Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

It’s ridiculous that so many people argue for her being nothing but a static character. Portrayed in this show exactly in the same way she is presented thousands of years later. That’s not interesting in the least bit.

Absolutely no one has made that argument, lol.

Even Galadriel in the books, depicted in the Second Age, was not a static character. Not exactly sure how you jumped to this conclusion for what people want to see of the character.

If you're doing a direct reply to me, my criticisms have been squarely on the lack of properly establishing a relatable character out of Galadriel. Even a simple revenge plot doesn't often undermine the main character by first introducing them having their actions questioned at every given decision. I can totally understand if you're trying to explain that there is a larger character arc at play and we'd see more of her change over the course of the series, but my point is that if they don't establish a relatable main character in the first 20 minutes of the film then it doesn't matter what character arc they present because they're losing the interest of the wider audience by frontlining this series with an unrelatable lead.

I make many comparisons to other movies that have characters bent on revenge whose stories are executed correctly by properly establishing character motives and hinting at their abilities. John Wick is a good example how to establish a character without even having to show him fight. His reputation is established through the bad guys expressing their fear of him and what he is capable of. That is enough to jump straight into the house fight scenes and really let him do his thing.

That's all we needed for Galadriel's character. Preferrably in a way that also shows off her leadership skills, not just how well she carries the team.

As for making this character a completely new one, I think that would have been a better option since it adds some stakes and tension. Being Galadriel immediately gives her plot armor because everyone knows how significant of a character she is to the story. No matter what they do to her we know she won't die, and the stakes wouldn't be the same as if it were a completely new character. I think that's what worked better for Arondir than with Galadriel. Even though she was facing bigger stakes, I never felt like she was ever at risk knowing what they have in store for her. With Arondir, it feels a lot more mysterious since we don't have any preconceptions on how the character fits the greater narrative.

It would be just as jarring if Elrond were written into the Arondir role, being the one put into a sticky situation hunting down orcs and delving into scary tunnels. It wouldn't fit his character either, and knowing it's Elrond, all of the 'jump scare' moments wouldn't be as impactful, knowing he's gonna come out of it just fine.

Despite being shown as a Herald and potential political leader, we still know he will end up taking a sword and going straight into the fight by the time of the War of the Last Alliance anyways, and it's good that they don't have to shoe-horn that into his story. His character arc doesn't need to be filled with life-threatening situations just to keep the show interesting. I'm not quite sure why they think it appropriate for Galadriel.

[jackofwind]

Which is exactly what I am criticizing that Galadriel lacked. A simple montage of her using her sword before the troll fight would have worked. We needed some information for what characters we're dealing with. We have absolutely no idea what level of fighting capability Galadriel and her company has prior to the Snow Troll fight. The snow troll IMO should have been a fight that was built up to through information we have on the characters or through scenes that presented how they fight, not be the point that first establishes their fighting prowess.

Have you considered that maybe the snow troll was just kind of a pussy bitch compared to Galadriel?

She has to kill something to demonstrate the level of her fighting capability, and evidently that something is a snow troll.

It's just a snow troll.

[Triceron]

Have you considered that maybe the snow troll was just kind of a pussy bitch compared to Galadriel?

She has to kill something to demonstrate the level of her fighting capability, and evidently that something is a snow troll.

It's just a snow troll.

See, if that's the case, then her troops are even shittier than a pussy-bitch, and it goes to question why the fuck she even needs them in the first place.

By the show's own logic, let em go the fuck home cuz Galadriel has been shown to be the only capable character of the bunch. She suffers no signs of fatigue, she's able to sherlock her way into an enemy fortress, she single-handedly takes down a pussy-bitch troll...

I mean, what is the point of her even going back with her group? By the end of the episode she ends abandoning them and swimming back to Middle Earth alone anyways. She's going to look for Sauron on her own, with or without the help of her people. We literally spend an entire episode circling back to her character being exactly the way she was at the beginning, this time not being held back by her company.

[Hansworst]

Maybe they were expandable? That's why they were allowed to join her?

[Triceron]

Maybe they were expandable? That's why they were allowed to join her?

Yet they end up holding her back and being the reason why she's forced to abandon her quest. That's the opposite of expendable, that's more like babysitting.

[Syegfryed]

Have you considered that maybe the snow troll was just kind of a pussy bitch compared to Galadriel?

She has to kill something to demonstrate the level of her fighting capability, and evidently that something is a snow troll.

It's just a snow troll.

That the case isn't? the troll should be a bitch compared to 7-8-9 elves, especially at that age, especially knowing they were an elite squad sent to hunt Sauron, buut they were awful.

Yeah, they had to make her kill something to show her capability, the problem is not what happened, is how it happened, the writers could not make a situation that show that without making everyone else fucking lame.

Same way they can't write her to be intelligent, they had to make everyone else a dumbass, and that is not Galadriel fault, she is supposed to be stronger and wiser than the average elf, it's the writer's fault for not being able to write her like that

[Kumorii]

Biggest problem, beyond the awful choreography, is indeed the other elfs being useless.

No idea how someone could look at the scene and think it's good enough to be released.
Feels like they tried to fix it in edit. Hence the awkward cuts that ruins the flow.

[StillMcfuu]

That the case isn't? the troll should be a bitch compared to 7-8-9 elves, especially at that age, especially knowing they were an elite squad sent to hunt Sauron, buut they were awful.

Yeah, they had to make her kill something to show her capability, the problem is not what happened, is how it happened, the writers could not make a situation that show that without making everyone else fucking lame.

Same way they can't write her to be intelligent, they had to make everyone else a dumbass, and that is not Galadriel fault, she is supposed to be stronger and wiser than the average elf, it's the writer's fault for not being able to write her like that

Bad writing aside;
Not all elves are all powerful. This is a bit of an LotR issue (books and movies) because the main Elf we are exposed to is Legolas and he is exceptional.
In Tolkien lore, Galadriel is many levels above Legolas, but it doesn't mean the elves she is with would be as well. They gave no indication that the troop she was with were anything more than just regular elves.
As you said though its more of a writing issue, it's fair that Galadriel could solo a troll, it took most of the fellowship to down their troll, but these elves aren't at the same ability level as Legolas, Gimli, Aragon, and Boromir. It's more a problem of portraying Galadriel better vs just making everyone else look stupid. At least they survived getting absolutely pummeled.

[Cynical Asshole]

I loved the part where Sauron said "It's saurin' time!".

[jackofwind]

See, if that's the case, then her troops are even shittier than a pussy-bitch, and it goes to question why the fuck she even needs them in the first place.

By the show's own logic, let em go the fuck home cuz Galadriel has been shown to be the only capable character of the bunch. She suffers no signs of fatigue, she's able to sherlock her way into an enemy fortress, she single-handedly takes down a pussy-bitch troll...

I mean, what is the point of her even going back with her group? By the end of the episode she ends abandoning them and swimming back to Middle Earth alone anyways. She's going to look for Sauron on her own, with or without the help of her people. We literally spend an entire episode circling back to her character being exactly the way she was at the beginning, this time not being held back by her company.

So maybe her troops are shitty. Maybe she doesn't need them. Maybe it's you who is silly for thinking they're anything more than a band of -normal- elves. Not all elves are superheroes - that's why they literally have superhero/mythical figures within their culture that regular/average elves are in awe of. Tolkien's works don't tend to deal much with the average elves, it's mostly notable lore characters who are all much more powerful. There are obviously much more normal elves, and Galadriel's prowess sets her apart from them.

Maybe she wants to go back with her group because she likes them as people (elves), not because of their martial prowess. You know, the way that a normal person wouldn't just abandon their friends because they're not as strong as they are.

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Bad writing aside;
Not all elves are all powerful. This is a bit of an LotR issue (books and movies) because the main Elf we are exposed to is Legolas and he is exceptional.
In Tolkien lore, Galadriel is many levels above Legolas, but it doesn't mean the elves she is with would be as well. They gave no indication that the troop she was with were anything more than just regular elves.
As you said though its more of a writing issue, it's fair that Galadriel could solo a troll, it took most of the fellowship to down their troll, but these elves aren't at the same ability level as Legolas, Gimli, Aragon, and Boromir. It's more a problem of portraying Galadriel better vs just making everyone else look stupid. At least they survived getting absolutely pummeled.

This. The writing may be bad, but the elves we typically see in Tolkien's writing and in the adaptations are heroic figures - not the average elf.

It's movie-only, but look at Haldir's elves at Helm's Deep - there are some of them who die to the very first Uruk that attacks them. They're just soldiers, they're not all heroes. Shit, even super powerful and heroic figures in canonical Tolkien die to weak shit, like Isildur being shot by some random orc archers while wading out of the Anduin.

[Koriani]

GoT = skyrim as a soap opera is my favourite take ^^

HA SAME!

And not /that/ far off really - except I can't think of a single actual "soap opera" written half as well or with half-as-interesting characters. So I'd say "think of the best written soap opera you could ever see... in Skyrim.." =D

But as someone who refuses to go back and watch Breaking Bad, I also won't slight anyone who's just not interested in "catching up" with a lapsed tv show, no matter how 'good' it may be. (And I love Better Call Saul so go figure my logic out on that one .) Its only to do with the fact its an expired show and I'm not all into going back and watching 'old shows' - I've got enough to watch already.

But I will say in GoT's defense - its got way stronger writing than any actual soap opera. So if you DO like Fantasy series, and looking for something to watch, it IS one of the few quality options out there, in ALL of television. (Because tv doesn't have very many fantasy genre shows, and even less that are well done.)

[Triceron]

So maybe her troops are shitty. Maybe she doesn't need them. Maybe it's you who is silly for thinking they're anything more than a band of -normal- elves.

But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.

There are obviously much more normal elves, and Galadriel's prowess sets her apart from them.

Sure, no one's contesting that. My point is they never established this skill gap prior to the fight with the snow troll. This undermines any sensible narrative reason for her to even need a company of Elves given that the show establishes them being nothing more than an obstacle and nuisance to her. This is even reinforced by the fact she literally goes solo by the end of the episode.

Maybe she wants to go back with her group because she likes them as people (elves), not because of their martial prowess. You know, the way that a normal person wouldn't just abandon their friends because they're not as strong as they are.

Then that would be assuming something not shown in the narrative, and that's a big fucking fail if you have to ask yourself so many Maybe's just to make sense of poor writing.

If she cared about the wellbeing of her troops then there's no reason for her to choose to press on until given an ultimatum. It'd be quite a stretch to assume she 'came to her senses and started caring about her troops' when the story shows nothing to even remotely suggest that happening.

[Koriani]

Can't say I've heard any praise of the elephant scene, nor the shield sliding scenes. Most ridicule them.

And what's really amusing is these exact same points came up already in the discussion about 50-100 pages ago.

Outside of the posts ACTUALLY DISCUSSING the released episodes - there's not a SINGLE POINT being made otherwise that hasn't been already talked about at least twice already in the last 200 pages. So no, really, there are people here who REFUSE to let it go and are LITERALLY now arguing in circles making the exact same arguments, 'smart points' about race/environment/biology/wtfever that were made 50+ pages ago as if they are "new points" no one else has mentioned.

Some of these same 'biological' 'real world' comparison arguments have been made almost every 15 pages. Its...hilarious that any of these people think they're making ANY of these points for the first time in the thread. When all it really does is show me how many people here don't bother to read even 5 pages back before they post.

--Someone who's actually read all 209 pages of this thread (and still reading, every page).

[Kumorii]

And what's really amusing is these exact same points came up already in the discussion about 50-100 pages ago.

Outside of the posts ACTUALLY DISCUSSING the released episodes - there's not a SINGLE POINT being made otherwise that hasn't been already talked about at least twice already in the last 200 pages. So no, really, there are people here who REFUSE to let it go and are LITERALLY now arguing in circles making the exact same arguments, 'smart points' about race/environment/biology/wtfever that were made 50+ pages ago as if they are "new points" no one else has mentioned.

Some of these same 'biological' 'real world' comparison arguments have been made almost every 15 pages. Its...hilarious that any of these people think they're making ANY of these points for the first time in the thread. When all it really does is show me how many people here don't bother to read even 5 pages back before they post.

--Someone who's actually read all 209 pages of this thread (and still reading, every page).

That's just MMOC for you.
Almost every single thread boils down to the same few posters circling the arguments.
And usually when it dies down, then some random person comes in and reply so it starts again.

[Veggie50]

HA SAME!

And not /that/ far off really - except I can't think of a single actual "soap opera" written half as well or with half-as-interesting characters. So I'd say "think of the best written soap opera you could ever see... in Skyrim.." =D

But as someone who refuses to go back and watch Breaking Bad, I also won't slight anyone who's just not interested in "catching up" with a lapsed tv show, no matter how 'good' it may be. (And I love Better Call Saul so go figure my logic out on that one .) Its only to do with the fact its an expired show and I'm not all into going back and watching 'old shows' - I've got enough to watch already.

But I will say in GoT's defense - its got way stronger writing than any actual soap opera. So if you DO like Fantasy series, and looking for something to watch, it IS one of the few quality options out there, in ALL of television. (Because tv doesn't have very many fantasy genre shows, and even less that are well done.)

You love better call saul... but haven't watched breaking bad? Oh man are you missing out... o.O Not in the least on a lot of saul goodness

OT: with regards to the circular arguing about tokenism in the show... Yea the people burning the show down cuz of "token black characters" who "don't realistically fit into the setting" are annoying, and repetitive... but so are our counterpoints =P

We're throwing the same things out there, and recieving the same responses. Just the way the world works. We can only hope that slowly, over time, people change their mind just a little.

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But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.



Sure, no one's contesting that. My point is they never established this skill gap prior to the fight with the snow troll. This undermines any sensible narrative reason for her to even need a company of Elves given that the show establishes them being nothing more than an obstacle and nuisance to her. This is even reinforced by the fact she literally goes solo by the end of the episode.



Then that would be assuming something not shown in the narrative, and that's a big fucking fail if you have to ask yourself so many Maybe's just to make sense of poor writing.

If she cared about the wellbeing of her troops then there's no reason for her to choose to press on until given an ultimatum. It'd be quite a stretch to assume she 'came to her senses and started caring about her troops' when the story shows nothing to even remotely suggest that happening.

I don't think the show is intending to show Galadriel as such a "superior fighter" at all... Sure she downed the ice troll, but only with the help of her men. The moves she used to do so are nothing out of the ordinary for elves we have seen in other iterations.

What the show does present, is that she became a leader among her people. That doesn't require more cladding than what was shown in the prologue.

[Kumorii]

I don't think the show is intending to show Galadriel as such a "superior fighter" at all... Sure she downed the ice troll, but only with the help of her men. The moves she used to do so are nothing out of the ordinary for elves we have seen in other iterations.

What the show does present, is that she became a leader among her people. That doesn't require more cladding than what was shown in the prologue.

They did absolutely nothing... they got smashed.
Arguably the one "tossing" her helped, but that wasn't even necessary for her to defeat the troll. If so, 1 elf helped her.

[Veggie50]

They did absolutely nothing... they got smashed.
Arguably the one "tossing" her helped, but that wasn't even necessary for her to defeat the troll. If so, 1 elf helped her.

I suppose a lot in this scene depends on what you’re trying to see.

[Kumorii]

I suppose a lot in this scene depends on what you’re trying to see.

Weird way to look at scenes if you do it like that... explains it though.

[Dhrizzle]

But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.

This is the scene that establishes Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.

[jackofwind]

But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.

Does killing a snow troll when no one else can not do that?

Like I get it, you think it's moved too fast and not established her abilities enough...but we're two episodes in and her prowess is literally being established via the very thing you hate. For some reason a snow troll is like a big breakpoint for you? Or did you want a piece of throwaway dialogue that just explains it?