1. #4361
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    It's not Tolkein in the spirit of his writing
    Says who? You?

    That's my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    These aren't Tolkein's ethos, values, or foundation for the lord of the rings
    Prove it. And I mean PROVE, not just "this is why I personally think so". Because I wager that's all you can do - say that YOU don't consider this Tolkien. Which you're free to do. Just as others are free to consider it Tolkien.

    The problem isn't that some people like the show and some don't. The problem is there's people pretending they're the gatekeepers of an authenticity standard that does not - and indeed cannot - exist.

    There's nothing wrong with just saying "I don't like this". That's what I did. Trying to make it as though somehow your personal preference is more than just preference but is the expression of a grander standard of "Tolkien-ness" that you subscribe to but others violate is presumption of the highest order.

  2. #4362
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Yeh, it's very different - in so many ways, it doesn't feel Tolkein. Peter Jackson's movies were not a 100% faithful adaptation, but they go the essence and feel of the lord of the Rings far closer. It was believably middle earth not just in appearnace but in characterisation, etc - this one isn't ..
    Does that actually surprise you? Of course the feel and essence would be far closer when all Jackson had to do was copy existing work to film. Amazon has no existing story to port over but has to create a new one so it has no "familiarity" to prop it up.
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  3. #4363
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    And Wakanda isn't Africa.
    Um Wakanda is very much so suppose to be an uncolonized part of Africa.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #4364
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    The trouble is they weren't given carte blanche to use Firsf Age stuff, I suspect what we did see was allowed by the Tolkien Estate in a severely restricted way
    I believe it has been stated Amazon can only use the "Concerning Hobbits" and Appendixes because Embracer Group (they bought Middle-Earth Enterprises formerly owned by the Saul Zaentz company) owns the exclusive rights to a lot of names and other stuff. Embracer is involved in the production somehow so maybe future seasons will see more things used. Rights are crazy things and many authors/estates made silly deals.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #4365
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Because while it isn't faithful to the timeline Tolkien sketched for the Second Age it is very much set in Arda with the themes and nature of the world intact.
    It's not Tolkien it's using the name to sell half baked bad fanfiction see Rafe of Time. It's crap writing that couldn't carry an original property so they attached it to a famous one.

  6. #4366
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    This comparison makes no sense. The Blank Panther superhero was purposely created to add diversity to Marvel comics because at that time there were only white, American-centric characters in their stories. The skin color and background of Black Panther and the citizens of Wakanda are not minor details in the comic: it's the entire basis for the comic itself. So yeah, that's an extremely bad analogy.
    So what I'm hearing you say is that Black Panther was created to bring diversity into an otherwise, non-diverse universe - and if so, I can accept that.

    But if Marvel is able to correct the errors of their forefathers and make all of their other titles reflect the racial diversity of the U.S. (which I think they have), then it is now OK to make Wakanda diverse as well? Once they have reached equal racial representation in their other titles, should they make Wakanda diverse as well?

    If I could add my 2 cents, it would be to add diversity where it makes sense, but don't shoe horn it where it doesn't. The recent Spider-Man movies and cartoons are a perfect example of this. Lots of racial diversity, none of it shoe-horned.
    Last edited by Ragedaug; 2022-09-09 at 11:37 PM.

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  7. #4367
    Every single major film or series will have a diverse cast in leading roles. Regardless of the source material.

    If that is an issue, go watch an anime about dating a schoolgirl.

  8. #4368
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Every single major film or series will have a diverse cast in leading roles. Regardless of the source material.

    If that is an issue, go watch an anime about dating a schoolgirl.
    Glad you could come in and contribute something useful and new to the thread!
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  9. #4369
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Glad you could come in and contribute something useful and new to the thread!
    I mean, she's not wrong.

    Except for the thing about watching anime about dating school girls, of course.

    ...cause you can totally do that even if diversity ISN'T an issue for you.

  10. #4370
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So any theories on Sauron's appearance?

    Is he the Stranger? Adar? Halbrand?

    I think Sauron is still gonna be a secret till later, and these are all just different characters. Lots of red herrings. I think Halbrand might end up being one of the 9 though, possibly even the Witch King of Angmar.
    My best guess is that they're all fake-outs (when it comes to Sauron, though I agree that Halbrand becoming a Nazgul* by the end of the show seems plausible). From the little we've seen of him so far, Celebrimbor seems to have Big Plans... and while it's possible that a run-in with Annatar later changes those plans, it seems more likely that he's already working with his talented, well-meaning friend. And if said Good Buddy Annatar is chatting regularly with Celebrimbor, then he is not simulanesouly: lost at sea to wash-up in Numenor, busy wrangling orcs looking for a Black Sword, or falling from the sky and fooling with hobbits.**


    *I've always liked the idea that Sauron corrupted someone fairly close to the throne of Numenor, like an uncle to a king, to eventually become one of the ringwraiths (likely the Lord of the Nazgul) and that individual's influence is responsible for the early failings of Numenor (turning from the elves, dominating Lesser Men, clinging to life). Alas, they seem to have played games with the timeline that rule out anything of the sort.

    **Meteor Man pretty much has to be ruled out as Annatar/Sauron, because Sauron explicitly knows nothing of hobbits. I'll be content if he turn out to be one of the Five Wizards (I don't think the show can explicitly make him one of the Blue Wizards, although that's the role he best fits), as Tolkien mused that two of them may have come early to help against Sauron in the Second Age, especially in the East. I shall be a little disappointed if he turns out to be Gandalf, as Gandalf's pretty well detailed arrival is via ship at the Gray Havens. That said, if the series ends with Cirdan handing Narya to Meteor Man/Gandalf, cautioning him to "keep it secret, keep it safe", I will quietly smile (even if it is a departure, it's not an awful one). In support of Meteor Man being Gandalf, the overhead shot of his arrival reminds me a lot of Gandalf lying there in the snow post-Balrog slaying.
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  11. #4371
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    And Wakanda isn't Africa.
    The setting is in modern Africa, that's the difference. Middle-Earth is loosely based on our world and is set in an ancient time period with fictional races. Wakanda is intentionally familiar to the reader. It's not immediately obvious that Middle-Earth is influenced by our world. You can see some of the inspiration from time to time, but again, it's not as clear-cut as Marvel comics can be.


    I'm not white, and not American, American movies are showed outside of America where compositions of people are completely different.
    Idris Elba as James Bond 007? No thanks, Idris Elba as Darrington Steel 008? Very much yes please, Idris Elba is an amazing actor.
    Then I'll cut you slack for being unaware of how deep the bigoted mind-rot is in America. It's deeply ingrained, subtle, and sinister and I realize that people that have never experienced it in person are unable to fully understand it. For example, around the time Black Panther was created during the civil rights era, it was common for music groups to not put black artists on the covers of their albums because white people wouldn't buy them. The 60s really wasn't that long ago but it's just assumed that we're all over it. We're not, and probably never will be.

    So I don't really care what other countries do when it comes to movie casting. But it shouldn't catch you by surprise when American showrunners and studios cast movies and tv shows in a way that values inclusion. Cynics will say they're doing it to pander. That's true insofar as producers realize that non-white Americans also read comics, books, and watch movies and appreciate when they can relate to the characters in the story. If you lived in America and saw Black Panther in the theater when it was released, you'd know what I mean.


    I guess this is that double standard of yours speaking.
    Not really when you consider the reason Kirby/Lee made Black Panther, and how big of an insult it would be to cast white actors as native Wakandans because they can't handle not being the center of attention for a single film. It's just common sense from my perspective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    So what I'm hearing you say is that Black Panther was created to bring diversity into an otherwise, non-diverse universe - and if so, I can accept that.

    But if Marvel is able to correct the errors of their forefathers and make all of their other titles reflect the racial diversity of the U.S. (which I think they have), then it is now OK to make Wakanda diverse as well? Once they have reached equal racial representation in their other titles, should they make Wakanda diverse as well?

    If I could add my 2 cents, it would be to add diversity where it makes sense, but don't shoe horn it where it doesn't. The recent Spider-Man movies and cartoons are a perfect example of this. Lots of racial diversity, none of it shoe-horned.
    I don't see us at a point of equilibrium when it comes to casting. It's getting better but even casting a black actress as an imperial hunter in a Star Wars TV show, or casting a black actor as an Elf in Rings of Power causes backlash. I don't really view these choices as shoehorning things where they don't belong. Where are the elves and dwarves that are losing acting opportunities? We're not talking about retconning history here, we're talking about high-fantasy and space fiction. It's simply not that big of a deal.

    Did it bother you that an Italian-American portrayed a Cuban coke dealer in Scarface? Does it matter that a Mexican Cartel boss is portrayed by a Jewish American actor in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul? Those actors were perfect for those roles so there's no easy answer here, but it did come at a cost for Cuban and Mexican actors trying to find work. Yet, when the shoe is on the other foot there's massive outrage. Just something to think about.
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  12. #4372
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    The setting is in modern Africa, that's the difference. Middle-Earth is loosely based on our world and is set in an ancient time period with fictional races. Wakanda is intentionally familiar to the reader. It's not immediately obvious that Middle-Earth is influenced by our world. You can see some of the inspiration from time to time, but again, it's not as clear-cut as Marvel comics can be.




    Then I'll cut you slack for being unaware of how deep the bigoted mind-rot is in America. It's deeply ingrained, subtle, and sinister and I realize that people that have never experienced it in person are unable to fully understand it. For example, around the time Black Panther was created during the civil rights era, it was common for music groups to not put black artists on the covers of their albums because white people wouldn't buy them. The 60s really wasn't that long ago but it's just assumed that we're all over it. We're not, and probably never will be.

    So I don't really care what other countries do when it comes to movie casting. But it shouldn't catch you by surprise when American showrunners and studios cast movies and tv shows in a way that values inclusion. Cynics will say they're doing it to pander. That's true insofar as producers realize that non-white Americans also read comics, books, and watch movies and appreciate when they can relate to the characters in the story. If you lived in America and saw Black Panther in the theater when it was released, you'd know what I mean.




    Not really when you consider the reason Kirby/Lee made Black Panther, and how big of an insult it would be to cast white actors as native Wakandans because they can't handle not being the center of attention for a single film. It's just common sense from my perspective.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't see us at a point of equilibrium when it comes to casting. It's getting better but even casting a black actress as an imperial hunter in a Star Wars TV show, or casting a black actor as an Elf in Rings of Power causes backlash. I don't really view these choices as shoehorning things where they don't belong. Where are the elves and dwarves that are losing acting opportunities? We're not talking about retconning history here, we're talking about high-fantasy and space fiction. It's simply not that big of a deal.

    Did it bother you that an Italian-American portrayed a Cuban coke dealer in Scarface? Does it matter that a Mexican Cartel boss is portrayed by a Jewish American actor in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul? Those actors were perfect for those roles so there's no easy answer here, but it did come at a cost for Cuban and Mexican actors trying to find work. Yet, when the shoe is on the other foot there's massive outrage. Just something to think about.
    From an outside perspective you appear to be going backwards though, you say black panther was celebrated, but the first successful comicbook hero was Blade. You have huge stars like will smith and Morgan freeman that have been around forever, but looking back to when I was young we got Wesley snipes and Eddie Murphy as cool action stars. Did you guys suddenly forget about them or what happened?

    I generally don't think representing real life in a fictional world is a good idea, it's made to take you out of the real world, escapeism. I wouldn't want a Trump/Biden joke in my fantasy movies.
    But there are many problems, look at the fresh Buzzcuts, or Celebrimborn being old enough that he needs to thinking about the retirement home, those things also take me out of the fantasy presented.

  13. #4373
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Best you just treat this as a standalone spinoff on the level of 'Shadows of Mordor/War'.
    Or the Jackson trilogies, which were standalone spinoffs aswell.

  14. #4374
    Scarab Lord MCMLXXXII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    From an outside perspective you appear to be going backwards though, you say black panther was celebrated, but the first successful comicbook hero was Blade.
    Wrong. Black Panther was created in '66. Blade made his debut in '73

  15. #4375
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Wrong. Black Panther was created in '66. Blade made his debut in '73
    What does that have to do with either of the movies?

  16. #4376
    So, how bad is it in reality?

    After watching House of the Dragon I was pleasantly surprised how good it captured the early GoT mood while giving us new stuff. RoP looks like generic fantasy trash and everything I saw and read about it seemed awful. "Be happy that they gave you a TV show" was one of the reasons I've read why this show is good - that's a terrible answer for the question raised.
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  17. #4377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    What does that have to do with either of the movies?
    You never mentioned thier movies. You said the first successful (black) comicbook hero was Blade.

  18. #4378
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    I really dont care about the diverse casting. What gets me is that they had the nerve to fucking put hobbits in when they have no business being there. I dont fucking care what you call them, they should not be there. Otherwise, this show is generic as hell.

  19. #4379
    Pit Lord rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Wrong. Black Panther was created in '66. Blade made his debut in '73
    'being right doesn't mean you weren't wrong' - the films released decades apart and if it wasn't for the overwhelming success of 'Blade' there would be no MCU today, just saying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    I really dont care about the diverse casting. What gets me is that they had the nerve to fucking put hobbits in when they have no business being there. I dont fucking care what you call them, they should not be there. Otherwise, this show is generic as hell.
    how else would they sell the nostalgia narrative without the full spread of racial diversity from middle earth present?

  20. #4380
    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    I really dont care about the diverse casting. What gets me is that they had the nerve to fucking put hobbits in when they have no business being there. I dont fucking care what you call them, they should not be there. Otherwise, this show is generic as hell.
    Not only did they put them in for no reason in lore... They actually put them in for NO REASON in story.
    Their story do absolutely nothing.
    Not-Gandalf is the interesting one, the Harfoots aren't necessary for Not-Gandalf though. They are just another crutch to slow the show down... but the show need to pick up the pace.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-10 at 08:48 AM.
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