1. #4461
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you are upset at something that hasn't yet occurred? The problem isn't the quality of the show but the nebulous "tolkien enough" that it has to meet. That standard changes based on the individual fan and what specific parts they want to take issue with or the parts they nitpick and make in to a bigger problem then they really are.

    Hence how you bring "white people and males" into this when white people and males are not threatened by any of the changes in the show and are not a standard for something to be called Tolkien.

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    Right. So knife ear works as an insult because there is a point. Your point B also includes Tolkien as he specifically made the differences between Elves and Humans to be low because he considered them to be the same species. It is strange to true and argue that there would be no racial slurs used in Tolkien's World or that the Elves were always universally well-liked.
    The show needed to be of the very highest quality all round to silence the critics.

    People are evidently fed up of the woke stuff, the problem here is when they changed Tolkien's work to reflect their ideals, - not actually a problem with diversity or inclusion.. RoP isn't that woke, not by a long shot, not like Wheel of Time which is ridiculously woke. if it's race you're concerned with, i mean, so far it was just 1 black elf and dwarf - shouldn't we be more curious about how they are there, rather than criticise or hate them for being their?

    so why do people have that reaction? Well watch the media /marketing campaign, and when the final product came out and it failed to impress.. well, all those other issues that people would have overlooked in a great production, now just add to misery.

    What were the biggest issues in the criticism of RoP so far- it certainly hasn't been the black elf/dwarf (in fact, all those haters, generalised and labelled as racist actually have loved those two characters the most) - wooden/manspreading and just unlikeable Galadriel taken out of character, excessive male (in particular white male) villainising, inconsistent plot, tone, and expectations that don't match that off Tolkien's stories or Jackson's adaptations - the expectations were high and it hasn't lived up to the standards people expect.

    As LotR tagged, the standard and bar is much higher, if this was a normal simple fantasy, it would probably have been received very well, aobove average despite the questionable things here and there, but having this title, it is put under the microscope with all it's flaws exposed. They really should have done better.

    I still watch it though and likely will, i take it for what it is, an alternate timeline of fantasy, I love the scenery and the music, quite liking the dwarves, especially Princess Desa, and the black elf too - but i it's not something i'm looking forward to or waiting to see first thing every Thursday or would get up to buy merchanndise and join fan conventions etc - not even close.

  2. #4462
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Mate, if you won't bother replying to the actual content of my posts don't click on reply.
    Don't deflect because you can't actually answer the argument being presented to you. If you want to bow out of the discussion then do so on your own terms. Don't be petty enough to put it on me when I keep engaging and you no longer want to. What about how the Rangers, and Strider, were looked down upon by at least parts of Bree? That is another example of "trait" based dislike in the LotR. Which once again shows that an insult about elves pointy ears fits with the general theme of the story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    The show needed to be of the very highest quality all round to silence the critics.
    The show would never silence the critics. It is laregly impossible to do that now a days and this show was being given low marks even before it was released. That alone further proves how impossible your statement is. There is very little "woke stuff" in the show and having different skin tones is hardly a change to Tolkien's work. Again nothing is changed about the actually work just because of skin color. You even say that Rings of Power isn't that woke yet you still invoke "wokeness" as a problem with the show. Strange, right? Almost as if you are hating just to hate with out an actual argument to back it up.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-11 at 09:37 PM.
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  3. #4463
    U guys discussing bout race and all that nonsense and you forget to mention the most obvious problem:
    The show, cgi, art, scenography, dialogues and acting is just so so so so bad, that it almost looks as aliexpressy as the wheel of time.
    Pure garbage.
    Thanks.

  4. #4464
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    The show needed to be of the very highest quality all round to silence the critics.

    People are evidently fed up of the woke stuff, the problem here is when they changed Tolkien's work to reflect their ideals, - not actually a problem with diversity or inclusion.. RoP isn't that woke, not by a long shot, not like Wheel of Time which is ridiculously woke. if it's race you're concerned with, i mean, so far it was just 1 black elf and dwarf - shouldn't we be more curious about how they are there, rather than criticise or hate them for being their?
    It was refreshing that they didn't hyper-focus on how they chose to have racial inclusion or women in main roles in this show. I think it worked decently.

    I got irked by the Brandyfoot sisters mother being dark skinned while they weren't, but looking into it apparently she is their stepmother. I must've missed where they mention that, but that explanation works for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hecpercu View Post
    U guys discussing bout race and all that nonsense and you forget to mention the most obvious problem:
    The show, cgi, art, scenography, dialogues and acting is just so so so so bad, that it almost looks as aliexpressy as the wheel of time.
    Pure garbage.
    Thanks.
    It's a streaming show. Even the best Disney streaming shows don'y hold a candle to movie production quality.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-11 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #4465
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's a streaming show. Even the best Disney streaming shows don'y hold a candle to movie production quality.
    I don't know about that. Did anyone ever watch GoT and think "wow this looks cheap"?

    And for the record, I don't think RoP looks cheap. Perhaps not the quality of ~90 million USD an episode, but definitely not cheap.

  6. #4466
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Don't deflect because you can't actually answer the argument being presented to you. If you want to bow out of the discussion then do so on your own terms. Don't be petty enough to put it on me when I keep engaging and you no longer want to.
    Yeah, maybe read more than a quarter of my posts instead of selectively quoting tangential points you're more comfortable engaging with and then I will write a response to your argument (even though I basically already adressed most of it which you would know if you read my posts). You also refused to answer even a single question I posed to you (both in the last post and the one before that) so it is pretty obvious that you're not willing to seriously engage with the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's a streaming show. Even the best Disney streaming shows don'y hold a candle to movie production quality.
    Hardly an excuse. House of the Dragon looks much better, has better dialogue, superior acting (and actors), costumes etc. while costing a fraction of Rings of Power.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  7. #4467
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I don't know about that. Did anyone ever watch GoT and think "wow this looks cheap"?

    And for the record, I don't think RoP looks cheap. Perhaps not the quality of ~90 million USD an episode, but definitely not cheap.
    Weirdly that's a big issue for me. Almost everything looks overdone beyond function. Things aren't looking cheap, a lot of it should probably look cheaper though.

    The quality of the VFX though. it's certainly not up to par with the money thrown at it. But that's another thing.
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  8. #4468
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The show would never silence the critics. It is laregly impossible to do that now a days and this show was being given low marks even before it was released. That alone further proves how impossible your statement is. There is very little "woke stuff" in the show and having different skin tones is hardly a change to Tolkien's work. Again nothing is changed about the actually work just because of skin color. You even say that Rings of Power isn't that woke yet you still invoke "wokeness" as a problem with the show. Strange, right? Almost as if you are hating just to hate with out an actual argument to back it up.
    You can't please everyone, but if it was of the exceptionally high quality that Jackson's movies were, then the nay sayers would be distinct minority.. compare it to woke House of Dragons, people seem to love that a lot more and care far less about racial changes, female masculinization and male denigration, which it has. But then despite all these things, it's staying true to what Game of Thrones is, and RoPs biggest criticism is that it isn't staying true to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings world it keeps associating itself with.

    Would that have mattered nearly as much if the production was top class and expertly done ? No, that's not to say it won't have mattered, but , it would have , to enough people, but no where near as much as it does now. They needed a top notch production all round, and this sadly isn't it. It's got some good things, but well - marketed all wrong, went heavy on less important things while going cheap on absolute fundamentals. This lies squarely on the production

  9. #4469
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah, maybe read more than a quarter of my posts instead of selectively quoting tangential points you're more comfortable engaging with and then I will write a response to your argument
    You continually are not writing a response to my arguments. You further deflect in saying it is my problem when this is entirely on your end. At least own up to you no longer wanting to engage. A person doesn't always have to word for word refute an argument in order to point out its failings. You've continually missed the mark on everything to do with the discussion and refuse to now engage on anything unless it accepts your words as undisputed facts. Strange, right?

    I've never refused to answer a single thing you've asked. You just haven't liked the answers you were given. Stop putting this on me when you are the only one refusing things here. Your last post didn't even include a question yet you still accuse me of not answering Lol. While you explain where the question was in that post maybe follow its advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Mate, if you won't bother replying to the actual content of my posts don't click on reply.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-11 at 10:08 PM.
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  10. #4470
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    There is a reason these changes are primarily happening to works that the author is dead and can't object.
    Hasn't this only happened like twice with LoTR and wheel of time? While we have also had, the Witcher, sandman, tons of marvel movies, Game of thrones/HoD, and likely a few more.

    The idea that they are targeting franchises with dead author's seems like a load of nonsense.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  11. #4471
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It was refreshing that they didn't hyper-focus on how they chose to have racial inclusion or women in main roles in this show. I think it worked decently.

    I got irked by the Brandyfoot sisters mother being dark skinned while they weren't, but looking into it apparently she is their stepmother. I must've missed where they mention that, but that explanation works for me.
    .
    Indeed, when a production is great, we usually don't care at all that women are focused on or racial inclusion - i mean we may be sick of how they are all doing it, but at the end of the day, omen can be great and there are other ethnicities around.

    it wasn't that woke either. Galadriel, like she is written and portrayed doesn't carry this show to the heights, i have heard it mentioned in circles that if we had a more charismatic actress or main cast, it could have been a different story - I'm not so sure, the way they wrote Galadriel is also a huge part of why this fails, but then a charismatic actor tends to change how characters are written, because they just bring an excellent version that is just impossible to turn away for a worse version in the original script. or they bring out the best bits.

    I did not like Galadriel being picked on by the other children elves in the beginning - that felt very un elf like - and i often wonder if there was more to the scene than to set her up as an angry man longing to prove herself -a s if she's some human twenty something year old, instead of part of a race of very wise and immortal beings that would certainly have very different and far better standards. Whiles you could say elves could be have like that, it doesn't fit the race, but it's there to set up this female character's motivations and it's just all wrong - that's not the Noldor high elves, nor Galadriel as Tolkien would present them.

    But then I saw the same in wow, and use to praise tolkien's LotR for how you correctly portray immortal wise beings - these writers seem to simply forget they made them another race that is immortal and extremely wise, - why not exemplify that in your early example - because they have to set Galadriel as angry man-woman - and it just doesn't work..

  12. #4472
    So far in this series there have been numerous egregious changes to the lore and those changes aren't really adding up to anything compelling. And really most of this series is nothing but made up characters, invented by Amazon, surrounded by a bunch of weird mysteries and no singular main plot or story. So it is all over the place in that sense and none of those story lines in and of themselves are really important to the big picture which should be obvious by 3 episodes in. And this is where people begin to jump ship because it becomes tedious and uninteresting to follow these separate narratives that aren't leading to anything that anybody cares about in Tolkien or are interesting in their own right.

    1. Where is Sauron
    2. Who is Meteor Man
    3. Who is Halbrand
    4. What is this mark Galadriel found
    5. What is in the dwarven box
    6. Who is Theo's father
    7. Where is Tar Palantir and why is he in exile
    8. Who are the faithful
    9. What is the sword handed to Elendil
    10. Who is Adar
    11. Who are the 3 mysterious people
    12. What is this constellation shown by meteor man
    13. Why are the Elves and Numenor not on good terms
    14. and so on


    And this show just keeps adding more questions and not answering any of them.

  13. #4473
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And this show just keeps adding more questions and not answering any of them.
    Realistically how many shows answer all of those questions in the first 3 episodes?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  14. #4474
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Can we get a thread for people who actually want to discuss the show without a bunch of people getting offended about their head canon?

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  15. #4475
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post


    And this show just keeps adding more questions and not answering any of them.
    ...it's 3 episodes into a 9 episode season. You're essentially whining that you don't have all the answers by the end of the first act in a three-act movie. That's absolutely ridiculous.

    Nevermind any setting up they to for potential future seasons.

  16. #4476
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Realistically how many shows answer all of those questions in the first 3 episodes?
    No other show is this show so the question doesn't make sense.

  17. #4477
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    ...it's 3 episodes into a 9 episode season. You're essentially whining that you don't have all the answers by the end of the first act in a three-act movie. That's absolutely ridiculous.

    Nevermind any setting up they to for potential future seasons.
    *8 episodes. If rumors are to be believed we won't get many answers this seasons sadly, not even any of the big events.
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  18. #4478
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    No other show is this show so the question doesn't make sense.
    There are unanswered questions from Lost and it had 6 seasons. Shows don't always reveal everything in the first 3 episodes in or in the episode that the question is first raised in. It will blow your mind to learn of the term "Cliff Hanger".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #4479
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    ...it's 3 episodes into a 9 episode season. You're essentially whining that you don't have all the answers by the end of the first act in a three-act movie. That's absolutely ridiculous.

    Nevermind any setting up they to for potential future seasons.
    This story isn't that complex. These meandering side stories and mysteries are not building some kind of interesting or compelling story at least for me. Some people may care but I really don't because the show hasn't given me a reason to. And this has absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien vs just basic story telling.

    For example, there should be no mystery at this point that Sauron is present. Sylvan elves have been captured and killed. Other Sylvan elves should be aware of this. Adar should not be a mystery to any elf as such a thing would be well known among the elves that one of their own sided with Sauron openly and not due to deception. The purpose and reason for the meteor man should be obvious by now because these Maiar are basically like angels and can talk. No reason why we shouldn't know who he is and what he is doing by now. So a lot of this just becomes filler and distracts from the ultimate point which is the confrontation with Sauron. Not to mention nobody else mentions this meteor even though many of the main characters saw it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There are unanswered questions from Lost and it had 6 seasons. Shows don't always reveal everything in the first 3 episodes in or in the episode that the question is first raised in. It will blow your mind to learn of the term "Cliff Hanger".
    Lost was designed to be a story that had a long series of unfolding questions. It was relatively unique. Most television series are not written like that. Episodic TV definitely doesn't do that as each episode resolves any questions or mysteries before it ends.

    This show is called Rings of Power. It is supposed to be telling us about how the rings of power got created by Sauron. There isn't any real mystery to that as everyone knows the story if they have seen Lord of the Rings or read the LOTR books. Technically that is a single story line unto itself and could fill multiple seasons without all this other stuff.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-11 at 10:48 PM.

  20. #4480
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There are unanswered questions from Lost and it had 6 seasons. Shows don't always reveal everything in the first 3 episodes in or in the episode that the question is first raised in. It will blow your mind to learn of the term "Cliff Hanger".
    Your words make sense, but don't you think it is a very nifty trick for both defenders and showrunners to refute all the critique?
    Take the Halo series for example: its chockfull of so-called cliffhangers.
    Does it mean we should patiently wait for s2, or does it mean the plot was utter garbage and the scriptwriter was an incompetent senile potato?

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