Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Adamas102]

We are talking about elves here, not humans.

Either way, my issue was with a random elf being dark skinned - where do they come from? every ethnicity we have in mixed socieites all come from somewhere where they are a homogenous group.

There is an origin of some sort, even if we don't exactly know for sure how humans came to be varied so.

You could take the extra step and give an explanation for elves - nothing wrong or racist about that, the assumption that all of a sudden elven populations could be mixed is not really LOTR or Tolkien canon, it's just basically reflecting Hollywood or 21st century americn diversity for the sake of diveristy in a a world that has it's own set of rules.

to me, introducing such major variations without doing it in a n excpetionally creative, thoughtful and well explained/detailed way that could feasible fit in the lore is an injustice and just draws more criticism rather than solves.

Yes, we’re talking about elves (and dwarves, and hobbits, and even Middle-earth humans) but the issue is that you’re applying human ethnic divisiveness to these fictional races where it need not belong.

We do know how humans came to be so varied, and the idea that ethnic isolation and group homogeny is a natural and historically accurate way for populations to evolve (which must in turn be applied to fantasy races) is simply an ignorance on your part on the subject of human evolution and history.

If you were to travel back in time 10,000 years and traverse the European continent you’d find a large variety of skin tones as the mutation that primarily contributes to European white skin was still making its way across the continent. You’d find some tribes and villages where the mutation had fully diffused and most of the population was light skinned, others with mixed skin tones where the mutation was introduced but not fully expressed in all individuals, and even some villages where the mutation hadn’t yet reached and the peoples would still be dark skinned. If you then stuck around for a few thousand years, you’d also see the continued migrations of people from Africa, the Fertile Crescent, and the Near East into Europe, bringing with them things like the domesticated pig, cattle, and horse that helped spur on the Neolithic agricultural revolution. Multiethnic populations existed through ancient Egypt as well as the Greek and Roman civilizations of antiquity. Trade routes that connected Africa and Eurasia existed 1,000 years before the Middle Ages.

You need only look at isolated jungle tribes today to see what might have become of the human race if not for the large amount of migrating, mixing, and mingling that occurred from the Neolithic age and beyond. As civilizations evolved people certainly found more and more ways to divide and isolate each other (wealth, religion, culture, nationalism, etc), but race as a means of dividing people by physical traits only popped up as a concept about 400 years ago.

The idea that populations should be segregated based on skin color is a fairly modern thing. The reason I bring all of this up is because you (and a number of other posters) seem to think that this mentality should be applied to any fictional race that can exhibit human eye, hair, and skin coloration. The idea that different skin colors necessitate cultural division and cannot simply coexist with each other is based purely on racialist conditioning and an overly simplistic view of human history.

You ask how an elf can “randomly be dark skinned”? European white skin was a spontaneous mutation which then took several thousand years with hundreds of generations of traveling and intermixing to become a predominate trait across a continent. The same goes for all variations in hair and eye color (mutations that spread through population mixing). You’re also assuming Arondir is unique in his skin color, but until we’ve met every elf in Middle-earth there’s no reason to make that assumption. It might be a rare trait, but without all the racialist baggage of our modern world there’s no reason why he or any other elf with a similar skin tone would be treated differently. They’re simply elves and that’s it, the way we’re all simply humans regardless of skin color. If anything, the idea that populations should be segregated and isolated based on skin color is a relatively modern idea.

[rogoth]

Your entire argument is that Poppy being a friend for Nori is tokenism because Sam was a friend to Frodo. Holy crap it is crazy that you deny your own argument. I'm not even sure why you are bringing lesbianism into this now. Or why a woman having a friend equal lesbian. It is crazy how much hate you are displaying over simple basic things.

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It is. Lmao

no, it's not, and not only have i said that now multiple times explaining it to you in myriad ways which you still seem to fail to understand, as of writing this, you're currently the only person who has said this, you incorrectly interpreted what i said (on multiple occasions), and came to the wrong conclusion, then started putting words in my mouth by way of your very weak and pathetic strawman arguement that you keep harping on despite the fact it has nothing whatsoever to do with the point being made, at this point all you're doing is arguing with yourself, it's disconcerting really.

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There is no waterfall in the Weta version of Minas Tirith. It would be kind of hard for them to have put one there, given that the "prow" of the mountain is right over the entrance to the city.

But I do enjoy that now something as innocuous as a waterfall is the newest atrocity to spark your impotent rage against literally every aspect of the show.

Numenor is gorgeous. I'm pretty confident in saying that anyone arguing otherwise is just stroking an irrational hate-boner.

where did i say it wasn't?, please quote me where i stated anything resembling that or insinuating that, and don't worry, i'm happy to wait, as i stated above and have done with all the promotional material beforehand, it looks very nice indeed, i said however the whole package is a mess and makes no fucking sense in any way, why are you conflating things?, are you just desperate to try to poke holes in something that doesn't exist to score 'internet points' or something?

i answered an asinine question to point out that the person asking said question was exhibiting zero fucking knowledge of source material, and was making yet another strawman arguement for the sake of getting a rise out of the person they were engaging with, as an aside, the Dol Amroth Cavalry unit known as the swan knights, the best cavalry unit in all of middle earth weren't in any of the PJ films, doe that mean they didn't exist also?, just trying to understand your logic processes here.

[rhorle]

no, it's not,

this Poppy character is the thinly veiled attempt to copy sean astins portrayal of samwise gamgee, as i stated above this is her tokenism moment, this is why her character exists, to make it seem familiar to older viewers while offering new viewers a similar first time experience that those of us had watching the PJ trilogy had

So which is it? How did I put words in your mouth? Did I hack your account and make the post for you? Lmao.

[rogoth]

So which is it? How did I put words in your mouth? Did I hack your account and make the post for you? Lmao.

i suggest using the google search engine to find the definition of the phrase, then ask your parents/guardians to explain it to you, because you clearly don't understand it at all.


and as a final note, let me highlight for you the keyword you should have used because you're clearly incapable of identifying it for yourself, are you ready?, here it comes, it's a big one:

PORTRAYAL

that's the one you should have bolded, once again you're showing your inability to read, comprehend what's written, and respond properly to the material therein.

if you're going to continue with this banal and asinine bullshit, at least make it interesting, because you're doing yourself and your nation no favours by living the stereotype.

[Dhrizzle]

I did not like Galadriel being picked on by the other children elves in the beginning - that felt very un elf like - and i often wonder if there was more to the scene than to set her up as an angry man longing to prove herself.

The red-headed Elf child suggests they are sons of Fëanor and them attacking the boat is an allusion to the First Kinslaying.

-a s if she's some human twenty something year old, instead of part of a race of very wise and immortal beings that would certainly have very different and far better standards. Whiles you could say elves could be have like that, it doesn't fit the race, but it's there to set up this female character's motivations and it's just all wrong - that's not the Noldor high elves, nor Galadriel as Tolkien would present them.

You really should read about some of the bullshit the Noldor got up to.

[Sialina]

where did i say it was?, you're the only one who has inferred this, you're the only one who is banging on about this because you're incapable of seeing the point being made despite it being made abundantly clear to you:

it's not the what that's the issue, it's the how, and once again having to explain this to you is showing me and everyone else that all you're doing is putting up strawmen arguements to distract and derail the conversation because you want to defend this steaming pile of garbage.

i couldn't care less if these 2 character were lesbian lovers, in fact i bet there's a version of the script somewhere that states they are because it helps Amazon tick off yet more minority quota bullshit, but i digress, the issue is that they are both written to be parody of frodo/sam, every single interaction they have you could layer over the top of frodo and sam from the LOTR saga and it's so similar it's uncanny, they have similar personal traits, they have nigh on identical interpersonal relationships with those around them, if that isn't TOKENISM at its finest then i don't know what is, they could have written them to be any way whatsoever and the writers/showrunners decided to write them in the exact same manner as frodo/sam, that's not only telling of the creative bankruptcy of these amateur cunts scamming a living by way of plagiarism but it speaks to the fact that Amazon and those above them gave the green light for such behaviour and material, but i guess you don't care about all that at all right?

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that's not what you asked, stop moving goalposts you're just making it worse for yourself.

It's been fun reading page after page after page of rhorle losing every argument and still staying faithful to his opinion. Didn't know it was possible to be proven so wrong so many times and still believe you were right.

Episode 3 was really boring, but my main complaint right now is the terrible dialogue and some of the fighting is just terrible. The hobbit movies were bad, this is getting progressively worse. The original trilogy is so far beyond this that it's not even funny. when I saw it 20 years ago as a little girl I thought woooooow, imagine how amazing things will be in 10, 20 or 30 years! I never imagined it would be way worse.

[Biomega]

when I saw it 20 years ago as a little girl I thought woooooow, imagine how amazing things will be in 10, 20 or 30 years! I never imagined it would be way worse.

It's our fault.

We as consumers have consistently been rewarding spectacle over substance and sophistication. It's really not that surprising they'd try and cater to that apparent preference.

Stop rewarding them for things we don't actually like, I guess. What more can we do, really.

[s_bushido]

It's our fault.

We as consumers have consistently been rewarding spectacle over substance and sophistication. It's really not that surprising they'd try and cater to that apparent preference.

Stop rewarding them for things we don't actually like, I guess. What more can we do, really.

Jackson's LotR movies were all spectacle. It literally opens with "epic battle narrated by epic voiceover."

The biggest problem with the Hobbit movies seems to have been that they were given too much leeway as a result of the massive success of the first trilogy. By this logic, no one should have supported those first movies, so we wouldn't have wound up with the disappointing ones that came after...

[Dhrizzle]

I always wondered if there was a breaking point for Tolkien when half-elves stop being.... half elves. Elrond is probably about 3/5-4/5 elf. I can't remember if it's his mother's or father's side, but one is almost completely mixed. Speaking of Arwen though, she is likely at least 7/8 elf, and that 1/8 man is straight up Edain, which are as close to mortal elves (angelic men) as Tolkien will give you.
I don't know why but the half-elven moniker kind of always struck me wrong, just because the connotation is half man and "Man" doesn't even really exist on Middle Earth until about mid second age. The Edain were ascendant beings compared to man, they were already taller, stronger, wiser, and longer lived than what man actually became and this was before they were granted the blessing and became numernorians.

They were still Men though, the principle difference being Elves' fëar are bound to Arda until its ending and Men's fëar pass through the Halls of Mandos to a fate unknown. There is no fractions of Elven heritage like that, you're either an Elf, a Man or a mix of the two who gets to choose the final fate of their fëa.

[Biomega]

Jackson's LotR movies were all spectacle.

But they weren't JUST spectacle.

I'm not saying NO spectacle, I'm saying no spectacle OVER OTHER THINGS.

[Dhrizzle]

That isn't what "agenda" means. Having a side kick character isn't something that is bad or pushing an agenda. I'm not sure what answer I expected but it certainly wasn't that a character having friends is bad lmao. Also wouldn't it be a throwback to the OG and not Jackson?

You're using the wrong logic. If you've been told "agendas are bad" and "Rings of Power is bad" then obviously you're going to complain about all the agendas (bad things) in the series (bad thing.) Remember it's 2022 where people value their feelings about words more than their meanings.

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Half the show is trying to reference things from the LoTR. The characters are pretty obvious (female Frodo and Sam, Halbrand is a "King" who was deprived of his Kingdom aka Aragorn, you have Arondri/Legolas, meteor man/wizard/Gandalf, and Gimli in Durin IV/elf friend, just missing 2 Harfoots and Boromir to pick up the whole gang), but there are a few less obvious ones. The shape of the capital of Numenor has the protruding white spine like Minas Tirith (I get that it was constructed by the same people, but the exact same shape is 100% to get people thinking of Minas Tirith), the line about not kneeling by Mirial made me think of Return of the King and Aragorns line to the hobbits, the Elven Fireworks was a callback to Gandalf (I mean really why would Elfs have fireworks, very much a wizard thing), the Elven leader of Arondir getting shot by two orc arrows mirrored Boromirs death, and I'm sure a lot more references back to the trilogy that I missed/didn't write.

You can tell they wanted to get as many ways to connect to the movies through easter eggs while avoiding doing things in the characters/plot that connected like any normal person would. *sigh*

If you want to utterly reduce the Fellowship down to the race of its members and completely ignore their characters, ignore the fact the people you mention are scattered across the world and ignore everything else going on then yeah it's just like the Fellowship; but that's an awful lot of mental gymnastics just to make a poor point.

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We do know how humans came to be so varied, and the idea that ethnic isolation and group homogeny is a natural and historically accurate way for populations to evolve (which must in turn be applied to fantasy races) is simply an ignorance on your part on the subject of human evolution and history.

Nope, stop right there. Scientification of his fantasy was definitely something Tolkien didn't like. Elves and Men didn't have evolutionary history, they awoke fully formed at a time appointed by Illuvatar. For the Elves decent account(s) exist of these early days but for Men it's left a mystery, though almost certainly they would have come under some sort of influence of Morgoth or Sauron from which they gained their dread of death (and for some a belief they were supposed to be immortal like the Elves.)

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But they weren't JUST spectacle.

I'm not saying NO spectacle, I'm saying no spectacle OVER OTHER THINGS.

Well no, they were also massive distortions of the book characters to provide comedy or emotional impact.

[s_bushido]

I'm not saying NO spectacle, I'm saying no spectacle OVER OTHER THINGS.

If people could snap their fingers and do that, we wouldn't have to put up with the shit Michael Bay and Zack Snyder churn out. But writing good stories, getting good performances out of your actors, and compiling/editing down all the footage into a cohesive product (the actual hard stuff about making these sorts of shows/movies) isn't really something you can just throw money at.

[Dhrizzle]

Jackson's LotR movies were all spectacle. It literally opens with "epic battle narrated by epic voiceover."

The biggest problem with the Hobbit movies seems to have been that they were given too much leeway as a result of the massive success of the first trilogy. By this logic, no one should have supported those first movies, so we wouldn't have wound up with the disappointing ones that came after...

The biggest problem with the Hobbit movies is they tried to make a trilogy as big as LotR using about a sixth of the material.

[s_bushido]

The biggest problem with the Hobbit movies is they tried to make a trilogy as big as LotR using about a sixth of the material.

Yeah, but that's part of the "too much leeway." Someone just probably needed to tell them no, at some point...

[Logwyn]

I always wondered if there was a breaking point for Tolkien when half-elves stop being.... half elves. Elrond is probably about 3/5-4/5 elf. I can't remember if it's his mother's or father's side, but one is almost completely mixed. Speaking of Arwen though, she is likely at least 7/8 elf, and that 1/8 man is straight up Edain, which are as close to mortal elves (angelic men) as Tolkien will give you.
I don't know why but the half-elven moniker kind of always struck me wrong, just because the connotation is half man and "Man" doesn't even really exist on Middle Earth until about mid second age. The Edain were ascendant beings compared to man, they were already taller, stronger, wiser, and longer lived than what man actually became and this was before they were granted the blessing and became numernorians.

I am sure that sort of thing is confusing and I guess really Arwen is 1/4 elf? I think the biggest thing with Half-Elf is they get to choose to be immortal or become mortal.

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Its one of those grey areas (and as far as elf-human relationships iirc Tolkien considers it as such) since technically she had the choice to be elf/immortal but with choosing Aragon she choose to be mortal. Also technically she was 3/4's Elvish, since Elrond is half and Celebrian was Elven.

True enough!

[Biomega]

If people could snap their fingers and do that, we wouldn't have to put up with the shit Michael Bay and Zack Snyder churn out. But writing good stories, getting good performances out of your actors, and compiling/editing down all the footage into a cohesive product (the actual hard stuff about making these sorts of shows/movies) isn't really something you can just throw money at.

You can, but that's not what the money people want. That's the problem.

You say we "put up" with Bay, Snyder & Co. - but the reality is, that shit SELLS. That's my point. Fast & Furious films and such ilk are about as close as you get to intellectual torture, but the reality is that they are absolute money printing machines. BECAUSE they're dumb, not in spite of it. There's massive audiences out there who actively don't WANT complex, sophisticated narratives. They just want to see shit blow up, and the audience at large is segmented along lines of various degrees of that.

It's not that they just can't make those good stories or that "throwing money" at the problem wouldn't solve it; it's that nobody wants to do that, because why would they if you can make so much MORE money making dumb shit.

How many of the highest-grossing movies had actual good writing? Not just "not shit" level, but sophisticated, engaging writing. That's my point. A lot of those films only had GOOD ENOUGH writing to pair with the spectacle part well enough to broaden their appeal sufficiently. But by and large, they're not exactly good writing in the abstract. And sometimes they're phenomenally successful even with really, really bad writing (see Avatar, for example).

And all that is because we, as consumers, by and large don't reward good writing enough; or, conversely, reward spectacle over writing too much.

[rhorle]

It's been fun reading page after page after page of rhorle losing every argument and still staying faithful to his opinion. Didn't know it was possible to be proven so wrong so many times and still believe you were right..

Every argument? Can you indicate in what lore Minas Tirith has a waterfall on its point? Lmao. It is crazy how people lie just because they can't handle someone that disagrees with their opinion.

[InfiniteCharger]

I introduced lost because you specifically said no other show is as slow to answer questions. So Lost leaving questions unanswered after 6 seasons clearly shows you were wrong and that it is fine for RoP to have questions unanswered after 3 episodes. If you don't like Lost what about The Mandalorian? It took a full season to answer what Din looks like and some question left unanswered. Season 2 answered some but not all. Isn't that slower then 3 episodes?

OK. But clearly high fantasy and definitely not Tolkien are not about mystery box storytelling. We know where all this is going and there is no real mystery to what happens in this era. And all of these so-called 'mysteries' are to unravel how much they have changed the events and characters of the 2nd age in order to make this series. So by bringing up Lost what you are trying to do is to defend that kind of story telling here in the writing for this series. Which is fine. But only affirms that the show is intentionally setting up these 'mysteries' to drag out the story as opposed to just letting it unfold.

[rhorle]

OK. But clearly high fantasy and definitely not Tolkien are not about mystery box storytelling. We know where all this is going and there is no real mystery to what happens in this era.

The only reason why we knew where things were going in the Jackson film is because people read the books. The first time you read Tolkien's works there was no idea where everything was going. What places were. Who or what relevance people had. It unraveled as you read the book. By bringing up Lost, The Mandalorian, or any other show, is to indicate that not every question gets answered in the first episode that question appears in. I am really beginning to think that you have not watched many TV shows if you think they always answer every question a viewer has.

[PACOX]

So, how bad is it in reality?

After watching House of the Dragon I was pleasantly surprised how good it captured the early GoT mood while giving us new stuff. RoP looks like generic fantasy trash and everything I saw and read about it seemed awful. "Be happy that they gave you a TV show" was one of the reasons I've read why this show is good - that's a terrible answer for the question raised.

Tolkien is the definition of generic fantasy.

I wouldn't compare the two shows besides heavy use of English accents and being in low tech worlds. Other than that you have two very different universes.