1. #4381
    Oh good. We're back to whining about how terrible it is that "black people are in pop culture productions" again? Fantastic...

    I guess the 20 pages of whining about an elf killing a troll was finally enough.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-10 at 08:57 AM.

  2. #4382
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    'being right doesn't mean you weren't wrong' - the films released decades apart and if it wasn't for the overwhelming success of 'Blade' there would be no MCU today, just saying.
    Nope, that was Iron Man. Blade didn't have anything to do with the MCU

  3. #4383
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Because while it isn't faithful to the timeline Tolkien sketched for the Second Age it is very much set in Arda with the themes and nature of the world intact.
    The setting I would agree with, but themes and nature seem way off.

    While I do watch it, it doesn’t feel anywhere near the distinctiveness of Tolkeinni read in the books or that Jackson successfully captured in his movies.

    Using the same accents doesn’t make it work imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Says who? You?

    That's my point.
    I mean we are giving our opinions here. Hence words like feel and spirit we associate or identify with the author’s work and how they come across to us.

    Prove it. And I mean PROVE, not just "this is why I personally think so". Because I wager that's all you can do - say that YOU don't consider this Tolkien. Which you're free to do. Just as others are free to consider it Tolkien.

    The problem isn't that some people like the show and some don't. The problem is there's people pretending they're the gatekeepers of an authenticity standard that does not - and indeed cannot - exist.

    There's nothing wrong with just saying "I don't like this". That's what I did. Trying to make it as though somehow your personal preference is more than just preference but is the expression of a grander standard of "Tolkien-ness" that you subscribe to but others violate is presumption of the highest order.
    Not going to try and objectively prove how much like Tolkein this is.

    But when I read the books, this show doesn’t come across like the material I read which Jackson’s films very much did even though they weren’t 100% accurate to the letter.

    I think many others have already done that and would do a better job than I respectfully Biomega.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Does that actually surprise you? Of course the feel and essence would be far closer when all Jackson had to do was copy existing work to film. Amazon has no existing story to port over but has to create a new one so it has no "familiarity" to prop it up.
    True, which is why I feel they needed to make zero changes to anything established to have a chance of pulling off the new stuff they introduced successfully.


    Should have done a lot more work on their story and characters and not broken timelines either.

    As it stands I cannot accept this as Tolkein’s middle earth, it has deviated too far from the established work.

    I was able
    To accept the Hobbit that introduced new things Tolkein never wrote , even though the movies weren’t as good as the first trilogy and some things were gimmicky.

    This one feels like they broke canon to throw in a much of the elements of the movies and books but then changed many of them beyond recognition making it end up feeling like something else similar to but not Tolkein’s world the way it came across in his books. Something Jackson succeeded in despite his changes.

  4. #4384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Nope, that was Iron Man. Blade didn't have anything to do with the MCU
    yes, it actually did, it's what bankrolled the entire Marvel cinema department, without the success of Blade, there would be no Marvel, there are plenty of interviews and reports you can watch talking about this topic, if Blade had flopped then Marvel as a company might have ceased to exist, it was quite literally the thing that saved the company, just because you're not old enough to remember or if you are old enough you were ignorant of things at the time, but not a lot of 'super hero' related media was popular back then, and most stuff that came out was more parody than actual real production.

  5. #4385
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Best you just treat this as a standalone spinoff on the level of 'Shadows of Mordor/War'.
    Agreed. That’s what I am doing. And I’m fairly enjoying it as that. But not kidding myslef this is Tolkein’s world. I actually read the Silmarilion and Unfinished tales that all have that integrity of theme throughout the work.

    While not set in the novel Tim, they could have made their work fit the canon while introducing believably new things that would keep the feel.

    They don’t. They have an acceptable fantasy. It is not a great fantasy story and it isn’t Tolkein nor feels like it. It is Tolkeinesque, it Tolkein-ish if they wanted this to be universally liked as part of Tolkein’s world they should have made far more effort to have done it like his world.

    They chose to do what they did, but are instead trying to market it as Tolkein - and they are being called out for it. Rightfully too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    99% certain that Halbrand is Sauron, they will try to bait others but heard strong rumors it is him.
    100% agree.

    It would be the biggest shock if he isn’t. He is an attractive white male in that incarnation - head and shoulders above his other male leads - proving they know how to cast good looking men, and write them gender appropriate too - which means only one thing to these ultra fem intersections lists, he will be the evil Lord for that is the fate of all such right?

    I jest - but yes. Hal brand would make the ideal Sauron at least for the way the current Hollywood lot think of you guys.

  6. #4386
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Oh good. We're back to whining about how terrible it is that "black people are in pop culture productions" again? Fantastic...

    I guess the 20 pages of whining about an elf killing a troll was finally enough.
    lol that really got me... I was coming back and forth into this thread being like 'episode 3 is out and we are still talking about one scene from the first episode?'

    This shows loudest complaints can be whittled down to 'women killing troll bad', and 'black people in middle-earth bad'. any other constructive criticism, along with mine is completely thrown out he window. God forbid we have 12 pages talking about the directing or the production or pacing. or even the writing (all of which I have some issues with). But nope gotta keep the he same old.

    Might as well name this the Middle-Earth racial and sexual debate thread.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-10 at 09:44 AM.
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  7. #4387
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    lol that really got me... I was coming back and forth into this thread being like 'episode 3 is out and we are still talking about one scene from the first episode?'

    This shows loudest complaints can be whittled down to 'women killing troll bad', and 'black people in middle-earth bad'. any other constructive criticism, along with mine is completely thrown out he window. God forbid we have 12 pages talking about the directing or the production or pacing. or even the writing. But nope gotta keep the he same old.

    Might as well name this the Middle-Earth racial and sexual debate thread.
    If you read the arguments you would see that most of it kept going because of strawman's and mischaracterizations of arguments.

    The complaints were simple, but kept going because of people who didn't like it that people didn't like it just decided to constantly rephrase their arguments. So people feel the need to defend their view because being attacked for a view they don't hold isn't exactly pleasasnt.

    Lots of bad faith arguments were had.
    But yeah, it's kind of annoying that some actually keep arguing with people who do engage in bad faith arguments which just needlessly keeps it going... but it's a forum and people are allowed to post.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-10 at 09:47 AM.
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  8. #4388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    If you read the arguments you would see that most of it kept going because of strawman's and mischaracterizations of arguments.

    The complaints were simple, but kept going because of people who didn't like it that people didn't like it just decided to constantly rephrase their arguments. So people feel the need to defend their view because being attacked for a view they don't hold isn't exactly pleasasnt.

    Lots of bad faith arguments were had.
    Well if that's the case my strawman of trying to swerve the conversation out of these debates hasn't worked. People only like strawmen made from black people and women it seems. I am betting my thread complaining about this (what you quoted) will get more than my review I made of episode 3, and speaking of which has anyone but me, even spoken about episode 3 yet? anyone? And if they have the wave of racial and sexual debates have smothered it so I havent been able to find it. Probably caught up in the tide of female elf takes down troll arguments and those debating them on it. lol

    I just want to talk about the show.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-10 at 09:54 AM.
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  9. #4389
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Well if that's the case my strawman of trying to swerve the conversation out of these debates hasn't worked. People only like strawmen made from black people and women it seems. I am betting my thread complaining about this will get more than my review I made of episode 3, and speaking of which has anyone but me, even spoken about episode 3 yet? anyone? And if they have the wave of racial and sexual debates have smothered it so I havent been able to find it. Probably caught up in the tide of female elf takes down troll arguments.
    Uh yes, people have... including me and I even replied to your review...
    But I guess you didn't read it? You can see plenty of people talking about Ep03.
    Thing is, most people seem to agree it's pretty bad. And agreements rarely develop into discussions on a bigger scale.

    Not sure I understand your comments about strawmans from black people and women... I don't think anyone enjoys strawmans. Except the ones making it I guess, but they are usually in arguments for the sake of being right or to correct people, not to actually have a discussion, hence the fallacies. Some form of verbal masturbation is my guess.

    Thing is, the arguments about the troll and the first scenes were never about sexism or race... bad faith people came in and tried to make it about it. So naturally people try to defend themselves from that since that were never their argument. Which is another evidence of people engaging in bad faith. People didn't like it that people didn't like the scenes, so lets try to make it into sexism and then argue about that instead... etc etc.


    I didn't mean this for the be a focus either. Just gave my view which you can see literally all around MMOC in general and hell even in the current landscape of discussion across the board, both online and offline. Most discussions that goes on for a long time is rarely about the argument it started with, it's about "you said this, therefor you meant this" and people defending with "my argument is this and I meant this". This can be reduced if people just stop engaging with someone as soon as they show that they try to warp your argument. But I do understand the feeling of defending yourself when someone warps your argument into something not even yourself agree with.


    We can leave it at that if you want.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-10 at 10:09 AM.
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  10. #4390
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Agreed. That’s what I am doing. And I’m fairly enjoying it as that. But not kidding myslef this is Tolkein’s world. I actually read the Silmarilion and Unfinished tales that all have that integrity of theme throughout the work.

    While not set in the novel Tim, they could have made their work fit the canon while introducing believably new things that would keep the feel.

    They don’t. They have an acceptable fantasy. It is not a great fantasy story and it isn’t Tolkein nor feels like it. It is Tolkeinesque, it Tolkein-ish if they wanted this to be universally liked as part of Tolkein’s world they should have made far more effort to have done it like his world.

    They chose to do what they did, but are instead trying to market it as Tolkein - and they are being called out for it. Rightfully too.

    - - - Updated - - -



    100% agree.

    It would be the biggest shock if he isn’t. He is an attractive white male in that incarnation - head and shoulders above his other male leads - proving they know how to cast good looking men, and write them gender appropriate too - which means only one thing to these ultra fem intersections lists, he will be the evil Lord for that is the fate of all such right?

    I jest - but yes. Hal brand would make the ideal Sauron at least for the way the current Hollywood lot think of you guys.
    I'll be curious to see what the (few) stans will say now.

    Their usual excuse is "there's very little material to work with, they have to invent new characters and storylines!!!", but we already know that Sauron during the Second Age assumed the form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts, to deceive the elves.

    We also know that he avoided Galadriel at all cost, since she was the only one who could sense he's an impostor.

    So what excuse will they use this time for coming up with this generic asspull no name character like Halbrand when they could have just used Annatar? Will they still say that they had to pull stuff out of nowhere? But how is that valid excuse in this case? And I bet they'll come up with a romance plotline where Galadriel, the strong independent womanzzz that she is, will try to change him (meanwhile the men will all shun him and try to kill him). Even though in the source material Annatar avoided Galadriel.

    And for the record, Sauron's illusion form in the SA most definitely did not look like a filthy homeless hobo. Quite the opposite in fact. The elves trusted and revered him for his beauty, after all. It's hard to be trusted and revered if you look like Halbrand.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2022-09-10 at 10:22 AM.

  11. #4391
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    yes, it actually did, it's what bankrolled the entire Marvel cinema department, without the success of Blade, there would be no Marvel, there are plenty of interviews and reports you can watch talking about this topic, if Blade had flopped then Marvel as a company might have ceased to exist, it was quite literally the thing that saved the company, just because you're not old enough to remember or if you are old enough you were ignorant of things at the time, but not a lot of 'super hero' related media was popular back then, and most stuff that came out was more parody than actual real production.
    It was a success at the box office but not for Marvel.
    Things began to change in the late ’90s, when Marvel began to find its feet again: Blade was a hit, and X-Men began to finally move ahead at Fox. The pickings for Marvel, however, were slim: Blade made $70 million at the box office, but the reward for Marvel, according to a Slate article, was a measly $25,000. The X-Men and Spider-Man movies were huge hits, but Marvel only saw a small percentage of the profits. “We were giving away the best part of our business,” Arad mourned.

    So maybe it started the MCU in a way. But not how they wanted too. It took a huge reform after movies like Blade, X-Men and Spider-man to actual begin the MCU.

    But this is getting way too off-topic.

  12. #4392
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I'll be curious to see what the (few) stans will say now.

    Their usual excuse is "there's very little material to work with, they have to invent new characters and storylines!!!", but we already know that Sauron during the Second Age assumed the form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts, to deceive the elves.

    We also know that he avoided Galadriel at all cost, since she was the only one who could sense he's an impostor.

    So what excuse will they use this time for coming up with this generic asspull no name character like Halbrand when they could have just used Annatar? Will they still say that they had to pull stuff out of nowhere? But how is that valid excuse in this case? And I bet they'll come up with a romance plotline where Galadriel, the strong independent womanzzz that she is, will try to change him (meanwhile the men will all shun him and try to kill him). Even though in the source material Annatar avoided Galadriel.

    And for the record, Sauron's illusion form in the SA most definitely did not look like a filthy homeless hobo. Quite the opposite in fact. The elves trusted and revered him for his beauty, after all. It's hard to be trusted and revered if you look like Halbrand.
    Has it been confirmed anywhere that it's Halbrand? It seems quite unlikely that it's him, or the star hobo. Everyone's just playing "Secret Sauron" at this point. You've got to remember this is a 5 season arc we're watching. My money's on Halbrand just being what was revealed in this latest episode. As a human king, he's most likely to end up as a Nazgul.

  13. #4393
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So any theories on Sauron's appearance?

    Is he the Stranger? Adar? Halbrand?

    I think Sauron is still gonna be a secret till later, and these are all just different characters. Lots of red herrings. I think Halbrand might end up being one of the 9 though, possibly even the Witch King of Angmar.
    Said it earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    I really hope all those red herrings are red herrings. Halbrad's interest in smithing/forging. Demonstrating charisma, cunning and deception. Not-so-subtle hints of a hidden strength. Being evasive about his identity and past as leader of a people who once allied with Morgoth. It can't actually be you-know-who, right?
    I would be shocked if the writers really had made it that obvious. But IMO Adar is the red herring. We're probably meant to think "Ooohhh, he might be Sauron!" and currently there are only three characters in the show whose identity is uncertain: Halbrand, Meteor Man, and Adar. Meteor Man is almost certainly a blue wizard, and Adar being obviously evil is, well, too obvious. That leaves Halbrand. However, it's possible that Sauron hasn't yet been introduced into the show. That is the most likely situation IMO.

    edit: In fact Sauron probably won't even be in the first season, which is why they invented Adar to tide us over til Sauron enters the show proper.
    Last edited by DarkAmbient; 2022-09-10 at 11:12 AM.

  14. #4394
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So any theories on Sauron's appearance?

    Is he the Stranger? Adar? Halbrand?

    I think Sauron is still gonna be a secret till later, and these are all just different characters. Lots of red herrings. I think Halbrand might end up being one of the 9 though, possibly even the Witch King of Angmar.
    Not Adar...
    They played too heavily into the Sauron look with the gauntlet and an actual elvish look to him.
    Odd place for Sauron to be located at tbh. It just screams "DON'T LOOK AT HALBRAND, LOOK AT THIS GUY".

    Halbrand seems like the safe pick. Talking about his bloodlines connection with Morgoth and then throw in how he is tainted from being of said line seems like such an easy "sympathy" card to gain trust. Which seemed to have worked with Galadriel.
    Sauron needs to get to Lindon and have people trust him, Galadriel bringing him back and vouching for him is perfect for that.

    However, what speaks against that is just how Galadriel is written so far. Her bringing Sauron to Lindon would be such an antithesis to how they try to portray her.
    And if it isn't Sauron it feels like a red herring written for the audience sake more so than the story.

    Of course 5 seasons to go... so it can be anyone at this point.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2022-09-10 at 11:11 AM.
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  15. #4395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Uh yes, people have... including me and I even replied to your review...
    But I guess you didn't read it? You can see plenty of people talking about Ep03.
    Thing is, most people seem to agree it's pretty bad. And agreements rarely develop into discussions on a bigger scale.

    Not sure I understand your comments about strawmans from black people and women... I don't think anyone enjoys strawmans. Except the ones making it I guess, but they are usually in arguments for the sake of being right or to correct people, not to actually have a discussion, hence the fallacies. Some form of verbal masturbation is my guess.

    Thing is, the arguments about the troll and the first scenes were never about sexism or race... bad faith people came in and tried to make it about it. So naturally people try to defend themselves from that since that were never their argument. Which is another evidence of people engaging in bad faith. People didn't like it that people didn't like the scenes, so lets try to make it into sexism and then argue about that instead... etc etc.
    I never said it was about that, more the fact that people are unusually focused on it, and I do agree I wasn't huge fan of the scene structure myself. but I never thought it was something we have to talk about for 13 pages :P

    And yes if you can dig out my review I also said it was my weakest episode, think I gave it a 4/10, too much Galadriel for my liking, and its not her fault, I am sure she's a fine actress, but I do blame the directing and dialogue she is given. The best parts i like about the show were not even in this episode which was Elrond and the dwarfs. How comes we havent for 13 pages of stuff we like instead. I think she show has has stuff to like. And I don't believe in any review that says its all bad. There are some nice locations, the sound score is amazing. Speaking of which I will probably get the soudntrack

    Not sure how many zoomer here but I loved seeing Lenny Henry a comedian I have grown up with in this show. He has been a joy to watch.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-10 at 11:38 AM.
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  16. #4396
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    And yes if you can dig out my review I also said it was my weakest episode, think I gave it a 4/10, too much Galadriel for my liking, and its not her fault, I am sure she's a fine actress, but I do blame the directing and dialogue she is given. The best parts i like about the show were not even in this episode which was Elrond and the dwarfs. How comes we havent for 13 pages of stuff we like instead. I think she show has has stuff to like. And I don't believe in any review that says its all bad. There are some nice locations, the sound score is amazing. Speaking of which I will probably get the soudntrack

    Not sure how many zoomer here but I loved seeing Lenny Henry a comedian I have grown up with in this show. He has been a joy to watch.
    Because in general, agreements tend to lend to poor discussions.
    For me, the soundtrack is good on it's own... I just find it overbearing, they crank up the volume way to much and often use the music as a way to show what you should feel instead of writing scenes that makes you feel and having music enhance said scene. So even if the music is decent, the usage of it isn't imo.

    So far Halbrand and Elendil are the highlights for me. Halbrand shows a lot more range of emotions in his scenes which makes them more interesting to follow. They actually seem to develop him at a better pace too compared to every other character. In just this episode we have seen way more of who he is as a person than most of the main-main characters.
    Elendil shows great care in his performance as well, to me at least. His elvish and the way he pronounces names makes it seem natural as if he has spoken it for a long time. Hope we see more of him.
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  17. #4397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Because in general, agreements tend to lend to poor discussions.
    For me, the soundtrack is good on it's own... I just find it overbearing, they crank up the volume way to much and often use the music as a way to show what you should feel instead of writing scenes that makes you feel and having music enhance said scene. So even if the music is decent, the usage of it isn't imo.

    So far Halbrand and Elendil are the highlights for me. Halbrand shows a lot more range of emotions in his scenes which makes them more interesting to follow. They actually seem to develop him at a better pace too compared to every other character. In just this episode we have seen way more of who he is as a person than most of the main-main characters.
    Elendil shows great care in his performance as well, to me at least. His elvish and the way he pronounces names makes it seem natural as if he has spoken it for a long time. Hope we see more of him.
    I know, sadly I was being rhetorical.
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  18. #4398
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I know, sadly I was being rhetorical.
    fair enough
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  19. #4399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Because in general, agreements tend to lend to poor discussions.
    For me, the soundtrack is good on it's own... I just find it overbearing, they crank up the volume way to much and often use the music as a way to show what you should feel instead of writing scenes that makes you feel and having music enhance said scene. So even if the music is decent, the usage of it isn't imo.

    So far Halbrand and Elendil are the highlights for me. Halbrand shows a lot more range of emotions in his scenes which makes them more interesting to follow. They actually seem to develop him at a better pace too compared to every other character. In just this episode we have seen way more of who he is as a person than most of the main-main characters.
    Elendil shows great care in his performance as well, to me at least. His elvish and the way he pronounces names makes it seem natural as if he has spoken it for a long time. Hope we see more of him.
    I completely agree. How much I dislike Galadriel, the acting of those two make up a lot.
    My biggest critique however is the pacing. Whoever directed/edited this show is a f*ing amateur.

  20. #4400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    I completely agree. How much I dislike Galadriel, the acting of those two make up a lot.
    My biggest critique however is the pacing. Whoever directed/edited this show is a f*ing amateur.
    Thats mine too, but its weird becuase the episodes so far seem move too fast and too slow at the same time. Scenes play out too quickly but characters are developed too slowly. While Elrond and Durin and Disa (think thats her name) are the most developed with far less screen time. Galadriel is a mixed bag, I feel she's developed but in a messy kinda way, to a point where I feel its a direction issue with her. The new character Elendil played by Lloyd Owen giving a commanding presence with his role. I like this guy.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-10 at 12:39 PM.
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