 pages of this thread (and still reading, every page).

[Kumorii]

And what's really amusing is these exact same points came up already in the discussion about 50-100 pages ago.

Outside of the posts ACTUALLY DISCUSSING the released episodes - there's not a SINGLE POINT being made otherwise that hasn't been already talked about at least twice already in the last 200 pages. So no, really, there are people here who REFUSE to let it go and are LITERALLY now arguing in circles making the exact same arguments, 'smart points' about race/environment/biology/wtfever that were made 50+ pages ago as if they are "new points" no one else has mentioned.

Some of these same 'biological' 'real world' comparison arguments have been made almost every 15 pages. Its...hilarious that any of these people think they're making ANY of these points for the first time in the thread. When all it really does is show me how many people here don't bother to read even 5 pages back before they post.

--Someone who's actually read all 209 pages of this thread (and still reading, every page).

That's just MMOC for you.
Almost every single thread boils down to the same few posters circling the arguments.
And usually when it dies down, then some random person comes in and reply so it starts again.

[Veggie50]

HA SAME!

And not /that/ far off really - except I can't think of a single actual "soap opera" written half as well or with half-as-interesting characters. So I'd say "think of the best written soap opera you could ever see... in Skyrim.." =D

But as someone who refuses to go back and watch Breaking Bad, I also won't slight anyone who's just not interested in "catching up" with a lapsed tv show, no matter how 'good' it may be. (And I love Better Call Saul so go figure my logic out on that one .) Its only to do with the fact its an expired show and I'm not all into going back and watching 'old shows' - I've got enough to watch already.

But I will say in GoT's defense - its got way stronger writing than any actual soap opera. So if you DO like Fantasy series, and looking for something to watch, it IS one of the few quality options out there, in ALL of television. (Because tv doesn't have very many fantasy genre shows, and even less that are well done.)

You love better call saul... but haven't watched breaking bad? Oh man are you missing out... o.O Not in the least on a lot of saul goodness

OT: with regards to the circular arguing about tokenism in the show... Yea the people burning the show down cuz of "token black characters" who "don't realistically fit into the setting" are annoying, and repetitive... but so are our counterpoints =P

We're throwing the same things out there, and recieving the same responses. Just the way the world works. We can only hope that slowly, over time, people change their mind just a little.

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But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.



Sure, no one's contesting that. My point is they never established this skill gap prior to the fight with the snow troll. This undermines any sensible narrative reason for her to even need a company of Elves given that the show establishes them being nothing more than an obstacle and nuisance to her. This is even reinforced by the fact she literally goes solo by the end of the episode.



Then that would be assuming something not shown in the narrative, and that's a big fucking fail if you have to ask yourself so many Maybe's just to make sense of poor writing.

If she cared about the wellbeing of her troops then there's no reason for her to choose to press on until given an ultimatum. It'd be quite a stretch to assume she 'came to her senses and started caring about her troops' when the story shows nothing to even remotely suggest that happening.

I don't think the show is intending to show Galadriel as such a "superior fighter" at all... Sure she downed the ice troll, but only with the help of her men. The moves she used to do so are nothing out of the ordinary for elves we have seen in other iterations.

What the show does present, is that she became a leader among her people. That doesn't require more cladding than what was shown in the prologue.

[Kumorii]

I don't think the show is intending to show Galadriel as such a "superior fighter" at all... Sure she downed the ice troll, but only with the help of her men. The moves she used to do so are nothing out of the ordinary for elves we have seen in other iterations.

What the show does present, is that she became a leader among her people. That doesn't require more cladding than what was shown in the prologue.

They did absolutely nothing... they got smashed.
Arguably the one "tossing" her helped, but that wasn't even necessary for her to defeat the troll. If so, 1 elf helped her.