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[bledgor]

Shockingly, she's younger here than when she was a good leader as per Tolkien's texts. She didn't become a good leader out of the womb, she had to get there.

Re: her being a warrior, she was a leader during the rebellion of the Noldor. Tolkien sets her apart from other female elves by saying she alone stood tall in the days of rebellion and the flight from Valinor. She probably fought. She was probably more than just a speechmaker. It's not far-fetched.

Shockingly she is still a good leader and several thousands years old so yes younger, but by not fucking means young in the 2nd age. She didn't start that way out of the womb, but she is still ONE OF THE OLDEST ELVES/BEINGS ALIVE AT THIS POINT. She acts more like a petulant child than just about anyone else.

Cool not all leaders are 1. Good Warriors 2. Good generals/leaders in war. She was never stated directly participating in any fights/wars. SHE MIGHT HAVE fought, but there is no facts that she did.

I would be completely fine with her being a mentor/council for the leaders, she has always been known as being one of the wisest/most knowledgeable beings including Maiar. IF YOU HAVE to force into fights, make it happen rarely (like 1-2 times) and make it more a metaphysical/semi-magical fight with Sauron, that would be appropriate and still show case her power.

It makes it unbelievable when you have a being recognized for her wisdom/knowledge acting like a complete moron throughout the first two episodes.

[Biomega]

I'm not talking about 'heroic stories', I'm talking about this show.

Is there any point you can make that actually relates to what I'm actually talking about?

Oh fuck off with your "not what I'm talking about" routine, this show IS a heroic narrative, whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm literally making the point that after the troll fight, there is no narrative reason for her to go back with her troops. That fight literally cements the idea that she doesn't need them at all.

What, because in ONE fight she showed that she's more determined than her troops and won't let hunger or cold slow her down, that means she can take on EVERYTHING alone?

That makes zero sense on its own, let alone with the fact that she goes back with her troops BECAUSE SHE ADMITS THEY HAVE A POINT, just like she accepts Gil-galad's reward BECAUSE SHE ADMITS HE HAS A POINT.

That's narratively important because it tells us, the viewer, that she's NOT just the misunderstood hero who has it right when the entire world has it wrong, but that she KNOWS that what she's doing is NOT how she should behave regardless of whether or not she's right about Sauron.

And the end of the show literally shows that she would freely abandon them anyways.

Not just "freely abandon", but waver to the point of GIVING IN to her desire for vengeance. She's at the cusp of finally letting go, but ultimately she can't. That is Galadriel's entire character arc in the original material: she falls prey to the same arrogance of the Noldor that took Fëanor and others of her kin, and it takes her thousands of years, all the way until her encounter with the One Ring in Lothlórien, until she can bring herself to finally say no to power for good.

This is why she DOESN'T let go. We need to know she SHOULD, hence the previous stuff, but she doesn't.

She could have chosen to leave her troops right after the Troll fight, and the story would be exactly the same - with her wandering Middle Earth to find Sauron.

This - again - is the same problem I mentioned earlier: you can't just show the same end result and pretend that the process of getting to that result didn't matter to the narrative. IT DID. It shows the viewers that she knows she's in the wrong, and that her being right about Sauron's threat is not what it's about. It's about her being unable to say no to her own impulses, something that destroyed so many of her people, and something that she herself will struggle with for millennia to come. It's why she's not worthy of returning to Valinor and SHE KNOWS IT.

Stop looking at narratives simplistically in terms of results, that's juvenile and reductive.

[Syegfryed]

Bad writing aside;
Not all elves are all powerful. This is a bit of an LotR issue (books and movies) because the main Elf we are exposed to is Legolas and he is exceptional.
In Tolkien lore, Galadriel is many levels above Legolas, but it doesn't mean the elves she is with would be as well. They gave no indication that the troop she was with were anything more than just regular elves.
As you said though its more of a writing issue, it's fair that Galadriel could solo a troll, it took most of the fellowship to down their troll, but these elves aren't at the same ability level as Legolas, Gimli, Aragon, and Boromir. It's more a problem of portraying Galadriel better vs just making everyone else look stupid. At least they survived getting absolutely pummeled.

I know not elves are not the same, but see, those elves are from the second age, and presumably, they are an elite group to fucking find Sauron, a maiar, i expect then to be Legolas level, and one troll alone clean the flor with not three or four, but seven.

While in the fellowship you only rly have 2 men, a dwarf, an elf and Gandalf versus not just a troll but a small army of orcs as well, it's not even comparable.

So maybe her troops are shitty. Maybe she doesn't need them. Maybe it's you who is silly for thinking they're anything more than a band of -normal- elves.

So, the elite group to find Sauron and escort Galadriel are just a bunch of fucking weakling dumbasess, and this makes sense how?

[Triceron]

That makes zero sense on its own, let alone with the fact that she goes back with her troops BECAUSE SHE ADMITS THEY HAVE A POINT, just like she accepts Gil-galad's reward BECAUSE SHE ADMITS HE HAS A POINT.

That's narratively important because it tells us, the viewer, that she's NOT just the misunderstood hero who has it right when the entire world has it wrong, but that she KNOWS that what she's doing is NOT how she should behave regardless of whether or not she's right about Sauron.

Which is all COMPLETELY UNDERMINED BY THE END.

Like I said, the moment she abandons her troops is the moment she abandons her troops. The entire travel back to the Elf village to show her acknowledging her doing things wrong doesn't change the fact that by the end... she does the exact same thing that she started with. What you may be implying as character development is actually character reversion, because by the end she does leave the boat, defies the orders of Gil-Galad, and still believes she is right about Sauron.

This makes her entire arc in this episode purely fluff. Her journey could start exactly after the 20-minute mark abandoning her troops, and we'd be exactly in the same spot where she is right now. Cuz you know what? By the end of the first episode, they end up establishing her as a misunderstood hero anyways. There has been zero nuance to her character before and after she leaves the Elf lands. All that's shown is she begrudgingly accepts her fate to go back to Valinor until she can't bottle her natural impulses any longer. That isn't character development.

This - again - is the same problem I mentioned earlier: you can't just show the same end result and pretend that the process of getting to that result didn't matter to the narrative. IT DID. It shows the viewers that she knows she's in the wrong, and that her being right about Sauron's threat is not what it's about. It's about her being unable to say no to her own impulses, something that destroyed so many of her people, and something that she herself will struggle with for millennia to come. It's why she's not worthy of returning to Valinor and SHE KNOWS IT.

Stop looking at narratives simplistically in terms of results, that's juvenile and reductive.

What the show establishes is counter-intuitive and a monumental waste of time, because she doesn't actually internalize ANY of what you said. It didn't show the viewers that she knows she's in the wrong, because she ISN'T in the wrong and proves it by doubling down on her instincts and jumping off the boat. It doesn't show her that being right about Sauron's thread is not what it's about - it IS EXACTLY what it's all about because again, she jumps off the boat! Everything that involved her admitting her faults is literally shown as her biting her tongue and bottling her instincts and trying to be a 'good little Elf' that Elrond expects her to be. I don't know how you interpret that as her reconsidering her actions, because she doesn't really do that at all. She is only really convinced to go at all because of Elrond.

Look at her talks with Elrond. She never admits that what she's doing is actually wrong, she ends up doubling down on her instincts. He asks 'if you are wrong' and she immediately snaps back with 'I'm not wrong'. She is the same character as what she started as. There is zero character development throughout the entire process. Yes, she admits some failings - adding more Elf carvings to the forest, or not heeding the call to Valinor - but the story doesn't need to be completely circular and have her on the boats to Valinor to accomplish this. She could literally be wandering Middle Earth and facing some obstacle on her own, without her troops or without the aid of her people, and still reflect on her faults and failings while still redoubling her need to push on and find Sauron.

As for being unworthy of Valinor, I'd say that's a really interesting interpretation, but definitely one I don't think the show illustrated properly if intentional. I don't think her motivations to return to Middle Earth are motivated by being unworthy at all, and while that's a really interesting proposition that I hadn't considered, I don't fully agree that her character was motivated by these reasons. The whole stones and touching darkness thing seemed like she's more motivated to get to the root of the problem and, it makes more sense to imply that she's a slave to her impulses and the need for revenge/justice more than her feeling unworthy to return to her lands. At most, she says she won't be at peace, not that she doesn't deserve to go back.

[Syegfryed]

As for being unworthy of Valinor, I'd say that's a really interesting interpretation, but definitely one I don't think the show illustrated properly if intentional. I don't think her motivations to return to Middle Earth are motivated by being unworthy at all, and while that's a really interesting proposition that I hadn't considered, I don't fully agree that her character was motivated by these reasons. The whole stones and touching darkness thing seemed like she's more motivated to get to the root of the problem and, it makes more sense to imply that she's a slave to her impulses and the need for revenge/justice more than her feeling unworthy to return to her lands. At most, she says she won't be at peace, not that she doesn't deserve to go back.

Her being unworthy might be related to the doom of noldor, where the noldor killed the telari to get their ships, that leads to a lot of shenanigans with i think Feanor as well

But they completely erase this moment, so, can't use that with mind.

[jackofwind]

Cool not all leaders are 1. Good Warriors 2. Good generals/leaders in war. She was never stated directly participating in any fights/wars. SHE MIGHT HAVE fought, but there is no facts that she did.

There's really no facts that she did anything pre-LotR except walk around a bunch and cry about the ocean. It would be silly to assume that she only did those things.

[Biomega]

Which is all COMPLETELY UNDERMINED BY THE END.

Like I said, the moment she abandons her troops is the moment she abandons her troops. The entire travel back to the Elf village to show her acknowledging her doing things wrong doesn't change the fact that by the end... she does the exact same thing that she started with.

And as I've explained, the point isn't to change the outcome, it's to show viewers that she KNOWS she's wrong in what she's doing, but DOES IT ANYWAY because she can't let go.

That's important to know, because that's Galadriel's whole thing in the original. She lives in exile for thousands of years because she can't let go. It's her main personality flaw, it's defining for the entire character and, by extension, the conclusion of one of the central storylines in the entire mythology. She is a vicarious stand-in for the faults of the Noldor, and for their eventual redemption.

What you may be implying as character development is actually character reversion, because by the end she does leave the boat, defies the orders of Gil-Galad, and still believes she is right about Sauron.

And she's still wrong.

The point is that she doesn't have it in her (yet) to overcome her dark impulses. Something that she won't be able to do for thousands more years, and something that her entire people have been suffering from for thousands of years already.

This isn't just a storyline of "see I told you Sauron was a problem and noneya'll believed me!". That's not the point. At all.

Look at her talks with Elrond. Even if she admits that what she's doing is actually wrong, she ends up doubling down on her instincts.

Yes. And that's the point. As I explained. Not showing that would take away from the narrative.

She is the same character as what she started as. There is zero character development throughout the entire process.

Putting aside the fact that this show is two episodes in and asking for "character development" two episodes into a multi-season epic is a bit ridiculous (especially since most of it basically was just Ep1), we see important aspects of her character precisely BECAUSE she doesn't just do what she ends up doing right away.

I don't think her motivations to return to Middle Earth are motivated by being unworthy at all

Neither do I. It's motivated by her desire to seek vengeance. It's her realization that she can't overcome that desire that makes her realize she's not worthy of Valinor, but that's not why she turns away. That's just a corollary.

[Triceron]

Her being unworthy might be related to the doom of noldor, where the noldor killed the telari to get their ships, that leads to a lot of shenanigans with i think Feanor as well

But they completely erase this moment, so, can't use that with mind.

Yeah if it's not in the show, I'm not considering at all. There's no reason to imply any external material from the books to fill in the blanks.

Since this is an adaptation, it needs to stand on its own as a self-contained story. I wouldn't bring any of the book material into any of my criticisms of the show and the narrative it presents.

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And as I've explained, the point isn't to change the outcome, it's to show viewers that she KNOWS she's wrong in what she's doing, but DOES IT ANYWAY because she can't let go.
---
Putting aside the fact that this show is two episodes in and asking for "character development" two episodes into a multi-season epic is a bit ridiculous (especially since most of it basically was just Ep1), we see important aspects of her character precisely BECAUSE she doesn't just do what she ends up doing right away.

My point is that she could internalize what she is doing is wrong in any number of ways that doesn't involve her going back to the Elf cities and taking the boat to Valinor and jumping ship the last moment. By all means, the first 20 minutes already establishes that what she's doing is wrong, since it is the root of her being a terrible leader who holds vengeance and justice over the wellbeing of her own people. What Elrond says is literally just repeating what we already saw in the first 20 minutes of the show. And she doesn't even internalize it as her being wrong. Again, not once in the conversation does she admit to any fault. I'm not sure where you're finding this, unless you're telling me her choice to return to Middle Earth is 'wrong to the viewers'. Because narratively, it isn't wrong at all.

If she was wrong, then the scene where Gil Galad talks about the evil returning with Elrond would be counter-intuitive. 'It is hard to see what is right' encapsulates Elrond questioning his own actions that urged Galadriel onto the boats. He's posing the question directly to the audience - "Was this the right decision?"

This isn't just a storyline of "see I told you Sauron was a problem and noneya'll believed me!". That's not the point. At all.

Yet that is the crux of why she was on the boats. Her only reason being on there is because her trusted friend Elrond convinced her that there was no more evil, and she could be at peace. And that was all said in ignorance as Elrond was unaware that the evil was actually still around.

Galadriel literally pinpoints the entire theme of this series with the 'Evil does not sleep, it waits' speech. And that's exactly what she's acting upon by the end of the first episode. The look at the dagger that makes her jump ship... that's what this is all about. Her internal duty to rid the evil that lingers in the world. To hunt down Sauron.

It's not about convincing anyone else about Sauron being alive. It's about her acting on a truth that no one else seemingly believes. It's all encapsulated with her declaration that 'I go to seek the enemy that escaped us in the north. Alone, if I must.' That is the underlying theme of her arc.

[InfiniteCharger]

The bit where you characterise it as "exile." If someone is released from incarceration you don't describe it as being exiled from the prison-yard unless you're desperately trying to make a point.

Well Galadriel doesn't see it as prison. Middle Earth is where she believes Sauron is at and as long as he is there he is a threat to even Valinor. So her mission is to defeat Sauron recalling what happened to her brother. So being sent back to Valinor would go against her desires.

Being right about Sauron isn't a flaw. Being unable to engage with the other Elves so they support her cause instead of worrying she is being driven purely by grief for her brother is. If Galadriel didn't have flaws then Gil-galad would 100% be supporting her intuition about Sauron.



Please make up your mind, do you consider Galadriel to be flawless or unable to communicate her issues without being considered a pest? That isn't exactly how I'd characterise it anyway, certainly for Gil-galad having Galadriel speaking against him is inconvenient (especially given her status and rebellious nature in the past) but there is also great concern for her welfare which living among the Valar should help as well as respect and a sense that she deserves the reward.

It is firmly established that returning to Aman is the greatest reward an Elf could hope for. Galadriel explains her feelings very clearly to Elrond while he is gushing about the marvellous stories he has heard. Galadriel very much wanted to return to the Undying Lands and ultimately her turning away is what Tolkien would consider a clear moral choice to stand against evil instead of acting in her own interest, echoing both her refusal of the Valar's pardon in the Silmarillion and refusing the One Ring in LotR.

All of this just boils down to writing. If they just spent the first episode on that one story line and fleshed it out, then it may make sense. But I literally believe that their goal was to get her on that raft and this is was the only way that they could accomplish it. And all of those other things are just written that way to make it happen and accomplish the plot points they wanted to accomplish. Numenor is an island away from Middle Earth. We don't know what kind of relationship the Elves have with them at this point in time in this series. So they had to figure some way to get her there outside 'official' channels. To me it is just obviously bad writing, especially since all of these things so egregiously contradict the lore of the 2nd age.

[Triceron]

All of this just boils down to writing. If they just spent the first episode on that one story line and fleshed it out, then it may make sense. But I literally believe that their goal was to get her on that raft and this is was the only way that they could accomplish it. And all of those other things are just written that way to make it happen and accomplish the plot points they wanted to accomplish. Numenor is an island away from Middle Earth. We don't know what kind of relationship the Elves have with them at this point in time in this series. So they had to figure some way to get her there outside 'official' channels. To me it is just obviously bad writing, especially since all of these things so egregiously contradict the lore of the 2nd age.

Man, I didn't even see where they were going with her arc, but explaining it that way makes total sense.

And yeah, I do think it was a shoddy way to do it, but they don't have many options Galadriel going to Numenor is the goal here.

[jackofwind]

So, the elite group to find Sauron and escort Galadriel are just a bunch of fucking weakling dumbasess, and this makes sense how?

Because Dwarves are better anyways? IDK man, Tolkien's elves have a long and storied history of being egocentric failures and potato heads.

[StillMcfuu]

I know not elves are not the same, but see, those elves are from the second age, and presumably, they are an elite group to fucking find Sauron, a maiar, i expect then to be Legolas level, and one troll alone clean the flor with not three or four, but seven.

While in the fellowship you only rly have 2 men, a dwarf, an elf and Gandalf versus not just a troll but a small army of orcs as well, it's not even comparable.



So, the elite group to find Sauron and escort Galadriel are just a bunch of fucking weakling dumbasess, and this makes sense how?

No one believes Sauron is around and the missions she has been going on have been to humor her, it could be possible the team are just a token force thrown together. I don't remember if they dropped a date, but Sauron re-emergence occurs something like 600 years after the defeat of Melkor.

I believe you are greatly underestimating legolas, he's son of the King, he was exceptional among his elves. Big rule with Tolkien tends to be your ability is tied to your status. Legolas, son of king; Gimli, descended from Durin; Aragon, King etc...
The only other troll we see fight in enclosed spaces is in LotR and it was fighting beings that are significantly stronger than the average elf.

[Biomega]

My point is that she could internalize what she is doing is wrong in any number of ways that doesn't involve her going back to the Elf cities and taking the boat to Valinor and jumping ship the last moment.

What kind of an argument is that, though?

You could rewrite pretty much ANY story you like in ways that do the same thing in a different way.

So what? "It could have been done differently" isn't an argument. It's just an observation that's trivially true.

By all means, the first 20 minutes already establishes that what she's doing is wrong, since it is the root of her being a terrible leader who holds vengeance and justice over the wellbeing of her own people.

But that's not the same thing. Showing she is wrong is not the same as showing she REALIZES she's wrong but DOES IT ANYWAY. As is showing that she's trying to do right but fails at the last moment because she just can't let go.

That is very, very different. And it fundamentally changes the nature of a character.

Again, not once in the conversation does she admit to any fault.

If you're ignoring anything that isn't just spelled out in actual dialogue, you'll miss a lot about stories. She DOESN'T leave her men behind and goes off on her quest; she goes back with them. She DOESN'T refuse Gil-galad's reward even though she visibly wavers; she accepts it and boards the boat to Valinor. Those are all concessions that the ones criticizing her actions HAVE A POINT. And it's only in the final moment, literally the last second before the gives everything up, that she cannot bring herself to actually do it.

If she was wrong, then the scene where Gil Galad talks about the evil returning with Elrond would be counter-intuitive. 'It is hard to see what is right' encapsulates Elrond questioning his own actions that urged Galadriel onto the boats. He's posing the question directly to the audience - "Was this the right decision?"

And we still don't know if it was the right decision, because it's about more than just Sauron being back. That was part of Tolkien's point from the beginning, when in the Silmarillion the Noldor decide to go against their gods' command. The fact that this resulted in Morgoth's ultimate defeat doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, because that's not what it was about (and besides also led to other things, like the removal of Arda from the world). Just like Galadriel choosing to hold on to her desire for vengeance may ultimately lead to Sauron's defeat, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. That's what she finally realizes in LotR - that even if she took the One Ring to defeat Sauron and bring peace to Middle Earth, that wouldn't be the right thing to do, and it would lead to other, more serious problems. But unlike then, she is not yet capable of making a different choice.

Galadriel literally pinpoints the entire theme of this series with the 'Evil does not sleep, it waits' speech.

That's a separate issue, though. The end doesn't justify the means. Even if Galadriel is right about Sauron (and we of course know she is) that doesn't mean she made the right decision. That's the trap: you think that just because your zeal is vindicated, it was also justified. But that's not how it works.

The look at the dagger that makes her jump ship... that's what this is all about. Her internal duty to rid the evil that lingers in the world. To hunt down Sauron.

That's what she's telling herself. It doesn't mean that's the right choice. That's why she DOESN'T take the Ring in LotR, even though it WOULD mean ridding the world of Sauron. Because she can see further now than could in her past.

It's about her acting on a truth that no one else seemingly believes. It's all encapsulated with her declaration that 'I go to seek the enemy that escaped us in the north. Alone, if I must.' That is the underlying theme of her arc.

Yes. And, ultimately, that proves not to solve anything. She WON'T defeat Sauron. That defeat happens, ultimately, after she REFUSES power in LotR. Because she says no and DOESN'T get involved; whereas here, she cannot yet make that choice. And in the course of events, OTHER things happen, too: an entire continent is sunk, millions of people are killed. The gods literally remove themselves from the rest of the world, cutting off their access to paradise. Those are not small consequences.

[jackofwind]

It isn't rocket appliances, it's straight up trash.

You want to tell a story of someone rising up to be a good leader? Have them start off as being a hot-headed lone wolf, make mistakes that has them respect the value of leadership, have them follow under other strong leaders, and build up to becoming one themselves. John Snow style. It'd make way more sense than establishing her as a 'leader', showing her as a 'bad leader', then showing her lone-wolf it. It's counter-intuitive to establish her as a leader if we're on the journey to see her transition from hot-headed lone wolf to good leader.

If they want to establish her as a highly skilled fighter, then so be it. If they want to push the revenge angle and hunt for Sauron, then by all means go for it. I don't see how establishing her as a leader of a company of Elves has any meaning to the first 20 minutes when the whole story would have worked just as fine if she were an exceptionally skilled fighter who was under the command of someone else, or literally lone-wolfing it with maybe one or two close allies.

Consider also that we're only 2 episodes in. Let the show breathe a bit before you summon the 4 Horsemen.

Or don't, I don't really care tbh. Seems silly to throw yourself this far into the weeds when you're only 2 episodes into what is (allegedly) intended to be an incredibly long story with shitloads of time for character development.

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The only other troll we see fight in enclosed spaces is in LotR and it was fighting beings that are significantly stronger than the average elf.

And the only thing we know about snow trolls is that they use stealth to attack (ie: Helm Hammerhand stalking prey unseen like a snow troll), which hints at them being smaller and less strong than the cave/mountain/stone variants. So in a straight fight they would presumably be less dangerous than the other trolls, and you'd need to be less powerful to kill one.

[Triceron]

What kind of an argument is that, though?

You could rewrite pretty much ANY story you like in ways that do the same thing in a different way.

So what? "It could have been done differently" isn't an argument. It's just an observation that's trivially true.

I mean, there isn't any 'right' or 'wrong' here, but my point and my opinion is that what they presented here is counter-intuitive.

But that's not the same thing. Showing she is wrong is not the same as showing she REALIZES she's wrong but DOES IT ANYWAY. As is showing that she's trying to do right but fails at the last moment because she just can't let go.

I'd question whether she even realizes it being wrong.

The only thing you're banking on for this argument is her actually getting on that ship. And that isn't exactly her admitting that she was wrong at all, that's merely her accepting her fate at Elrond's behest. That's all. If you interpret that as her realizing being wrong, sure, you can interpret it that way. But that's not what the narrative actually implies here, unless you can point me to something that I've missed.

It seems pretty clear to me she gets on the ship for the briefest chance that she could somehow be at peace and Elrond's words could ring true that the Evil really is gone from Middle Earth or that he'd be able to take care of it. That's how I see her reasoning to go on the ship. There's nothing in the narrative actually showing her reflecting on any of her actions actually being wrong.

I think this is where we disagree.

If you're ignoring anything that isn't just spelled out in actual dialogue, you'll miss a lot about stories. She DOESN'T leave her men behind and goes off on her quest; she goes back with them. She DOESN'T refuse Gil-galad's reward even though she visibly wavers; she accepts it and boards the boat to Valinor. Those are all concessions that the ones criticizing her actions HAVE A POINT. And it's only in the final moment, literally the last second before the gives everything up, that she cannot bring herself to actually do it.

... As I said, her not refusing Gil-galad was not internalized. Even after accepting his gift, she declared to Elrond that she was going to the North alone and was dead set on doing so. She only reconsiders and boards the ships at the behest of Elrond's council. She boards the boats not because she's realized any wrongs should be righted by going there, it's because Elrond declared in confidence that he would take up her responsibilities in safeguarding Middle Earth.

Again, perhaps we may simply disagree here. I don't see the points you're making, because her actions are not internalized as redemption for her actions, but as a result of having a heart-to-heart with Elrond and taking his words into consideration for her own well-being. Otherwise, she has never wavered in her convictions, and does not actually admit her actions having been ever been wrong. Her declaration to Elrond that she was gonna continue to hunt Sauron after she already accepted Gil-Galad's gift was clearly indicative of her not actually accepting responsibility. He literally had to talk her back into sticking with 'the plan'.

And we still don't know if it was the right decision, because it's about more than just Sauron being back. That was part of Tolkien's point from the beginning, when in the Silmarillion the Noldor decide to go against their gods' command. The fact that this resulted in Morgoth's ultimate defeat doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, because that's not what it was about (and besides also led to other things, like the removal of Arda from the world). Just like Galadriel choosing to hold on to her desire for vengeance may ultimately lead to Sauron's defeat, but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. That's what she finally realizes in LotR - that even if she took the One Ring to defeat Sauron and bring peace to Middle Earth, that wouldn't be the right thing to do, and it would lead to other, more serious problems. But unlike then, she is not yet capable of making a different choice.

I think we're on the same page here.

That's a separate issue, though. The end doesn't justify the means. Even if Galadriel is right about Sauron (and we of course know she is) that doesn't mean she made the right decision. That's the trap: you think that just because your zeal is vindicated, it was also justified. But that's not how it works.

Sadly, here it does. Because the writers are writing this narrative backwards. They have the ends, and they need to retrofit the means to justify the ends. That's literally what I've been pointing out. The overall narrative is very loosely fit, and unravels easily when you point out how certain sequences aren't playing out as the narrative intends them to.

Galadriel's journey would be in finding herself. She needs to see how far her path of vengeance will take her, and she needs to see the darkness before she has the wisdom to see the light. That is the core theme that this show aims to tell.

My point is that the current sequence of events we were given in the first episode were very shoddily put together, considering nothing that happened actually progressed the plot in any significant way other than to take her out of the North and put her in the middle of the sea. Literally the rest of the characterization could have been kept the same had she abandoned her troops and continued her search for Sauron, and I make a point of this because it would literally be the same journey touching on the same themes as I explained above.

Seemingly, the only reason why she is even getting on the boats is because the writers seem to want her in Numenor at some point, and having her stranded in the middle of the sea seems like the direction they've chosen to make it happen. I've always criticized the entire situation being superfluous, and now realizing that she will be in Numenor in future episodes, it's vindicated my suspicions on why her having her first episode conclude leaving her party and being in the sea felt so out of place.

IMO, it literally could have happened with her doing this very thing in the North. I see the only reason we went through this big circle is to give her someone to bounce exposition off of (Elrond), and to find a way to place her closer to Numenor.

That's what she's telling herself. It doesn't mean that's the right choice. That's why she DOESN'T take the Ring in LotR, even though it WOULD mean ridding the world of Sauron. Because she can see further now than could in her past.

It doesn't mean it's the wrong choice, it doesn't mean it's the right choice. It's simply her choice.

And my point is that it's the same choice that she could have made right after the Troll fight. The decision for her to look at the dagger in the boat has not been affected WHATSOEVER with any of the time she's spent back in the Elf city. Her entire dialogue with Elrond was merely exposition for what we already know her to be - driven by her impulses and single-mindedly irrational in hunting evil at whatever the cost.

And as I've explained, the entire getting-on-the-boat decision was all force-fed to us by the writers by having Elrond convince her to do so. Her decision to go solo is because she reflects on the words of her brother.. And if we take that into consideration, the whole stone metaphor could literally be applied to the very moment after the Troll fight and having her decide to push on regardless of her troops or the orders of the king. It would work because the metaphor is literally being applied to her company and her allies, who do not recognize the light from the reflection in the darkness. It would be the exact same turning point as on the ship.

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Consider also that we're only 2 episodes in. Let the show breathe a bit before you summon the 4 Horsemen.

Or don't, I don't really care tbh. Seems silly to throw yourself this far into the weeds when you're only 2 episodes into what is (allegedly) intended to be an incredibly long story with shitloads of time for character development.

lol, wtf dude.

My entire criticism is based on what we've seen so far, not a criticism of the entire season. Not sure why this gets your panties in a knot.

You're the one who jumped in to respond to me, I didn't force you to read any of my comments. If you can't deal with me expressing my criticisms, feel free to fuck off.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah and usually in those RPGs, this is shown by giving the support characters some time to shine and actually, you know, support the Carry.

Can you point me out where this actually happened in the show? Springboard dude is literally the only thing notable, and I hardly even consider that support considering Galadriel could have taken the thing down even without the help.

There's no reason to assume the idea that the fight would have been harder without their assistance, because they never establish this in the narrative. You're comparing this to an RPG which has moments that let you experiment with the game and find out how important (or not important) the supporting characters would be. Here, we're literally given a short version that cuts out all their support, and merely shows them all when being attacked, and constantly urging the leader to return home.

Even without them providing combat support (though the springboard was) you can see in the episode that some carry torches some have bows while Galadriel doesn't, So Even if there not combat supports they visually read as having a break up in duty's which could lead to her not being able to go on by her self.

[Biomega]

The only thing you're banking on for this argument is her actually getting on that ship. And that isn't exactly her admitting that she was wrong at all, that's merely her accepting her fate at Elrond's behest. That's all.

If someone goes "you're wrong doing A, you should do B instead" and you go "okay, I guess I will do B"... how is that not admitting that you were wrong? Or at the very least that you might have been wrong, and that they have a point when they say you should do B instead of A.

That's exactly what happens here. The fact that she then changes her mind and STILL does A doesn't invalidate that. In fact it further reinforces the importance of A to you, because you're choosing to do it EVEN THOUGH you agreed with others that you should be doing B instead. That realization is what it's all about.

There's nothing in the narrative actually showing her reflecting on any of her actions actually being wrong.

That depends on what you mean by "being wrong". She's not wrong about Sauron being a threat. But she is absolutely wrong about risking her own life and that of others in the name of personal vengeance. That hasn't changed. That's also precisely what caused the departure of the Noldor from Valinor in the first place.

That's the point here: that whether or not Sauron is still a threat doesn't matter, what she did was wrong either way. The ends do not justify the means.

... As I said, her not refusing Gil-galad was not internalized.

You keep using the word "internalized" and I don't know what you're trying to say with it. That she changed her mind? That she didn't REALLY accept it? Yes... that's kind of the point. But it also matters that she DID accept it AT FIRST. Just because she changed her mind back later doesn't mean the time where she agreed isn't important. Because that's a concession on her part to the validity of the criticism against her. It shows us that even she thinks Gil-galad had a point. The fact that she then does her own thing anyway doesn't invalidate that, in fact it makes it even more important.

Even after accepting his gift, she declared to Elrond that she was going to the North alone and was dead set on doing so. She only reconsiders and boards the ships at the behest of Elrond's council. She boards the boats not because she's realized any wrongs should be righted by going there, it's because Elrond declared in confidence that he would take up her responsibilities in safeguarding Middle Earth.

The same thing applies here. She agrees that this is a good idea. She goes and does it. Then she remembers her vengeance when she sees the dagger, and decided at the last second you know what I'm actually STILL going to do it.

That's an important moment that only works BECAUSE she initially agreed with Elrond and Gil-galad.

It makes the story take a very different turn than it would have if she'd just gone "fuck it, I know best, I'm doing this alone" from the start.

Sadly, here it does. Because the writers are writing this narrative backwards. They have the ends, and they need to retrofit the means to justify the ends. That's literally what I've been pointing out. The overall narrative is very loosely fit, and unravels easily when you point out how certain sequences aren't playing out as the narrative intends them to.

But the point is that the ends don't justify the means; not that the means justify the ends, which sounds a little weird to begin with.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. We know Galadriel is NOT the one who defeats Sauron in the original canon. Whether or not this show changes things we cannot say - if it does end up like that and she's the one standing with Elendil at Mount Doom or whatever, we need to reevaluate things. But for now, we KNOW that Galadriels ends will NOT be realized. She is NOT going to get her vengeance, because she is not going to be the one to defeat Sauron; not temporarily at the hands of the Last Alliance and not ultimately at the hands (or rather: the finger) of Frodo.

Galadriel's journey would be in finding herself. She needs to see how far her path of vengeance will take her, and she needs to see the darkness before she has the wisdom to see the light. That is the core theme that this show aims to tell.

Yes, but that will not be realized in this show, if it follows the canon in any appreciable way. She doesn't achieve this until LotR, which is thousands of years later. We will see the preconditions for that, and likely the beginning of her eventual redemption. But we will not see the redemption itself, given the expected scope of this show.

My point is that the current sequence of events we were given in the first episode were very shoddily put together, considering nothing that happened actually progressed the plot in any significant way other than to take her out of the North and put her in the middle of the sea.

I disagree. It establishes crucial definitions of her character and motivation. 1. that she's driven by vengeance; 2. that this is a flaw; 3. that she knows this is a flaw, but is unable to give it up anyway. They do this quite systematically, with a very standard array of narrative techniques. Whatever you can criticize the show for (and there are many things), that at least they did very meticulously and very thoroughly.

It's really more Ep2 where she falls apart on a narrative level (she falls apart on the execution level way before that, because the acting and dialogue are... not good) as the whole thing about her on the ocean is just really bad in every way.

Literally the rest of the characterization could have been kept the same had she abandoned her troops and continued her search for Sauron, and I make a point of this because it would literally be the same journey touching on the same themes as I explained above.

It most definitely would NOT have worked the same way, because that lacks her realization of her own flaws. This is important to be established in the narrative. You can't just skip steps and say it's the same journey because it ends up at the same destination. That's not how storytelling works.

Seemingly, the only reason why she is even getting on the boats is because the writers seem to want her in Numenor at some point, and having her stranded in the middle of the sea seems like the direction they've chosen to make it happen.

Not quite. I agree they want her to be in Númenor (for what reason we do not yet know), but I disagree that's what her trip to Valinor is for. It's to show her refusing redemption in favor of vengeance - a choice she ultimately has to make, because that shows she's not worthy of redemption (yet) and knows it.

But you're right that they added the whole Ep2 ocean thing to transition into her ending up in Númenor. Which is terrible writing. If they just wanted to get that done, have her picked up by a Númenoran ship immediately. Heck, have her see one from her boat - look at the ship, look at her dagger, look back at the ship, realize she has a way to get what she wants, jump overboard to take it. That makes a ton more sense than spending an entire episode with here trying to, uh, SWIM BACK TO LAND FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN or something, and then spend the rest of her time in a clingy wet dress being ogled by an inexplicably handsome rogue. That's a cheap attempt at fan service, nothing more. It's despicable visual practice, and it's abysmal writing.

It doesn't mean it's the wrong choice, it doesn't mean it's the right choice. It's simply her choice.

Do I say "it's the wrong choice" in my quote? Do I say "it's the right choice"? No I don't.

[Dellis0991]

Okay I told myself I'll watch a episode and give it a chance but is it any good? Did they get anything right?

[Syegfryed]

No one believes Sauron is around and the missions she has been going on have been to humor her, it could be possible the team are just a token force thrown together. I don't remember if they dropped a date, but Sauron re-emergence occurs something like 600 years after the defeat of Melkor.

Yeah no one believe an immortal Maiar is around anymore, just Galadriel.

And even when She brings conclusive proof, they still discart the idea, or say "if she find him it can create problems" or whatever, its just bad writing, and, its Gil'galad that informs Sauron is back, not her.

I believe you are greatly underestimating legolas, he's son of the King, he was exceptional among his elves. Big rule with Tolkien tends to be your ability is tied to your status. Legolas, son of king; Gimli, descended from Durin; Aragon, King etc...
The only other troll we see fight in enclosed spaces is in LotR and it was fighting beings that are significantly stronger than the average elf.

Im not rly underestimating then, im treating then what its supposed to be, an elite squad to fight Sauron for hundreds of years

7 average elf and Galadriel should be able to deal with the troll without getting their asses kicked

This all come down to bad writing, if they suck so much, just make her go with 3 or 2, if they want to show her power, separate the group and make her solo the troll, like she did without making everyone looking like hobbits.

Because Dwarves are better anyways? IDK man, Tolkien's elves have a long and storied history of being egocentric failures and potato heads.

If those elves are the elite, they would never win the ar of wrath and banish Morgoth, this is absurd

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Okay I told myself I'll watch a episode and give it a chance but is it any good? Did they get anything right?

I mean, you find something "right" here and there, but a lot of shit is changed, some that don't make any sense, bad writing, bad dialogue, everything filled with pseudo intelligent speeches trying to be epic and complex. A lot of stuff trying to pull from the movies to bring nostalgia.

Cgi, scenarios and music is good, though it seems they force the music where it should not be.

I think this stuff is like fast and furious and transformers, pure garbage, but entertaining to some, especially for the people who don't know about the story or are just trying to take a day off and shut down the brain and watch some fantasy stuff.

[Triceron]

If someone goes "you're wrong doing A, you should do B instead" and you go "okay, I guess I will do B"... how is that not admitting that you were wrong? Or at the very least that you might have been wrong, and that they have a point when they say you should do B instead of A.

Yes, but having admitted was absolutely pointless to overall narrative.

And I can tell you very clearly, that by the second episode, nothing about 'I guess I will do B' has any impact or payoff to her arc whatsoever. It may as well have not happened at all, because it's actually not important at all to her story. Her having accepted Gil-Galad's gift is completely overshadowed by her actions by the end. The narrative itself puts zero importance on her having accepted it in the first place.

As I've said, from a narrative point of view it could have been written any other way, and her having this revelation when she was far into the sea made little sense overall to her character, and to the narrative. The only reason it happened is because the writers literally want her to be in Numenor.

That's exactly what happens here. The fact that she then changes her mind and STILL does A doesn't invalidate that. In fact it further reinforces the importance of A to you, because you're choosing to do it EVEN THOUGH you agreed with others that you should be doing B instead. That realization is what it's all about.

It wasn't important at all.

I'm not even sure why you are putting any significance on it at all, because the show sure isn't!

That depends on what you mean by "being wrong". She's not wrong about Sauron being a threat. But she is absolutely wrong about risking her own life and that of others in the name of personal vengeance. That hasn't changed. That's also precisely what caused the departure of the Noldor from Valinor in the first place.

That's the point here: that whether or not Sauron is still a threat doesn't matter, what she did was wrong either way. The ends do not justify the means.

As a self-contained show, it's too early to tell what ends justify what means right now. If we're talking about her choosing to hunt Sauron, then she isn't wrong because the entire first episode dedicates itself to showing a growing evil around the world. And she is one of the powerful few individuals who may be capable of helping fight it. Narratively, it is not wrong, because the world of Middle Earth will need people to fight the growing evil, whatever form it takes.

As I said, the narrative itself does not paint her actions as being wrong. They're only wrong if you take the single perspective of Gil-galad and his explanation that she would spread darkness. Otherwise everything else in the narrative implies that her choice may head to darkness, but will ultimately give her the wisdom to guide herself (and others) to the light.

And it's through this journey she has to take in order to really see the truth of what is the real light. Based on the narrative, the right decision is implied to be the one that experiences evil and overcomes it. It might not be a very Tolkien theme, but it's what the show presents at the outset.

You keep using the word "internalized" and I don't know what you're trying to say with it. That she changed her mind? That she didn't REALLY accept it? Yes... that's kind of the point. But it also matters that she DID accept it AT FIRST. Just because she changed her mind back later doesn't mean the time where she agreed isn't important. Because that's a concession on her part to the validity of the criticism against her. It shows us that even she thinks Gil-galad had a point. The fact that she then does her own thing anyway doesn't invalidate that, in fact it makes it even more important.

And yet it's not important at all.

Like I said, you could cut out the entire middle section of that story and everything plays out the same. Her character has put ZERO importance on her own regard to take up Gil-galad's gift, and has shown no actual progression in making a realization to stray away from the easy route. It's completely unnecessary because we're not talking about Galadriel going through a character arc, we're literally talking about the first episode merely establishing her journey.

I would not be surprised if the boat moment never gets reflected on again in the rest of the series, and she literally continues to be the same Galadriel that we already know of from the first 20-minutes of the show, as if her decision to get on the boat never really mattered. I personally doubt this is as important as you seem to interpret it to be.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. We know Galadriel is NOT the one who defeats Sauron in the original canon. Whether or not this show changes things we cannot say - if it does end up like that and she's the one standing with Elendil at Mount Doom or whatever, we need to reevaluate things. But for now, we KNOW that Galadriels ends will NOT be realized. She is NOT going to get her vengeance, because she is not going to be the one to defeat Sauron; not temporarily at the hands of the Last Alliance and not ultimately at the hands (or rather: the finger) of Frodo.

While we don't know exactly what the show will do or change, I think one key thing they will do is show Galadriel obtaining her Ring of Power. Cuz it's in the name of the show. And somehow, this will tie into her journey into darkness, and ultimately show her coming out of it as well, hopefully a wiser character who acts rationally.

Yes, but that will not be realized in this show, if it follows the canon in any appreciable way. She doesn't achieve this until LotR, which is thousands of years later. We will see the preconditions for that, and likely the beginning of her eventual redemption. But we will not see the redemption itself, given the expected scope of this show.

I'm only explaining what we know of the show and what it's aimed to tell us. What direction they end up taking I can't say, but I'm sticking to information in the show and making any comments or criticisms specifically based on what they present to us in the show. Outside of that, we also know that the liscence deal they have with using Tolkien's works implies that they're not allowed to change what happens in LOTR, so they can't do something like prematurely one of the main named characters from the books or rewrite history into some alternate multiverse.

I disagree. It establishes crucial definitions of her character and motivation. 1. that she's driven by vengeance; 2. that this is a flaw; 3. that she knows this is a flaw, but is unable to give it up anyway. They do this quite systematically, with a very standard array of narrative techniques. Whatever you can criticize the show for (and there are many things), that at least they did very meticulously and very thoroughly.

I acknowledge your reasoning, and it's very sensible. All I can say is I equally disagree with 2 and 3, because I don't think the show even has her acknowledge any of her actions or motivations as being flaws. She actually feels compelled by it as a duty, and frankly the rest of the narrative supports her motives given that there is an evil growing in the world. It's still too early to see what direction they want to take her character, and whether she will become an anti-hero within the RoP narrative.

It's really more Ep2 where she falls apart on a narrative level (she falls apart on the execution level way before that, because the acting and dialogue are... not good) as the whole thing about her on the ocean is just really bad in every way.

Fully agreed.

It most definitely would NOT have worked the same way, because that lacks her realization of her own flaws. This is important to be established in the narrative. You can't just skip steps and say it's the same journey because it ends up at the same destination. That's not how storytelling works.

Again, I'm making a point that even if it were completely cut out, the story wouldn't change one bit, because I really doubt 'realization of her own flaws' will be a part of her story moving forward.

The flaws you're talking about are addressed by the stone metaphor. If her flaw is 'vengeance/justice', then she is embracing it completely, and the stones metaphor covers her motivation to do so because she believes that Gil-Galad and her company are merely content with reflections, while she aims to seek the real light.

Her flaws will lead her to the real light. So there's no point in 'realizing her flaws' when the narrative literally paints them to be the only way she can reach her goal of heading towards the light.

But you're right that they added the whole Ep2 ocean thing to transition into her ending up in Númenor. Which is terrible writing. If they just wanted to get that done, have her picked up by a Númenoran ship immediately. Heck, have her see one from her boat - look at the ship, look at her dagger, look back at the ship, realize she has a way to get what she wants, jump overboard to take it. That makes a ton more sense than spending an entire episode with here trying to, uh, SWIM BACK TO LAND FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN or something, and then spend the rest of her time in a clingy wet dress being ogled by an inexplicably handsome rogue. That's a cheap attempt at fan service, nothing more. It's despicable visual practice, and it's abysmal writing.

This is pretty much my thought process, and I think you agree that there alternatives to what they did here. In my mind, that turning point merely starts earlier in the series. Like, literally after the Troll scene, she lets her party go back to Elf lands, maybe we get some filler scenes with her struggling on her own and having flashbacks thinking back to conversations with Elrond, and finally they cap it off with her finding her journey taking her to Numenor some how, like finding Sauron's symbol on a Numenorean's corpse and leading her to go there.

Still a bunch of 'what ifs', I admit, but I think whatever we got was ill-planned and ill-executed for what they intend her character and journey to be focused on. And yes, the ocean parts are just really really bad....

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Even without them providing combat support (though the springboard was) you can see in the episode that some carry torches some have bows while Galadriel doesn't, So Even if there not combat supports they visually read as having a break up in duty's which could lead to her not being able to go on by her self.

I mean, it kinda gets undermined after she tells Elrond she's gonna go back to hunting the evil that escaped in the North, alone, if she must.