1. #4261
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    So yes they could have her go her hunt down Sauron alone at the start of the episode but that would miss the whole theme of the episode.
    Are you literally arguing there was no other way to illustrate that point without having her sent to Valinor and jumping ship? That there is no way to punctuate that into a solo journey story?

    Really? This is your argument?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 05:33 PM.

  2. #4262
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If she went alone nothing would change, it would not be certain death, the show make it prtty clear she is stronger than everyone else and does not get tired

    the group is 100% there to be dumb and weak so she can be intelligent and strong, and to make some nonsensical small talk about the plot
    If you want to look at this show in the dumbest possible way and imagine situations that it clearly shows not happening then have fun but it makes it absolutely pointless discussing things with you.

  3. #4263
    Banned Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Which enhances the point that she doesn't need her team...
    Reason why I brought this scene up is because it would be perfect to actually establish some form of relationship between the two that would show they actually do need each other. But instead the scene shows the opposite, as you even seem to agree on.

    Not even sure what your argument is.
    The point isn’t that she needs those specific elf’s it’s that she can’t do it alone and needs support which is why when they’re support is taken she try’s to convince others that she is right and when no one will
    Support her she falters and almost abandons her quest only to redouble her efforts and then find her self still needing the support of others even though she said she’d go alone if she needed to.


    The rock climb scene shows that her squad is still supporting each other that they aren’t just useless body’s but that even though they stand with each other she has been driving them away from her which comes to a head after the troll.

  4. #4264
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But that's my POINT!

    They COULD do any alternative to have her placed in Numenor, but THIS is the way they're doing it and it's absolutely counter-intuitive. It makes the entire company of Elves pointless to her story, and the entire story we're given so far is a roundabout way to place her near Numenor. There's literally no other reason I see that makes sense out of putting her out in sea and having her jump ship to swim it alone when she's that far out in sea. I think that there could have been any number of alternatives that would work, and wouldn't be as ridiculous as what we ended up getting.

    I even wrote this in a reply to another discussion:

    In my mind, that turning point (to go off alone) merely starts earlier in the series. Like, literally after the Troll scene, she lets her party go back to Elf lands, maybe we get some filler scenes with her struggling on her own and having flashbacks thinking back to conversations with Elrond, and finally they cap it off with her finding her journey taking her to Numenor some how, like finding Sauron's symbol on a Numenorean's corpse and leading her to go there.
    Except doing it this way allows them to show her refusing to return to the Undying Lands because she feels it is her duty to continue opposing Sauron in Middle-earth which is an incredibly important part of her story that they don't have the license for.

  5. #4265
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The point isn’t that she needs those specific elf’s it’s that she can’t do it alone and needs support which is why when they’re support is taken she try’s to convince others that she is right and when no one will
    Support her she falters and almost abandons her quest only to redouble her efforts and then find her self still needing the support of others even though she said she’d go alone if she needed to.
    And this would be a good scene to actually SHOW that she does indeed need support.
    Which is the entire point of the argument. Don't IMPLY she needs support, SHOW she needs support. So far the entire opening scene shows she needs nothing of the sort.

    She goes back to Lindon because she can't do it alone, I'm not arguing that isn't the case. Problem is the scenes beforehand showed she needed no support, so why go back because she needs support? That's what makes little sense.


    The rock climb scene shows that her squad is still supporting each other that they aren’t just useless body’s but that even though they stand with each other she has been driving them away from her which comes to a head after the troll.
    That entire scene reinforces they are useless bodies. Galadriel not needing them and then they need to help each other just double down on that fact. They can go back, Galadriel can continue, because they have done absolutely nothing to help her and in fact they just show that they slow her down. Tripling down on them being detrimental.
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  6. #4266
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The rock climb scene shows that her squad is still supporting each other that they aren’t just useless body’s but that even though they stand with each other she has been driving them away from her which comes to a head after the troll.
    Eh, watch the scene again. It didn't show any team work at all that would have supported Galadriel whatsoever.

    None of them used ropes to connect to each other, they were all individually climbing. Any efforts to show teamwork actually gets shrugged off, especially when you see Elves offering their hands to pull up their friend and he just shrugs them aside. And to make it even more damning, we see Galadriel way far ahead of all the other Elves, illustrating that she's physically superior them all and doesn't even need to wait for them to catch up.

    Sometimes I wonder if we even watched the same show.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 05:48 PM.

  7. #4267
    Banned Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Are you literally arguing there was no other way to illustrate that point without having her sent to Valinor and jumping ship? That there is no way to punctuate that into a solo journey story?

    Really? This is your argument?
    Did I say there was literally no other way to make that point but the ship?

  8. #4268
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Quite the opposite. I got the impression she only went back cause the rest of the party forced her to. She dealt with the environment and enemies just fine, unlike the rest.
    They said she could go on but it would have to be alone. She chose not to and instead wanted more troops.

    And then they show us she's convinced she can swim across an ocean.
    If you watch the scene as Galadriel is approaching the Shadowy Sea it is intercut with ominous forces at work (I think the meteor, the sword and the dying leaf.) It is these that cause her to turn back at the very last moment at which point there is little choice other than diving into the sea and putting herself in the hands of Ulmo or Ossë.

  9. #4269
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Except doing it this way allows them to show her refusing to return to the Undying Lands because she feels it is her duty to continue opposing Sauron in Middle-earth which is an incredibly important part of her story that they don't have the license for.
    It is a ridiculous and quite unbelievable way to show her refusing to return to the Undying Lands. That's been the crux of my criticism here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Did I say there was literally no other way to make that point but the ship?
    You imply it by saying they could do that but it would miss the point of the episode.

    You couldn't imagine a scenario where they have her off alone and still be able to hit the same points? Cuz that is literally what you're arguing here. That somehow, any alternative would miss the point they were trying to make, as if it were the only way to make it.

    I'm literally criticizing the episode for being counter-intuitive to making a point that could have been established at the very start of the show. Everything else that you're talking about could just as easily been formulated through flashback scenes or new scenes that involve her struggles alone. The only difference would be that she isn't smack-dab in the middle of the sea by the end of the episode.

    Her choosing to go alone cements the reflection metaphor. Like I said, establishing this right after the Troll fight would have served the exact same purpose, and punch the idea that Gil-Galad and her company are the ones chasing a reflection while she is delving into the darkness to gain the wisdom to find the true light. In both situations, the reflection metaphor is internalized through her own flashback, and could be revealed in her story at any time.

    She could go off alone at any given moment and the point of the story would remain exactly the same. They could literally start off the episode showing her alone, and struggling alone. Then have her travels with her company be slowly revealed in chunks as a series of flashbacks, with the stones metaphor and her choice to leave them behind being the full reveal for why she abandoned them. Done.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 06:01 PM.

  10. #4270
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Dude on the boat rescues her, supports her idea that evil is still out there and saves her while sinking.
    oh you mean totally not sauron.. that does not make any sense though.

  11. #4271
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If you want to look at this show in the dumbest possible way and imagine situations that it clearly shows not happening then have fun but it makes it absolutely pointless discussing things with you.
    Thankfully i don't need to look at it at the dumbest possible way, the show already made the job to be made in the dumbest way possible, but sure, try to attack me cause you can't salvage this shitshow

  12. #4272
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Thankfully i don't need to look at it at the dumbest possible way, the show already made the job to be made in the dumbest way possible, but sure, try to attack me cause you can't salvage this shitshow
    It's kind of ironic. Having to imagine things happening outside what's shown for it to make sense is to look at it in the most dumb way possible.
    Literally every bad series or movie can be made good and make sense if we ignore what's shown and just imagine the good bits.
    It's dumb in the "positive" direction this time though.
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  13. #4273
    Banned Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    And this would be a good scene to actually SHOW that she does indeed need support.
    Which is the entire point of the argument. Don't IMPLY she needs support, SHOW she needs support. So far the entire opening scene shows she needs nothing of the sort.

    She goes back to Lindon because she can't do it alone, I'm not arguing that isn't the case. Problem is the scenes beforehand showed she needed no support, so why go back because she needs support? That's what makes little sense.




    That entire scene reinforces they are useless bodies. Galadriel not needing them and then they need to help each other just double down on that fact. They can go back, Galadriel can continue, because they have done absolutely nothing to help her and in fact they just show that they slow her down. Tripling down on them being detrimental.
    Yes they could have used the ice wall to show them supporting her but they instead used it to show her not caring about her troops and that while the squad is standing together she is driven to not make sure they are already. This then shows up again when they are in the snow storm and after multiple calls she does actually turn back to show that she’s not fully heart less to the well being of her men.

    Then finally when met with the ultimatum of going on alone she chooses to go back with the Mark to try and drum up new troops for her cause.

    Narratively the scenes exist to show the divides between her and her men while also showing that she’s not so far gone that she will abandon one or think she can go on alone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    we see Galadriel way far ahead of all the other Elves, illustrating that she's physically superior them all and doesn't even need to wait for them to catch up.
    I’d say the the rest of the Squad waiting and showing concern about each other shows that Galadriel isn’t thinking about her men and there well being as she’s focused on pushing on.

    This then comes up a couple scenes later in the snow storm where she does actually go back and help showing she’s not completely alienated by there inability to keep up.

  14. #4274
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    It's kind of ironic. Having to imagine things happening outside what's shown for it to make sense is to look at it in the most dumb way possible.
    Literally every bad series or movie can be made good and make sense if we ignore what's shown and just imagine the good bits.
    It's dumb in the "positive" direction this time though.
    Do you agree with Syegfryed that exhausted Elves being battered by a troll shows they are all useless dumbasses, and that Galadriel returning to Lindon for reinforcements shows that she could have carried on the hunt successfully alone?

  15. #4275
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    And this would be a good scene to actually SHOW that she does indeed need support.
    Which is the entire point of the argument. Don't IMPLY she needs support, SHOW she needs support. So far the entire opening scene shows she needs nothing of the sort.
    Is this about the ice troll scene? The one where her support "distracted" it and gave her a "platform" to attack from? This just you, and others, blinding themselves for the sake of propping up a silly argument. You also ignore that they are slowing her down. Their dedication to their sacred task is wilting. This is like saying that everyone in Jacksons trilogy is useless because Frodo ultimately didn't need them for his quest as he does most of it without their help. Yet we know that isn't the case.

    You've reached a conclusion despite the scene and are forcing the lens of bias in order to maintain that conclusion.
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  16. #4276
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    lol, wtf dude.

    My entire criticism is based on what we've seen so far, not a criticism of the entire season. Not sure why this gets your panties in a knot.

    You're the one who jumped in to respond to me, I didn't force you to read any of my comments. If you can't deal with me expressing my criticisms, feel free to fuck off.
    You're the one in here with knotted panties, most other people are telling you to chill and let it simmer.

    You're bitching that they haven't shown character arcs setting up where we're at while disregarding that you're literally at the start of the story. This is where things are starting from. The snow troll is the baseline. The useless elf warriors are the baseline. Galadriel being a hotheaded lone wolf is the baseline. It is what it is.

    No one knows where it's going to go yet, but it's stupid to cry that it's not fully set up by episode 2.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2022-09-08 at 06:29 PM.
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    Because fuck you, that's why.

  17. #4277
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Do you agree with Syegfryed that exhausted Elves being battered by a troll shows they are all useless dumbasses, and that Galadriel returning to Lindon for reinforcements shows that she could have carried on the hunt successfully alone?
    The scenes shows she never needed the group to begin with and they were only slowing her down.

    Her returning because she can't carry on alone is the conflict of what's shown and what's being told.
    Hence people complaint about the scenes. Because they are bad and at odds which each others narrative.
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  18. #4278
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I’d say the the rest of the Squad waiting and showing concern about each other shows that Galadriel isn’t thinking about her men and there well being as she’s focused on pushing on.

    This then comes up a couple scenes later in the snow storm where she does actually go back and help showing she’s not completely alienated by there inability to keep up.
    Yes, but the point is whether those scenes are all necessary to the point.

    I'm not criticizing her going back for the Elf that fell after she realized that's what happened. I'm not criticizing her having some semblance of instinctual team work with the springboard scene. I'm making a point that there wasn't really anything there to show that her team actually supports her, or that she even needs them considering the show has focused on exemplifying her skills and talents as being well beyond any one in her company, which begs the question why she needs them in the first place.

    Cuz the show literally does not establish it. The show expects you to assume she needs them just because they're there, while having every scene depict them as inferior or detrimental in some way. That is bad writing, that is the crux of my criticism.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-08 at 06:33 PM.

  19. #4279
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And to make it even more damning, we see Galadriel way far ahead of all the other Elves, illustrating that she's physically superior them all and doesn't even need to wait for them to catch up.
    Purely the lens of bias inventing an argument so you can hate. All it shows is that she is still dedicated to her task and thus approaching it with the same zeal as "before" where as her team is starting to "give up". They know they are to return. They know they are outside the bounds of the mission. We learn later that she has continually defied those things yet they still followed her.

    We also know that her superiority is a given as she is a powerful and talented elf in the lore even ignore that Rings of Power is not necessarily bound by canon. So why is it really a problem that is put on display?
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  20. #4280
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Is this about the ice troll scene? The one where her support "distracted" it and gave her a "platform" to attack from? This just you, and others, blinding themselves for the sake of propping up a silly argument. You also ignore that they are slowing her down. Their dedication to their sacred task is wilting. This is like saying that everyone in Jacksons trilogy is useless because Frodo ultimately didn't need them for his quest as he does most of it without their help. Yet we know that isn't the case.

    You've reached a conclusion despite the scene and are forcing the lens of bias in order to maintain that conclusion.
    They didn't distract the troll. What? She wasn't even there for the distraction if they made one. You have a stronger argument that they attracted the troll because one wandered off.
    They got manhandled and destroyed utterly and did nothing of value. Then she arrived from the other place she and the other guy were.

    One guy using a springboard for flair is the only thing that can be considered "helping" but it also completely pointless and didn't exactly turn the tide of the battle.
    At best i give you One elf actually helped her. The rest did absolutely nothing. That's giving benefit of the doubt though. Thinking she wouldn't defeat the troll without the springboard is ridiculous to say the least.

    What scenes are you guys watching? Because it surely isn't depicted in the show.
    Can you give arguments and point to where she needed the help of the team? To me it seems like you are doing what you accuse me of.

    PJ's trilogy shows Frodo needs their help. So far this show have shown she doesn't need any.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-08 at 06:37 PM.
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