Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[DarkAmbient]

Not sure how many zoomer here but I loved seeing Lenny Henry a comedian I have grown up with in this show. He has been a joy to watch.

My name is Deakus. I come from Jamaica. I came over in, uhm, a boat.

I grew up with him too. I do like him, but it's hard to get over the 'Lenny Henry with a terrible fake Irish accent' aspect of it.

[AtomR]

I'm sorry but did you just say you enjoyed The Hobbit more than The Lord of the Rings?

Exactly! I stop reading after that.

[InfiniteCharger]

To show what I mean, I apologize for the image size...

Looks alright


What in the fuck??..I think his eyes are trying to escape..."we don't want to be in this show!" also it becomes so blurry all of a sudden..



in 2160p...GG..

Biggest complaints about Numenor:

City is obviously CGI with geometry that doesn't make sense:

City built in a steep narrow ravine with unnatural layout
Bridges going to nowhere (if you look closely)
Carved faces at the bottom of sheer rock near the water (ie. excess CGI elements just because it is CGI)
Ships don't even fit under the bridges even though they are supposed to look huge and massive
There is no natural wide open harbor for docks to build and house ships or sailors
Numenorean ships are tiny, most of them looking like small saiboats or dinghies
The ocean is always calm when they are on the water in those ships (because they wouldn't last otherwise)
Obviously most of these scenes are never filmed on or near any actual bodies of water
Most deck shots look obviously like CGI as there are calm seas, no water splashing onto deck, etc (same for elven trip to Valinor)
No seagulls


VS

In his canonical works Tolkien wrote most revealingly of the great fleets of Númenórean ships in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth, in particular Part Two, Chapter Two: Aldarion and Erendis.

Surprisingly, the Númenóreans were not natural sailors and despite Telerin instruction it took six hundred years before Vëantur, the first Captain of the King's Ships, achieved a successful round-trip voyage to Middle-earth.

It was under King Meneldur's son, the "Great Captain" Aldarion who married Vëantur's daughtor, that the Guild of Venturers arose and Númenórean mastery of the seas truly began. Aldarion "... was ever eager to build greater vessels." He received much knowledge from Círdan the Shipwright, but constantly experimented with new designs that he tested himself on years-long voyages.

Subsequently Númenóreans developed a passion for the sea. "Above all arts they nourished ship-building and sea-craft, and they became mariners whose like shall never be again since the world was diminished ...".

But it was the last king, Ar-Pharazôn, who built the greatest fleets ever seen in Middle-earth.

Firstly, to make war upon Sauron: "... he began in that time to smithy great hoard of weapons, and many ships of war he built and stored them with his arms; and when all was ready he himself set sail with his host into the East.".

Finally, a mad quest fomented by Sauron to conquer the Blessed Realm by force: "... the fleets of the Númenóreans darkened the sea upon the west of the land, and they were like an archipelago of a thousand isles; their masts were as a forest upon the mountains, and their banners were golden and black."

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gulls

[Hansworst]

Because it's well known how oceans behave on a flat planet?

[druchii5]

The scene where Galadriel is in super slow motion riding a horse with an excessive smile on her face was just too ridiculous and so unnecessary. Don't know what they were thinking with that one.

[Kumorii]

The scene where Galadriel is in super slow motion riding a horse with an excessive smile on her face was just too ridiculous and so unnecessary. Don't know what they were thinking with that one.

behind the scenes shot of goofing around on set slipped in.

[Mace]

I'll be curious to see what the (few) stans will say now.

Their usual excuse is "there's very little material to work with, they have to invent new characters and storylines!!!", but we already know that Sauron during the Second Age assumed the form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts, to deceive the elves.

We also know that he avoided Galadriel at all cost, since she was the only one who could sense he's an impostor.

So what excuse will they use this time for coming up with this generic asspull no name character like Halbrand when they could have just used Annatar? Will they still say that they had to pull stuff out of nowhere? But how is that valid excuse in this case? And I bet they'll come up with a romance plotline where Galadriel, the strong independent womanzzz that she is, will try to change him (meanwhile the men will all shun him and try to kill him). Even though in the source material Annatar avoided Galadriel.

And for the record, Sauron's illusion form in the SA most definitely did not look like a filthy homeless hobo. Quite the opposite in fact. The elves trusted and revered him for his beauty, after all. It's hard to be trusted and revered if you look like Halbrand.

You clearly see the whole romance plotline too - but Galadriel ahs a husband doesn't she, and she's a Noldor too, also weren't elf-human relationships like only 2 ever happened? [fine you could argue many more could have been around and only two reached marriage status, but the way Tolkein framed it, made me feel ike the rare exception of 2 is all - and that was because the human halves were truly exceptional, enough to impress elves, Elrond's parents being the first, and Aragorn/Arwen the second).

Ifat least Annatar appeared as an elf and caught Galadiriel's attention, the romance vibes may have been more in line, but then canonically, isn't she supposed to have a husband

[Triceron]

Well if that's the case my strawman of trying to swerve the conversation out of these debates hasn't worked. People only like strawmen made from black people and women it seems. I am betting my thread complaining about this (what you quoted) will get more than my review I made of episode 3, and speaking of which has anyone but me, even spoken about episode 3 yet? anyone? And if they have the wave of racial and sexual debates have smothered it so I havent been able to find it. Probably caught up in the tide of female elf takes down troll arguments and those debating them on it. lol

I just want to talk about the show.

You serious dude? Plenty of Ep 3 discussion was had. Are you only reading your own posts amd ignoring literally everything else but the complaints on black people and women or something?

[bledgor]

Thats mine too, but its weird becuase the episodes so far seem move too fast and too slow at the same time. Scenes play out too quickly but characters are developed too slowly. While Elrond and Durin and Disa (think thats her name) are the most developed with far less screen time. Galadriel is a mixed bag, I feel she's developed but in a messy kinda way, to a point where I feel its a direction issue with her. The new character Elendil played by Lloyd Owen giving a commanding presence with his role. I like this guy.

As a buddy of mine said, they move quickly to another scene so they can do nothing of importance. Like I get world building, but you have to make the watcher invested in the world with some hook before you build it around them. I guess they were trying to make that Galadriel, but the way she is portrayed is so unlikable it doesn't work. The only character I have really liked is Elendil (though he has some bad dialogue too, no fault of the actor), with the dwarfs being fine too (Duin III seemed perfect, but he only got like 2 lines). Halbrand is okay, but think he just gets elevated by the rest being stinkers.

The show does a lot of telling and not a lot of showing somehow. Like we see Arondir get captured, fair, but then suddenly every single elf in his troop was captured what the same/next day? After they all missed the swath of trees being cut down, and they were basically (the ones we know of at least) taken alive just to be killed later in the episode? I know they wanted to raise the stakes and make use feel something, but honestly I just didn't care as I had meet the characters once. You can tell that Payne and Mckay had some clue about what to do, but no clue how to pull it off.

You clearly see the whole romance plotline too - but Galadriel ahs a husband doesn't she, and she's a Noldor too, also weren't elf-human relationships like only 2 ever happened?

3, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril and Aragon and Arwen, though I think there were another 1-2 that mentioned relationships but not marriage. They did go something new in the show in that they finally had a male elf and female human pairing with Arondir and Bronwyn, but man if they even go through with this shipping of Galadriel and Halbrand they are subtly implying it will be so fucking bad, and if he is Sauron, I think I will take that as proof Payne/Mckay actually hate Tolkien and want to destroy his characters.

[Hansworst]

As a buddy of mine said, they move quickly to another scene so they can do nothing of importance. Like I get world building, but you have to make the watcher invested in the world with some hook before you build it around them. I guess they were trying to make that Galadriel, but the way she is portrayed is so unlikable it doesn't work. The only character I have really liked is Elendil (though he has some bad dialogue too, no fault of the actor), with the dwarfs being fine too (Duin III seemed perfect, but he only got like 2 lines). Halbrand is okay, but think he just gets elevated by the rest being stinkers.

The show does a lot of telling and not a lot of showing somehow. Like we see Arondir get captured, fair, but then suddenly every single elf in his troop was captured what the same/next day? After they all missed the swath of trees being cut down, and they were basically (the ones we know of at least) taken alive just to be killed later in the episode? I know they wanted to raise the stakes and make use feel something, but honestly I just didn't care as I had meet the characters once. You can tell that Payne and Mckay had some clue about what to do, but no clue how to pull it off.

Why do people think a next scene is immediately taking place after the previous one?

[Triceron]

The scene where Galadriel is in super slow motion riding a horse with an excessive smile on her face was just too ridiculous and so unnecessary. Don't know what they were thinking with that one.

That one scene took me out of the enjoyment I had taking in the beautiful scenery. It felt so out of place.

[bledgor]

Why do people think a next scene is immediately taking place after the previous one?

I mean I never said that? I was implying the lack of them showing anytime passing, how it certainly doesn't help when we have no time/time scale in the show to guide us to anything.

For the Arondir situation we are never shown him as prisoner for a time period adjusting then the Elves coming in later, we just see him and behold they are there too (again was more pointing out the lack of showing vs telling than complaining about things happening at the same time).

Things happen, we move to the next scene, and we have to infer how much/little time passes. They don't even give us snow or changing of trees to signify seasons. As a watcher you have to guess how much time is passing, as you never get ANY CLUES even to get a reference, things just happen, quite a bit off screen, and you get to infer (because the writers couldn't be bothered to develop a script that even subtly informs us) everything in between the scenes.

[Mace]

3, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril and Aragon and Arwen, though I think there were another 1-2 that mentioned relationships but not marriage. They did go something new in the show in that they finally had a male elf and female human pairing with Arondir and Bronwyn, but man if they even go through with this shipping of Galadriel and Halbrand they are subtly implying it will be so fucking bad, and if he is Sauron, I think I will take that as proof Payne/Mckay actually hate Tolkien and want to destroy his characters.

The sad thing is that they believe they ar doing him justice, and enhancing his work.


The culture of subversion is ripe and now is the standard and even expected amongst the Hollywood bubble, and it is indeed a bubble.


Subversion, like JJ Abrams loves to do, works well when it is the un expected exception to the normal canon - often in a place where the nromal line is done badly or the majority of things that use the classic trope are either unimaginative or just over done - so doing a subversion comes off well.

Subversion has never been good, it's only buzz was it's novelty, but when everything now subverts, it's actually boring and just plain ol bad,. They think though it's great, so they 're doing all this mixing thinking it's a good thing and enhancer, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they don't even know why this is bad, or failing.


Anyway, the sort of mixtures they have in the show, would have made much more sense in a world AFTER Lord of the Rings, not one set before, which has some rather clear defining lines, and needs to be established in the original canon completely, to show the wonder and detail of Tolkein's work, before you start thinking of doing subversions or "re-interpretations".

My point is people don't know what the original established stuff is well enough before now going to throw in their kinks.


And thanks for the elf/human couplings - After seeing Arwen/Aragorn, i would have focused on more showing the usual, an elf/elf romance which is the norm, and which we've never seen.. but I'm glad they did not, because they totally miss the elves - without much, look how different the LotR trilogy elves come off compared to these ones.

[Villager720]

The scene where Galadriel is in super slow motion riding a horse with an excessive smile on her face was just too ridiculous and so unnecessary. Don't know what they were thinking with that one.

I’ve been neutral on the show thus far (which surprised me honestly, thought I’d have come down hard either way by now) but that scene and some others in episode 3 were deeply cringe. And bewildering. Well beyond anything thus far.

[eschatological]

From an outside perspective you appear to be going backwards though, you say black panther was celebrated, but the first successful comicbook hero was Blade. You have huge stars like will smith and Morgan freeman that have been around forever, but looking back to when I was young we got Wesley snipes and Eddie Murphy as cool action stars. Did you guys suddenly forget about them or what happened?

I generally don't think representing real life in a fictional world is a good idea, it's made to take you out of the real world, escapeism. I wouldn't want a Trump/Biden joke in my fantasy movies.
But there are many problems, look at the fresh Buzzcuts, or Celebrimborn being old enough that he needs to thinking about the retirement home, those things also take me out of the fantasy presented.

Forever, lol, they've been around since the late 80s. That's in most of our lifetimes.

Sidney Poitier is probably the earliest example you can find of a black leading man, and he was one...in the 60s. Then cinema, seeing that black people loved Sidney Poitier, instead of incorporating them into mainstream Hollywood, spun off a whole industry of blaxploitation films, trying to keep black cinema "separate but equal (but not really ever equal as the name blaxploitation implies)" from Hollywood. Even major sitcoms were separated this way. It wasn't til the 80s that black actors started finding success mainstream. And it wasn't til The Cosby Show and Fresh Prince that white people really started watching shows compromised mainly of black actors.

This isn't some old, long-healed scar. This happened recently.

[ringpriest]

I'll be curious to see what the (few) stans will say now.

Their usual excuse is "there's very little material to work with, they have to invent new characters and storylines!!!", but we already know that Sauron during the Second Age assumed the form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts, to deceive the elves.

We also know that he avoided Galadriel at all cost, since she was the only one who could sense he's an impostor.

So what excuse will they use this time for coming up with this generic asspull no name character like Halbrand when they could have just used Annatar? Will they still say that they had to pull stuff out of nowhere? But how is that valid excuse in this case? And I bet they'll come up with a romance plotline where Galadriel, the strong independent womanzzz that she is, will try to change him (meanwhile the men will all shun him and try to kill him). Even though in the source material Annatar avoided Galadriel.

And for the record, Sauron's illusion form in the SA most definitely did not look like a filthy homeless hobo. Quite the opposite in fact. The elves trusted and revered him for his beauty, after all. It's hard to be trusted and revered if you look like Halbrand.

Annatar wasn't an illusion, a casual disguise Sauron could put on and take off like a Scooby-doo villain's rubber mask. To become the Lord of Gifts and successfully fool Celebrimbor, et al, Sauron had to truly invest himself in the role. Sure, he could keep his dark purposes hidden in his heart (which is why a keen judge of souls like Galadriel would have nothing to do with him), but it was a very thorough guise.

One of the questions in the lore (which I sadly suspect will go completely unexplored in the show, along with much other potential) is why, after the (hilarious) flop of his Ring-scheme, it takes Sauron the better part of a century to actually go to war with the Elves. The answer is in the recently published The Nature of Middle-earth. While Annatar was a brilliant form for deceiving elves, it was a terrible one for ruling Orcs and Men as a dark lord. When Annatar tried to go dark-lording on the sly while on vacation from Eriador, he got laughed at. By orcs. Sauron had to abandon his "life" as Annatar and take on a a new and more terrible aspect in order to become the Dark Lord of the Second Age.

When I first heard about The Rings of Power, I was hoping that they'd focus on the Annatar-Sauron deceit and transformation. We should like Annatar. He should genuinely be friends and collaborators with Celebrimbor. And that should make his betrayal and subsequent acts all the more horrific. Instead, I fear Sauron/Annatar is going to become a mystery-box, where the mystery is far more important that the contents.


On a tangential note, if Halbrand is Sauron (as I hope he is not, though they certainly seem to be hinting pretty hard), then episode 2 should be seen as Ulmo doing his best to kill him.

[Orby]

So I rewatched episode 3, and I just noticed there was a part where one of the Númenóreans called Galadriel, 'knife ears' as a slur. The RoP writers big fans of Dragon Age it seems :P

[Triceron]

So I rewatched episode 3, and I just noticed there was a part where one of the Númenóreans called Galadriel, 'knife ears' as a slur. The RoP writers big fans of Dragon Age it seems :P

I think they use that slur once in the southlands bar in the first episode

[Orby]

I think they use that slur once in the southlands bar in the first episode

Its the first time i picked up on it. Was trying to think has that term been thrown around in other media or even in Tolkien before? Because I know it specifically from Dragon Age. If it hasn't then someone in the writing team loves Dragon Age. :P

Which is a compliment to the dragon Age franchise if I must say :P

[Kumorii]

I think they use that slur once in the southlands bar in the first episode

Yeah, it's the first line said to Arondir in the bar from the young guy.