1. #4201
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, but having admitted was absolutely pointless to overall narrative.
    Not it wasn't, and I've explained why in great detail several times now.

    Please engage with the explanation, don't just go back to the premise and disagree. You have this habit of not reading what I say, please don't do that again this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    As a self-contained show, it's too early to tell what ends justify what means right now.
    I think you may not understand what "the ends don't justify the means" is about. It's a GENERAL principle. It's not about specific cases. The ends NEVER justify the means. The point being that HOW you do something matters, and you cannot use RESULTS to justify OTHERWISE UNJUSTIFIABLE actions. That's why that particular adage exists - as a safeguard against wrong actions for right reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Narratively, it is not wrong, because the world of Middle Earth will need people to fight the growing evil, whatever form it takes.
    Yeah you clearly just don't know what "the ends don't justify the means" means. You should google the term first, and make sure you understand what it's actually about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    As I said, the narrative itself does not paint her actions as being wrong.
    It does from the very start, when she's callous and abusive towards her own people, to the point of them mutinying against her. If you don't think that qualifies as "what she did was wrong", I don't know what to tell you, clearly your moral compass is pointing in a whole other direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Like I said, you could cut out the entire middle section of that story and everything plays out the same.
    I've explained many times, using several different analogies, why "you end up in the same place" doesn't mean the journey didn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I would not be surprised if the boat moment never gets reflected on again in the rest of the series, and she literally continues to be the same Galadriel that we already know of from the first 20-minutes of the show, as if her decision to get on the boat never really mattered. I personally doubt this is as important as you seem to interpret it to be.
    I don't engage in speculation about the future. I can only deal with what we've actually seen. If it turns out they do something with it that changes the interpretation, cool, we go and revise things. Until and unless that happens, everything that isn't actually shown is the realm of speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Again, I'm making a point that even if it were completely cut out, the story wouldn't change one bit, because I really doubt 'realization of her own flaws' will be a part of her story moving forward.
    You're free to speculate about the future of the story. I don't. I'll adjust my interpretation as more episodes become available (for as long as I can stomach continued watching), but I will not speculate about the parts of the show I haven't seen. I can make inferences based on canonical events in the future; but those are subject to revision as well, given they are likely to change some things. Until and unless they do, I'll stick to what we actually know.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2022-09-08 at 04:50 AM.

  2. #4202
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I mean, it kinda gets undermined after she tells Elrond she's gonna go back to hunting the evil that escaped in the North, alone, if she must.
    A character deciding to commit to an impossible task alone doesn’t make that task any more achievable or even a good idea to try. This is something we see directly in the second episode where her going alone leads to her needing to rely on the raft people both because she can’t swim for ever and because she traps her self and needs to be freed by some one else.

    Hell this is also something we see in LoTR when Frodo leaves the fellowship to destroy the ring alone only to then rely on Sam at key parts of the quest.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #4203
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    When Gal jumped ship I kinda chuckled amusingly. In the beginning of the serie there is that classic map on parchment (to give so layout of places for those who may not know).
    The striped line animated to represent the high elves travel to Middle Earth is humongously far in that representation.

    Yet... she strech her limbs and swim for a short while and woopsie daisy here comes a suitable shipwreck. And we have yet to see when she use the sea wyrm as mount to get back for real. I dont care about it but I immediately knew some far fetched explanation is incoming. Dont remember that from the any books but was like 25y ago I read all but the main works.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2022-09-08 at 04:56 AM.
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  4. #4204
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    A character deciding to commit to an impossible task alone doesn’t make that task any more achievable or even a good idea to try. This is something we see directly in the second episode where her going alone leads to her needing to rely on the raft people both because she can’t swim for ever and because she traps her self and needs to be freed by some one else.

    Hell this is also something we see in LoTR when Frodo leaves the fellowship to destroy the ring alone only to then rely on Sam at key parts of the quest.
    Yeah but Sam wasn't shown to be completely useless, unlike her company whose screen time was dedicated to being a burden to her journey more than a boon. That's probably the biggest difference.

    Again, that is my biggest criticism for her party. If the argument is that they were important because they supported her journey, then it should be in more ways than things that she can literally do on her own like hold a torch or scout.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 04:59 AM.

  5. #4205
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    When Gal jumped ship I kinda chuckled amusingly. In the beginning of the serie there is that classic map on parchment (to give so layout of places for those who may not know).
    The striped line animated to represent the high elves travel to Middle Earth is humongously far in that representation.

    Yet... she strech her limbs and swim for a short while and woopsie daisy here comes a suitable shipwreck. And we have yet to see when she use the sea wyrm as mount to get back for real. I dont care about it but I immediately knew some far fetched explanation is incoming. Dont remember that from the any books but was like 25y ago I read all but the main works.
    Iirc minimal it is 400 miles, but could be up to 2000 miles from land... guess Galadriel has infinite stamina and is an expert swimmer too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  6. #4206
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Iirc minimal it is 400 miles, but could be up to 2000 miles from land... guess Galadriel has infinite stamina and is an expert swimmer too.
    Yes, have to add that to the list of expert marksmen, magicians, smiths etc.
    It's odd though, wonder what athletics dwarves shine in. Midget-Sumo wrestling perhaps or is that taken by haflings *ponder*
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  7. #4207
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yeah but Sam wasn't shown to be completely useless, unlike her company whose screen time was dedicated to being a burden to her journey more than a boon. That's probably the biggest difference.

    Again, that is my biggest criticism for her party. If the argument is that they were important because they supported her journey, then it should be in more ways than things that she can literally do on her own like hold a torch or scout.
    Sam literally started to drown when he tried to go with Frodo and had to be saved. He was pretty useless for a good chunk of the trip, arguably a detriment even.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #4208
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sam literally started to drown when he tried to go with Frodo and had to be saved. He was pretty useless for a good chunk of the trip, arguably a detriment even.
    Na just a slow starter
    Give it 2h of movie or half a book and he start to gets his shit together. In a hobbit kinda (half useless/useful) way of cos.
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  9. #4209
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sam literally started to drown when he tried to go with Frodo and had to be saved. He was pretty useless for a good chunk of the trip, arguably a detriment even.
    Yes but like I said, he wasn't only useless. Them showing him ever being handy means he is still useful, even if he more bumbling than not in the first half of the series.

    The Elves in her company didn't do anything useful in that first episode. If they did something notable, then I'd have much less reason to complain because I can literally point to that as an example for why she needs them.

    The show didn't have any moments for them at all, and implying she'd suffer without help like she does in the open sea is quite an inadequate comparison considering she made that irrational move of her own accord. Her company wouldn't have been any more useful if they literally followed her into the water. I'd imagine most of them would have simply drowned in fact.

    Cuz let's face it, if they weren't given enough importance to literally be shown helping Galadriel in any way, and only be depicted as a burden, then that's really are they are in the context of the narrative.

    Just like Sam would be a burden if the movies only depicted him falling in water and cut out all the scenes where he was actually useful. The difference is Sam is still depicted as being useful in more ways than simply being moral support.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 05:28 AM.

  10. #4210
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes but like I said, he wasn't only useless. Them showing him ever being handy means he is still useful, even if he more bumbling than not in the first half of the series.

    The Elves in her company didn't do anything useful in that first episode. If they did something notable, then I'd have much less reason to complain because I can literally point to that as an example for why she needs them.

    The show didn't have any moments for them at all, and implying she'd suffer without help like she does in the open sea is quite an inadequate comparison considering she made that irrational move of her own accord. Her company wouldn't have been any more useful if they literally followed her into the water. I'd imagine most of them would have simply drowned in fact.
    The point isn’t that the troops she had would/should have gotten screen time being more helpful it’s that she can’t complete her impossible task alone and just like Sam having a companion be useless for a time (1, Mabye 2 movies) doesn’t mean that companions aren’t needed at all to make the goal actually archivable.

    Again this is something we literally see in the second episode even though she says she will go on her own if she has to she immediately has to rely on others as she can’t do it alone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Na just a slow starter
    Give it 2h of movie or half a book and he start to gets his shit together. In a hobbit kinda (half useless/useful) way of cos.
    Honestly given how much of a suck Frodo is id say Sam was a pretty good Emotional support hobbit even before then.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #4211
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Honestly given how much of a suck Frodo is id say Sam was a pretty good Emotional support hobbit even before then.
    Well he is half useless/useful. When Frodo falter he shines, saves his butt 3 times. The rest hes a podcast about How he remembers the Shire and probably doped on LSD while at it.
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  12. #4212
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    The rest hes a podcast about How he remembers the Shire and probably doped on LSD while at it.
    Ha, this one actually made me laugh at 2 AM. Probably one of the best descriptions of Sam I've heard.

  13. #4213
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The point isn’t that the troops she had would/should have gotten screen time being more helpful it’s that she can’t complete her impossible task alone
    There's no way you can actually claim that if they don't establish how she would fare in the same situation and environment if she were alone.

    doesn’t mean that companions aren’t needed at all to make the goal actually archivable.
    The show could easily establish her finding new allies who align with her ideals and recognize a spreading evil in the world; ones who will actually support her rather than undermine her goal of making certain that all evil is rid from the world.

    Cuz that's where her story is headed anyways.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 06:26 AM.

  14. #4214
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    We reach the point where we have to compare a fat ass gardener hobbit to an elite squad of elves who went to hunt down Sauron and - presumably - defeat him if they actually find it, to defend the atrocious writing.


    I can't wrap my head of how this is going to be what, six or eight seasons? Let alone more 6 episodes, they have to ditch those writers and get sometone half-decent to salvage this, or its going to be a joke
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-09-08 at 06:15 AM.

  15. #4215
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Ha, this one actually made me laugh at 2 AM. Probably one of the best descriptions of Sam I've heard.
    Glad to be of service, the fucker stole my LSD stash after all last time he popped over to "Could I please lend your frying pan again please?".

    I should have known better.
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  16. #4216
    I do wonder what in tarnation this show tries to do

  17. #4217
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    I do wonder what in tarnation this show tries to do
    Nobody knows, not even the writers.

  18. #4218
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    I do wonder what in tarnation this show tries to do
    maybe it's about writing a ridiculous dialogue and shoot awful scenes and see how many defend it.
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  19. #4219
    Stood in the Fire Mazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Yes, have to add that to the list of expert marksmen, magicians, smiths etc.
    It's odd though, wonder what athletics dwarves shine in. Midget-Sumo wrestling perhaps or is that taken by haflings *ponder*
    Smashing stones, duh

  20. #4220
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Yeah no one believe an immortal Maiar is around anymore, just Galadriel.

    And even when She brings conclusive proof, they still discart the idea, or say "if she find him it can create problems" or whatever, its just bad writing, and, its Gil'galad that informs Sauron is back, not her.


    Im not rly underestimating then, im treating then what its supposed to be, an elite squad to fight Sauron for hundreds of years

    7 average elf and Galadriel should be able to deal with the troll without getting their asses kicked

    This all come down to bad writing, if they suck so much, just make her go with 3 or 2, if they want to show her power, separate the group and make her solo the troll, like she did without making everyone looking like hobbits.




    If those elves are the elite, they would never win the ar of wrath and banish Morgoth, this is absurd

    - - - Updated - - -



    I mean, you find something "right" here and there, but a lot of shit is changed, some that don't make any sense, bad writing, bad dialogue, everything filled with pseudo intelligent speeches trying to be epic and complex. A lot of stuff trying to pull from the movies to bring nostalgia.

    Cgi, scenarios and music is good, though it seems they force the music where it should not be.

    I think this stuff is like fast and furious and transformers, pure garbage, but entertaining to some, especially for the people who don't know about the story or are just trying to take a day off and shut down the brain and watch some fantasy stuff.
    I do agree with you in general, it's bad writing. It was a poor scene. The elves were kind of bad at doing what they are supposed to be good at. 100% agree. I just think they could have been shown to be a bit better than they were while still losing. The principle of the scene doesn't bother me, the execution was slapstick.

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