1. #4281
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If your goal is high-level discussion, how do you think calling out stupid criticism gets people to stop?
    It doesn't. Why should it be left to go unchecked? Remember you are the one hiding behind "good discussion" BS because that is the direction you've taken the discussion and are focusing on now. It is something that has no real way for you to lose by your own words like the past "high level" discussions you say I don't want. Isn't that strange that I've engaged in those discussions and it wasn't just to stir stuff up and troll?

    That trolling accusation didn't happen until you proved your own argument wrong? Lmao.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    None of those fights you posted showed one person winning a fight as they were all larger battles with multiple enemies and heroes.
    Again, False. Killing their target is winning their fight. You even acknowledge they won the fight because you mention how the fights shown are part of a larger battle. The only one refusing to see reality here is yourself who will call it a fight in a larger battle while denying it is a fight. I haven't disagreed with what was actually shown at all. You are trying to infer things about the scene that were not shown. Remember you made it about epic multi-person fight scenes as being a core to high fantasy and trying to bring Video games into it. Things that weren't shown in the Ice Troll scene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    The original trilogy would be cheapened if superman showed up to help Frodo destroy the ring or if Gandalf could cast a spell powerful enough to destroy Mordor.
    You mean like having Tom Bombadil? Glorfindel? Or "enchantments" from Gandalf or others like at the Ford of Bruinen that save the day? The Lord of the Rings is full of "super powered" characters that just show up to save the day. Isn't the entire premise that the "normal" guys have to do things because the super powered guys on each side wouldn't be able to? Do some get a good enough set up so it isn't that big of a deal? Sure. But it is strange to act like those things don't happen in LotR or other things you classify as "Mature Fantasy".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #4282
    Warchief Zoibert the Bear's Avatar
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    They actually made me dislike Galadriel, what the fuck.

    Why did they turn such a likeable character into an unsufferable cunt? Rest is OK
    Last edited by Zoibert the Bear; 2022-09-09 at 12:05 PM.

  3. #4283
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't. Why should it be left to go unchecked? Remember you are the one hiding behind "good discussion" BS because that is the direction you've taken the discussion and are focusing on now. It is something that has no real way for you to lose by your own words like the past "high level" discussions you say I don't want. Isn't that strange that I've engaged in those discussions and it wasn't just to stir stuff up and troll?

    That trolling accusation didn't happen until you proved your own argument wrong? Lmao.

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    Again, False. Killing their target is winning their fight. You even acknowledge they won the fight because you mention how the fights shown are part of a larger battle. The only one refusing to see reality here is yourself who will call it a fight in a larger battle while denying it is a fight. I haven't disagreed with what was actually shown at all. You are trying to infer things about the scene that were not shown. Remember you made it about epic multi-person fight scenes as being a core to high fantasy and trying to bring Video games into it. Things that weren't shown in the Ice Troll scene.

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    You mean like having Tom Bombadil? Glorfindel? Or "enchantments" from Gandalf or others like at the Ford of Bruinen that save the day? The Lord of the Rings is full of "super powered" characters that just show up to save the day. Isn't the entire premise that the "normal" guys have to do things because the super powered guys on each side wouldn't be able to? Do some get a good enough set up so it isn't that big of a deal? Sure. But it is strange to act like those things don't happen in LotR or other things you classify as "Mature Fantasy".
    Some of the incidents are built up enough to not interfere, others less so, I mentioned the eagles before, but I think one needs to be pretty arrogant to think to improve on Tolkiens works by remodeling the world.
    There are problems in most fictional settings, but we don't solve that by adding more.
    Deus ex machina is generally frowned upon as a solution to a problem in fiction nowadays, but it used to be the goto in old greek plays. If anything we are moving away from having Deus ex be a valid approach to a story problem.

  4. #4284
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Deus ex machina
    The hero running in from the other room to kill the thing that's attacking her party isn't a "deus ex machina"... It's neither unlikely, given the feats we have seen elf warriors accomplish over 6 movies in this setting, nor is it the resolution of some dilemma that otherwise seems impossible. Don't use phrases like this when you clearly have no idea what they mean.

    This argument is all the more ridiculous given the fight scene in the most recent episode. Demonstrating pretty clearly that even an elf who is exhausted/dehydrated, and has to scrounge for weapons, can pretty easily defeat an otherwise terrifying opponent...
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-09 at 12:49 PM.

  5. #4285
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Some of the incidents are built up enough to not interfere, others less so, I mentioned the eagles before, but I think one needs to be pretty arrogant to think to improve on Tolkiens works by remodeling the world.
    They are doing a TV show. The work has to be changed because of the medium and there are a lot of filler in the books that wouldn't work to cover 1:1. So it is silly to call changes only arrogance when they have to make the story work for the format. Not to mention they are telling a story based on hints and suggestions from Tolkien so it isn't "improving" but adding.

    Dues Ex Machina isn't frowned on or avoided. It is only instances that are properly integrated with in the story that are a problem. The low effort things. Like I said Tolkien uses these same things you keep saying are bad for mature fantasy while at the same time crafting them in a way where it isn't a big deal that they appear. Like the river flooding to stop the Nazgul. It is a example of DEM (or at least "plot armor") but fits well enough in the setting to not be a bad thing.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-09 at 01:16 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  6. #4286
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Again, False. Killing their target is winning their fight. You even acknowledge they won the fight because you mention how the fights shown are part of a larger battle. The only one refusing to see reality here is yourself who will call it a fight in a larger battle while denying it is a fight. I haven't disagreed with what was actually shown at all. You are trying to infer things about the scene that were not shown. Remember you made it about epic multi-person fight scenes as being a core to high fantasy and trying to bring Video games into it. Things that weren't shown in the Ice Troll scene/
    OK. Fine. Believe what you want. It is pointless to continue because you and I see things totally different, as in literally seeing different things in the same video. Legolas is not shown winning the war of Pelennor Fields or Helms Deep by himself. I am not sure how you believe that is even remotely the same as 10 elves vs 1 ice troll. Tolkien did not write Helms Deep as a victory due to Legolas by himself killing everything and it is odd how you are stuck on twisting reality to suggest that it does. Those are epic battles that he wrote where almost everyone is heroic in their own way, where as this battle shows only 1 person being heroic and everyone else being mostly useless.

    So lets just leave this where it is.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-09 at 01:39 PM.

  7. #4287
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    The hero running in from the other room to kill the thing that's attacking her party isn't a "deus ex machina"... It's neither unlikely, given the feats we have seen elf warriors accomplish over 6 movies in this setting, nor is it the resolution of some dilemma that otherwise seems impossible. Don't use phrases like this when you clearly have no idea what they mean.

    This argument is all the more ridiculous given the fight scene in the most recent episode. Demonstrating pretty clearly that even an elf who is exhausted/dehydrated, and has to scrounge for weapons, can pretty easily defeat an otherwise terrifying opponent...
    No you are right, thing is, I wasn't talking about that scene so no idea why you mention it. The problem with that scene is simply that it's shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They are doing a TV show. The work has to be changed because of the medium and there are a lot of filler in the books that wouldn't work to cover 1:1. So it is silly to call changes only arrogance when they have to make the story work for the format. Not to mention they are telling a story based on hints and suggestions from Tolkien so it isn't "improving" but adding.

    Dues Ex Machina isn't frowned on or avoided. It is only instances that are properly integrated with in the story that are a problem. The low effort things. Like I said Tolkien uses these same things you keep saying are bad for mature fantasy while at the same time crafting them in a way where it isn't a big deal that they appear. Like the river flooding to stop the Nazgul. It is a example of DEM (or at least "plot armor") but fits well enough in the setting to not be a bad thing.
    Tolkien in not an island, he had inspirations of his own, writing has evolved since his time, and will keep evolving into the future. That doesn't mean you get to put up a "Shakespeare as improved by rhorle" play. If it doesn't please you, make something of your own. If you put on a play by Shakespeare and fill it with Marvel jokes and still announce it as "Shakespeare but improved" you will just have a very confused play that neither Shakespeare fans nor Marvel fans will enjoy despite both being massive successes.

  8. #4288
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Tolkien in not an island, he had inspirations of his own, writing has evolved since his time, and will keep evolving into the future. That doesn't mean you get to put up a "Shakespeare as improved by rhorle" play.
    Shakespeare is a pretty poor example because it has many adaptations and has inspired many works. There is even a Romeo and Juliet film with guns. While it was some mixed reception it is still regarded as an influential film to bring Shakespeare to a younger audience in the late 1990's. West Side story is another critically acclaimed Shakespeare adaptation. So I'm not sure if you fully understand the concepts you keep talking about as you always counter them.

    Of course Tolkien is not an island and writing has evolved. That doesn't stop him from using the things you keep mention as bad for mature fantasy. You keep making exceptions for tolkien when the things you say are bad for mature fantasy exist in Tolkein. Strange, right? It just shows that the things you keep referencing are BS and a veil to cover for your dislike. It doesn't matter when those things exist in the things you like because they get exceptions or justifications for existing.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #4289
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Shakespeare is a pretty poor example because it has many adaptations and has inspired many works. There is even a Romeo and Juliet film with guns. While it was some mixed reception it is still regarded as an influential film to bring Shakespeare to a younger audience in the late 1990's. West Side story is another critically acclaimed Shakespeare adaptation. So I'm not sure if you fully understand the concepts you keep talking about as you always counter them.

    Of course Tolkien is not an island and writing has evolved. That doesn't stop him from using the things you keep mention as bad for mature fantasy. You keep making exceptions for tolkien when the things you say are bad for mature fantasy exist in Tolkein. Strange, right? It just shows that the things you keep referencing are BS and a veil to cover for your dislike. It doesn't matter when those things exist in the things you like because they get exceptions or justifications for existing.
    No, you are making my point, Tolkien has also inspired many adaptations, he is basically the father of modern fantasy. If you want to do lord of the rings, but with guns and you call that rhroles magical gunshow, go for it dude! if it's awesome even better, but don't call it "Lord of the rings, as written by Tolkien, but improved"
    This thread would be about 5 pages of people saying this is pretty average to meh if they decided to call this something else and make it their own thing. What is enraging people is claiming it's the expansion of the story Tolkien would have written.

  10. #4290
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    No, you are making my point, Tolkien has also inspired many adaptations, he is basically the father of modern fantasy. If you want to do lord of the rings, but with guns and you call that rhroles magical gunshow, go for it dude! if it's awesome even better, but don't call it "Lord of the rings, as written by Tolkien, but improved"
    This show isn't called Lord of the Rings as written by Tolkien. Again you prove your own point doesn't apply. It is strange how you keep making points while also contradicting them.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  11. #4291
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    This show isn't called Lord of the Rings as written by Tolkien. Again you prove your own point doesn't apply. It is strange how you keep making points while also contradicting them.
    The showrunners have proclaimed this is a "Tolkien story he never wrote" and the bragged so much about how they wanted to keep everything as "Tolkenian as possible".
    How faithful they wanted to be, yadda yadda.
    It's not called that, but it certainly marketed as such.

    Just giving you important info you seem to ignore or have missed.
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  12. #4292
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Just giving you important info you seem to ignore or have missed.
    I am not ignoring statements made to hype up the show. It still isn't being claimed to be written by Tolkien. Only inspired by which is true. The x-ray notes during the episodes call out various parts of Tolkien wrote that the show has used for inspiration. The "story he never wrote" is clearly not "the story he wrote". Amazon has been clear from the start that they are not looking to be super faithful as they are doing a new story rather then a story already told.

    The "Lord of the Rings as written by Tolkien" is apt for the Jackson films as he was striving to tell a faithful adaptation of actual Tolkien.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  13. #4293
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    What black elves are you talking about in WOW? Night Elves in Wow descend from Trolls who generally were pinkish purple and thus most Night elves are purple to pink with other elves being pale as in "high elves" with blonde hair.
    Trolls were never pinkish. They are generally green and blue - then they added a purple skin tone to make night elves come from them in a lore shift we would later see many of.

    But they authored their lore, so they have every right to change it at any point. We know what destroying your consistency and changing your lore does though, even when you own it and have full rights to do so - it destroys its integrity and people are far less inclined to follow or buy your shit because it’s meaningless even in your own fanrasy world a few episodes or years down the line.

    It’s different with Tolkein, this isn’t some obscure poorly written half realised world, every detail is meticulously placed - there are many gaps, but you should at least not change the ones there and certainly not so drastically as to basically be something else.

    At least not if you want to capture and build on the 10s if not 100s of millions or more who have loved Tolkein’s work.

    They loved Tolkein’s work, what arrogance to think you can change it and do better. They fell in love with Tolkein’s work, they want to see that or a faithful and truthful version not your substitute you think is superior because you are ticking the political and socio religious boxes of your day you think are great or you think everyone loves (which usually is just everyone in your bubble).

    This is not to say the show doesn’t have merit. But if it is not Tolkein or at least faithful to it, why call it that?

    Hollywood lot are truly in their own bubble totally out of touch with the very masses they are trying to make more billions out of - this approach may work for some franchises that don’t care about endless re-imaginings of their shallow bit part fiction.

    You really shouldn’t be taking one of the most detailed fictional works in history, re writing your own version and expecting everyone who loved the original to love yours.

    It may work for the Eternals or Wonder Woman, but Tolkein designed and imagined an entire world, not a super hero version of 21st century Earth.

    People are bound to notice.
    Last edited by Mace; 2022-09-09 at 03:14 PM.

  14. #4294
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    This weeks episode the first 30 minutes were a bit of a slog. But man do the Galadriel scenes not do it for me. I enjoyed the Arondir scenes this episode at least there seems to be a bit more movement on that arc.

    My review for those that missed it due to the pointless bitching about nothing going on in this thread.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53904070
    My thoughts exactly. Apart from Num just looking cool, all the scenes were boring but Arondirs scenes balanced it all out.

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  15. #4295
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    At least not if you want to capture and build on the 10s if not 100s of millions or more who have loved Tolkein’s work.
    Skin tone is hardly a big deal when they are changing the timeline. It is silly how much focus it gets when "big deal" changes actually exist and were done actually tell a different story rather then just for cosmetic reasons. Since it is just cosmetic it seems silly to even try to claim 10 to 100 million only love Tolkien's work because of skin tone and that not adhereing to such won't build on or capture their interest.
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  16. #4296
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    But if it is not Tolkein or at least faithful to it, why call it that?
    Putting aside cynical reasons like branding and name recognition value, we are ONLY ever talking about degrees of faithfulness in ANY adaptation.

    You put it out there that "it isn't Tolkien" like that was some obvious, self-evident truth. But it's not. Nothing "is Tolkien" except things actually written by Tolkien. What you're talking about is a SUBJECTIVE standard that pretends to have gatekeeping powers, deciding what is and is not Tolkien based on some kind of hypothetical fandom and its acceptance or rejection of things.

    But that's not how it works. There is no cohesion here, no consensus, no objective measuring of "Tolkien-ness". Self-proclaimed fans do not get to decide what does and does not qualify as "being Tolkien" for other people; they couldn't even all agree on it if you asked them. All you're doing is going from something very general like "the Jackson LotR films were generally well regarded by audiences" to "therefore that adaption 'is Tolkien'" without real justification, based solely on a notion of acceptance that you subscribe to purely for the reason that it coincides with your own preference.

    Never mind the fact that plenty of "Tolkien fans" consider some of Jacksons alterations to the plot unacceptably "not Tolkien", it's not what YOU think and you can retreat into the power of a perceived majority, therefore YOUR position on it is legitimized and can be posted as truth.

    And in much the same way, you feel you are now entitled to be the arbiter of "Tolkien-ness" for this show - and in much the same way, you actually don't have any more justification for that than you did for the films.

    Don't misunderstand: I've been pretty clear about my own dislike for this show. I barely made it through Ep3 and it's unlikely I'll watch Ep4. The show doesn't work for me for all sorts of reasons. But it supposedly "not being Tolkien" isn't one of them, because that's not a reason - it's a smokescreen for arrogantly asserting that you have the power to arbitrate over a literary legacy, when you don't and nobody does. (Except for the Tolkien estate, and that's in legal terms not in terms of creative judgement.)

  17. #4297
    Think the latest episode was a bit slow at times. I also feel like Galadriels character is different from what I'd expect of someone who has lived as long as she has. I do think there are some great characters though and I'm still interested.

  18. #4298
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    The Arondir stuff was the best part of this episode, though making me care about his friends dying is hard as we hardly knew them, they barely developed their main cast and now you want me to care for the side characters?.
    I feel like this encapsulates the issue with galadriel too. We get one little scene with her bro making some weird explanation of rocks and boats, and then he dies in an exposition dump. We don't feel her loss, or see her transition from a nicer galadriel to the current more irritating one.

    It feels like they skipped past a lot of stuff that should have been on screen only to turn into an extremely slow build up to...something.

  19. #4299
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I feel like this encapsulates the issue with galadriel too. We get one little scene with her bro making some weird explanation of rocks and boats, and then he dies in an exposition dump. We don't feel her loss, or see her transition from a nicer galadriel to the current more irritating one.

    It feels like they skipped past a lot of stuff that should have been on screen only to turn into an extremely slow build up to...something.
    If I have to make my own assessment of the shows biggest problem its that its too much and too little at the same time. To much has happened yet at the same time it feels nothing has happened either, I said from the get go, despite enjoying RoP for the most part the pacing is a bit of a mess. No one is getting good development time, and I havent gotten a connection to a lot of the characters, Elrond and the dwarfs are the most I feel connected too and they were not in episode 3, Arondin also has started to gell with me, but we'll see how that goes. The lack of more Elrond and Dwarfs maybe hurt my enjoyment of episode 3 too. Way too much Galadriel for my taste.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-09 at 03:51 PM.
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  20. #4300
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't. Why should it be left to go unchecked?
    Why business is it of yours and why does it matter to you?

    Gonna point it out again but all you do is troll people and call them haters and spread hate. You're not engaging discussion for the sake of discussion.

    I mean your entire argument against criticism involved a bunch of bad faith arguments like saying the Elves hit the troll in the fight and Galadriel merely stole the kill, right?

    And that was complete bullshit. And we made the point that they were actually still useless in the fight.

    And you STILL continued to argue for the sake of arguing, jumping to other points to argue how they weren't useless because they didn't die, or how they drew their swords and got ready to fight or some inane bullshit backpedalling to cover the fact you thought they actually hit the troll at all before she got there.

    You're not leaving anything 'unchecked', you made a false assumption, tried to correct people based in that false assumption, and when proven wrong instead of admitting it was a mistake you doubled down and tried to cover it with finger pointing and whataboutisms. Nothing to do with any of the criticism being made, just you arguing for the sake of arguing and calling people haters because you made a stupid assumption.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    If I have to make my own assessment of the shows biggest problem its that its too much and too little at the same time. To much has happened yet at the same time it feels nothing has happened either, I said from the get go, despite enjoying RoP for the most part the pacing is a bit of a mess. The lack of more Elrond and Dwarfs maybe hurt my enjoyment of episode 3 too. Way too much Galadriel for my taste.
    Elrond's arc has become the most interesting part pf the show to me, and it really does kinda suck that he was left out. I will say I didn't expect them to be in Numenor so quick, I half expected they would spend an episode building up relations on the ship.

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