1. #4221
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Er, there is no problem.

    I would agree with you that there is no problem with a main character having more ability than other characters who are inconsequential to the plot. We have this very situation play out with Galadriel having more capability than all the survivors on the raft (sans Dude who Saved Her). There is nothing wrong with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And to make it even more damning, we see Galadriel way far ahead of all the other Elves, illustrating that she's physically superior them all and doesn't even need to wait for them to catch up.
    Talk about bad faith. Now you are saying there is nothing wrong with that yet it being shown is something you've taken issue with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But they are still shown as being useless when pitted against an obstacle of significance.
    Yet they haven't. They didn't die. They didn't seem to have any serious wounds. They merely didn't "win" before she shown up which again is something you just got done saying there is nothing wrong with. She is the main character and they are throw away characters. She isn't baby sitting her troops just because she is more skilled. This is where your bias (the hatred I keep mentioning) slips into your arguments. Her being shown as more powerful is bad just for the sake of it when you also claim it isn't an issue if that is shown. So what is the real reason why it is bad?

    She doesn't need to be shown support for her progress because they exist to stop her progress. I'm not sure why you didn't catch that when they continually try and get her to stop being so zealous. When the King does so. When Elrond does so. She was sent away because of the blindness that zealotry caused and it maybe being beneficial to "the enemy". It was a recurring theme that others were continually trying to temper her inability to rest and let it go. Then just when she is about to give in to that pressure she refuses. It is typical "main character" stuff that for some reason you are taking issue with.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-08 at 08:52 PM.
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  2. #4222
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yet they haven't. They didn't die.
    They don't have to die to be shown as being a hindrance to her.

    As I said, the show depicted them as a hindrance. Everything else you're trying to point out to defend this is merely splitting hairs. Dead or not, they're still depicted as having been completely useless to her.

    She doesn't need to be shown support for her progress because they exist to stop her progress. I'm not sure why you didn't catch that when they continually try and get her to stop being so zealous. When the King does so. When Elrond does so. It was a recurring theme that others were continually trying to temper her inability to rest and let it go. Then just when she is about to give in to that pressure she refuses. It is typical "main character" stuff that for some reason you are taking issue with.
    That's my fucking point dude.

    If you're even illustrating how zealous she is and how she's prone to disobeying anyone who 'gets in her way', then why the fuck would I believe she would be the type of person to suddenly turn back and go back to the Elf lands if she's already committed to pushing forward?

    She's portrayed as being zealous the entire episode. Elrond was the only one who was capable of dousing her flames enough to have her even consider getting onto the boat, otherwise she was self-commited to continuing her pursuit.

    Take a moment to reflect on this - Knowing she is as zealous as she is, what reason do you think Galadriel has to not simply abandon the Elves in the north and continue her trek alone?

    It would be reasonable to assume she can't continue without the rest of her company. My criticism is that the show undermines this reasoning, because they show how capable Galadriel is on her own, without the help of anyone, and further showing that her entire company is not only useless to her but holding her back from her goals. That means, based on what the show actually showed us, it would make more sense for her to go off on her own.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 09:04 PM.

  3. #4223
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    They don't have to die to be shown as being a hindrance to her. As I said, the show depicted them as a hindrance. Everything else you're trying to point out to defend this is merely splitting hairs. Dead or not, they're still depicted as having been completely useless to her.
    So they don't have to be shown to be a hindrance for them to be a hindrance? Nothing depicts them as a hindrance unless you are looking through it from a lens of hatred. It isn't splitting hairs to show the flaws in your claim. If they are not killed by an ice troll then they are not useless. She merely stole the kill shot from them. Again something you said is perfectly fine for a main character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I would agree with you that there is no problem with a main character having more ability than other characters who are inconsequential to the plot. We have this very situation play out with Galadriel having more capability than all the survivors on the raft (sans Dude who Saved Her). There is nothing wrong with this.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-08 at 08:58 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #4224
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So they don't have to be shown to be a hindrance for them to be a hindrance? Nothing depicts them as a hindrance unless you are looking through it from a lens of hatred. It isn't splitting hairs to show the flaws in your claim. If they are not killed by an ice troll then they are not useless. She merely stole the kill shot from them. Again something you said is perfectly fine for a main character.
    That is literally not what he said, mate you are bad faith as fuck. He said they didn't have to die to be shown to be a hindrance, read again. They are shown to be a hindrance, she has to wait on them, they always question her and try to get her to turn back, they can't find anything without her, they literally CAN'T EVEN HIT the ice troll that she easily dispatches, and finally they force an ultimatum by putting down their swords and quitting on her. You are so blinded to reality by I don't even know how you are doing it. You even admitted in your last post they are an obstruction to her and what she is doing.

    You can't say she stole the kill shot WHEN THEY DIDN'T EVEN HIT THE TROLL ONCE, THEY ONLY GOT THEIR ASSES KICKED.

    You know what, I am going back to ignoring your posts, you ONLY argue in bad faith and don't do anything to defend your points.
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  5. #4225
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Explain the difference to me in this context. Genuine question. Is it different scale? I would imagine delving into a topic is more than touching upon a topic. But in this context I'm not sure what the difference would be since it's metaphorical.
    The opening Metaphor has two lights one is the false light reflecting on the darkness, the other is the real light, If you go up to the border of the two you can touch the darkness You know that it's a reflection and is false and you can turn away, If you are delving into the darkness you aren't going to get any greater understanding of the light as the light was never real you are just going further away from the light.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You rly think their shit ass "meptaphor" will be something that is only important in the first episode to mean only just that?

    You ahve a lot of faith in the writers who came up with something as dumb as "the rock looks down"
    It doesn't need to only be applied only to the events of the first episode for it to have applied clearly to the first episode.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #4226
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So they don't have to be shown to be a hindrance for them to be a hindrance? Nothing depicts them as a hindrance unless you are looking through it from a lens of hatred. It isn't splitting hairs to show the flaws in your claim. If they are not killed by an ice troll then they are not useless. She merely stole the kill shot from them. Again something you said is perfectly fine for a main character.
    1- Elf falls from fatigue. Galadriel wants to keep pushing forward through the snowstorm, but must hesitate to tend to her
    2- Elf in her company tells her the fortress has never been found, seeding doubt in her goals.
    2- Her second in command continually urges her to return home
    3- She finally finds evidence of Sauron's evil, and the Elves refuse to go further north

    None of these things would be hindrances to her if she were on her own.


    The snow troll fight itself didn't make the Elves a hindrance to her. It merely illustrated how useless they were to her overall.

    She merely stole the kill shot from them.
    What in the world are you talking about? She singlehandedly takes it from 100-0. Stealing the kill shot implies they did any damage to it at all, and they didn't even get any hits off. Perhaps you need to go watch that scene again?

    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 09:24 PM.

  7. #4227
    The forced diversity just makes it feel more like a school play than a big budget movie. With a big budget movie you do as much as you can to alleviate the audience's need to suspend disbelief. In a small production, where they don't have a large budget or large casting pool, you understand going in that there will be people that don't look like the role they are playing, so you suspend disbelief.

    The parallel I would draw is to say how jarring it would be if Wakanda had a lot of European and Asian actors, because diversity. I would be able to deal with it, but it would have ruined immersion and force me to suspend disbelief.

    When you see large contrasts in skin color, that is caused by large geographical distances where the two different peoples haven't mixed for millennia. You can see all over the world currently, that when very dark skinned person and a very light skinned person procreate, their offspring is typically medium skinned. So having large contrasts in skin color in a single population in our world is a recent phenomenon caused by rapid travel, and all of the mixed racial countries in the world will be medium skinned in the next few hundred years. You won't see a big contrast within the same population over time.

    So bringing that back to medieval styled fantasy, it doesn't work to have a very mixed skinned population. Travel during that time is very slow and you won't have people who have been isolated geographically from each other for long enough to create their genetic differences to all-of-a-sudden by very mixed. The Wheel of Time books, IMO, does a good job with introducing diversity by explaining that the folks who look a certain way come from certain geographical locations. Then the series shows up and now a very isolated village is now extremely diverse, and it feels odd.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  8. #4228
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    That is literally not what he said, mate you are bad faith as fuck. He said they didn't have to die to be shown to be a hindrance, read again. They are shown to be a hindrance, she has to wait on them, they always question her and try to get her to turn back, they can't find anything without her, they literally CAN'T EVEN HIT the ice troll that she easily dispatches, and finally they force an ultimatum by putting down their swords and quitting on her. You are so blinded to reality by I don't even know how you are doing it. You even admitted in your last post they are an obstruction to her and what she is doing.
    So a leader being in front is "bad" because everyone has to be in a line so no one is ahead? They are trying to get her to turn back because they are past their mission goals. They are reminding her of that as is implied has happened in the past. That they return after the mission to report their findings and follow new leads. It is bad that a leader gets reminded of their duty if they stray? They are hitting and fighting the ice troll when she shows up and gets the attention because she is the main character.

    Of course they are trying to get her to stop. That is their purpose in the story. They are throw away characters that exist as a compelling reason for her to turn back and head home because she is going off mission. Why is that a bad thing? That her "Second in command" is reminding her of that? You know the one that also wordlessly helps her have a dramatic entrance during the fight?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    1- Elf falls from fatigue. Galadriel wants to keep pushing forward through the snowstorm, but must hesitate to tend to her
    2- Her second in command continually urges her to return home, challenging her own goals to confirm that evil is rid from the world
    3- She finally finds evidence of Sauron's evil, and the Elves refuse to go further north

    None of these things would be hindrances to her if she were on her own.
    Right. Which is her character flaw. That she will push ahead alone. She will be blinded from the dangers by her zeal. Ignore their orders, and the mission, because of that zeal. Her second in command is doing what any good second in command would do. Not blindly follow. They refuse to go further north because they are tired, low on supplies, and are supposed to report back. Something that will get them reinforcements if needed.

    Again all things you said are fine for a main character when dealing with characters inconsequential to the plot. We later learn that there is a strong push amongst the rulers to have her stop. They are afraid she will "fan the flame" of the enemy and make him stronger if she keeps pursuing him. There is a strong theme that you are ignoring simply because you her being stronger then inconsequential characters is such a huge issue.

    She could have easily been on her own but then the reasons for turning back would have to be different. It would require a longer episode to explore those reasons and make them fit. Otherwise we would be in the exact same spot with you finding a reason to hate just for the sake it. Even now when your own words indicated it isn't a problem you still argue that it is a problem. Why? Why can't you listen to yourself if it is as you say and you are not being blinded by hatred?

    Remember this? Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I would agree with you that there is no problem with a main character having more ability than other characters who are inconsequential to the plot.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #4229
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Remember this? Lol.
    Yes, and I still stand by that point because that isn't my actual criticism of the show, smartass.

    She could have easily been on her own but then the reasons for turning back would have to be different. It would require a longer episode to explore those reasons and make them fit.
    Feel free to continue defending the bad writing then, but like I said, that is my criticism of the show as they present it. If your answer is 'well it could be done differently' then yeah, that's my fucking point.

    I'm not exactly sure why you think making a point that certain scenes in this show are counter-intuitive or poorly written equates to hate. I enjoyed the first two episodes, I didn't think they were perfect, and I'm expressing what I think were some key flaws to Galadriel's story arc and what could have been done better. Again, no reason to call that 'hate', unless you think any and all criticism is 'hate'.


    They are hitting and fighting the ice troll when she shows up and gets the attention because she is the main character.
    LOL No the fuck they don't!


    Dude, you're absolutely delusional to the point where you literally revised the entire show to fit your own bogus argument.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 09:44 PM.

  10. #4230
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    The forced diversity just makes it feel more like a school play than a big budget movie. With a big budget movie you do as much as you can to alleviate the audience's need to suspend disbelief. In a small production, where they don't have a large budget or large casting pool, you understand going in that there will be people that don't look like the role they are playing, so you suspend disbelief.

    The parallel I would draw is to say how jarring it would be if Wakanda had a lot of European and Asian actors, because diversity. I would be able to deal with it, but it would have ruined immersion and force me to suspend disbelief.

    When you see large contrasts in skin color, that is caused by large geographical distances where the two different peoples haven't mixed for millennia. You can see all over the world currently, that when very dark skinned person and a very light skinned person procreate, their offspring is typically medium skinned. So having large contrasts in skin color in a single population in our world is a recent phenomenon caused by rapid travel, and all of the mixed racial countries in the world will be medium skinned in the next few hundred years. You won't see a big contrast within the same population over time.

    So bringing that back to medieval styled fantasy, it doesn't work to have a very mixed skinned population. Travel during that time is very slow and you won't have people who have been isolated geographically from each other for long enough to create their genetic differences to all-of-a-sudden by very mixed. The Wheel of Time books, IMO, does a good job with introducing diversity by explaining that the folks who look a certain way come from certain geographical locations. Then the series shows up and now a very isolated village is now extremely diverse, and it feels odd.
    Middle Earth isn't real. Orcs, Dwarves, and Elves are not real. If you can suspend disbelief enough to accept that a dude can fall from the sky like a meteor and not die or use a fucking stick to cast spells, then it shouldn't require a whole lot of mental effort to imagine a non-white elf or dwarf. It's insane to me that you and others are expending this much effort to rationalize disliking non-whites in movies.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  11. #4231
    Can we just not get into this again. Yes, we get it, some people here don't want to see black people in a fantasy show but they're REALLY not veiled racists they swear pinky promise just don't want black people but not because they're racist just... uh... for other reasons that aren't racist, yeah, please, that, thank you.

    We've discussed it enough. Racists gonna racist. If discussion could cure them of it, we'd have gotten there 100 pages ago. Now it's just derailing things.

    Let's get back to how a hero character in a hero show somehow isn't allowed to be more powerful than everyone else, and how showing her motivations should be eschewed in favor of just skipping to the end and putting here where she ends up anyway.

    Or something. It didn't make sense to me 5 pages ago, and it still doesn't, but apparently some people just REALLY hate to learn about why characters do stuff and just want to see them do what they end up doing without learning how they got there.

    Cool.

  12. #4232
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, and I still stand by that point because that isn't my actual criticism of the show, smartass. Feel free to continue defending the bad writing then, but like I said, that is my criticism of the show as they present it.
    It is or it isn't your criticism of the show? Lmao. It is crazy the lengths you go to deny something while also arguing for the something. This is why the lens of hatred taints your arguments but you selectively choose when to apply them depending on you being for or against a certain part.

    Dude, you're absolutely delusional to the point where you literally revised the entire show to fit your own bogus argument.
    They are fighting it. That isn't a delusional thing. They have weapons drawn and are in close proximity even after others have already been hit. Some are even moving toward the troll. If you can watch a video clip of the scene and think they are not fighting then it further shows your selective bias at work. You are choosing to interpret the scene only a certain way even when you directly provide proof of them doing what you claim they are not.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-09 at 12:09 AM.
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  13. #4233
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They are fighting it. That isn't a delusional thing. They have weapons drawn and are in close proximity even after others have already been hit. Some are even moving toward the troll.
    I admire your moxy, but you're still absolutely delusional.

    If you're fine with the scene, then sure, all the power to you. If you're actually arguing they hit the snow troll and getting absolutely wrecked is 'fighting', then yeah we're not on the same page at all.

    It is or it isn't your criticism of the show? Lmao
    It isn't, because you cherry picked and misinterpreted something that I never actually complained about.

    Having a skill gap isn't a problem. Being singularly portrayed as useless or detrimental is a problem.

    Look at the snow troll fight again. Where do they actually contribute to its defeat.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-09 at 12:14 AM.

  14. #4234
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I admire your moxy, but you're still absolutely delusional.
    They are fighting. Weapons drawn when the first two get hit by a chunk of ice. The only one that doesn't appear to have a weapon is the one with the torch that gets hit shortly after the ice chunk. The next one that moves toward the troll has their weapon drawn. The last two were clearly engaging the troll rather then keeping a distance.

    Is a fight now only a time when you win? Take a breather and think about how far you are moving the goal posts in order to not have to admit you were wrong on the internet. The only delusional one here is yourself that refuses the evidence provided by yourself to continue to argue a claim you proved was factually incorrect. Lmao.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #4235
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I admire your moxy, but you're still absolutely delusional.

    If you're fine with the scene, then sure, all the power to you. If you're actually arguing they hit the snow troll and getting absolutely wrecked is 'fighting', then yeah we're not on the same page at all.



    It isn't, because you cherry picked and misinterpreted something that I never actually complained about.

    Having a skill gap isn't a problem. Being singularly portrayed as useless or detrimental is a problem.

    Look at the snow troll fight again. Where do they actually contribute to its defeat.
    You just aren't getting it Triceron, they TOTALLY helped defeat it by tiring it out by letting it beat the shit out of them, geeze.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  16. #4236
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    You just aren't getting it Triceron, they TOTALLY helped defeat it by tiring it out by letting it beat the shit out of them, geeze.
    It not facing Galadriel gave her a distinct advantage for her jump attack. So it is silly to claim their presence had no impact on the fight just because they weren't killing it in one shot. There are plenty of things to dislike about the show with out having to invent things just so you can hate on the show.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #4237
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Is a fight now only a time when you win? Take a breather and think about how far you are moving the goal posts in order to not have to admit you were wrong on the internet. The only delusional one here is yourself that refuses the evidence provided by yourself to continue to argue a claim you proved was factually incorrect. Lmao.
    If you acknowledge that the Elves were losing in a one-sided fight, then you're acknowledging the exact problem with that my criticism is aimed at.

    Whatever else you're saying to try to spin your words around to imply they did more than just get wiped out by the Troll is pretty much delusion. 'Look, they didn't die. See, they're weren't useless after all!' No, the meaning of usefulness is relative to quality of their contribution to the fight, and it's pretty clear that they contributed nothing.

    Even as a thought experiment, did you think Galadriel needed any of the Elves' help to handle the Snow Troll?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-09 at 12:37 AM.

  18. #4238
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It not facing Galadriel gave her a distinct advantage for her jump attack. So it is silly to claim their presence had no impact on the fight just because they weren't killing it in one shot. There are plenty of things to dislike about the show with out having to invent things just so you can hate on the show.
    THEY LITERALLY LANDED 0 BLOWS ON IT, Galadriel wasn't even close to getting hit and landed every blow, she needed no help at all to deal with it, they would have died to it. STop lying and inventing shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  19. #4239
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you acknowledge that the Elves were losing in a one-sided fight, then you're acknowledging the exact problem with that my criticism is aimed at.
    You said it was delusional to call it a fight. Which is it? A one-sided fight or not a fight? Isn't it weird that I am putting a spin on words by calling it a fight when you yourself are not by calling it a fight? You pick and choose what argument to accept depending on if it is for or against your own argument. If it supports your argument then it is fine to say. If it is against your argument then it is wrong for reasons you invent.

    You are creating double standards and acting in bad faith so you never have to be wrong. Again you also prove your argument false by saying they contributed nothing. One provided a ramp from his sword for Galadriel to jump from. The others took the focus of the troll so she could catch it by surprise. By virtue of your own words, and video you provided, they were not useless. Yet you'll ignore that so you can hate just for the sake of it.

    She likely didn't need help to handle a snow troll but that thought experiment has not relevance to anything being discussed. There are plenty of what ifs but they don't matter to the story that was told. You have enough problems accepting the actual facts with out moving the goal posts to those what ifs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    THEY LITERALLY LANDED 0 BLOWS ON IT, Galadriel wasn't even close to getting hit and landed every blow, she needed no help at all to deal with it, they would have died to it. STop lying and inventing shit.
    I haven't lied or invented anything. You can still be in a fight with out landing a blow. Galadriel caught it by surprise because it was focused on crushing one of the elves. Why would she need help in a swift attack? Why is it a problem that she needs no help? She is the main character of this story and even in the lore more powerful then others.

    You also can't say they would have died to it because we never saw a longer fight. I'm curious did you have a problem that not every elf could replicate Legolas in the Jackson trilogies? Or is it only a problem now that one elf is more powerful then the rest?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  20. #4240
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If you acknowledge that the Elves were losing in a one-sided fight, then you're acknowledging the exact problem with that my criticism is aimed at.

    Whatever else you're saying to try to spin your words around to imply they did more than just get wiped out by the Troll is pretty much delusion. 'Look, they didn't die. See, they're weren't useless after all!' No, the meaning of usefulness is relative to quality of their contribution to the fight, and it's pretty clear that they contributed nothing.

    Even as a thought experiment, did you think Galadriel needed any of the Elves' help to handle the Snow Troll?
    stop replying to him, he obviously doesn't read or chooses to misinterpret every criticism of the show to fit his agenda, he thinks when I said the elfs are useless that means I said they weren't even in the fight. Guy is trolling hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

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