Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Dhrizzle]

I'll be curious to see what the (few) stans will say now.

Their usual excuse is "there's very little material to work with, they have to invent new characters and storylines!!!", but we already know that Sauron during the Second Age assumed the form of Annatar, Lord of Gifts, to deceive the elves.

We also know that he avoided Galadriel at all cost, since she was the only one who could sense he's an impostor.

So what excuse will they use this time for coming up with this generic asspull no name character like Halbrand when they could have just used Annatar? Will they still say that they had to pull stuff out of nowhere? But how is that valid excuse in this case? And I bet they'll come up with a romance plotline where Galadriel, the strong independent womanzzz that she is, will try to change him (meanwhile the men will all shun him and try to kill him). Even though in the source material Annatar avoided Galadriel.

And for the record, Sauron's illusion form in the SA most definitely did not look like a filthy homeless hobo. Quite the opposite in fact. The elves trusted and revered him for his beauty, after all. It's hard to be trusted and revered if you look like Halbrand.

Sauron has always been capable of taking varied forms. Personally I'm hoping he turns out the be Halbrand, the wizardzzz dude, the crazy swordzzz, the corrupt looking elf leading the orczzz and Annatar. BTW in the Silmarillion Annatar didn't avoid Galadriel and she couldn't tell he was an imposter, she just got a bad vibe from the dude and he had to put up with her scorn with good grace.

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My name is Deakus. I come from Jamaica. I came over in, uhm, a boat.

I grew up with him too. I do like him, but it's hard to get over the 'Lenny Henry with a terrible fake Irish accent' aspect of it.

They should have made the Harfoots speak with a Brummy accent, apart from anything else it would have been a cool nod to Tolkien describing himself as "a Hobbit in all ways but size" if the forebears of the Hobbits sounded like the people of the city Tolkien was raised in.

[Thelxi]

It's not getting better it's getting worse. The CGI is great. Expensive, tasteful and gives us a great overview of the scenery and setting of the story. Then it cuts to a regular set and the soap opera begins. Very uneven.

The writing is not great, and it needed good writing. Like why spent 5+ minutes of an ambitious 8 episode show like this, on one of the characters stealing a badge, getting drunk and then getting beaten up by a gang of nameless characters. Like god so much money and this is the most interesting thing to spend it on? the writing is no better or worse than any regular TV show, but looks very bad trying to do Tolkien.

And the costumes. So squeaky clean. It's like everyone is an elf. Even the shit Hobbits have in their wigs looks like polished plastic.

Speaking of elves and hobbits, the only thing that sets them apart are prosthetic ears and wigs. The people playing them don't lean one way or the other. I haven't read the books in almost 20 years at this point, but I sure remember Tolkien talking about elves and how beautiful and graceful they were, and I think it was Bilbo that had like a huge crush on them. The elves here are.. nothing of the sort. Ugly, average looking joes with pointy ears.

Not a fan of the orcs either. Basically this show is like Hercules/Xena with a big budget.

[hulkgor]

I really enjoyed the newest episode. The only aspect i disliked, and already mentioned often here, was the slow motion, close-up shot of Galadriel laughing\smiling\whatever while riding the horse. It just felt completely off.

Apart from that, i'm really enjoying the show so far.

[Biomega]

I really enjoyed the newest episode. The only aspect i disliked, and already mentioned often here, was the slow motion, close-up shot of Galadriel laughing\smiling\whatever while riding the horse. It just felt completely off.

That was some 1990s bullshit is what it was.

Who the fuck let this go through in 2022, on a AAA show. Film students would get their asses kicked by their professors if they turned this in for a class.

[Nerovar]

Its the first time i picked up on it. Was trying to think has that term been thrown around in other media or even in Tolkien before? Because I know it specifically from Dragon Age. If it hasn't then someone in the writing team loves Dragon Age. :P

Which is a compliment to the dragon Age franchise if I must say :P

It doesn't make much sense in a Tolkien context for several reasons the most important being that Elven ears are leaf-shaped (not knife-shaped) and don't look like the prevalent depictions of Elves we see today. I think the Peter Jackson movies actually did a decent job with this because you can clearly recognize Elves without ever looking at their ears and when you do see them they look very similar to human ears that just happen to be slightly pointy. They simply aren't supposed to be the distinguishing features of Elves. They're never even mentioned in the books. So calling them "knife-ears" is effectively just a weird case of flanderization working its way backwards through time to corrupt the image of the original.

[haediff]

I love LOTR but this show you need to be 2 beers deep for some of the dialogue. Not a bad show but doesn’t hold a candle to the movies.

[rhorle]

It doesn't make much sense in a Tolkien context for several reasons the most important being that Elven ears are leaf-shaped (not knife-shaped) and don't look like the prevalent depictions of Elves we see today.

In Lost Road the origin of the a word in the elven language references pointy ears so it isn't an entirely foreign concept to Tolkien. He delibertly made them similar to Humans since the link between the two races. Leafs also have points to a degree. So while they are not as sharp as other fantasy works it is still a slur that fits. And remember you called slightly pointy a decent job in the Jackson work.

It also has the benefit of not having any real ties to the real world to make it "safe" to use.


http://tolkien.cro.net/elves/ears.html

[Logwyn]

On human-elf relationship, beside Beren-Luthien and Aragorn-Arwen, the most notable that is often forgotten is the other half of their common lineage, that of Tuor-Idril, the latter being a Noldor princess born in Valinor during the Years of the Trees, resulting in the often referenced Earendil, which was the father of both Elrond and Elros, the latter being the first king of Numenor.

Another that is much lower profile but also has direct lore links with LotR is that of Imrahil of Dol Amroth's ancestor with a silvan elf which was a follower of the lost Nimrodel.

I know its a nit-pick but Arwen is a half-elf not an elf.

[bledgor]

I know its a nit-pick but Arwen is a half-elf not an elf.

Its one of those grey areas (and as far as elf-human relationships iirc Tolkien considers it as such) since technically she had the choice to be elf/immortal but with choosing Aragon she choose to be mortal. Also technically she was 3/4's Elvish, since Elrond is half and Celebrian was Elven.

[Ragedaug]

Did it bother you that an Italian-American portrayed a Cuban coke dealer in Scarface? Does it matter that a Mexican Cartel boss is portrayed by a Jewish American actor in Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul? Those actors were perfect for those roles so there's no easy answer here, but it did come at a cost for Cuban and Mexican actors trying to find work. Yet, when the shoe is on the other foot there's massive outrage. Just something to think about.

To me the question is can they look the part. You can look at all the non-Italians in Godfather, for example. I didn't have any problems with Antonio Banderas being cast in 13th Warrior because he was able to look the part of the role. If they cast Banderas as Buliwyf and cast Vladimir Kulich as Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan that would have taken me out of the movie. Even then, I can still appreciate it if some folks say that Banderas didn't look the part as Fahdlan, I would accept that as a valid opinion, I would just disagree with them while admitting it's a very subjective matter.

So all that is to say, it's important to me that what I see in a movie looks like how it would if it were something real. If it doesn't, then I don't get immersed in the movie. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy the story, but there are different levels of being able to enjoy a movie or show. So like digital effects / CGI, it's important to me that they look as real as possible. If I'm watching a movie and my brain says, "that's not real", that also removes my immersion. So it's still possible to enjoy it, but not to the same level.

But if you have a director or writer who says, "we don't care how realistic anything or anyone looks or feels, 'cause it's a pretend story in a pretend place and 'cause magic", I'm probably going to take a hard pass on that story because from the offset, because they are telling me that making me believe their story is not important to them.

[Mace]

On human-elf relationship, beside Beren-Luthien and Aragorn-Arwen, the most notable that is often forgotten is the other half of their common lineage, that of Tuor-Idril, the latter being a Noldor princess born in Valinor during the Years of the Trees, resulting in the often referenced Earendil, which was the father of both Elrond and Elros, the latter being the first king of Numenor.

Another that is much lower profile but also has direct lore links with LotR is that of Imrahil of Dol Amroth's ancestor with a silvan elf which was a follower of the lost Nimrodel.

Thanks too, I was informed about this too by Bledgor

[Ragedaug]

Its one of those grey areas (and as far as elf-human relationships iirc Tolkien considers it as such) since technically she had the choice to be elf/immortal but with choosing Aragon she choose to be mortal. Also technically she was 3/4's Elvish, since Elrond is half and Celebrian was Elven.

You also have the fact that Elrond and Elros were given the choice of belonging to man-kind or the Elves. Elros choose the fate of man and became mortal while Elrond choose the Elves. So while I don't have a problem with folks saying Arwen is 3/4 Elven, I would also accept the idea that the Valor made Elrond a full blood elf, which would make Arwen full blood as well. Picking lots of nits though for sure.

[Mace]

It doesn't subvert. It just exists. There being different skin tones changes little to nothing about the world of Tolkein and it is crazy to keep making the argument that Tolkiens work is some how harmed because it isn't as white as it was before. Even elf human offspring is not a subversion of the lore since Half-Elves exist and were given a choice to keep their immortality or become mortal.

.

I was referring more to the romantic coupling and the re-interpretation of Galadriel, than skin colour of races - I've always longed to see a black elf race - but never thought such existed in Tolkien's world based on what I read, nor felt that his original work needed to be changed
to produce one. However I would welcome developments that produced a race of darker skinned elves fits nicely in a post LotR if it is not canon in the pre LotR world. And if I were introducing black elves, I'd create a reason for a group or race of them and explain it, rather than just race swap individuals to say oh some are dark skinned - when the original author's work never alluded to such. In other owrds, I'd do a good job, of high quality - which is what the Author does - high quality work.


Regarding the skin colour thing and mansplaining warrior Galadriel, these are all changes to bring or modern socio political messaging into the LotR, because the show runners religion dictates. Diversity is a great thing, but the way some of these people are going about it - changing things that need not change is ludicrous - look at the Wheel of Time, loved it, loved it's diversity , and for it's time it was super woke, and still is ticking all the boxes, yet, same company (different show runners) thought, oh no that wasn't enough, and wrote it along the ultra fem intersectional feminism lines which is an extreme point of view I've seen adopted by a very small minority that seems to be running rampant in Hollywood now - it's an example of totally un-necessarily reframing and out right changing things for no quality of story or the original stories messaging - but to convert it (someone else's work) into the religious mindset of the show runners - and their arrogance to think we'd love their version, when the millions of the world loved the original Tolkien and original Robert Jordan.

The result has been a terrible show, not simply because they changed the original author's work, but because what we got was just way worse than the original. If you know the ideology well, you would understand why we got many of the changes in the Wheel of time - because the religion which is an extreme point of view can't have certain things (like men saving women or telling them what to do as an example, and therefore you have to change the author's work completely, the end resulting story just makes little sense, doesn't reflect the good work he did, and is altogether unenjoyable for most people but the few crazies who sincerely believe this is how life is or should be - which is not the fantasy of the Wheel of time).)The worse of these and the biggest identifier is the spitting on men and masculinity - who make up half the population - just because some men are actually broken enough to jump on the ultra fem wagon, perhaps they think that this sort of thing will also captivate men - or maybe they don't want it to appeal to males because "we've had our turn" [common and prevalent view points amongst subscribers to this ideology btw - if true further shows - this is about religion/ideology and messaging, not about entertainment, making money or or drawing as many people in - it's about subverting and coopting popular titles and using them as a platform to bait the public into seeing and haring your messaging (in the hopes to convert them - it's the only explanation that makes sense)


go create your own story and your own IP to preach your message rather than stealing and changing someone else's.

They are turning so many people off diversity with their crazed "convert by force or you're a racist/bad person" tactic, that it is both hurting the very diverse people groups they proclaim to be champions of and promoting the very racism they think they're removing - have you seen critical race theory they're enforcing? that shit is so racist - nothing about harmony and equality - off course for them it's equity not equality - it's creating more racists and homophobes - both amongst the haters and their own followers - they need to stop.


What does this have to do with LotR ? Well not quite as much or as bad as Wheel of Time, but it is the same motivations that seem to have created these "changes" to Tolkien's work they are so proud of, that very few agree with them. To the extent that they seemed to vbe far more concerned about that than producing a quality script.

Yet would we have minded half as much if the production was excellent in every regard? No, most wouldn't, some would still hate it because it was not JRR Tolkien's work or accurately enough based on it.. I would have loved it more, but would have stood firm that this isn't Tolkien, let's not pretend, but if it was good, I'd be writing paragraphs about hte cool stuff while pointing out this isn't Tolkien or doesn't feel like it.


Unfortunately, I have a fair few more to criticise than to praise

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Jackson made some huge changes to the way characters were portrayed which really detract from it feeling like the books. I did really enjoy the films when I watched them but each read (or listen) to the books lowers my opinion.

ANd I wish I could have said the same about the series, but despite it's detractions which are far more than Jackson's, it's production isn't good in enough areas for you to or rather me to think average at best and no more - certainly not worthy of the standard or brand of Tolkien.

I have watched and re-read both the movies and films several times since they were released, and despite the differences and changes the movie made, that work felt like the genuine article - but then it's a great production - it's a hell of a lot more faithful to Tolkien than this series is - even though it changes things.

Proving to you, it's the quality that people have a problem with. That it isn't Tolkien or that it's too far off Tolkien is just one of the issues - if the production was great enough many more may have over looked that and perhaps loved it for what it was, don't think they would kid themselves this is the Tolkien's world, like the Jackson' movies had enough to pass.


While it's not a terrible production - it's way off the standard we would expect for record breaking, bank busting or Tolkien level of work - and tbh, that's by far the biggest issue than having a black dwarf or elf..

Those changes and that of Galadriel also I suspect make a lot of white people and males in particular feel this is another piece of work, from a favourite ip, spitting on or subverting their ethnicity and sex like so much before - there is also that disgust ot get around - why? it's not because it has black characters or warrior man behaving women, it's because they've changed things from the way the author did it, intentionally to this - this is why it feels like an attack to many of them as well as the fans, in particular the purist fans who won't like any changes.

I mean, it was easy to get the purists on board, they didn't have an entire very detailed book to capture, they had a lot of creative freedom within the setting and bounds of Tolkien's universe to create their story, but no, they had to then start making changes to his lore they could easily have written within - they have no excuse.

Also the quality of the story, the plot and it's execution, the scenes, the acting, the presentation of the races like elves etc, it's sub standard, and it doesn't have the distinction you get when you read Tolkien's work, it's a weak production

[Lorgar Aurelian]

3rd episode is my favourite so far numenor looked awesome and with what little I know about them there sense of superiority was on point, that and the orcs were just a joy to watch all the way through.

Only thing I didn’t really like was the ship captains family’s and the ever awful hobbits, though the fall behind get left behind was a bit funny.

[OwenBurton]

I was referring more to the romantic coupling and the re-interpretation of Galadriel
Also the quality of the story, the plot and it's execution, the scenes, the acting, the presentation of the races like elves etc, it's sub standard, and it doesn't have the distinction you get when you read Tolkien's work, it's a weak production

Can everyone PLEASE STFU about skin color in this show? It's completely irrelevant. The shitty acting, laughably bad fight choreography, horrendous pacing, weak CGI, and cringey dialogue are why this show sucks, not the melanin of its actors.

This thread is perhaps my first thread in which I reviewed something, and I am again quite surprised that some people here seem to like the show quite so much, but I guess everyone has different standards and perspectives. It was perhaps NOT the worst show ever, but it was one of the least memorable ones I at least have watched this year. I mostly agree with you both. I watched the 3rd episode, or most of it at least, and while I was slightly more impressed than I was with the first 2 episodes, that was mostly because of the stunning background scenery of Numenor.

However, background and setting aesthetics does not an exceptional and spectacular show in itself make. And I was not very much impressed by Galadriel either. I'm not sure how to describe it, it's like she tries her best to be a strong and bold character, but almost simply comes across as simply insolent, immature and uninspiring, and again, does not seem to be a very "deep" or "complex" character. The female hobbits as before were not that interesting or sophisticated, and I wasn't even sure Arondir or his fellow companion were elves before I noticed their ears.

For comparison with other new episodes released in 2022:
- The Umbrella Academy - A great and fantastic show, a diverse cast with a very riveting science-fiction and time-travel paradox plot, but also somehow very grounded and humorous in its dialogue, and focusing on the very real and relatable themes of family and the affection and conflict found thereof.

I was truly impressed at the way Vonya threatened Marcus, for example, in the first episode, "I ended the world twice...you're just meat in spandex", and then the way Allison was slapped by her former sister after she unleashed her fit of rage, and of course by Klaus's as usual superb performance and development. And the dance scene at the beginning was also ridiculous but thoroughly enjoyable. Most of all, they truly seemed like a real family, flawed and problematic and crazy in all the different ways possible.

- Cobra Kai - Another great show with a fantastic new season. I watched every episode and did not regret a single second. Lots of drama and action and character dynamics, with engaging interactions and a complex yet formidable plot structure that remained well-paced and relatively stable. Many twists and turns and suspense, and the new Korean female character introduced was also very impressive, a master martial artist with a genuine sense of ruthlessness and grace.

- Tehran - Not as great as the other two, but still a very breathtaking political thriller released by Apple, very intense scenes and likable characters set in an exotic setting, very rich in both Persian and Jewish culture.

I highly recommend ALL three shows for everyone here, and then try to compare their general quality and actors' performance with those of Rings of Power. The contrast I think would be stark and considerable. They were simply far more entertaining and edge-of-your seat gripping in ways that I do not think Rings of Power can ever become, and they were far more original and filled with substance also. I don't feel any of that after watching Episode 3 of Rings of Power...no real warmth or joy or sense of fulfillment whatsoever. There is not much character depth or humor or phenomenal acting, no matter how you try to review the series. Yes, the scenery was undoubtedly incredible, but everything else, much less so.

[Nerovar]

In Lost Road the origin of the a word in the elven language references pointy ears so it isn't an entirely foreign concept to Tolkien. He delibertly made them similar to Humans since the link between the two races. Leafs also have points to a degree. So while they are not as sharp as other fantasy works it is still a slur that fits. And remember you called slightly pointy a decent job in the Jackson work.

It also has the benefit of not having any real ties to the real world to make it "safe" to use.


http://tolkien.cro.net/elves/ears.html

Tolkien very heavily implied in letters that Elven ears are somewhat pointed. The point was that Tolkien never thinks it important enough to be mentioned in the books while he does mention things like exceptionally beautiful Men (like Túrin) being mistaken for Elves. So clearly, the ears can't be that striking.

The question is whether the slur makes sense in the setting. It originates in fantasy settings like Dragon Age where A) Elves are much more flanderized and have actual knife-long ears B) Elves are more humanized because they function as an allegory for race relations.

While the Númenóreans did eventually grow envious of the Elves, this is never hinted to manifest in a form of racialized animosity. After all, the line of Númenórean kings started with a Half-Elf (Elrond's brother Elros) and Elven blood seems to run pretty deep as evidenced by Legolas' description of Imrahil.

[Adamas102]

I believe it has been stated Amazon can only use the "Concerning Hobbits" and Appendixes because Embracer Group (they bought Middle-Earth Enterprises formerly owned by the Saul Zaentz company) owns the exclusive rights to a lot of names and other stuff. Embracer is involved in the production somehow so maybe future seasons will see more things used. Rights are crazy things and many authors/estates made silly deals.

Amazon and Embracer Group have the rights to the exact same source material, just for different mediums. Embracer bought the movie/stage/merchandise rights for The Hobbit and LotR that have been passed around since Tolkien sold them himself, while Amazon got the TV show rights directly from the Tolkien Estate. If anything, Amazon probably has more leeway since the Estate is involved in the production of the show.

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I was referring more to the romantic coupling and the re-interpretation of Galadriel, than skin colour of races - I've always longed to see a black elf race - but never thought such existed in Tolkien's world based on what I read, nor felt that his original work needed to be changed to produce one. However I would welcome developments that produced a race of darker skinned elves fits nicely in a post LotR if it is not canon in the pre LotR world. And if I were introducing black elves, I'd create a reason for a group or race of them and explain it, rather than just race swap individuals to say oh some are dark skinned - when the original author's work never alluded to such. In other owrds, I'd do a good job, of high quality - which is what the Author does - high quality work.

You say this like it’s some sort of great, novel, and “correct” idea apparently without realizing that it’s deeply rooted in racist ideology.

White humans and black humans aren’t different subspecies. Biologically speaking we’re all part of the same race. The only reason we have these sorts of racial divisions are because a bunch of people hundreds of years ago decided that skin tone was (among other things) a good indication of superiority/inferiority and the trickle down effect of that still reverberates to this day. Variance in hair color and eye color are no different in a biological sense than skin color, but I highly doubt you’d split a group of white people into different races based on either of those factors because you just haven’t been conditioned to view them the same way.

What you’re essentially saying is that skin color alone makes someone SO different that the only way they could even fit into a fantasy setting is if they’re a completely separate and segregated group. It doesn’t even matter if this fantasy setting doesn’t share our actual history, the only way it seems to make sense to you is if our history of human prejudice is applied to it.

[rhorle]

I was referring more to the romantic coupling and the re-interpretation of Galadriel

So you are upset at something that hasn't yet occurred? The problem isn't the quality of the show but the nebulous "tolkien enough" that it has to meet. That standard changes based on the individual fan and what specific parts they want to take issue with or the parts they nitpick and make in to a bigger problem then they really are.

Hence how you bring "white people and males" into this when white people and males are not threatened by any of the changes in the show and are not a standard for something to be called Tolkien.

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Tolkien very heavily implied in letters that Elven ears are somewhat pointed.

Right. So knife ear works as an insult because there is a point. Your point B also includes Tolkien as he specifically made the differences between Elves and Humans to be low because he considered them to be the same species. It is strange to true and argue that there would be no racial slurs used in Tolkien's World or that the Elves were always universally well-liked.

[DarkAmbient]

That close-up slo-mo scene of Galadriel on the horse was so weird. They tried to make an epic moment out of a completely normal and uneventful horse ride, and ended up lingering too long on it making it seem really out of place.

[Veggie50]

Not only did they put them in for no reason in lore... They actually put them in for NO REASON in story.
Their story do absolutely nothing.
Not-Gandalf is the interesting one, the Harfoots aren't necessary for Not-Gandalf though. They are just another crutch to slow the show down... but the show need to pick up the pace.

That’s an awesome analysis after 3 episodes =P