Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Adamas102]

I believe it has been stated Amazon can only use the "Concerning Hobbits" and Appendixes because Embracer Group (they bought Middle-Earth Enterprises formerly owned by the Saul Zaentz company) owns the exclusive rights to a lot of names and other stuff. Embracer is involved in the production somehow so maybe future seasons will see more things used. Rights are crazy things and many authors/estates made silly deals.

Amazon and Embracer Group have the rights to the exact same source material, just for different mediums. Embracer bought the movie/stage/merchandise rights for The Hobbit and LotR that have been passed around since Tolkien sold them himself, while Amazon got the TV show rights directly from the Tolkien Estate. If anything, Amazon probably has more leeway since the Estate is involved in the production of the show.

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I was referring more to the romantic coupling and the re-interpretation of Galadriel, than skin colour of races - I've always longed to see a black elf race - but never thought such existed in Tolkien's world based on what I read, nor felt that his original work needed to be changed to produce one. However I would welcome developments that produced a race of darker skinned elves fits nicely in a post LotR if it is not canon in the pre LotR world. And if I were introducing black elves, I'd create a reason for a group or race of them and explain it, rather than just race swap individuals to say oh some are dark skinned - when the original author's work never alluded to such. In other owrds, I'd do a good job, of high quality - which is what the Author does - high quality work.

You say this like it’s some sort of great, novel, and “correct” idea apparently without realizing that it’s deeply rooted in racist ideology.

White humans and black humans aren’t different subspecies. Biologically speaking we’re all part of the same race. The only reason we have these sorts of racial divisions are because a bunch of people hundreds of years ago decided that skin tone was (among other things) a good indication of superiority/inferiority and the trickle down effect of that still reverberates to this day. Variance in hair color and eye color are no different in a biological sense than skin color, but I highly doubt you’d split a group of white people into different races based on either of those factors because you just haven’t been conditioned to view them the same way.

What you’re essentially saying is that skin color alone makes someone SO different that the only way they could even fit into a fantasy setting is if they’re a completely separate and segregated group. It doesn’t even matter if this fantasy setting doesn’t share our actual history, the only way it seems to make sense to you is if our history of human prejudice is applied to it.

[rhorle]

I was referring more to the romantic coupling and the re-interpretation of Galadriel

So you are upset at something that hasn't yet occurred? The problem isn't the quality of the show but the nebulous "tolkien enough" that it has to meet. That standard changes based on the individual fan and what specific parts they want to take issue with or the parts they nitpick and make in to a bigger problem then they really are.

Hence how you bring "white people and males" into this when white people and males are not threatened by any of the changes in the show and are not a standard for something to be called Tolkien.

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Tolkien very heavily implied in letters that Elven ears are somewhat pointed.

Right. So knife ear works as an insult because there is a point. Your point B also includes Tolkien as he specifically made the differences between Elves and Humans to be low because he considered them to be the same species. It is strange to true and argue that there would be no racial slurs used in Tolkien's World or that the Elves were always universally well-liked.

[DarkAmbient]

That close-up slo-mo scene of Galadriel on the horse was so weird. They tried to make an epic moment out of a completely normal and uneventful horse ride, and ended up lingering too long on it making it seem really out of place.

[Veggie50]

Not only did they put them in for no reason in lore... They actually put them in for NO REASON in story.
Their story do absolutely nothing.
Not-Gandalf is the interesting one, the Harfoots aren't necessary for Not-Gandalf though. They are just another crutch to slow the show down... but the show need to pick up the pace.

That’s an awesome analysis after 3 episodes =P

[Rathwell]

Not only did they put them in for no reason in lore... They actually put them in for NO REASON in story.
Their story do absolutely nothing.
Not-Gandalf is the interesting one, the Harfoots aren't necessary for Not-Gandalf though. They are just another crutch to slow the show down... but the show need to pick up the pace.

Hot take but so far the Harfoot story is the only one that interests me. The change in look for the Elves with the short hair and stuff irked me greatly, and I am not overly invested in Galadriel as she's being portrayed. I just... Don't find this Galadriel very likeable and I don't see why I should root for her. Plus, so far most of the weird CW-level writing stuff has been in the Elven side of the story.

The Harfoots meanwhile have been consistently cute, fun and interesting and I can't think of any standout moment of poor writing. I really love the feel to that part of the story. I think I'd be more interested in watching week to week if the Harfoot storyline would eclipse Galadriel's.

[Nerovar]

Right. So knife ear works as an insult because there is a point. Your point B also includes Tolkien as he specifically made the differences between Elves and Humans to be low because he considered them to be the same species. It is strange to true and argue that there would be no racial slurs used in Tolkien's World or that the Elves were always universally well-liked.

There are vast differences between Elves and Humans that have nothing to do with physical appearance. They aren't humanized in the same way Dragon Age Elves are (which are essentially just another race with slightly different physical characteristics).

The closest thing you get to a slur is probably "Tark" which is used by Orcs to describe men of Númenórean heritage, which is really just a short form of "tarkil" meaning "High Man". Not much of a slur. Middle Earth is simply not a racialized world in the modern sense unlike Dragon Age. Being Elf-like is a badge of honor for Men therefor the idea of having "racial slurs" for Elves is patently absurd. You don't make derogatory terms for beings you are envious of and that are better than you in pretty much every way.

"I should say that they [elves] represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility—the Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men), and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to ‘nobility’.”

[rhorle]

There are vast differences between Elves and Humans that have nothing to do with physical appearance. They aren't humanized in the same way Dragon Age Elves are (which are essentially just another race with slightly different physical characteristics).

So? Knife-ears has long since grown beyond Dragon Age and it was never anything more then commentary on their ears. The slur is not dependent on the specifics of Elves in Dragon Age as you keep trying to argue. Middle Earth doesn't have to be a racialized world in order for insults to exist based on a characteristics of race. It is also strange that you think insults are not created for people you are envious of and that are "Better than you in pretty much every way".

Insults are created for any and all reason. Do you really think the world of Tolkien would not have that basic social dynamic? That no one would call a Dwarf beardless to rile them up? Or some other insult based on their culture or race? It is strange to claim that insults would never exist in the Tolkien world and everyone exists in peace, love, and harmony.

[Nerovar]

Insults are created for any and all reason. Do you really think the world of Tolkien would not have that basic social dynamic? That no one would call a Dwarf beardless to rile them up? Or some other insult based on their culture or race? It is strange to claim that insults would never exist in the Tolkien world and everyone exists in peace, love, and harmony.

Stop making shit up. I never said that "everyone exists in peace, love, and harmony". Also insult=/= slur. Try to engage with the argument.

It is also strange that you think insults are not created for people you are envious of and that are "Better than you in pretty much every way".

Name an example of a slur that works in that way please.

So? Knife-ears has long since grown beyond Dragon Age and it was never anything more then commentary on their ears. The slur is not dependent on the specifics of Elves in Dragon Age as you keep trying to argue. Middle Earth doesn't have to be a racialized world in order for insults to exist based on a characteristics of race.

Slurs only make sense in a societal context where the given characteristic (such as pointy ears) is already negatively connotated. It makes sense in the context of Dragon Age since most Elves exist below humans, are enslaved (in the case of Tevinter), live in slums, are out of touch with their own heritage and are generally excluded from the human power structures. Calling them "knife-ears" only works because it is a referance that reminds them of the low social standing and all the associated qualities (or lack thereof) tied to their race. Without this racial dimension it would be about as meaningless as calling someone "blue eyes".

None of that exists in Middle Earth so the term becomes a floating signifier.

[Varodoc]

Good Lord, the elves are so fucking ugly in this show. I was rewatching the Hobbit and Thranduil is so much hotter and more handsome than every single elf in this show, it's actually unbelievable how bad the casting for this show was.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Anyone who watched Arondir ludicrously flying through the air during the fight scene with Nipples the Chihuawarg and came away thinking "wow best episode" should probably have their head checked.

The Jackson movies destroyed any standards I would have had for grounded reasonable fight choreography, so going hard into the camp is fine with me I don’t really expect any thing else from the franchise at this point.

[Khaza-R]

The Jackson movies destroyed any standards I would have had for grounded reasonable fight choreography, so going hard into the camp is fine with me I don’t really expect any thing else from the franchise at this point.

I would agree the Jackson films trilogy some really goofy choregraphed fights concerning Legolas specifically. Of course they looked amazing when I was a teen and watched them in the theaters but they look a little silly now as an adult. But I think that's what one has to remember when watching this series. 30+ year old men are probably not the primary demo they are targeting and younger kids and adults probably thought that seen looked cool.

Overall the warg scene was okay. I'm more bothered by how ridiculous the CGI looked rather than Arondir turning into a twig assassin straight out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I would agree the Jackson films trilogy some really goofy choregraphed fights concerning Legolas specifically. Of course they looked amazing when I was a teen and watched them in the theaters but they look a little silly now as an adult. But I think that's what one has to remember when watching this series. 30+ year old men are probably not the primary demo they are targeting and younger kids and adults probably thought that seen looked cool.

Overall the warg scene was okay. I'm more bothered by how ridiculous the CGI looked rather than Arondir turning into a twig assassin straight out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

Ya the Jackson movies obviously played it up the silly fights for kids and teens and I doubt that tone will ever leave the franchise at this point as those movies are probably more commonly what people think of when LoTR is brought up instead of the books.

[rhorle]

Stop making shit up. I never said that "everyone exists in peace, love, and harmony". Also insult=/= slur. Try to engage with the argument.

A slur is an insult. I'm engaging with your argument but you keep changing why it doesn't work. First it was pointy ears yet we've established Elves have pointy ears. Then you said Tolkien didn't humanize the elves even though they are almost the same species. Then it was there are not racial tensions in Tolkien work to have slurs. Yet we know that isn't true because we've seen racial tensions shown.

The thing is though that Tolkien was trying to keep vulgarity out of his works. So he made things more poetic when they needed to have insults. That however doesn't mean that the culture and society function with out the vulgarity only that it wasn't important to his story and something he was trying to avoid to set his work apart from others of the time period.

A slur doesn't require pointy ears to be a negative connotation. It only requires that it could points out something "different" about the target. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs Most of the slurs on that list wouldn't work based on your narrow definition of a ethnic/racial slur. What makes it a slur is that it is calling out something only that group contains. Which is why ABC could be a "slur" to insult/demean American Born Chinese people.

It is laughable that you think a slur can only be a slur if the target "exist below" the one using the slur. Knife-ears in Dragon Age isn't even a reference to their heritage, social standing, or anything else. It is simply because their ears are pointed, like a knife, and it sets them apart. So calling that characteristic out and using it in a negative fashion makes it a slur. It is why groups in the real world have "reclaimed" words or terms to repurpose them from a slur.

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Overall the warg scene was okay. I'm more bothered by how ridiculous the CGI looked rather than Arondir turning into a twig assassin straight out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

I think it wasn't that bad but the "young" or "baby" warg look was definitely a problem. But I don't think the scene would have worked the same with a full grown adult warg as they seem like they would be to powerful to lose. Though it is possible these are "ancestors" so look slightly different.

[Nerovar]

I'm engaging with your argument but you keep changing why it doesn't work. First it was pointy ears yet we've established Elves have pointy ears. Then you said Tolkien didn't humanize the elves even though they are almost the same species. Then it was there are not racial tensions in Tolkien work to have slurs. Yet we know that isn't true because we've seen racial tensions shown.

Except you haven't demonstrated a single one of these things. "Knife-ears" specifically arose from the fact that later depictions of Elves had comically elongated ears due to flanderization which is simply not applicable to LotR elves. Tolkien uses a lot of descriptions to differentiate between Men and Elves (skin, eyes, hair, height) but ears are never mentioned while particularly beautiful Men could sometimes pass as Elves. Also you haven't given any example for "racial tensions" between Humans and Elves that would justify the existence of racial slur like that. It's also funny that you still think "humanised" just means that they look like humans.

The thing is though that Tolkien was trying to keep vulgarity out of his works. So he made things more poetic when they needed to have insults. That however doesn't mean that the culture and society function with out the vulgarity only that it wasn't important to his story and something he was trying to avoid to set his work apart from others of the time period.

So you agree that it has no place in his work then? Great.

A slut doesn't require pointy ears to a negative connotation. It only requires that it could be an insult to the target being used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs Most of the slurs on that list wouldn't work based on your narrow definition of a ethnic/racial slur. What makes it a slur is that it is calling out something only that group contains. Which is why ABC could be a "slur" to insult/demean American Born Chinese people.

Why do you think racial slurs exist? Why do you think certain slurs have "power" while others don't? What makes ABC a slur instead of being a mere descriptive term?

It is laughable that you think a slur can only be a slur if the target "exist below" the one using the slur. Knife-ears in Dragon Age isn't even a reference to their heritage, social standing, or anything else. It is simply because their ears are pointed, like a knife, and it sets them apart. So calling that characteristic out and using it in a negative fashion makes it a slur. It is why groups in the real world have "reclaimed" words or terms to repurpose them from a slur.

If the description "knife-ear" had nothing to do with their "heritage, social standing, or anything else" then why would it be perceived as an insult to begin with? It can only be perceived as such within the social context that gave rise to the slur. That's typically how slurs tend to work. It's not much of a slur if it isn't used to create/maintain some kind of power imbalance that can be used to justify the imagined inferiority of the other. Should be kind of obvious why this doesn't apply to Elves who are pretty much idealized versions of Men that surpass them in virtually every way.

[rhorle]

Except you haven't demonstrated a single one of these things. "Knife-ears" specifically arose from the fact that later depictions of Elves had comically elongated ears due to flanderization which is simply not applicable to LotR elves.

Knife ears was created by a game company to describe pointy ears. It spread because it is a good "clean" insult for elves who across fantasy have pointy ears of various length and shape. We've both established that Tolkien-elves have points even if they are more leaf shaped then long. So the insult can fit perfectly fine.

If the description "knife-ear" had nothing to do with their "heritage, social standing, or anything else" then why would it be perceived as an insult to begin with?

Wait. Do you honestly think that insults have to have a basis in heritage, social standing, or anything else of that nature? That it can't just exist as an insult because someone decided to say it? Did you even look over the list of ethnic slurs I provided? Because most of those became insults because X about Y was used by people in an insulting manner. Not all have some deeper meaning or requirement in order to be a slur/insult. There isn't a power balance required in a slur. Only an insulting one used to separate a group from others.

So you agree that it has no place in his work then? Great.

Knife-ears isn't vulgar. At least not much more then Jackson work where we had Stupid, Fat, short, go kill yourself (in more poetic words) etc. Of course the Jackson movies are not Tolkien work but they are well regarded and a "standard" most will have to compare current work with. And like I said Tolkien didn't shy away from insults or things they just usually were more poetic in nature. Seeing as how knife-ears isn't a real world slur it isn't vulgar or carry the connotations that Tolkien implied he wanted to avoid.

"Fool of a Took! Throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity!" (movie)
"I would cut off your head, Dwarf, if it stood but a little higher from the ground." (movie)
"Forty-two?! That's not bad for a pointy-eared Elvish princeling" (movie)
"Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs?" (book)
"Get thee gone from my gate, though jail-crow of Mandos!" (Book)

Some of these are from the films and some are from the book. It shows that Tolkien used insults that carried the same sentiments as "knife-ears". It shows that Jackson used them which cemented LotR in the modern age. So why is Amazon bad for using the same types of things just because a video game originated the term? A term that has since been used across many fantasy works as an insult.

[bledgor]

...

Mate Rhorle is a bad faith, just ignore him and keep talking to others.

[Xath]

Forever, lol, they've been around since the late 80s. That's in most of our lifetimes.

Sidney Poitier is probably the earliest example you can find of a black leading man, and he was one...in the 60s. Then cinema, seeing that black people loved Sidney Poitier, instead of incorporating them into mainstream Hollywood, spun off a whole industry of blaxploitation films, trying to keep black cinema "separate but equal (but not really ever equal as the name blaxploitation implies)" from Hollywood. Even major sitcoms were separated this way. It wasn't til the 80s that black actors started finding success mainstream. And it wasn't til The Cosby Show and Fresh Prince that white people really started watching shows compromised mainly of black actors.

This isn't some old, long-healed scar. This happened recently.

Most people on this forums are not in their 40s. Race bending doesn't fix issues it causes them. Create new stories or choose properties that already have the "minority(only in the US not worldwide)" you want to showcase. An example of terrible "diversity" is americanizing death note even netflix has admitted they fucked up and live action SAO will actually have asian actors cast. If a big budget live action King's Avatar ever happens it better have actors of Chinese descent. Seriously you are not in the right here. There is a reason these changes are primarily happening to works that the author is dead and can't object. You do not know better than the writer if you did you would be a many times over millionaire whose work was beloved by millions and neither do these rookie as hell showrunners who butcher worlds and works at will.

[Nerovar]

Knife ears was created by a game company to describe pointy ears. It spread because it is a good "clean" insult for elves who across fantasy have pointy ears of various length and shape. We've both established that Tolkien-elves have points even if they are more leaf shaped then long. So the insult can fit perfectly fine.



Wait. Do you honestly think that insults have to have a basis in heritage, social standing, or anything else of that nature? That it can't just exist as an insult because someone decided to say it? Did you even look over the list of ethnic slurs I provided? Because most of those became insults because X about Y was used by people in an insulting manner. Not all have some deeper meaning or requirement in order to be a slur/insult. There isn't a power balance required in a slur. Only an insulting one used to separate a group from others.



Knife-ears isn't vulgar. At least not much more then Jackson work where we had Stupid, Fat, short, go kill yourself (in more poetic words) etc. Of course the Jackson movies are not Tolkien work but they are well regarded and a "standard" most will have to compare current work with. And like I said Tolkien didn't shy away from insults or things they just usually were more poetic in nature. Seeing as how knife-ears isn't a real world slur it isn't vulgar or carry the connotations that Tolkien implied he wanted to avoid.

"Fool of a Took! Throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity!" (movie)
"I would cut off your head, Dwarf, if it stood but a little higher from the ground." (movie)
"Forty-two?! That's not bad for a pointy-eared Elvish princeling" (movie)
"Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs?" (book)
"Get thee gone from my gate, though jail-crow of Mandos!" (Book)

Some of these are from the films and some are from the book. It shows that Tolkien used insults that carried the same sentiments as "knife-ears". It shows that Jackson used them which cemented LotR in the modern age. So why is Amazon bad for using the same types of things just because a video game originated the term? A term that has since been used across many fantasy works as an insult.

Mate, if you won't bother replying to the actual content of my posts don't click on reply.

[Mace]

You say this like it’s some sort of great, novel, and “correct” idea apparently without realizing that it’s deeply rooted in racist ideology.

White humans and black humans aren’t different subspecies. Biologically speaking we’re all part of the same race. The only reason we have these sorts of racial divisions are because a bunch of people hundreds of years ago decided that skin tone was (among other things) a good indication of superiority/inferiority and the trickle down effect of that still reverberates to this day. Variance in hair color and eye color are no different in a biological sense than skin color, but I highly doubt you’d split a group of white people into different races based on either of those factors because you just haven’t been conditioned to view them the same way.

What you’re essentially saying is that skin color alone makes someone SO different that the only way they could even fit into a fantasy setting is if they’re a completely separate and segregated group. It doesn’t even matter if this fantasy setting doesn’t share our actual history, the only way it seems to make sense to you is if our history of human prejudice is applied to it.

We are talking about elves here, not humans.

Either way, my issue was with a random elf being dark skinned - where do they come from? every ethnicity we have in mixed socieites all come from somewhere where they are a homogenous group.

There is an origin of some sort, even if we don't exactly know for sure how humans came to be varied so.

You could take the extra step and give an explanation for elves - nothing wrong or racist about that, the assumption that all of a sudden elven populations could be mixed is not really LOTR or Tolkien canon, it's just basically reflecting Hollywood or 21st century americn diversity for the sake of diveristy in a a world that has it's own set of rules.

to me, introducing such major variations without doing it in a n excpetionally creative, thoughtful and well explained/detailed way that could feasible fit in the lore is an injustice and just draws more criticism rather than solves.

if the production was excellent all round, we wouldn't even care..we'd notice, but we'd consider it minor. Sadly, that isn't the case.

[Veggie50]

Not Adar...
They played too heavily into the Sauron look with the gauntlet and an actual elvish look to him.
Odd place for Sauron to be located at tbh. It just screams "DON'T LOOK AT HALBRAND, LOOK AT THIS GUY".

Halbrand seems like the safe pick. Talking about his bloodlines connection with Morgoth and then throw in how he is tainted from being of said line seems like such an easy "sympathy" card to gain trust. Which seemed to have worked with Galadriel.
Sauron needs to get to Lindon and have people trust him, Galadriel bringing him back and vouching for him is perfect for that.

However, what speaks against that is just how Galadriel is written so far. Her bringing Sauron to Lindon would be such an antithesis to how they try to portray her.
And if it isn't Sauron it feels like a red herring written for the audience sake more so than the story.

Of course 5 seasons to go... so it can be anyone at this point.

I think Halbrands meant to be an aragorn analogue (aragorn felt tainted aswell by his ancestors failure. In order to do better than his ancestors he’ll probably accept a nice shiny ring from a fella named anatar. After all, the nine were great kings of men.

I don’t think we’ve seen sauron, but I think hes a numenorean adviser to the king/queen.