1. #4501
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    is this meant to go all the way upto the start or end of the second war?
    Early on Amazon stated the show is planned out to end with Isildur having his finger cut off or basically the end of Second Age and start of the Third age. With the time line compressed it is hard to say what they will cover exactly.
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  2. #4502
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    is this meant to go all the way upto the start or end of the second war? It would be interesting to follow it and see how various things happened. the last episode basically showed the beginning of the southlands becoming mordor. are we going to see how sauron corrupted so many kings and leaders with the rings of power? there is a lot that happened between the first and second wars but I don't think Tolkien actually wrote a fully cohesive storyline at least not in the same way that the hobbit and LotR is written. from what I understand is that the silmarillion is just short stories that are somewhat related to one another but its not one cohesive story line.
    Most of it is vague, and summaries after the fact.

    We don't know much about the Nine. The Witch-King of Angmar is the only one mentioned by name in LotR, and his lieutenant Khamûl the Black Easterling is mentioned in the Unfinished Tales. We also know three of the Nine are "great lords of the Númenorean race", though that's ambiguous because Númenor had colonies in various parts, possibly including Angmar - so the Witch-King may be counted among those.

    How the show deals with this we have no idea. It's possible they're preparing Númenoreans we've seen to end up as part of the Nine; maybe Pharazôn, maybe Míriel, maybe both, who knows. Maybe Halbrand really is a Southlander king and will get a ring. Maybe we'll never see them all.

    Since they're rolling most of the events of the Second Age (and possibly some of the Third Age) into a very short time span, all bets are off. They'll have to get creative to arrive where we know things are eventually headed: 3-7-9+1 forged and distributed, and an eventual showdown in Mordor. It's unlikely they can/will change characters like Isildur to be anything other than what they are in the setup for LotR (so no making him one of the Nine or whatever) but most of the undefined stuff is likely to get changed. A LOT.

  3. #4503
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    No this stems from you trying to defend mystery box story telling to support the nonsense mysteries and story lines I listed and now backtracking. Otherwise, why introduce Lost into the discussion unless you are defending the nonsense writing?
    I introduced lost because you specifically said no other show is as slow to answer questions. So Lost leaving questions unanswered after 6 seasons clearly shows you were wrong and that it is fine for RoP to have questions unanswered after 3 episodes. If you don't like Lost what about The Mandalorian? It took a full season to answer what Din looks like and some question left unanswered. Season 2 answered some but not all. Isn't that slower then 3 episodes?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Realistically how many shows answer all of those questions in the first 3 episodes?
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    No other show is this show so the question doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-12 at 02:59 AM.
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  4. #4504
    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    I know its a nit-pick but Arwen is a half-elf not an elf.
    I always wondered if there was a breaking point for Tolkien when half-elves stop being.... half elves. Elrond is probably about 3/5-4/5 elf. I can't remember if it's his mother's or father's side, but one is almost completely mixed. Speaking of Arwen though, she is likely at least 7/8 elf, and that 1/8 man is straight up Edain, which are as close to mortal elves (angelic men) as Tolkien will give you.
    I don't know why but the half-elven moniker kind of always struck me wrong, just because the connotation is half man and "Man" doesn't even really exist on Middle Earth until about mid second age. The Edain were ascendant beings compared to man, they were already taller, stronger, wiser, and longer lived than what man actually became and this was before they were granted the blessing and became numernorians.

  5. #4505
    I must have missed the Tolkien lore with the psychotic Hobbits in it. They sing songs and have a ritual about the fallen they have had (pretty pagen, which is very much not Tolkien, same with the Numenorean praying to the sea), the fallen being people that they leave behind for any which reason, be it being assaulted by bees to death (have a laugh at it like the Harfoots did), someone falling into the snow, or with female Frodos family because a man broke his ankle.

    Oh and a weird joke about doing "activities" at night, and how other Hobbits with be watching? Really fucking weird and fucked up shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
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  6. #4506
    they are obviously proto-hobbits, they seem heavily inspired by gypsies hell they are even Irish. my guess is that their story is going to culminate in them settling in the shire? seems like thats a possibility.

    I think it would be cool if the show did cover the falls of some of these kingdoms, just basically fill in the story from the second age and how it got to that point tie it into the beginning of the films. i'm not so great with middle earths time periods, I know shadow of mordor covered some of the end of the second age. I think it showed the fall of mithas ithil / minas morgul in that maybe as a cutscene or something which was attacked by the 9 wraiths it was one part of the story that wasn't shown in the movies, I didn't play those games that much, I liked hearing bits of lore from celebrimbor's wraith but I didn't play them very much. some ppl love assassin creed type games, I burn out on them kinda quickly. there was a lot of exposition in those games about the end of the second war and the rings. the time spans are difficult to get your head around, I remember elrond specifically saying that the 2nd war was 3k years ago in LOTR, thats a lot of time for basically nothing to happen. key important events might only be taking place like once or twice a decade. it seems like it could easily skip a century here or there without much really changing.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2022-09-12 at 03:38 AM.

  7. #4507
    Pit Lord rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There have already been examples where they have not contradicted source material. I'm still waiting to hear what agenda they are pushing with Poppy. All you do is rant and rave about absolutes that aren't even true or about who skin tone matters to the Tolkien world.
    i have already explained every single instance above, you are either being obtuse demanding something specific, or you're ignorant and don't want to read what was written, to spell it out for you as clearly as i possibly can:

    this Poppy character is the thinly veiled attempt to copy sean astins portrayal of samwise gamgee, as i stated above this is her tokenism moment, this is why her character exists, to make it seem familiar to older viewers while offering new viewers a similar first time experience that those of us had watching the PJ trilogy had, again you're either being obtuse and feigning ignorance or you're deluded to believe this isn't the case, either way not good for you.

  8. #4508
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    his Poppy character is the thinly veiled attempt to copy sean astins portrayal of samwise gamgee, as i stated above this is her tokenism moment, this is why her character exists, to make it seem familiar to older viewers while offering new viewers a similar first time experience that those of us had watching the PJ trilogy had, again you're either being obtuse and feigning ignorance or you're deluded to believe this isn't the case, either way not good for you.
    That isn't what "agenda" means. Having a side kick character isn't something that is bad or pushing an agenda. I'm not sure what answer I expected but it certainly wasn't that a character having friends is bad lmao. Also wouldn't it be a throwback to the OG and not Jackson?
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-12 at 03:37 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #4509
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Most of it is vague, and summaries after the fact.

    We don't know much about the Nine. The Witch-King of Angmar is the only one mentioned by name in LotR, and his lieutenant Khamûl the Black Easterling is mentioned in the Unfinished Tales. We also know three of the Nine are "great lords of the Númenorean race", though that's ambiguous because Númenor had colonies in various parts, possibly including Angmar - so the Witch-King may be counted among those.

    How the show deals with this we have no idea. It's possible they're preparing Númenoreans we've seen to end up as part of the Nine; maybe Pharazôn, maybe Míriel, maybe both, who knows. Maybe Halbrand really is a Southlander king and will get a ring. Maybe we'll never see them all.

    Since they're rolling most of the events of the Second Age (and possibly some of the Third Age) into a very short time span, all bets are off. They'll have to get creative to arrive where we know things are eventually headed: 3-7-9+1 forged and distributed, and an eventual showdown in Mordor. It's unlikely they can/will change characters like Isildur to be anything other than what they are in the setup for LotR (so no making him one of the Nine or whatever) but most of the undefined stuff is likely to get changed. A LOT.
    Angmar was never a Numenorean Colony. closest colony was the area around Lake Nenuial (its hinted at) or either Lond Dear. The next colonies were further south, Pelargir, the Land of the Princes (belfalas), and further south still, Umbar.

  10. #4510
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i have already explained every single instance above, you are either being obtuse demanding something specific, or you're ignorant and don't want to read what was written, to spell it out for you as clearly as i possibly can:

    this Poppy character is the thinly veiled attempt to copy sean astins portrayal of samwise gamgee, as i stated above this is her tokenism moment, this is why her character exists, to make it seem familiar to older viewers while offering new viewers a similar first time experience that those of us had watching the PJ trilogy had, again you're either being obtuse and feigning ignorance or you're deluded to believe this isn't the case, either way not good for you.
    Half the show is trying to reference things from the LoTR. The characters are pretty obvious (female Frodo and Sam, Halbrand is a "King" who was deprived of his Kingdom aka Aragorn, you have Arondri/Legolas, meteor man/wizard/Gandalf, and Gimli in Durin IV/elf friend, just missing 2 Harfoots and Boromir to pick up the whole gang), but there are a few less obvious ones. The shape of the capital of Numenor has the protruding white spine like Minas Tirith (I get that it was constructed by the same people, but the exact same shape is 100% to get people thinking of Minas Tirith), the line about not kneeling by Mirial made me think of Return of the King and Aragorns line to the hobbits, the Elven Fireworks was a callback to Gandalf (I mean really why would Elfs have fireworks, very much a wizard thing), the Elven leader of Arondir getting shot by two orc arrows mirrored Boromirs death, and I'm sure a lot more references back to the trilogy that I missed/didn't write.

    You can tell they wanted to get as many ways to connect to the movies through easter eggs while avoiding doing things in the characters/plot that connected like any normal person would. *sigh*
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  11. #4511
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I must have missed the Tolkien lore with the psychotic Hobbits in it. They sing songs and have a ritual about the fallen they have had (pretty pagen, which is very much not Tolkien, same with the Numenorean praying to the sea), the fallen being people that they leave behind for any which reason, be it being assaulted by bees to death (have a laugh at it like the Harfoots did), someone falling into the snow, or with female Frodos family because a man broke his ankle.


    Oh and a weird joke about doing "activities" at night, and how other Hobbits with be watching? Really fucking weird and fucked up shit.
    They actually did pray / reqeust protection from Ulmo though.. Oloresse first, but after the eagle of manwe on the prow of there ships.

  12. #4512
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    They actually did pray / reqeust protection from Ulmo though.. Oloresse first, but after the eagle of manwe on the prow of there ships.
    Must have missed that line, the show is hard to stay focused on honestly. Surprised they would considering they have been avoiding dropping the name Eru Iluvatar (couple of lines mentioning fate/the will of a greater being but none of the cannon god yet, quite possibly a rights thing but alas, if you don't have the rights to all this shit maybe don't try to make a show about it).
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-12 at 03:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  13. #4513
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    The shape of the capital of Numenor has the protruding white spine like Minas Tirith (I get that it was constructed by the same people, but the exact same shape is 100% to get people thinking of Minas Tirith)
    Minas Tirith has a waterfall? I think this is a good example of what is nitpicked just for the sake of it when it isn't really a problem. As you say it is built by the same people. It would be like complaining that Roman stuff resembles some Greek stuff. It isn't a problem even if it is a deliberate choice to call back to Minas Tirith since you know the connection between the two is valid in the Lore. Things don't have to be different just for the sake of differences.
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  14. #4514
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That isn't what "agenda" means. Having a side kick character isn't something that is bad or pushing an agenda. I'm not sure what answer I expected but it certainly wasn't that a character having friends is bad lmao. Also wouldn't it be a throwback to the OG and not Jackson?
    ah, so you're being purposefully obtuse and feigning ignorance, got it, message received loud and clear there boss.

    their agenda, as i have stated now to you directly twice, to others numbers times, is TOKENISM, every character is there to be a TOKEN representing something else because the showrunners and writers are incapable of producing their own unique story/ideas, instead they are hitchhiking off the coat tails of what came before and it's so thinly veiled it's a joke, you can use whatever pathetic strawman you want to try and defend this dross, but do us all a favour and stop posting such utter tripe trying to shore up this amateur production.

    do a poll of 1,000,000 people, and i guarantee you if you asked 'when did you first see samwise gamgee on screen' 95% would respond with the PJ film the fellowship of the ring, meaning that Amazon is purposefully aiming every single action characters take, every single mannerism and character trait as a mirror to another already established and existing character in a pathetic and embarrassing attempt to gain favour with people who are only familiar with the PJ movies, once again having to explain this to you speaks absolute volumes, and exposes what i stated previously, you have little to no knowledge of the material at hand meaning that you offer little to nothing to the conversation other than sad little attempts at distracting from the point and being a general annoyance doing it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Minas Tirith has a waterfall? I think this is a good example of what is nitpicked just for the sake of it when it isn't really a problem. As you say it is built by the same people. It would be like complaining that Roman stuff resembles some Greek stuff. It isn't a problem even if it is a deliberate choice to call back to Minas Tirith since you know the connection between the two is valid in the Lore. Things don't have to be different just for the sake of differences.
    yes, made up of melted ice water from the mountain tops, but it's the levels of gushing volumes of water shown in this dumpster fire, again showing you have no concept of what it is that you're trying to argue about, but please, don't let that stop you from continuing this asinine crusade you're on.

  15. #4515
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    their agenda, as i have stated now to you directly twice, to others numbers times, is TOKENISM
    A character having a friend is not a symbol of Tokenism. Lmao. It is crazy how hard you are going on "Friends are bad". Also of course most people would say the Jackson films were the first time they say Samwise on flim. It was the most popular film adaptation of the Lord of the Rings so of course it would have the most first time engagement.

    It still doesn't change that a character having a friend, in future works, is bad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    yes, made up of melted ice water from the mountain tops, but it's the levels of gushing volumes of water shown in this dumpster fire, again showing you have no concept of what it is that you're trying to argue about, but please, don't let that stop you from continuing this asinine crusade you're on.
    Weird as I don't think Minas Tirith has ever been shown to have a waterfall "on its point" in any of the video games or previous films.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  16. #4516
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    ...
    Mate you gotta stop feeding rhorle, he isn't here for honest conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  17. #4517
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    Angmar was never a Numenorean Colony. closest colony was the area around Lake Nenuial (its hinted at) or either Lond Dear. The next colonies were further south, Pelargir, the Land of the Princes (belfalas), and further south still, Umbar.
    We don't know for sure. We do know that Tolkien wrote in some supplementary notes that "the name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably of Númenorean descent" and I do believe he is at least hinted at (if not outright stated) to be the founder of Angmar. Which would technically make it if not an 'official' colony then at least a descendant of Númenor.

  18. #4518
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    A character having a friend is not a symbol of Tokenism. Lmao. It is crazy how hard you are going on "Friends are bad". Also of course most people would say the Jackson films were the first time they say Samwise on flim. It was the most popular film adaptation of the Lord of the Rings so of course it would have the most first time engagement.

    It still doesn't change that a character having a friend, in future works, is bad.
    where did i say it was?, you're the only one who has inferred this, you're the only one who is banging on about this because you're incapable of seeing the point being made despite it being made abundantly clear to you:

    it's not the what that's the issue, it's the how, and once again having to explain this to you is showing me and everyone else that all you're doing is putting up strawmen arguements to distract and derail the conversation because you want to defend this steaming pile of garbage.

    i couldn't care less if these 2 character were lesbian lovers, in fact i bet there's a version of the script somewhere that states they are because it helps Amazon tick off yet more minority quota bullshit, but i digress, the issue is that they are both written to be parody of frodo/sam, every single interaction they have you could layer over the top of frodo and sam from the LOTR saga and it's so similar it's uncanny, they have similar personal traits, they have nigh on identical interpersonal relationships with those around them, if that isn't TOKENISM at its finest then i don't know what is, they could have written them to be any way whatsoever and the writers/showrunners decided to write them in the exact same manner as frodo/sam, that's not only telling of the creative bankruptcy of these amateur cunts scamming a living by way of plagiarism but it speaks to the fact that Amazon and those above them gave the green light for such behaviour and material, but i guess you don't care about all that at all right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    A character having a friend is not a symbol of Tokenism. Lmao. It is crazy how hard you are going on "Friends are bad". Also of course most people would say the Jackson films were the first time they say Samwise on flim. It was the most popular film adaptation of the Lord of the Rings so of course it would have the most first time engagement.

    It still doesn't change that a character having a friend, in future works, is bad.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Weird as I don't think Minas Tirith has ever been shown to have a waterfall "on its point" in any of the video games or previous films.
    that's not what you asked, stop moving goalposts you're just making it worse for yourself.

  19. #4519
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    where did i say it was?,
    Your entire argument is that Poppy being a friend for Nori is tokenism because Sam was a friend to Frodo. Holy crap it is crazy that you deny your own argument. I'm not even sure why you are bringing lesbianism into this now. Or why a woman having a friend equal lesbian. It is crazy how much hate you are displaying over simple basic things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    that's not what you asked, stop moving goalposts you're just making it worse for yourself.
    It is. Lmao

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    but the exact same shape is 100% to get people thinking of Minas Tirith)
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Minas Tirith has a waterfall?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  20. #4520
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    yes, made up of melted ice water from the mountain tops, but it's the levels of gushing volumes of water shown in this dumpster fire, again showing you have no concept of what it is that you're trying to argue about, but please, don't let that stop you from continuing this asinine crusade you're on.
    There is no waterfall in the Weta version of Minas Tirith. It would be kind of hard for them to have put one there, given that the "prow" of the mountain is right over the entrance to the city.

    But I do enjoy that now something as innocuous as a waterfall is the newest atrocity to spark your impotent rage against literally every aspect of the show.

    Numenor is gorgeous. I'm pretty confident in saying that anyone arguing otherwise is just stroking an irrational hate-boner.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2022-09-12 at 04:45 AM.

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