Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

his Poppy character is the thinly veiled attempt to copy sean astins portrayal of samwise gamgee, as i stated above this is her tokenism moment, this is why her character exists, to make it seem familiar to older viewers while offering new viewers a similar first time experience that those of us had watching the PJ trilogy had, again you're either being obtuse and feigning ignorance or you're deluded to believe this isn't the case, either way not good for you.

That isn't what "agenda" means. Having a side kick character isn't something that is bad or pushing an agenda. I'm not sure what answer I expected but it certainly wasn't that a character having friends is bad lmao. Also wouldn't it be a throwback to the OG and not Jackson?

[Fuiking]

Most of it is vague, and summaries after the fact.

We don't know much about the Nine. The Witch-King of Angmar is the only one mentioned by name in LotR, and his lieutenant Khamûl the Black Easterling is mentioned in the Unfinished Tales. We also know three of the Nine are "great lords of the Númenorean race", though that's ambiguous because Númenor had colonies in various parts, possibly including Angmar - so the Witch-King may be counted among those.

How the show deals with this we have no idea. It's possible they're preparing Númenoreans we've seen to end up as part of the Nine; maybe Pharazôn, maybe Míriel, maybe both, who knows. Maybe Halbrand really is a Southlander king and will get a ring. Maybe we'll never see them all.

Since they're rolling most of the events of the Second Age (and possibly some of the Third Age) into a very short time span, all bets are off. They'll have to get creative to arrive where we know things are eventually headed: 3-7-9+1 forged and distributed, and an eventual showdown in Mordor. It's unlikely they can/will change characters like Isildur to be anything other than what they are in the setup for LotR (so no making him one of the Nine or whatever) but most of the undefined stuff is likely to get changed. A LOT.

Angmar was never a Numenorean Colony. closest colony was the area around Lake Nenuial (its hinted at) or either Lond Dear. The next colonies were further south, Pelargir, the Land of the Princes (belfalas), and further south still, Umbar.

[bledgor]

i have already explained every single instance above, you are either being obtuse demanding something specific, or you're ignorant and don't want to read what was written, to spell it out for you as clearly as i possibly can:

this Poppy character is the thinly veiled attempt to copy sean astins portrayal of samwise gamgee, as i stated above this is her tokenism moment, this is why her character exists, to make it seem familiar to older viewers while offering new viewers a similar first time experience that those of us had watching the PJ trilogy had, again you're either being obtuse and feigning ignorance or you're deluded to believe this isn't the case, either way not good for you.

Half the show is trying to reference things from the LoTR. The characters are pretty obvious (female Frodo and Sam, Halbrand is a "King" who was deprived of his Kingdom aka Aragorn, you have Arondri/Legolas, meteor man/wizard/Gandalf, and Gimli in Durin IV/elf friend, just missing 2 Harfoots and Boromir to pick up the whole gang), but there are a few less obvious ones. The shape of the capital of Numenor has the protruding white spine like Minas Tirith (I get that it was constructed by the same people, but the exact same shape is 100% to get people thinking of Minas Tirith), the line about not kneeling by Mirial made me think of Return of the King and Aragorns line to the hobbits, the Elven Fireworks was a callback to Gandalf (I mean really why would Elfs have fireworks, very much a wizard thing), the Elven leader of Arondir getting shot by two orc arrows mirrored Boromirs death, and I'm sure a lot more references back to the trilogy that I missed/didn't write.

You can tell they wanted to get as many ways to connect to the movies through easter eggs while avoiding doing things in the characters/plot that connected like any normal person would. *sigh*

[Fuiking]

I must have missed the Tolkien lore with the psychotic Hobbits in it. They sing songs and have a ritual about the fallen they have had (pretty pagen, which is very much not Tolkien, same with the Numenorean praying to the sea), the fallen being people that they leave behind for any which reason, be it being assaulted by bees to death (have a laugh at it like the Harfoots did), someone falling into the snow, or with female Frodos family because a man broke his ankle.


Oh and a weird joke about doing "activities" at night, and how other Hobbits with be watching? Really fucking weird and fucked up shit.

They actually did pray / reqeust protection from Ulmo though.. Oloresse first, but after the eagle of manwe on the prow of there ships.

[bledgor]

They actually did pray / reqeust protection from Ulmo though.. Oloresse first, but after the eagle of manwe on the prow of there ships.

Must have missed that line, the show is hard to stay focused on honestly. Surprised they would considering they have been avoiding dropping the name Eru Iluvatar (couple of lines mentioning fate/the will of a greater being but none of the cannon god yet, quite possibly a rights thing but alas, if you don't have the rights to all this shit maybe don't try to make a show about it).

[rhorle]

The shape of the capital of Numenor has the protruding white spine like Minas Tirith (I get that it was constructed by the same people, but the exact same shape is 100% to get people thinking of Minas Tirith)

Minas Tirith has a waterfall? I think this is a good example of what is nitpicked just for the sake of it when it isn't really a problem. As you say it is built by the same people. It would be like complaining that Roman stuff resembles some Greek stuff. It isn't a problem even if it is a deliberate choice to call back to Minas Tirith since you know the connection between the two is valid in the Lore. Things don't have to be different just for the sake of differences.

[rogoth]

That isn't what "agenda" means. Having a side kick character isn't something that is bad or pushing an agenda. I'm not sure what answer I expected but it certainly wasn't that a character having friends is bad lmao. Also wouldn't it be a throwback to the OG and not Jackson?

ah, so you're being purposefully obtuse and feigning ignorance, got it, message received loud and clear there boss.

their agenda, as i have stated now to you directly twice, to others numbers times, is TOKENISM, every character is there to be a TOKEN representing something else because the showrunners and writers are incapable of producing their own unique story/ideas, instead they are hitchhiking off the coat tails of what came before and it's so thinly veiled it's a joke, you can use whatever pathetic strawman you want to try and defend this dross, but do us all a favour and stop posting such utter tripe trying to shore up this amateur production.

do a poll of 1,000,000 people, and i guarantee you if you asked 'when did you first see samwise gamgee on screen' 95% would respond with the PJ film the fellowship of the ring, meaning that Amazon is purposefully aiming every single action characters take, every single mannerism and character trait as a mirror to another already established and existing character in a pathetic and embarrassing attempt to gain favour with people who are only familiar with the PJ movies, once again having to explain this to you speaks absolute volumes, and exposes what i stated previously, you have little to no knowledge of the material at hand meaning that you offer little to nothing to the conversation other than sad little attempts at distracting from the point and being a general annoyance doing it.

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Minas Tirith has a waterfall? I think this is a good example of what is nitpicked just for the sake of it when it isn't really a problem. As you say it is built by the same people. It would be like complaining that Roman stuff resembles some Greek stuff. It isn't a problem even if it is a deliberate choice to call back to Minas Tirith since you know the connection between the two is valid in the Lore. Things don't have to be different just for the sake of differences.

yes, made up of melted ice water from the mountain tops, but it's the levels of gushing volumes of water shown in this dumpster fire, again showing you have no concept of what it is that you're trying to argue about, but please, don't let that stop you from continuing this asinine crusade you're on.

[rhorle]

their agenda, as i have stated now to you directly twice, to others numbers times, is TOKENISM

A character having a friend is not a symbol of Tokenism. Lmao. It is crazy how hard you are going on "Friends are bad". Also of course most people would say the Jackson films were the first time they say Samwise on flim. It was the most popular film adaptation of the Lord of the Rings so of course it would have the most first time engagement.

It still doesn't change that a character having a friend, in future works, is bad.

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yes, made up of melted ice water from the mountain tops, but it's the levels of gushing volumes of water shown in this dumpster fire, again showing you have no concept of what it is that you're trying to argue about, but please, don't let that stop you from continuing this asinine crusade you're on.

Weird as I don't think Minas Tirith has ever been shown to have a waterfall "on its point" in any of the video games or previous films.

[bledgor]

...

Mate you gotta stop feeding rhorle, he isn't here for honest conversation.

[Biomega]

Angmar was never a Numenorean Colony. closest colony was the area around Lake Nenuial (its hinted at) or either Lond Dear. The next colonies were further south, Pelargir, the Land of the Princes (belfalas), and further south still, Umbar.

We don't know for sure. We do know that Tolkien wrote in some supplementary notes that "the name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably of Númenorean descent" and I do believe he is at least hinted at (if not outright stated) to be the founder of Angmar. Which would technically make it if not an 'official' colony then at least a descendant of Númenor.

[rogoth]

A character having a friend is not a symbol of Tokenism. Lmao. It is crazy how hard you are going on "Friends are bad". Also of course most people would say the Jackson films were the first time they say Samwise on flim. It was the most popular film adaptation of the Lord of the Rings so of course it would have the most first time engagement.

It still doesn't change that a character having a friend, in future works, is bad.

where did i say it was?, you're the only one who has inferred this, you're the only one who is banging on about this because you're incapable of seeing the point being made despite it being made abundantly clear to you:

it's not the what that's the issue, it's the how, and once again having to explain this to you is showing me and everyone else that all you're doing is putting up strawmen arguements to distract and derail the conversation because you want to defend this steaming pile of garbage.

i couldn't care less if these 2 character were lesbian lovers, in fact i bet there's a version of the script somewhere that states they are because it helps Amazon tick off yet more minority quota bullshit, but i digress, the issue is that they are both written to be parody of frodo/sam, every single interaction they have you could layer over the top of frodo and sam from the LOTR saga and it's so similar it's uncanny, they have similar personal traits, they have nigh on identical interpersonal relationships with those around them, if that isn't TOKENISM at its finest then i don't know what is, they could have written them to be any way whatsoever and the writers/showrunners decided to write them in the exact same manner as frodo/sam, that's not only telling of the creative bankruptcy of these amateur cunts scamming a living by way of plagiarism but it speaks to the fact that Amazon and those above them gave the green light for such behaviour and material, but i guess you don't care about all that at all right?

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A character having a friend is not a symbol of Tokenism. Lmao. It is crazy how hard you are going on "Friends are bad". Also of course most people would say the Jackson films were the first time they say Samwise on flim. It was the most popular film adaptation of the Lord of the Rings so of course it would have the most first time engagement.

It still doesn't change that a character having a friend, in future works, is bad.

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Weird as I don't think Minas Tirith has ever been shown to have a waterfall "on its point" in any of the video games or previous films.

that's not what you asked, stop moving goalposts you're just making it worse for yourself.

[rhorle]

where did i say it was?,

Your entire argument is that Poppy being a friend for Nori is tokenism because Sam was a friend to Frodo. Holy crap it is crazy that you deny your own argument. I'm not even sure why you are bringing lesbianism into this now. Or why a woman having a friend equal lesbian. It is crazy how much hate you are displaying over simple basic things.

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that's not what you asked, stop moving goalposts you're just making it worse for yourself.

It is. Lmao

but the exact same shape is 100% to get people thinking of Minas Tirith)

Minas Tirith has a waterfall?

[s_bushido]

yes, made up of melted ice water from the mountain tops, but it's the levels of gushing volumes of water shown in this dumpster fire, again showing you have no concept of what it is that you're trying to argue about, but please, don't let that stop you from continuing this asinine crusade you're on.

There is no waterfall in the Weta version of Minas Tirith. It would be kind of hard for them to have put one there, given that the "prow" of the mountain is right over the entrance to the city.

But I do enjoy that now something as innocuous as a waterfall is the newest atrocity to spark your impotent rage against literally every aspect of the show.

Numenor is gorgeous. I'm pretty confident in saying that anyone arguing otherwise is just stroking an irrational hate-boner.

[Adamas102]

We are talking about elves here, not humans.

Either way, my issue was with a random elf being dark skinned - where do they come from? every ethnicity we have in mixed socieites all come from somewhere where they are a homogenous group.

There is an origin of some sort, even if we don't exactly know for sure how humans came to be varied so.

You could take the extra step and give an explanation for elves - nothing wrong or racist about that, the assumption that all of a sudden elven populations could be mixed is not really LOTR or Tolkien canon, it's just basically reflecting Hollywood or 21st century americn diversity for the sake of diveristy in a a world that has it's own set of rules.

to me, introducing such major variations without doing it in a n excpetionally creative, thoughtful and well explained/detailed way that could feasible fit in the lore is an injustice and just draws more criticism rather than solves.

Yes, we’re talking about elves (and dwarves, and hobbits, and even Middle-earth humans) but the issue is that you’re applying human ethnic divisiveness to these fictional races where it need not belong.

We do know how humans came to be so varied, and the idea that ethnic isolation and group homogeny is a natural and historically accurate way for populations to evolve (which must in turn be applied to fantasy races) is simply an ignorance on your part on the subject of human evolution and history.

If you were to travel back in time 10,000 years and traverse the European continent you’d find a large variety of skin tones as the mutation that primarily contributes to European white skin was still making its way across the continent. You’d find some tribes and villages where the mutation had fully diffused and most of the population was light skinned, others with mixed skin tones where the mutation was introduced but not fully expressed in all individuals, and even some villages where the mutation hadn’t yet reached and the peoples would still be dark skinned. If you then stuck around for a few thousand years, you’d also see the continued migrations of people from Africa, the Fertile Crescent, and the Near East into Europe, bringing with them things like the domesticated pig, cattle, and horse that helped spur on the Neolithic agricultural revolution. Multiethnic populations existed through ancient Egypt as well as the Greek and Roman civilizations of antiquity. Trade routes that connected Africa and Eurasia existed 1,000 years before the Middle Ages.

You need only look at isolated jungle tribes today to see what might have become of the human race if not for the large amount of migrating, mixing, and mingling that occurred from the Neolithic age and beyond. As civilizations evolved people certainly found more and more ways to divide and isolate each other (wealth, religion, culture, nationalism, etc), but race as a means of dividing people by physical traits only popped up as a concept about 400 years ago.

The idea that populations should be segregated based on skin color is a fairly modern thing. The reason I bring all of this up is because you (and a number of other posters) seem to think that this mentality should be applied to any fictional race that can exhibit human eye, hair, and skin coloration. The idea that different skin colors necessitate cultural division and cannot simply coexist with each other is based purely on racialist conditioning and an overly simplistic view of human history.

You ask how an elf can “randomly be dark skinned”? European white skin was a spontaneous mutation which then took several thousand years with hundreds of generations of traveling and intermixing to become a predominate trait across a continent. The same goes for all variations in hair and eye color (mutations that spread through population mixing). You’re also assuming Arondir is unique in his skin color, but until we’ve met every elf in Middle-earth there’s no reason to make that assumption. It might be a rare trait, but without all the racialist baggage of our modern world there’s no reason why he or any other elf with a similar skin tone would be treated differently. They’re simply elves and that’s it, the way we’re all simply humans regardless of skin color. If anything, the idea that populations should be segregated and isolated based on skin color is a relatively modern idea.

[rogoth]

Your entire argument is that Poppy being a friend for Nori is tokenism because Sam was a friend to Frodo. Holy crap it is crazy that you deny your own argument. I'm not even sure why you are bringing lesbianism into this now. Or why a woman having a friend equal lesbian. It is crazy how much hate you are displaying over simple basic things.

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It is. Lmao

no, it's not, and not only have i said that now multiple times explaining it to you in myriad ways which you still seem to fail to understand, as of writing this, you're currently the only person who has said this, you incorrectly interpreted what i said (on multiple occasions), and came to the wrong conclusion, then started putting words in my mouth by way of your very weak and pathetic strawman arguement that you keep harping on despite the fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with the point being made, at this point all you're doing is arguing with yourself, it's disconcerting really.

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There is no waterfall in the Weta version of Minas Tirith. It would be kind of hard for them to have put one there, given that the "prow" of the mountain is right over the entrance to the city.

But I do enjoy that now something as innocuous as a waterfall is the newest atrocity to spark your impotent rage against literally every aspect of the show.

Numenor is gorgeous. I'm pretty confident in saying that anyone arguing otherwise is just stroking an irrational hate-boner.

where did i say it wasn't?, please quote me where i stated anything resembling that or insinuating that, and don't worry, i'm happy to wait, as i stated above and have done with all the promotional material beforehand, it looks very nice indeed, i said however the whole package is a mess and makes no fucking sense in any way, why are you conflating things?, are you just desperate to try to poke holes in something that doesn't exist to score 'internet points' or something?

i answered an asinine question to point out that the person asking said question was exhibiting zero fucking knowledge of source material, and was making yet another strawman arguement for the sake of getting a rise out of the person they were engaging with, as an aside, the Dol Amroth Cavalry unit known as the swan knights, the best cavalry unit in all of middle earth weren't in any of the PJ films, doe that mean they didn't exist also?, just trying to understand your logic processes here.

[rhorle]

no, it's not,

this Poppy character is the thinly veiled attempt to copy sean astins portrayal of samwise gamgee, as i stated above this is her tokenism moment, this is why her character exists, to make it seem familiar to older viewers while offering new viewers a similar first time experience that those of us had watching the PJ trilogy had

So which is it? How did I put words in your mouth? Did I hack your account and make the post for you? Lmao.

[rogoth]

So which is it? How did I put words in your mouth? Did I hack your account and make the post for you? Lmao.

i suggest using the google search engine to find the definition of the phrase, then ask your parents/guardians to explain it to you, because you clearly don't understand it at all.


and as a final note, let me highlight for you the keyword you should have used because you're clearly incapable of identifying it for yourself, are you ready?, here it comes, it's a big one:

PORTRAYAL

that's the one you should have bolded, once again you're showing your inability to read, comprehend what's written, and respond properly to the material therein.

if you're going to continue with this banal and asinine bullshit, at least make it interesting, because you're doing yourself and your nation no favours by living the stereotype.

[Dhrizzle]

I did not like Galadriel being picked on by the other children elves in the beginning - that felt very un elf like - and i often wonder if there was more to the scene than to set her up as an angry man longing to prove herself.

The red-headed Elf child suggests they are sons of Fëanor and them attacking the boat is an allusion to the First Kinslaying.

-a s if she's some human twenty something year old, instead of part of a race of very wise and immortal beings that would certainly have very different and far better standards. Whiles you could say elves could be have like that, it doesn't fit the race, but it's there to set up this female character's motivations and it's just all wrong - that's not the Noldor high elves, nor Galadriel as Tolkien would present them.

You really should read about some of the bullshit the Noldor got up to.

[Sialina]

where did i say it was?, you're the only one who has inferred this, you're the only one who is banging on about this because you're incapable of seeing the point being made despite it being made abundantly clear to you:

it's not the what that's the issue, it's the how, and once again having to explain this to you is showing me and everyone else that all you're doing is putting up strawmen arguements to distract and derail the conversation because you want to defend this steaming pile of garbage.

i couldn't care less if these 2 character were lesbian lovers, in fact i bet there's a version of the script somewhere that states they are because it helps Amazon tick off yet more minority quota bullshit, but i digress, the issue is that they are both written to be parody of frodo/sam, every single interaction they have you could layer over the top of frodo and sam from the LOTR saga and it's so similar it's uncanny, they have similar personal traits, they have nigh on identical interpersonal relationships with those around them, if that isn't TOKENISM at its finest then i don't know what is, they could have written them to be any way whatsoever and the writers/showrunners decided to write them in the exact same manner as frodo/sam, that's not only telling of the creative bankruptcy of these amateur cunts scamming a living by way of plagiarism but it speaks to the fact that Amazon and those above them gave the green light for such behaviour and material, but i guess you don't care about all that at all right?

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that's not what you asked, stop moving goalposts you're just making it worse for yourself.

It's been fun reading page after page after page of rhorle losing every argument and still staying faithful to his opinion. Didn't know it was possible to be proven so wrong so many times and still believe you were right.

Episode 3 was really boring, but my main complaint right now is the terrible dialogue and some of the fighting is just terrible. The hobbit movies were bad, this is getting progressively worse. The original trilogy is so far beyond this that it's not even funny. when I saw it 20 years ago as a little girl I thought woooooow, imagine how amazing things will be in 10, 20 or 30 years! I never imagined it would be way worse.

[Biomega]

when I saw it 20 years ago as a little girl I thought woooooow, imagine how amazing things will be in 10, 20 or 30 years! I never imagined it would be way worse.

It's our fault.

We as consumers have consistently been rewarding spectacle over substance and sophistication. It's really not that surprising they'd try and cater to that apparent preference.

Stop rewarding them for things we don't actually like, I guess. What more can we do, really.