1. #4161
    Quote Originally Posted by Koriani View Post
    HA SAME!

    And not /that/ far off really - except I can't think of a single actual "soap opera" written half as well or with half-as-interesting characters. So I'd say "think of the best written soap opera you could ever see... in Skyrim.." =D

    But as someone who refuses to go back and watch Breaking Bad, I also won't slight anyone who's just not interested in "catching up" with a lapsed tv show, no matter how 'good' it may be. (And I love Better Call Saul so go figure my logic out on that one .) Its only to do with the fact its an expired show and I'm not all into going back and watching 'old shows' - I've got enough to watch already.

    But I will say in GoT's defense - its got way stronger writing than any actual soap opera. So if you DO like Fantasy series, and looking for something to watch, it IS one of the few quality options out there, in ALL of television. (Because tv doesn't have very many fantasy genre shows, and even less that are well done.)
    You love better call saul... but haven't watched breaking bad? Oh man are you missing out... o.O Not in the least on a lot of saul goodness

    OT: with regards to the circular arguing about tokenism in the show... Yea the people burning the show down cuz of "token black characters" who "don't realistically fit into the setting" are annoying, and repetitive... but so are our counterpoints =P

    We're throwing the same things out there, and recieving the same responses. Just the way the world works. We can only hope that slowly, over time, people change their mind just a little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.



    Sure, no one's contesting that. My point is they never established this skill gap prior to the fight with the snow troll. This undermines any sensible narrative reason for her to even need a company of Elves given that the show establishes them being nothing more than an obstacle and nuisance to her. This is even reinforced by the fact she literally goes solo by the end of the episode.



    Then that would be assuming something not shown in the narrative, and that's a big fucking fail if you have to ask yourself so many Maybe's just to make sense of poor writing.

    If she cared about the wellbeing of her troops then there's no reason for her to choose to press on until given an ultimatum. It'd be quite a stretch to assume she 'came to her senses and started caring about her troops' when the story shows nothing to even remotely suggest that happening.
    I don't think the show is intending to show Galadriel as such a "superior fighter" at all... Sure she downed the ice troll, but only with the help of her men. The moves she used to do so are nothing out of the ordinary for elves we have seen in other iterations.

    What the show does present, is that she became a leader among her people. That doesn't require more cladding than what was shown in the prologue.
    Last edited by Veggie50; 2022-09-07 at 09:13 PM.

  2. #4162
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I don't think the show is intending to show Galadriel as such a "superior fighter" at all... Sure she downed the ice troll, but only with the help of her men. The moves she used to do so are nothing out of the ordinary for elves we have seen in other iterations.

    What the show does present, is that she became a leader among her people. That doesn't require more cladding than what was shown in the prologue.
    They did absolutely nothing... they got smashed.
    Arguably the one "tossing" her helped, but that wasn't even necessary for her to defeat the troll. If so, 1 elf helped her.

  3. #4163
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    They did absolutely nothing... they got smashed.
    Arguably the one "tossing" her helped, but that wasn't even necessary for her to defeat the troll. If so, 1 elf helped her.
    I suppose a lot in this scene depends on what you’re trying to see.

  4. #4164
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I suppose a lot in this scene depends on what you’re trying to see.
    Weird way to look at scenes if you do it like that... explains it though.

  5. #4165
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.
    This is the scene that establishes Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.

  6. #4166
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But that's actually my point. The story literally outlines that they're nothing more than normal Elves, and for an unexplained reason Galadriel is established as being superior to them all for reasons unknown. My argument was that even if you wanted to assume they were anything but a band of normal Elves, there isn't anything in the show to support it. There has been literally no time spent to establish Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.
    Does killing a snow troll when no one else can not do that?

    Like I get it, you think it's moved too fast and not established her abilities enough...but we're two episodes in and her prowess is literally being established via the very thing you hate. For some reason a snow troll is like a big breakpoint for you? Or did you want a piece of throwaway dialogue that just explains it?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  7. #4167
    Quote Originally Posted by Veggie50 View Post
    I don't think the show is intending to show Galadriel as such a "superior fighter" at all... Sure she downed the ice troll, but only with the help of her men.
    Aside from the springboard, what exactly did they help with? Is there some extended cut where they actually helped that I'm missing here?

    What the show does present, is that she became a leader among her people. That doesn't require more cladding than what was shown in the prologue.
    Yes but then the show quickly undermined that all by presenting her as an irrational leader who had no care about her troops wellbeing. So what exactly does that serve?

    My criticism is how the show's narrative is all over the place in trying to portray her as a revenge-driven, capable fighter type character who is supposed to be well respected by her peers. And yet the 20 minute introduction with her company shows little-to-no leadership skills, with her merely barking orders and taking matters into her own hand. And it gets so bad that her troops give her an ultimatum to leave with or without her.

    So whatever leadership they're trying to establish, the first 20 minutes squanders with its actual story. I'm not sure how to take this any other way, and how anyone could see this as an example of a good leader. The only point this show made was that she was right about the evil still existing in the world, and everything came at the cost of her forsaking her duty as a good leader and taking care of her troops first and foremost. I mean, she isn't even a good leader in being dutiful, because they literally explain she's been defying the king's order to return for months now. The only reason she doesn't get reprimanded is literally because of plot armor.

  8. #4168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    This is the scene that establishes Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.
    I mean, yeah. Exactly this.

    Otherwise the argument becomes cyclical and goes all the way back to telling the entire story of her training and how she overcame every slightly more difficult challenge until she killed her first orc, and then from there how she farmed 1000 orcs to unlock troll-slayer tier.

    It's like asking for the filler episode Sword Art Online treatment in a blockbuster show.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  9. #4169
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    This is the scene that establishes Galadriel as a competent fighter who is well beyond the skill level of her troops.
    And like I said, the irrevocable result is it also establishes that her troops are so worthless that one could question why she needs them in the first place.

    And by the end of the episode, she literally abandons them to go off on her own anyways, vindicating the idea that she should have just dumped the dead weight and continued doing her thing since she was gonna do that anyways by the end of the show. At least she wouldn't be wasting her time swimming back to Middle Earth.

  10. #4170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So whatever leadership they're trying to establish, the first 20 minutes squanders with its actual story. I'm not sure how to take this any other way, and how anyone could see this as an example of a good leader. The only point this show made was that she was right about the evil still existing in the world, and everything came at the cost of her forsaking her duty as a good leader and taking care of her troops first and foremost. I mean, she isn't even a good leader in being dutiful, because they literally explain she's been defying the king's order to return for months now. The only reason she doesn't get reprimanded is literally because of plot armor.
    Elves have a habit in Tolkien of being both leaders of their people and also totally irrational/driven by ulterior motives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And like I said, the irrevocable result is it also establishes that her troops are so worthless that one could question why she needs them in the first place.

    And by the end of the episode, she literally abandons them to go off on her own anyways, vindicating the idea that she should have just dumped the dead weight and continued doing her thing since she was gonna do that anyways by the end of the show. At least she wouldn't be wasting her time swimming back to Middle Earth.
    Why is that a major issue for you though? They're a bunch of redshirt elves, they're not important. The intent was to set up Galadriel as a powerful figure - mission accomplished.

    Fuck, the Gondorian troops in Minas Tirith are all expertly trained and amazing fighters yet they die pathetically by the bucketful in RotK and no one bats an eye. Meanwhile the heroes are unstoppable, with even the fucking hobbits accomplishing more in combat than the average elite Gondorian soldier.

    Haldir's elves die like bitches at Helm's Deep in the movies and people don't care or think that makes them meaningless/worthless. Haldir himself has a pretty pathetic death for a heroic figure.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  11. #4171
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Does killing a snow troll when no one else can not do that?
    The snow troll dies in any way the writers want it to. That's the key thing to take away from this narrative.

    That they chose Galadriel to do it singlehandedly while the Troll is shown mopping the floors with her troops merely illustrates how inadequate her troops are, and how they're holding her back.

    It's not about whether no one could or not, because the Troll is merely an obstacle to showcase the Elves' ability in combat. And in this show, they chose to focus it all on Galadriel alone. This is their deliberate choice.

    If she is supposed to be a leader, why not have her lead her troops and show that off instead? Why not show that the Elves merely got ambushed and it was Galadriel's leadership and ability to rally her troops that changed the tides? We see Aragorn do this time and time again in the PJ movies. Not only is he a good fighter, but he gives orders to his team and trusts in their ability to get things done. Galadriel shows off none of this, merely taking things in her own hands.

    I'm not questioning the fact she took the troll down, I'm questioning why the writers thought this was the best way to showcase Galadriel and her relationship with her troops. This one scene undermines her leadership skills by showing that she's better off taking matter in her own hands instead of leading a team.

    For some reason a snow troll is like a big breakpoint for you? Or did you want a piece of throwaway dialogue that just explains it?
    Because they intend her to be a leader of a company of Elves, but in the entire 20 minutes she's literally shown to be a terrible leader.

    Watch the first 20 minutes again and just take note of her actual leadership abilities. You'll find that most of her motivations are quite irrational and indifferent to the wellbeing of her troops. The Troll fight is the point where we see how pointless the rest of her troops are to her mission, which then questions why they're still with her, or more importantly, why she's still with them. There is no narrative reason why Galadriel even needs her troops in the north, considering they couldn't even handle the first obstacle the story throws at them.

    That is the significance of the snow troll. It's the first thing we see test the team, and the result is we see that her troops are worthless, and that they've been holding Galadriel back since the very beginning of the show. If they were shown to at least be competent in something and offer a reason for Galadriel needing them to push forward, then it would be much more understandable why she bends to their ultimatum. But it's pretty clear after the fight that she doesn't need them. And the show literally illustrates this at the end when she jumps off the ship and leaves them.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-07 at 10:27 PM.

  12. #4172
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And like I said, the irrevocable result is it also establishes that her troops are so worthless that one could question why she needs them in the first place.
    Have you never played an RPG where you can focus power into one characters and use the other party members to support them? Even if one member is a more competent fighter there is almost always things other party members can do that are needed and without them the Best fighter has a much harder or impossible time.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #4173
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And like I said, the irrevocable result is it also establishes that her troops are so worthless that one could question why she needs them in the first place.
    If your argument is that anyone who isn't on the level of the hero is worthless, then heroic stories will always disappoint you.

    If Arya Stark can just swoop in and murder the Night King, why did we need all the other troops? They're all worthless, right.

    If Legolas can just jump on an olifant and snipe it down, what's the point of the entire army doing shit? WORTHLESS.

    And so on.

    That's not how it works. We don't even know how good those elven troops actually are. We know that getting ambushed by a snow troll after being half dead from exhaustion and exposure did not lend itself to them displaying overwhelming force. The hero who has been shown even before this to ignore all those things and march on driven by single-minded determination does display such force. And, mind you, does so in a way that IMMEDIATELY and WITHOUT PRIOR COORDINATION makes use of her troops in support (though in a very goofy way), which suggests that they ARE skilled and ARE accustomed to fighting, they're just running on fumes here and can't do much more than lend a hand.

    This shows nothing of how good the troops really are, because we have no basis for comparison. All we have is them vs. Galadriel, where she clearly comes out on top. As you would expect a hero to do, and as heroes are consistently treated in heroic narratives where they are stronger and more skilled than random soldiers, less affected by adverse conditions, and more determined and driven. All of which is demonstrated here in exactly that very standard, very tropey way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And by the end of the episode, she literally abandons them to go off on her own anyways, vindicating the idea that she should have just dumped the dead weight and continued doing her thing since she was gonna do that anyways.
    But that's development. You see how it was before - then you see how it is now. Showing her abandoning her support (or being abandoned by it, however you want to frame it) is very different from showing her not having any in the first place. Those are not the same thing, narratively, just because they look the same at the end. That's like saying why did you show a character getting divorced and then moving into a motel, could you not just have shown them living in a motel right away - them losing something they had MATTERS.

  14. #4174
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Watch the first 20 minutes again and just take note of her actual leadership abilities. You'll find that most of her motivations are quite irrational and indifferent to the wellbeing of her troops.
    As if that's somehow surprising for an elven leader?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  15. #4175
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Have you never played an RPG where you can focus power into one characters and use the other party members to support them? Even if one member is a more competent fighter there is almost always things other party members can do that are needed and without them the Best fighter has a much harder or impossible time.
    Yeah and usually in those RPGs, this is shown by giving the support characters some time to shine and actually, you know, support the Carry.

    Can you point me out where this actually happened in the show? Springboard dude is literally the only thing notable, and I hardly even consider that support considering Galadriel could have taken the thing down even without the help.

    There's no reason to assume the idea that the fight would have been harder without their assistance, because they never establish this in the narrative. You're comparing this to an RPG which has moments that let you experiment with the game and find out how important (or not important) the supporting characters would be. Here, we're literally given a short version that cuts out all their support, and merely shows them all when being attacked, and constantly urging the leader to return home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    As if that's somehow surprising for an elven leader?
    Doesn't matter if you consider it surprising or not.

    If you're making a point that the show already established her as a leader, then my point is that the first 20 minutes undermines her leadership capabilities and shows how terrible of a leader she ended up being in reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    If your argument is that anyone who isn't on the level of the hero is worthless, then heroic stories will always disappoint you.
    I'm not talking about 'heroic stories', I'm talking about this show.

    Is there any point you can make that actually relates to what I'm actually talking about?

    Showing her abandoning her support (or being abandoned by it, however you want to frame it) is very different from showing her not having any in the first place.
    I'm literally making the point that after the troll fight, there is no narrative reason for her to go back with her troops. That fight literally cements the idea that she doesn't need them at all. And the end of the show literally shows that she would freely abandon them anyways. With the way the first 20 minutes is written, her being back in the Elf city and taking the boat to Valinor is nothing but fluff. She could have chosen to leave her troops right after the Troll fight, and the story would be exactly the same - with her wandering Middle Earth to find Sauron.

    Right now, the whole swimming and travelling back to the shore is just a prelude to her hunt for Sauron.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-07 at 10:49 PM.

  16. #4176
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Right now, the whole swimming and travelling back to the shore is just a prelude to her hunt for Sauron.
    Entire point of the boat scene was to make the first opening statement about stones looking downward to "make sense".

  17. #4177
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    ...
    I mean of course she needs the troops, the Galadriel in the show is a complete moron. Who else but a moron would wait till they are SEVERAL HUNDRED MILES FROM LAND to jump off a ship at the gates of paradise to then try and SWIM SEVERAL HUNDRED MILES back to land with no plan. Like if they had her jump off the ship a few miles out into the journey I could have understood, but not at the literal end of the journey.

    So anyways she needs troops to tell her basic things apparently, like when someone is collapsed its time to take a break, or the guy that offered her his sword that instead of standing there for the 10-15 seconds watching her troops get blasted she should move in to kill it, and apparently you don't jump off a boat with no plans/help SEVERAL HUNDRED MILES FROM LAND.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Entire point of the boat scene was to make the first opening statement about stones looking downward to "make sense".
    Ugh it hurts more every time I think about it, just because you CAN make a metaphor doesn't mean you should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  18. #4178
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah and usually in those RPGs, this is shown by giving the support characters some time to shine and actually, you know, support the Carry.

    Can you point me out where this actually happened in the show? Springboard dude is literally the only thing notable, and I hardly even consider that support considering Galadriel could have taken the thing down even without the help.

    There's no reason to assume the idea that the fight would have been harder without their assistance, because they never establish this in the narrative. You're comparing this to an RPG which has moments that let you experiment with the game and find out how important (or not important) the supporting characters would be. Here, we're literally given a short version that cuts out all their support, and merely shows them all when being attacked, and constantly urging the leader to return home.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Doesn't matter if you consider it surprising or not.

    If you're making a point that the show already established her as a leader, then my point is that the first 20 minutes undermines her leadership capabilities and shows how terrible of a leader she ended up being in reality.
    You're confusing her being established as a leader with her being established as a "good" leader.

    You know, because she might have a character arc where she becomes a better leader as the show goes on.

    This isn't rocket appliances dude.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  19. #4179
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    You're confusing her being established as a leader with her being established as a "good" leader.

    You know, because she might have an arc where she becomes a better fucking leader.

    This isn't rocket appliances dude.
    You know what Tolkien text has her being in it? A good leader. You know what it lacks? Her being a master warrior. You want an arc where a not good leader becomes a good leader, do it to Elrond, he is young enough and has an easy/good motivation for growth (proving himself to Galadriel/courting Celebrian).

    A better Galadriel arc is taking her from being passive/watching as evil rises to being active in stopping it, and you can even give her the legitimate excuse of wanting to birth/raise her child as why she has taken a step back. Arc of reluctant hero forced into action, oldie but it still works.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-07 at 10:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  20. #4180
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post

    Ugh it hurts more every time I think about it, just because you CAN make a metaphor doesn't mean you should.
    Tell me about it. Even worse when you take a poorly made metaphor and then play it out almost literally, word for word...
    Even good metaphors should rarely be played out exactly like the metaphor.

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