Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Wrong.

It shows she didn't need them FOR THIS FIGHT.

It's the only fight that counts, and it's the only fight we will ever see them in.

There's really no excuse to a poorly established introduction to Galadriel and her company. I don't see her being a strong leader, and her being so brash and irrational it really makes me wonder how this particular incarnation of Galadriel was able to ascend the ranks of leadership and be given a role of commander. The show establishes that she has all the qualities of a highly capable and highly skilled soldier, not a strong military leader. And if she was always like this, did she ascended the ranks purely because of her skill, or was it because the king merely favoured her? It's hard to tell what the show actually intends to establish with her character being a high-ranking commander, outside of the ability for her to pull her rank when she's feeling overconfident.

Does RoP Gil-galad have poor judgement in military commander choices? Seems like that's what the writers suggest. She'd be dead or locked up many times now, of her own accord, if she didn't have such strong plot armor.

[Orby]

Episode 3

So far straight off the bat the weakest episode, too much Galadriel for my liking. The story is 3/8 ways in and still nothing has happened, its just more set up. I hoped we'd get more conflict, and progress. Also I know the common complain is the Harfoots are forced in and not interesting, but by god I think they are great. But the shows biggest problem is that its so slow, I can imagine a lot of people who are interested in this show would probably be losing interest around this point. I do think the biggest thing for me this episode was seeing Numenor and its people being exactly like how I imagined, selfish and full of themselves. The Arondir stuff was the best part of this episode, though making me care about his friends dying is hard as we hardly knew them, they barely developed their main cast and now you want me to care for the side characters?. I did like Captain Elendil though, or at least the guy that plays him.

Next week we are halfway through season 1. They need to move this forward. The show is following 4 main arcs and all of them are moving at a snails pace, although we may be getting some progess with the Arondir arc next week at least. Still like the show for the sights of things I know from the lore but that's only going to carry me so far.

4/10

Past reviews.
Episode 1: 6/10
Episode 2: 7/10
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53897065

[Syegfryed]

Oh man, i wonder how they will do the Numeors, cause i don't think there is enough stuff from the appendix, they will have to pull everything up from their ass, and everything up their ass so far was being shit

If it's the only think we see, how about we restrict our statements to what we actually see. Instead of going off of what we see, and then apply that to everything we DON'T see.

....

But thats precisely the only thing we see, her troop being a bunch of useless, weaklings dumbasses

1.They don't help in anything useful
2.They don't do anything relevant
3.they don't find anything important
3. They don't know anything about anything

1.They do know how be a burden of her
2.They do know how to annoy her by saying she should stop

THATS.IT

You are just assuming they are in fact, a lot of useful, they just didn't show to be in this fight, except you have shit to back that up, because the show does not show that, in fact, it shows the exact opposite: 8 elves fucked over by a troll


Assuming they were useful in other moments, its straight up ignoring your own statement that we should restrict to what "actually see"

[Biomega]

But thats precisely the only thing we see, her troop being a bunch of useless, weaklings dumbasses
[...]
You are just assuming they are in fact, a lot of useful, they just didn't show to be in this fight

Wrong.

I am saying "we see them useless (or at the very least: not very useful) in this one fight" and "Galadriel took them with her intentionally, and chose to remain with them when they decided they had enough and wanted to go home".

That's it. Because those are the things we see.

YOU are going from "we don't see them do anything useful in the scenes shown" to "therefore they WOULDN'T BE useful in ANY SCENE shown". Which is NOT something that we see.

[Syegfryed]

Wrong.

"Wrong" he says

I am saying "we see them useless (or at the very least: not very useful) in this one fight" and "Galadriel took them with her intentionally, and chose to remain with them when they decided they had enough and wanted to go home".

That's it. Because those are the things we see.

You just confirmed, that they are useless

But you, somehow, you want to flower the argument to say "i-i-ts just this one i swear, there is nothing else to talk! don't imply things!!" which is extremely weird when the show itself needs you to imply a ton of shit and actually have read the book or the appendix to know something.

I get it that you don't want to be too rough with the show, that's understandable, but bear in mind this is not a third-grade low budget fantasy show, it has a name, it had hype it had millions of dollars in it, and its crap.


You know what this show remembers me? Eragon movie, same level of crap

YOU are going from "we don't see them do anything useful in the scenes shown" to "therefore they WOULDN'T BE useful in ANY SCENE shown". Which is NOT something that we see.

I mean, again, you are assuming that, no one is saying "they would not be useful in any scene shown" , that does fucking matter, because they will never be in a scene ever again, what matter is what we see and what happens, Once again, take your statement at heart, and restrict yourself in what we see.

We see eight elves being a bunch of dumbasses, weaklings and useless. Thats it.

[downnola]

Just cause "magic" doesn't mean you get to break all the rules of physics and science. And sure you can do whatever you want when you are writing fiction. But if it's something that breaks our understanding of universal laws, it helps to explain it. Making Middle Earth look like the United States seems like an odd choice.

Magic is an unnatural, mysterious, and/or supernatural power that breaks the rules of physics and science by definition. Using necromancy, for example, to turn a human into an undead wraith is not explainable by science. Furthermore, there's no real explanation for where Sauron gets his power, but it's just taken for granted by the readers that he inherently has these powers and can also manage to transmit this power to a set of rings to mind-control men, elves, and dwarves and bend them to his will. What rational explanation do you have that follows the rules of physics, biology, genetics, and chemistry to explain any of that? You can't and it's not required to do so because we're talking about a high-fantasy story set in a fictionalized setting. Every aspect of Middle-Earth does not need a scientific explanation just because human culture, which is not limited to Germanic, Nordic, and Celtic cultures, influenced the books.

Mundane details like the characters skin color are inconsequential to the story being told. If anything, seeing people harp so loudly about superficial details like this tells me that they watch these movies/shows and see everything that's on the surface but are incapable of internalizing anything else in them. I have yet to find something that captures the irrationality of racism and bigotry so perfectly as the childish reaction when anyone with dark skin is cast in a film with a turbo-nerd fandom surrounding it.

I mean, I guess you folks would have been OK if they made Wakanda reflect the racial diversity of the United States, but it would have seemed like a really odd choice to me.

This comparison makes no sense. The Blank Panther superhero was purposely created to add diversity to Marvel comics because at that time there were only white, American-centric characters in their stories. The skin color and background of Black Panther and the citizens of Wakanda are not minor details in the comic: it's the entire basis for the comic itself. So yeah, that's an extremely bad analogy.

[Triceron]

Wrong.

I am saying "we see them useless (or at the very least: not very useful) in this one fight" and "Galadriel took them with her intentionally, and chose to remain with them when they decided they had enough and wanted to go home".

If you know anything about storytelling in movies, the first 15 minutes of a movie is the most important part of any movie. It sets up everything the audience needs to know to understand what the rest of the movie or series is about. It sets up the tone, the setting, the characters, and what the audience should expect out of the full ride.

There are certain things the first 20 minute intro of RoP does right. It establishes Galadriel as a strong and powerful individual, with far greater skill and traits than the average Elf (her companions as a point of comparison). It establishes the world has a growing darkness, and that she's set on a path to find Sauron. Having it take place in the far north tells us that this story will span globally to the far reaches of the world. Having the environment be the most dangerous thing to the company establishes that the world itself can be dangerous, and there's more to worry about than just 'the bad guys'.

A LOT of information can be crammed into an intro, and this is all the job of the writers to make sure all the necessary information is established and understood by the audience.

That is why so much of the criticism is focused on the snow troll fight. While it just seems like one semi-important scene that people are making too much of a big deal out of, it's actually setting a narrative tone that will persist throughout the series. And in the case of RoP specifically, there are flaws in the introduction that will be carried forward into the narrative, like establishing Galadriel's character as a high-ranking military commander while portraying her to be a hot-tempered leader who disobeys commands, cares little about the wellbeing of her troops, and does not heed any of the advice of her peers. To me, her commander rank feels unauthentic in the intro, and every time that she 'pulls rank' in the future, it's going to remind me that it still feels unauthentic.

And guess what, we're into Episode 3 and she's acting the exact same hot-tempered and irrational way, and it's still gets her into trouble, only for her to get out of it because of the helpful hand of dei ex machina. Her character is literally written to push people away, but somehow she still gets rewarded and respected by the same people she pushes away. It's like she's got the magical ability to fail upwards through the series.

[Biomega]

You just confirmed, that they are useless

...in that one fight.

You can't just cut off a sentence. That's rude.

[Orby]

This weeks episode the first 30 minutes were a bit of a slog. But man do the Galadriel scenes not do it for me. I enjoyed the Arondir scenes this episode at least there seems to be a bit more movement on that arc.

My review for those that missed it due to the pointless bitching about nothing going on in this thread.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53904070

[Biomega]

Honestly, I think this is it for me.

This episode was boring AF, had more of that terrible acting and nonsensical writing, and REALLY makes me wonder where that billion dollars went. Because it sure didn't go to people making sure this was a quality TV show.

I barely made it through this one, and I'm not going to watch the next. They had their chance, but this just isn't it for me. I have other things to do with my time.

[Kumorii]

This weeks episode the first 30 minutes were a bit of a slog. But man do the Galadriel scenes not do it for me. I enjoyed the Arondir scenes this episode at least there seems to be a bit more movement on that arc.

My review for those that missed it due to the pointless bitching about nothing going on in this thread.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53904070

Read that, and it didn't give me much hope.
I will watch it tonight after work.

I think Season 1 is kind of doomed considering Galadriel will be the focal point most of the time I imagine.
Personally I wanna see more about Celebrimbor because that's the thing I'm mostly interested in atm.
And if what you say is true that not much is happening. It almost start to feel they use Season 1 as a setup... which is a weird decision.

I re-state what I stated earlier. The show have great potential. If they focus on the right stuff, but atm it doesn't look like they are.
If you cut out the Galadriel stuff it's a 6/10 for me.

[Sialina]

Magic is an unnatural, mysterious, and/or supernatural power that breaks the rules of physics and science by definition. Using necromancy, for example, to turn a human into an undead wraith is not explainable by science. Furthermore, there's no real explanation for where Sauron gets his power, but it's just taken for granted by the readers that he inherently has these powers and can also manage to transmit this power to a set of rings to mind-control men, elves, and dwarves and bend them to his will. What rational explanation do you have that follows the rules of physics, biology, genetics, and chemistry to explain any of that? You can't and it's not required to do so because we're talking about a high-fantasy story set in a fictionalized setting. Every aspect of Middle-Earth does not need a scientific explanation just because human culture, which is not limited to Germanic, Nordic, and Celtic cultures, influenced the books.

Mundane details like the characters skin color are inconsequential to the story being told. If anything, seeing people harp so loudly about superficial details like this tells me that they watch these movies/shows and see everything that's on the surface but are incapable of internalizing anything else in them. I have yet to find something that captures the irrationality of racism and bigotry so perfectly as the childish reaction when anyone with dark skin is cast in a film with a turbo-nerd fandom surrounding it.



This comparison makes no sense. The Blank Panther superhero was purposely created to add diversity to Marvel comics because at that time there were only white, American-centric characters in their stories. The skin color and background of Black Panther and the citizens of Wakanda are not minor details in the comic: it's the entire basis for the comic itself. So yeah, that's an extremely bad analogy.

Funny you should mention that last bit, because Tolkien created Lord of the rings because he wanted there to he a history of the ancient English past.
"The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings were conceived as the original stories behind an ancient but long lost English mythology"
So he created LOTR much for the same reason Wakanda was created.
Perhaps we should leave both alone, yes?

And the first part I very much disagree with, first, lets both agree that if something is fiction, anything is possible when you are the author. If you write something set during WWII you could have Aliens come save the day or any number of other scenarios.
Most writing, doesn't matter if you have magic or not, adheres to a set of rules, and if those rules are broken within that story, it takes people out of it.
The start of a movie, franchise or series will set the tone for what we can expect.
In a serious racing movie like Senna, we expect a different level of realism than we do in Fast and the Furious 7.
Fantasy generally comes in 2 or 3 types, depending on how you look at it, you have child/teen fantasy, this focuses more on fantastical elements, it's usually not internally consistent, but can be a lot of fun to watch.
Then you have mature fantasy, by this I don't mean mature people should like it more, but this type of fantasy generally sets out with a premise like "we are on a different planet, there are Elves Orcs and Trolls here" after accepting the mutual premise we expect it to be a place where things should happen as they would if the place was real.
There are often discussions within this last type of fantasy if certain things would really happen or not.
The original trilogy would be cheapened if superman showed up to help Frodo destroy the ring or if Gandalf could cast a spell powerful enough to destroy Mordor.

[InfiniteCharger]

It did unless you are using a definition for "fight" beyond the normal one. It doesn't demolish anything I've said though because those things do exist in fantasy works. It is silly to pretend that a single character is never important to a fight or battle. Have you never heard of a single champion to decide a battle? You can't say the elves don't the basics of dungeon combat. Not to mention how flawed your video game example is because even World-First caliber players can still make mistakes. Something you are claiming can't happen to a group of elves that are tired and pushed to their limit after being stalked by the Troll.

Of course she is the Hero. It is her story. She is the main character. Did you think otherwise? Her troop members are ultimately unimportant to the story and likely will never appear again. At least as the "same" people even if the actors are reused as extras. It is silly that you think fighting together for hundreds of years means that they always perform at peak efficiency and skill. None of them died or were shown to be even moderately wounded.

None of those fights you posted showed one person winning a fight as they were all larger battles with multiple enemies and heroes. I cannot continue this discussion with you since you obviously refuse to see reality. If you liked the scene in this series then fine. But to actually disagree with what was actually shown is completely different and not worth my time. And really all the things to be said have been said and it is pointless to just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

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Because the writers/director wanted to show that Galadriel was more than just talk? That she was actually a competent warrior?

I have no idea why this is even a discussion.

Main character does main character stuff. It's not even that remarkable. Especially not in the context of a Tolkien elf main character...who have been shown on film to be capable of this shit for two decades now.

Most people understand that and aren't disagreeing with the concept. It is the execution they are taking issue with....... But whatever.
No need to beat this horse to death.

[rhorle]

If your goal is high-level discussion, how do you think calling out stupid criticism gets people to stop?

It doesn't. Why should it be left to go unchecked? Remember you are the one hiding behind "good discussion" BS because that is the direction you've taken the discussion and are focusing on now. It is something that has no real way for you to lose by your own words like the past "high level" discussions you say I don't want. Isn't that strange that I've engaged in those discussions and it wasn't just to stir stuff up and troll?

That trolling accusation didn't happen until you proved your own argument wrong? Lmao.

- - - Updated - - -

None of those fights you posted showed one person winning a fight as they were all larger battles with multiple enemies and heroes.

Again, False. Killing their target is winning their fight. You even acknowledge they won the fight because you mention how the fights shown are part of a larger battle. The only one refusing to see reality here is yourself who will call it a fight in a larger battle while denying it is a fight. I haven't disagreed with what was actually shown at all. You are trying to infer things about the scene that were not shown. Remember you made it about epic multi-person fight scenes as being a core to high fantasy and trying to bring Video games into it. Things that weren't shown in the Ice Troll scene.

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The original trilogy would be cheapened if superman showed up to help Frodo destroy the ring or if Gandalf could cast a spell powerful enough to destroy Mordor.

You mean like having Tom Bombadil? Glorfindel? Or "enchantments" from Gandalf or others like at the Ford of Bruinen that save the day? The Lord of the Rings is full of "super powered" characters that just show up to save the day. Isn't the entire premise that the "normal" guys have to do things because the super powered guys on each side wouldn't be able to? Do some get a good enough set up so it isn't that big of a deal? Sure. But it is strange to act like those things don't happen in LotR or other things you classify as "Mature Fantasy".

[Zoibert the Bear]

They actually made me dislike Galadriel, what the fuck.

Why did they turn such a likeable character into an unsufferable cunt? Rest is OK

[Sialina]

It doesn't. Why should it be left to go unchecked? Remember you are the one hiding behind "good discussion" BS because that is the direction you've taken the discussion and are focusing on now. It is something that has no real way for you to lose by your own words like the past "high level" discussions you say I don't want. Isn't that strange that I've engaged in those discussions and it wasn't just to stir stuff up and troll?

That trolling accusation didn't happen until you proved your own argument wrong? Lmao.

- - - Updated - - -



Again, False. Killing their target is winning their fight. You even acknowledge they won the fight because you mention how the fights shown are part of a larger battle. The only one refusing to see reality here is yourself who will call it a fight in a larger battle while denying it is a fight. I haven't disagreed with what was actually shown at all. You are trying to infer things about the scene that were not shown. Remember you made it about epic multi-person fight scenes as being a core to high fantasy and trying to bring Video games into it. Things that weren't shown in the Ice Troll scene.

- - - Updated - - -



You mean like having Tom Bombadil? Glorfindel? Or "enchantments" from Gandalf or others like at the Ford of Bruinen that save the day? The Lord of the Rings is full of "super powered" characters that just show up to save the day. Isn't the entire premise that the "normal" guys have to do things because the super powered guys on each side wouldn't be able to? Do some get a good enough set up so it isn't that big of a deal? Sure. But it is strange to act like those things don't happen in LotR or other things you classify as "Mature Fantasy".

Some of the incidents are built up enough to not interfere, others less so, I mentioned the eagles before, but I think one needs to be pretty arrogant to think to improve on Tolkiens works by remodeling the world.
There are problems in most fictional settings, but we don't solve that by adding more.
Deus ex machina is generally frowned upon as a solution to a problem in fiction nowadays, but it used to be the goto in old greek plays. If anything we are moving away from having Deus ex be a valid approach to a story problem.

[s_bushido]

Deus ex machina

The hero running in from the other room to kill the thing that's attacking her party isn't a "deus ex machina"... It's neither unlikely, given the feats we have seen elf warriors accomplish over 6 movies in this setting, nor is it the resolution of some dilemma that otherwise seems impossible. Don't use phrases like this when you clearly have no idea what they mean.

This argument is all the more ridiculous given the fight scene in the most recent episode. Demonstrating pretty clearly that even an elf who is exhausted/dehydrated, and has to scrounge for weapons, can pretty easily defeat an otherwise terrifying opponent...

[rhorle]

Some of the incidents are built up enough to not interfere, others less so, I mentioned the eagles before, but I think one needs to be pretty arrogant to think to improve on Tolkiens works by remodeling the world.

They are doing a TV show. The work has to be changed because of the medium and there are a lot of filler in the books that wouldn't work to cover 1:1. So it is silly to call changes only arrogance when they have to make the story work for the format. Not to mention they are telling a story based on hints and suggestions from Tolkien so it isn't "improving" but adding.

Dues Ex Machina isn't frowned on or avoided. It is only instances that are properly integrated with in the story that are a problem. The low effort things. Like I said Tolkien uses these same things you keep saying are bad for mature fantasy while at the same time crafting them in a way where it isn't a big deal that they appear. Like the river flooding to stop the Nazgul. It is a example of DEM (or at least "plot armor") but fits well enough in the setting to not be a bad thing.

[InfiniteCharger]

Again, False. Killing their target is winning their fight. You even acknowledge they won the fight because you mention how the fights shown are part of a larger battle. The only one refusing to see reality here is yourself who will call it a fight in a larger battle while denying it is a fight. I haven't disagreed with what was actually shown at all. You are trying to infer things about the scene that were not shown. Remember you made it about epic multi-person fight scenes as being a core to high fantasy and trying to bring Video games into it. Things that weren't shown in the Ice Troll scene/

OK. Fine. Believe what you want. It is pointless to continue because you and I see things totally different, as in literally seeing different things in the same video. Legolas is not shown winning the war of Pelennor Fields or Helms Deep by himself. I am not sure how you believe that is even remotely the same as 10 elves vs 1 ice troll. Tolkien did not write Helms Deep as a victory due to Legolas by himself killing everything and it is odd how you are stuck on twisting reality to suggest that it does. Those are epic battles that he wrote where almost everyone is heroic in their own way, where as this battle shows only 1 person being heroic and everyone else being mostly useless.

So lets just leave this where it is.

[Sialina]

The hero running in from the other room to kill the thing that's attacking her party isn't a "deus ex machina"... It's neither unlikely, given the feats we have seen elf warriors accomplish over 6 movies in this setting, nor is it the resolution of some dilemma that otherwise seems impossible. Don't use phrases like this when you clearly have no idea what they mean.

This argument is all the more ridiculous given the fight scene in the most recent episode. Demonstrating pretty clearly that even an elf who is exhausted/dehydrated, and has to scrounge for weapons, can pretty easily defeat an otherwise terrifying opponent...

No you are right, thing is, I wasn't talking about that scene so no idea why you mention it. The problem with that scene is simply that it's shit.

They are doing a TV show. The work has to be changed because of the medium and there are a lot of filler in the books that wouldn't work to cover 1:1. So it is silly to call changes only arrogance when they have to make the story work for the format. Not to mention they are telling a story based on hints and suggestions from Tolkien so it isn't "improving" but adding.

Dues Ex Machina isn't frowned on or avoided. It is only instances that are properly integrated with in the story that are a problem. The low effort things. Like I said Tolkien uses these same things you keep saying are bad for mature fantasy while at the same time crafting them in a way where it isn't a big deal that they appear. Like the river flooding to stop the Nazgul. It is a example of DEM (or at least "plot armor") but fits well enough in the setting to not be a bad thing.

Tolkien in not an island, he had inspirations of his own, writing has evolved since his time, and will keep evolving into the future. That doesn't mean you get to put up a "Shakespeare as improved by rhorle" play. If it doesn't please you, make something of your own. If you put on a play by Shakespeare and fill it with Marvel jokes and still announce it as "Shakespeare but improved" you will just have a very confused play that neither Shakespeare fans nor Marvel fans will enjoy despite both being massive successes.