1. #4261
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    LIke it's been said so many times before, there is easily a way to show Galadriel as a good warrior without her taking literally everything away from the rest of her company.
    But they WANT her to stand out from the rest of her company. Showing them fail after being exhausted but showing that Galadriel doesn't let that sort of thing slow her down is important. She's being kept going by something inside her, despite conditions that break everyone else. That's a point they want to make, because that's what leads into the mutiny shortly after. They've had enough, even if she can still keep going.

  2. #4262
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    LIke it's been said so many times before, there is easily a way to show Galadriel as a good warrior without her taking literally everything away from the rest of her company.

    A concerted effort that displays her leadership and teamwork while having her deal the big blows would work just as effectively.
    Meanwhile, back in reality, it was her lieutenant who set her up for her first swing to begin with. Him giving her a boost into the fight isn't all that different than Merry poking the troll so that it opened its moth for Legolas to kill it. Because up till that point, it too had been wiping the floor with the Fellowship...

  3. #4263
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But they WANT her to stand out from the rest of her company. Showing them fail after being exhausted but showing that Galadriel doesn't let that sort of thing slow her down is important. She's being kept going by something inside her, despite conditions that break everyone else. That's a point they want to make, because that's what leads into the mutiny shortly after. They've had enough, even if she can still keep going.
    And like I've said many times, it has the consequence of making it look like she doesn't really need them at all other than for their torch-holding and extra bag space for items. It's pretty clear she's been last-hitting things and taking all the EXP and carrying the rest of the chumps.

    If they want to show that she can't survive without them, then they need to establish that in some way. Yet every moment in the first 20 minutes is all about showing how much more capable she is than the rest. Not just in one or two moments, but every moment. I'd agree with you if it were just this one fight that illustrates how well-off she is and how the rest are fatigued, but the fact that she's like this in every scene just makes them seem pointless.

    Like, the whole rock climbing scene was done without ropes, done without support, and Galadriel was way ahead of her team. It exemplifies that she's not a good leader, too overzealous to make rational decisions, and if her character really was this zealous and over-confident in her own abilities, the sensible narrative decision would have been to abandon her company rather than accompany them back. Because they've literally established her ignoring orders and being single-mindedly fixated on hunting Sauron already. The Snow Troll scene merely cements the idea that the rest of the Elves really are holding her back, especially when they decide to head back EVEN THOUGH THEY JUST FOUND EVIDENCE SAURON IS STILL OUT THERE.

    Based on the characterization we see in the first 20 minutes, the natural progression for her would be to abandon her party right then and there.

    For her to reconsider at all is not a character inflecting on something she did wrong, it's actually Galadriel acting out of character based on what we know and see of her in the first 20 minutes. If Galadriel were reflecting on her actions and having done something wrong, they need to show her internalizing it somehow, like her giving the command to head back. If you actually watch the scene, it actually ends with her making a stern face of disapproval, the music getting tense, and her grasping her dagger and moving out. That's not an indication that she actually reflected on her actions and felt she was in the wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Meanwhile, back in reality, it was her lieutenant who set her up for her first swing to begin with. Him giving her a boost into the fight isn't all that different than Merry poking the troll so that it opened its moth for Legolas to kill it. Because up till that point, it too had been wiping the floor with the Fellowship...
    And I'd ask you - was it even necessary for her to dispatch the Troll? If it was, then sure I may agree that would have been significant teamwork at play.

    But the fact is she did so many free hits on it, was able to dodge its attack and roll away while getting more hits in, deal blows without even looking at her target, and finishing it off with a dagger strike to the head... I think you really need to watch that scene again and let me know if you really think Galadriel would be unable to trek the north alone without the aid of springboards.

  4. #4264
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And like I've said many times, it has the consequence of making it look like she doesn't really need them at all other than for their torch-holding and extra bag space for items.
    Wrong.

    It shows she didn't need them FOR THIS FIGHT. And even that is debatable, since she could well have lost had she been the one ambushed instead of her men.

    By your logic, she steps on a bug and goes "oh what, I could do this by myself? Guess it's time to ditch the troops!". She took them with her for a reason. Just because THIS FIGHT didn't require backup doesn't mean she never will or never wants any.

    To jump immediately from "it happened in this one circumstance, therefore it'll always happen" is idiotic. Doubly so because she quite clearly DIDN'T just go "oh you want to leave? fine, I can do this myself anyway" when they threatened to leave.

  5. #4265
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    I just want to remember everyone that we are talking about so many shit, in the very first episode

    There is so many bad writing, dialogues and lore changes in one episode alone that im afraid to watch the second, but i will power trough this weekend

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It shows she didn't need them FOR THIS FIGHT.
    And its the only one we saw, it also shows she didn't need then for anything, at all

    Like its being aid many times, this entire scene could have worked in the hands of better writers who could actually put something that makes sense in a way she can still look strong and everyone not be a dumbass.

  6. #4266
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And its the only one we saw, it also shows she didn't need then for anything, at all
    If it's the only think we see, how about we restrict our statements to what we actually see. Instead of going off of what we see, and then apply that to everything we DON'T see.

    She didn't need them for X = therefore she doesn't need them for Y would already be flawed, but you go to therefore she doesn't need them for ANYTHING. Which is not only more ridiculous on a logical level (since even that simple X/Y isn't a justified conclusion) but is also directly contradicted by the fact that she chose to take people along, and when those people threatened to leave, she relented and went with them. If she REALLY didn't need them, or thought she didn't, doing that makes no sense.

    You have nothing to justify your claim other than "I can imagine a world in which they wrote it like that!" which is a laughable argument.

  7. #4267
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Wrong.

    It shows she didn't need them FOR THIS FIGHT.
    It's the only fight that counts, and it's the only fight we will ever see them in.

    There's really no excuse to a poorly established introduction to Galadriel and her company. I don't see her being a strong leader, and her being so brash and irrational it really makes me wonder how this particular incarnation of Galadriel was able to ascend the ranks of leadership and be given a role of commander. The show establishes that she has all the qualities of a highly capable and highly skilled soldier, not a strong military leader. And if she was always like this, did she ascended the ranks purely because of her skill, or was it because the king merely favoured her? It's hard to tell what the show actually intends to establish with her character being a high-ranking commander, outside of the ability for her to pull her rank when she's feeling overconfident.

    Does RoP Gil-galad have poor judgement in military commander choices? Seems like that's what the writers suggest. She'd be dead or locked up many times now, of her own accord, if she didn't have such strong plot armor.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-09 at 06:54 AM.

  8. #4268
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Episode 3

    So far straight off the bat the weakest episode, too much Galadriel for my liking. The story is 3/8 ways in and still nothing has happened, its just more set up. I hoped we'd get more conflict, and progress. Also I know the common complain is the Harfoots are forced in and not interesting, but by god I think they are great. But the shows biggest problem is that its so slow, I can imagine a lot of people who are interested in this show would probably be losing interest around this point. I do think the biggest thing for me this episode was seeing Numenor and its people being exactly like how I imagined, selfish and full of themselves. The Arondir stuff was the best part of this episode, though making me care about his friends dying is hard as we hardly knew them, they barely developed their main cast and now you want me to care for the side characters?. I did like Captain Elendil though, or at least the guy that plays him.

    Next week we are halfway through season 1. They need to move this forward. The show is following 4 main arcs and all of them are moving at a snails pace, although we may be getting some progess with the Arondir arc next week at least. Still like the show for the sights of things I know from the lore but that's only going to carry me so far.

    4/10

    Past reviews.
    Episode 1: 6/10
    Episode 2: 7/10

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53897065
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-09 at 06:58 AM.
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  9. #4269
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Oh man, i wonder how they will do the Numeors, cause i don't think there is enough stuff from the appendix, they will have to pull everything up from their ass, and everything up their ass so far was being shit

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    If it's the only think we see, how about we restrict our statements to what we actually see. Instead of going off of what we see, and then apply that to everything we DON'T see.
    ....

    But thats precisely the only thing we see, her troop being a bunch of useless, weaklings dumbasses

    1.They don't help in anything useful
    2.They don't do anything relevant
    3.they don't find anything important
    3. They don't know anything about anything

    1.They do know how be a burden of her
    2.They do know how to annoy her by saying she should stop

    THATS.IT

    You are just assuming they are in fact, a lot of useful, they just didn't show to be in this fight, except you have shit to back that up, because the show does not show that, in fact, it shows the exact opposite: 8 elves fucked over by a troll


    Assuming they were useful in other moments, its straight up ignoring your own statement that we should restrict to what "actually see"
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-09-09 at 06:46 AM.

  10. #4270
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    But thats precisely the only thing we see, her troop being a bunch of useless, weaklings dumbasses
    [...]
    You are just assuming they are in fact, a lot of useful, they just didn't show to be in this fight
    Wrong.

    I am saying "we see them useless (or at the very least: not very useful) in this one fight" and "Galadriel took them with her intentionally, and chose to remain with them when they decided they had enough and wanted to go home".

    That's it. Because those are the things we see.

    YOU are going from "we don't see them do anything useful in the scenes shown" to "therefore they WOULDN'T BE useful in ANY SCENE shown". Which is NOT something that we see.

  11. #4271
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Wrong.

    I am saying "we see them useless (or at the very least: not very useful) in this one fight" and "Galadriel took them with her intentionally, and chose to remain with them when they decided they had enough and wanted to go home".

    That's it. Because those are the things we see.

    YOU are going from "we don't see them do anything useful in the scenes shown" to "therefore they WOULDN'T BE useful in ANY SCENE shown". Which is NOT something that we see.
    Well we have to go by what we see no?
    Otherwise we can just imagine whatever we want for the times we do not see and saying what we imagined is what happend.

    And what we did see was her not really needing them except as a sword trampolin.

  12. #4272
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Wrong.
    "Wrong" he says

    I am saying "we see them useless (or at the very least: not very useful) in this one fight" and "Galadriel took them with her intentionally, and chose to remain with them when they decided they had enough and wanted to go home".

    That's it. Because those are the things we see.
    You just confirmed, that they are useless

    But you, somehow, you want to flower the argument to say "i-i-ts just this one i swear, there is nothing else to talk! don't imply things!!" which is extremely weird when the show itself needs you to imply a ton of shit and actually have read the book or the appendix to know something.

    I get it that you don't want to be too rough with the show, that's understandable, but bear in mind this is not a third-grade low budget fantasy show, it has a name, it had hype it had millions of dollars in it, and its crap.


    You know what this show remembers me? Eragon movie, same level of crap

    YOU are going from "we don't see them do anything useful in the scenes shown" to "therefore they WOULDN'T BE useful in ANY SCENE shown". Which is NOT something that we see.
    I mean, again, you are assuming that, no one is saying "they would not be useful in any scene shown" , that does fucking matter, because they will never be in a scene ever again, what matter is what we see and what happens, Once again, take your statement at heart, and restrict yourself in what we see.

    We see eight elves being a bunch of dumbasses, weaklings and useless. Thats it.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2022-09-09 at 07:07 AM.

  13. #4273
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Just cause "magic" doesn't mean you get to break all the rules of physics and science. And sure you can do whatever you want when you are writing fiction. But if it's something that breaks our understanding of universal laws, it helps to explain it. Making Middle Earth look like the United States seems like an odd choice.
    Magic is an unnatural, mysterious, and/or supernatural power that breaks the rules of physics and science by definition. Using necromancy, for example, to turn a human into an undead wraith is not explainable by science. Furthermore, there's no real explanation for where Sauron gets his power, but it's just taken for granted by the readers that he inherently has these powers and can also manage to transmit this power to a set of rings to mind-control men, elves, and dwarves and bend them to his will. What rational explanation do you have that follows the rules of physics, biology, genetics, and chemistry to explain any of that? You can't and it's not required to do so because we're talking about a high-fantasy story set in a fictionalized setting. Every aspect of Middle-Earth does not need a scientific explanation just because human culture, which is not limited to Germanic, Nordic, and Celtic cultures, influenced the books.

    Mundane details like the characters skin color are inconsequential to the story being told. If anything, seeing people harp so loudly about superficial details like this tells me that they watch these movies/shows and see everything that's on the surface but are incapable of internalizing anything else in them. I have yet to find something that captures the irrationality of racism and bigotry so perfectly as the childish reaction when anyone with dark skin is cast in a film with a turbo-nerd fandom surrounding it.

    I mean, I guess you folks would have been OK if they made Wakanda reflect the racial diversity of the United States, but it would have seemed like a really odd choice to me.
    This comparison makes no sense. The Blank Panther superhero was purposely created to add diversity to Marvel comics because at that time there were only white, American-centric characters in their stories. The skin color and background of Black Panther and the citizens of Wakanda are not minor details in the comic: it's the entire basis for the comic itself. So yeah, that's an extremely bad analogy.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  14. #4274
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Wrong.

    I am saying "we see them useless (or at the very least: not very useful) in this one fight" and "Galadriel took them with her intentionally, and chose to remain with them when they decided they had enough and wanted to go home".
    If you know anything about storytelling in movies, the first 15 minutes of a movie is the most important part of any movie. It sets up everything the audience needs to know to understand what the rest of the movie or series is about. It sets up the tone, the setting, the characters, and what the audience should expect out of the full ride.

    There are certain things the first 20 minute intro of RoP does right. It establishes Galadriel as a strong and powerful individual, with far greater skill and traits than the average Elf (her companions as a point of comparison). It establishes the world has a growing darkness, and that she's set on a path to find Sauron. Having it take place in the far north tells us that this story will span globally to the far reaches of the world. Having the environment be the most dangerous thing to the company establishes that the world itself can be dangerous, and there's more to worry about than just 'the bad guys'.

    A LOT of information can be crammed into an intro, and this is all the job of the writers to make sure all the necessary information is established and understood by the audience.

    That is why so much of the criticism is focused on the snow troll fight. While it just seems like one semi-important scene that people are making too much of a big deal out of, it's actually setting a narrative tone that will persist throughout the series. And in the case of RoP specifically, there are flaws in the introduction that will be carried forward into the narrative, like establishing Galadriel's character as a high-ranking military commander while portraying her to be a hot-tempered leader who disobeys commands, cares little about the wellbeing of her troops, and does not heed any of the advice of her peers. To me, her commander rank feels unauthentic in the intro, and every time that she 'pulls rank' in the future, it's going to remind me that it still feels unauthentic.

    And guess what, we're into Episode 3 and she's acting the exact same hot-tempered and irrational way, and it's still gets her into trouble, only for her to get out of it because of the helpful hand of dei ex machina. Her character is literally written to push people away, but somehow she still gets rewarded and respected by the same people she pushes away. It's like she's got the magical ability to fail upwards through the series.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-09 at 07:24 AM.

  15. #4275
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    You just confirmed, that they are useless
    ...in that one fight.

    You can't just cut off a sentence. That's rude.

  16. #4276
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    This weeks episode the first 30 minutes were a bit of a slog. But man do the Galadriel scenes not do it for me. I enjoyed the Arondir scenes this episode at least there seems to be a bit more movement on that arc.

    My review for those that missed it due to the pointless bitching about nothing going on in this thread.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53904070
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-09 at 09:26 AM.
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  17. #4277
    Honestly, I think this is it for me.

    This episode was boring AF, had more of that terrible acting and nonsensical writing, and REALLY makes me wonder where that billion dollars went. Because it sure didn't go to people making sure this was a quality TV show.

    I barely made it through this one, and I'm not going to watch the next. They had their chance, but this just isn't it for me. I have other things to do with my time.

  18. #4278
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    This weeks episode the first 30 minutes were a bit of a slog. But man do the Galadriel scenes not do it for me. I enjoyed the Arondir scenes this episode at least there seems to be a bit more movement on that arc.

    My review for those that missed it due to the pointless bitching about nothing going on in this thread.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53904070
    Read that, and it didn't give me much hope.
    I will watch it tonight after work.

    I think Season 1 is kind of doomed considering Galadriel will be the focal point most of the time I imagine.
    Personally I wanna see more about Celebrimbor because that's the thing I'm mostly interested in atm.
    And if what you say is true that not much is happening. It almost start to feel they use Season 1 as a setup... which is a weird decision.

    I re-state what I stated earlier. The show have great potential. If they focus on the right stuff, but atm it doesn't look like they are.
    If you cut out the Galadriel stuff it's a 6/10 for me.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-09 at 09:33 AM.
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  19. #4279
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    Magic is an unnatural, mysterious, and/or supernatural power that breaks the rules of physics and science by definition. Using necromancy, for example, to turn a human into an undead wraith is not explainable by science. Furthermore, there's no real explanation for where Sauron gets his power, but it's just taken for granted by the readers that he inherently has these powers and can also manage to transmit this power to a set of rings to mind-control men, elves, and dwarves and bend them to his will. What rational explanation do you have that follows the rules of physics, biology, genetics, and chemistry to explain any of that? You can't and it's not required to do so because we're talking about a high-fantasy story set in a fictionalized setting. Every aspect of Middle-Earth does not need a scientific explanation just because human culture, which is not limited to Germanic, Nordic, and Celtic cultures, influenced the books.

    Mundane details like the characters skin color are inconsequential to the story being told. If anything, seeing people harp so loudly about superficial details like this tells me that they watch these movies/shows and see everything that's on the surface but are incapable of internalizing anything else in them. I have yet to find something that captures the irrationality of racism and bigotry so perfectly as the childish reaction when anyone with dark skin is cast in a film with a turbo-nerd fandom surrounding it.



    This comparison makes no sense. The Blank Panther superhero was purposely created to add diversity to Marvel comics because at that time there were only white, American-centric characters in their stories. The skin color and background of Black Panther and the citizens of Wakanda are not minor details in the comic: it's the entire basis for the comic itself. So yeah, that's an extremely bad analogy.
    Funny you should mention that last bit, because Tolkien created Lord of the rings because he wanted there to he a history of the ancient English past.
    "The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings were conceived as the original stories behind an ancient but long lost English mythology"
    So he created LOTR much for the same reason Wakanda was created.
    Perhaps we should leave both alone, yes?

    And the first part I very much disagree with, first, lets both agree that if something is fiction, anything is possible when you are the author. If you write something set during WWII you could have Aliens come save the day or any number of other scenarios.
    Most writing, doesn't matter if you have magic or not, adheres to a set of rules, and if those rules are broken within that story, it takes people out of it.
    The start of a movie, franchise or series will set the tone for what we can expect.
    In a serious racing movie like Senna, we expect a different level of realism than we do in Fast and the Furious 7.
    Fantasy generally comes in 2 or 3 types, depending on how you look at it, you have child/teen fantasy, this focuses more on fantastical elements, it's usually not internally consistent, but can be a lot of fun to watch.
    Then you have mature fantasy, by this I don't mean mature people should like it more, but this type of fantasy generally sets out with a premise like "we are on a different planet, there are Elves Orcs and Trolls here" after accepting the mutual premise we expect it to be a place where things should happen as they would if the place was real.
    There are often discussions within this last type of fantasy if certain things would really happen or not.
    The original trilogy would be cheapened if superman showed up to help Frodo destroy the ring or if Gandalf could cast a spell powerful enough to destroy Mordor.
    Last edited by Sialina; 2022-09-09 at 10:29 AM.

  20. #4280
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It did unless you are using a definition for "fight" beyond the normal one. It doesn't demolish anything I've said though because those things do exist in fantasy works. It is silly to pretend that a single character is never important to a fight or battle. Have you never heard of a single champion to decide a battle? You can't say the elves don't the basics of dungeon combat. Not to mention how flawed your video game example is because even World-First caliber players can still make mistakes. Something you are claiming can't happen to a group of elves that are tired and pushed to their limit after being stalked by the Troll.

    Of course she is the Hero. It is her story. She is the main character. Did you think otherwise? Her troop members are ultimately unimportant to the story and likely will never appear again. At least as the "same" people even if the actors are reused as extras. It is silly that you think fighting together for hundreds of years means that they always perform at peak efficiency and skill. None of them died or were shown to be even moderately wounded.
    None of those fights you posted showed one person winning a fight as they were all larger battles with multiple enemies and heroes. I cannot continue this discussion with you since you obviously refuse to see reality. If you liked the scene in this series then fine. But to actually disagree with what was actually shown is completely different and not worth my time. And really all the things to be said have been said and it is pointless to just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Because the writers/director wanted to show that Galadriel was more than just talk? That she was actually a competent warrior?

    I have no idea why this is even a discussion.

    Main character does main character stuff. It's not even that remarkable. Especially not in the context of a Tolkien elf main character...who have been shown on film to be capable of this shit for two decades now.
    Most people understand that and aren't disagreeing with the concept. It is the execution they are taking issue with....... But whatever.
    No need to beat this horse to death.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-09 at 11:21 AM.

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