Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[rhorle]

Stop making shit up. I never said that "everyone exists in peace, love, and harmony". Also insult=/= slur. Try to engage with the argument.

A slur is an insult. I'm engaging with your argument but you keep changing why it doesn't work. First it was pointy ears yet we've established Elves have pointy ears. Then you said Tolkien didn't humanize the elves even though they are almost the same species. Then it was there are not racial tensions in Tolkien work to have slurs. Yet we know that isn't true because we've seen racial tensions shown.

The thing is though that Tolkien was trying to keep vulgarity out of his works. So he made things more poetic when they needed to have insults. That however doesn't mean that the culture and society function with out the vulgarity only that it wasn't important to his story and something he was trying to avoid to set his work apart from others of the time period.

A slur doesn't require pointy ears to be a negative connotation. It only requires that it could points out something "different" about the target. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs Most of the slurs on that list wouldn't work based on your narrow definition of a ethnic/racial slur. What makes it a slur is that it is calling out something only that group contains. Which is why ABC could be a "slur" to insult/demean American Born Chinese people.

It is laughable that you think a slur can only be a slur if the target "exist below" the one using the slur. Knife-ears in Dragon Age isn't even a reference to their heritage, social standing, or anything else. It is simply because their ears are pointed, like a knife, and it sets them apart. So calling that characteristic out and using it in a negative fashion makes it a slur. It is why groups in the real world have "reclaimed" words or terms to repurpose them from a slur.

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Overall the warg scene was okay. I'm more bothered by how ridiculous the CGI looked rather than Arondir turning into a twig assassin straight out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

I think it wasn't that bad but the "young" or "baby" warg look was definitely a problem. But I don't think the scene would have worked the same with a full grown adult warg as they seem like they would be to powerful to lose. Though it is possible these are "ancestors" so look slightly different.

[Nerovar]

I'm engaging with your argument but you keep changing why it doesn't work. First it was pointy ears yet we've established Elves have pointy ears. Then you said Tolkien didn't humanize the elves even though they are almost the same species. Then it was there are not racial tensions in Tolkien work to have slurs. Yet we know that isn't true because we've seen racial tensions shown.

Except you haven't demonstrated a single one of these things. "Knife-ears" specifically arose from the fact that later depictions of Elves had comically elongated ears due to flanderization which is simply not applicable to LotR elves. Tolkien uses a lot of descriptions to differentiate between Men and Elves (skin, eyes, hair, height) but ears are never mentioned while particularly beautiful Men could sometimes pass as Elves. Also you haven't given any example for "racial tensions" between Humans and Elves that would justify the existence of racial slur like that. It's also funny that you still think "humanised" just means that they look like humans.

The thing is though that Tolkien was trying to keep vulgarity out of his works. So he made things more poetic when they needed to have insults. That however doesn't mean that the culture and society function with out the vulgarity only that it wasn't important to his story and something he was trying to avoid to set his work apart from others of the time period.

So you agree that it has no place in his work then? Great.

A slut doesn't require pointy ears to a negative connotation. It only requires that it could be an insult to the target being used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs Most of the slurs on that list wouldn't work based on your narrow definition of a ethnic/racial slur. What makes it a slur is that it is calling out something only that group contains. Which is why ABC could be a "slur" to insult/demean American Born Chinese people.

Why do you think racial slurs exist? Why do you think certain slurs have "power" while others don't? What makes ABC a slur instead of being a mere descriptive term?

It is laughable that you think a slur can only be a slur if the target "exist below" the one using the slur. Knife-ears in Dragon Age isn't even a reference to their heritage, social standing, or anything else. It is simply because their ears are pointed, like a knife, and it sets them apart. So calling that characteristic out and using it in a negative fashion makes it a slur. It is why groups in the real world have "reclaimed" words or terms to repurpose them from a slur.

If the description "knife-ear" had nothing to do with their "heritage, social standing, or anything else" then why would it be perceived as an insult to begin with? It can only be perceived as such within the social context that gave rise to the slur. That's typically how slurs tend to work. It's not much of a slur if it isn't used to create/maintain some kind of power imbalance that can be used to justify the imagined inferiority of the other. Should be kind of obvious why this doesn't apply to Elves who are pretty much idealized versions of Men that surpass them in virtually every way.

[rhorle]

Except you haven't demonstrated a single one of these things. "Knife-ears" specifically arose from the fact that later depictions of Elves had comically elongated ears due to flanderization which is simply not applicable to LotR elves.

Knife ears was created by a game company to describe pointy ears. It spread because it is a good "clean" insult for elves who across fantasy have pointy ears of various length and shape. We've both established that Tolkien-elves have points even if they are more leaf shaped then long. So the insult can fit perfectly fine.

If the description "knife-ear" had nothing to do with their "heritage, social standing, or anything else" then why would it be perceived as an insult to begin with?

Wait. Do you honestly think that insults have to have a basis in heritage, social standing, or anything else of that nature? That it can't just exist as an insult because someone decided to say it? Did you even look over the list of ethnic slurs I provided? Because most of those became insults because X about Y was used by people in an insulting manner. Not all have some deeper meaning or requirement in order to be a slur/insult. There isn't a power balance required in a slur. Only an insulting one used to separate a group from others.

So you agree that it has no place in his work then? Great.

Knife-ears isn't vulgar. At least not much more then Jackson work where we had Stupid, Fat, short, go kill yourself (in more poetic words) etc. Of course the Jackson movies are not Tolkien work but they are well regarded and a "standard" most will have to compare current work with. And like I said Tolkien didn't shy away from insults or things they just usually were more poetic in nature. Seeing as how knife-ears isn't a real world slur it isn't vulgar or carry the connotations that Tolkien implied he wanted to avoid.

"Fool of a Took! Throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity!" (movie)
"I would cut off your head, Dwarf, if it stood but a little higher from the ground." (movie)
"Forty-two?! That's not bad for a pointy-eared Elvish princeling" (movie)
"Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs?" (book)
"Get thee gone from my gate, though jail-crow of Mandos!" (Book)

Some of these are from the films and some are from the book. It shows that Tolkien used insults that carried the same sentiments as "knife-ears". It shows that Jackson used them which cemented LotR in the modern age. So why is Amazon bad for using the same types of things just because a video game originated the term? A term that has since been used across many fantasy works as an insult.

[bledgor]

...

Mate Rhorle is a bad faith, just ignore him and keep talking to others.

[Xath]

Forever, lol, they've been around since the late 80s. That's in most of our lifetimes.

Sidney Poitier is probably the earliest example you can find of a black leading man, and he was one...in the 60s. Then cinema, seeing that black people loved Sidney Poitier, instead of incorporating them into mainstream Hollywood, spun off a whole industry of blaxploitation films, trying to keep black cinema "separate but equal (but not really ever equal as the name blaxploitation implies)" from Hollywood. Even major sitcoms were separated this way. It wasn't til the 80s that black actors started finding success mainstream. And it wasn't til The Cosby Show and Fresh Prince that white people really started watching shows compromised mainly of black actors.

This isn't some old, long-healed scar. This happened recently.

Most people on this forums are not in their 40s. Race bending doesn't fix issues it causes them. Create new stories or choose properties that already have the "minority(only in the US not worldwide)" you want to showcase. An example of terrible "diversity" is americanizing death note even netflix has admitted they fucked up and live action SAO will actually have asian actors cast. If a big budget live action King's Avatar ever happens it better have actors of Chinese descent. Seriously you are not in the right here. There is a reason these changes are primarily happening to works that the author is dead and can't object. You do not know better than the writer if you did you would be a many times over millionaire whose work was beloved by millions and neither do these rookie as hell showrunners who butcher worlds and works at will.

[Nerovar]

Knife ears was created by a game company to describe pointy ears. It spread because it is a good "clean" insult for elves who across fantasy have pointy ears of various length and shape. We've both established that Tolkien-elves have points even if they are more leaf shaped then long. So the insult can fit perfectly fine.



Wait. Do you honestly think that insults have to have a basis in heritage, social standing, or anything else of that nature? That it can't just exist as an insult because someone decided to say it? Did you even look over the list of ethnic slurs I provided? Because most of those became insults because X about Y was used by people in an insulting manner. Not all have some deeper meaning or requirement in order to be a slur/insult. There isn't a power balance required in a slur. Only an insulting one used to separate a group from others.



Knife-ears isn't vulgar. At least not much more then Jackson work where we had Stupid, Fat, short, go kill yourself (in more poetic words) etc. Of course the Jackson movies are not Tolkien work but they are well regarded and a "standard" most will have to compare current work with. And like I said Tolkien didn't shy away from insults or things they just usually were more poetic in nature. Seeing as how knife-ears isn't a real world slur it isn't vulgar or carry the connotations that Tolkien implied he wanted to avoid.

"Fool of a Took! Throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity!" (movie)
"I would cut off your head, Dwarf, if it stood but a little higher from the ground." (movie)
"Forty-two?! That's not bad for a pointy-eared Elvish princeling" (movie)
"Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs?" (book)
"Get thee gone from my gate, though jail-crow of Mandos!" (Book)

Some of these are from the films and some are from the book. It shows that Tolkien used insults that carried the same sentiments as "knife-ears". It shows that Jackson used them which cemented LotR in the modern age. So why is Amazon bad for using the same types of things just because a video game originated the term? A term that has since been used across many fantasy works as an insult.

Mate, if you won't bother replying to the actual content of my posts don't click on reply.

[Mace]

You say this like it’s some sort of great, novel, and “correct” idea apparently without realizing that it’s deeply rooted in racist ideology.

White humans and black humans aren’t different subspecies. Biologically speaking we’re all part of the same race. The only reason we have these sorts of racial divisions are because a bunch of people hundreds of years ago decided that skin tone was (among other things) a good indication of superiority/inferiority and the trickle down effect of that still reverberates to this day. Variance in hair color and eye color are no different in a biological sense than skin color, but I highly doubt you’d split a group of white people into different races based on either of those factors because you just haven’t been conditioned to view them the same way.

What you’re essentially saying is that skin color alone makes someone SO different that the only way they could even fit into a fantasy setting is if they’re a completely separate and segregated group. It doesn’t even matter if this fantasy setting doesn’t share our actual history, the only way it seems to make sense to you is if our history of human prejudice is applied to it.

We are talking about elves here, not humans.

Either way, my issue was with a random elf being dark skinned - where do they come from? every ethnicity we have in mixed socieites all come from somewhere where they are a homogenous group.

There is an origin of some sort, even if we don't exactly know for sure how humans came to be varied so.

You could take the extra step and give an explanation for elves - nothing wrong or racist about that, the assumption that all of a sudden elven populations could be mixed is not really LOTR or Tolkien canon, it's just basically reflecting Hollywood or 21st century americn diversity for the sake of diveristy in a a world that has it's own set of rules.

to me, introducing such major variations without doing it in a n excpetionally creative, thoughtful and well explained/detailed way that could feasible fit in the lore is an injustice and just draws more criticism rather than solves.

if the production was excellent all round, we wouldn't even care..we'd notice, but we'd consider it minor. Sadly, that isn't the case.

[Veggie50]

Not Adar...
They played too heavily into the Sauron look with the gauntlet and an actual elvish look to him.
Odd place for Sauron to be located at tbh. It just screams "DON'T LOOK AT HALBRAND, LOOK AT THIS GUY".

Halbrand seems like the safe pick. Talking about his bloodlines connection with Morgoth and then throw in how he is tainted from being of said line seems like such an easy "sympathy" card to gain trust. Which seemed to have worked with Galadriel.
Sauron needs to get to Lindon and have people trust him, Galadriel bringing him back and vouching for him is perfect for that.

However, what speaks against that is just how Galadriel is written so far. Her bringing Sauron to Lindon would be such an antithesis to how they try to portray her.
And if it isn't Sauron it feels like a red herring written for the audience sake more so than the story.

Of course 5 seasons to go... so it can be anyone at this point.

I think Halbrands meant to be an aragorn analogue (aragorn felt tainted aswell by his ancestors failure. In order to do better than his ancestors he’ll probably accept a nice shiny ring from a fella named anatar. After all, the nine were great kings of men.

I don’t think we’ve seen sauron, but I think hes a numenorean adviser to the king/queen.

[Mace]

So you are upset at something that hasn't yet occurred? The problem isn't the quality of the show but the nebulous "tolkien enough" that it has to meet. That standard changes based on the individual fan and what specific parts they want to take issue with or the parts they nitpick and make in to a bigger problem then they really are.

Hence how you bring "white people and males" into this when white people and males are not threatened by any of the changes in the show and are not a standard for something to be called Tolkien.

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Right. So knife ear works as an insult because there is a point. Your point B also includes Tolkien as he specifically made the differences between Elves and Humans to be low because he considered them to be the same species. It is strange to true and argue that there would be no racial slurs used in Tolkien's World or that the Elves were always universally well-liked.

The show needed to be of the very highest quality all round to silence the critics.

People are evidently fed up of the woke stuff, the problem here is when they changed Tolkien's work to reflect their ideals, - not actually a problem with diversity or inclusion.. RoP isn't that woke, not by a long shot, not like Wheel of Time which is ridiculously woke. if it's race you're concerned with, i mean, so far it was just 1 black elf and dwarf - shouldn't we be more curious about how they are there, rather than criticise or hate them for being their?

so why do people have that reaction? Well watch the media /marketing campaign, and when the final product came out and it failed to impress.. well, all those other issues that people would have overlooked in a great production, now just add to misery.

What were the biggest issues in the criticism of RoP so far- it certainly hasn't been the black elf/dwarf (in fact, all those haters, generalised and labelled as racist actually have loved those two characters the most) - wooden/manspreading and just unlikeable Galadriel taken out of character, excessive male (in particular white male) villainising, inconsistent plot, tone, and expectations that don't match that off Tolkien's stories or Jackson's adaptations - the expectations were high and it hasn't lived up to the standards people expect.

As LotR tagged, the standard and bar is much higher, if this was a normal simple fantasy, it would probably have been received very well, aobove average despite the questionable things here and there, but having this title, it is put under the microscope with all it's flaws exposed. They really should have done better.

I still watch it though and likely will, i take it for what it is, an alternate timeline of fantasy, I love the scenery and the music, quite liking the dwarves, especially Princess Desa, and the black elf too - but i it's not something i'm looking forward to or waiting to see first thing every Thursday or would get up to buy merchanndise and join fan conventions etc - not even close.

[rhorle]

Mate, if you won't bother replying to the actual content of my posts don't click on reply.

Don't deflect because you can't actually answer the argument being presented to you. If you want to bow out of the discussion then do so on your own terms. Don't be petty enough to put it on me when I keep engaging and you no longer want to. What about how the Rangers, and Strider, were looked down upon by at least parts of Bree? That is another example of "trait" based dislike in the LotR. Which once again shows that an insult about elves pointy ears fits with the general theme of the story.

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The show needed to be of the very highest quality all round to silence the critics.

The show would never silence the critics. It is laregly impossible to do that now a days and this show was being given low marks even before it was released. That alone further proves how impossible your statement is. There is very little "woke stuff" in the show and having different skin tones is hardly a change to Tolkien's work. Again nothing is changed about the actually work just because of skin color. You even say that Rings of Power isn't that woke yet you still invoke "wokeness" as a problem with the show. Strange, right? Almost as if you are hating just to hate with out an actual argument to back it up.

[hecpercu]

U guys discussing bout race and all that nonsense and you forget to mention the most obvious problem:
The show, cgi, art, scenography, dialogues and acting is just so so so so bad, that it almost looks as aliexpressy as the wheel of time.
Pure garbage.
Thanks.

[Triceron]

The show needed to be of the very highest quality all round to silence the critics.

People are evidently fed up of the woke stuff, the problem here is when they changed Tolkien's work to reflect their ideals, - not actually a problem with diversity or inclusion.. RoP isn't that woke, not by a long shot, not like Wheel of Time which is ridiculously woke. if it's race you're concerned with, i mean, so far it was just 1 black elf and dwarf - shouldn't we be more curious about how they are there, rather than criticise or hate them for being their?

It was refreshing that they didn't hyper-focus on how they chose to have racial inclusion or women in main roles in this show. I think it worked decently.

I got irked by the Brandyfoot sisters mother being dark skinned while they weren't, but looking into it apparently she is their stepmother. I must've missed where they mention that, but that explanation works for me.

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U guys discussing bout race and all that nonsense and you forget to mention the most obvious problem:
The show, cgi, art, scenography, dialogues and acting is just so so so so bad, that it almost looks as aliexpressy as the wheel of time.
Pure garbage.
Thanks.

It's a streaming show. Even the best Disney streaming shows don'y hold a candle to movie production quality.

[Khaza-R]

It's a streaming show. Even the best Disney streaming shows don'y hold a candle to movie production quality.

I don't know about that. Did anyone ever watch GoT and think "wow this looks cheap"?

And for the record, I don't think RoP looks cheap. Perhaps not the quality of ~90 million USD an episode, but definitely not cheap.

[Nerovar]

Don't deflect because you can't actually answer the argument being presented to you. If you want to bow out of the discussion then do so on your own terms. Don't be petty enough to put it on me when I keep engaging and you no longer want to.

Yeah, maybe read more than a quarter of my posts instead of selectively quoting tangential points you're more comfortable engaging with and then I will write a response to your argument (even though I basically already adressed most of it which you would know if you read my posts). You also refused to answer even a single question I posed to you (both in the last post and the one before that) so it is pretty obvious that you're not willing to seriously engage with the argument.

It's a streaming show. Even the best Disney streaming shows don'y hold a candle to movie production quality.

Hardly an excuse. House of the Dragon looks much better, has better dialogue, superior acting (and actors), costumes etc. while costing a fraction of Rings of Power.

[Kumorii]

I don't know about that. Did anyone ever watch GoT and think "wow this looks cheap"?

And for the record, I don't think RoP looks cheap. Perhaps not the quality of ~90 million USD an episode, but definitely not cheap.

Weirdly that's a big issue for me. Almost everything looks overdone beyond function. Things aren't looking cheap, a lot of it should probably look cheaper though.

The quality of the VFX though. it's certainly not up to par with the money thrown at it. But that's another thing.

[Mace]

The show would never silence the critics. It is laregly impossible to do that now a days and this show was being given low marks even before it was released. That alone further proves how impossible your statement is. There is very little "woke stuff" in the show and having different skin tones is hardly a change to Tolkien's work. Again nothing is changed about the actually work just because of skin color. You even say that Rings of Power isn't that woke yet you still invoke "wokeness" as a problem with the show. Strange, right? Almost as if you are hating just to hate with out an actual argument to back it up.

You can't please everyone, but if it was of the exceptionally high quality that Jackson's movies were, then the nay sayers would be distinct minority.. compare it to woke House of Dragons, people seem to love that a lot more and care far less about racial changes, female masculinization and male denigration, which it has. But then despite all these things, it's staying true to what Game of Thrones is, and RoPs biggest criticism is that it isn't staying true to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings world it keeps associating itself with.

Would that have mattered nearly as much if the production was top class and expertly done ? No, that's not to say it won't have mattered, but , it would have , to enough people, but no where near as much as it does now. They needed a top notch production all round, and this sadly isn't it. It's got some good things, but well - marketed all wrong, went heavy on less important things while going cheap on absolute fundamentals. This lies squarely on the production

[rhorle]

Yeah, maybe read more than a quarter of my posts instead of selectively quoting tangential points you're more comfortable engaging with and then I will write a response to your argument

You continually are not writing a response to my arguments. You further deflect in saying it is my problem when this is entirely on your end. At least own up to you no longer wanting to engage. A person doesn't always have to word for word refute an argument in order to point out its failings. You've continually missed the mark on everything to do with the discussion and refuse to now engage on anything unless it accepts your words as undisputed facts. Strange, right?

I've never refused to answer a single thing you've asked. You just haven't liked the answers you were given. Stop putting this on me when you are the only one refusing things here. Your last post didn't even include a question yet you still accuse me of not answering Lol. While you explain where the question was in that post maybe follow its advice?

Mate, if you won't bother replying to the actual content of my posts don't click on reply.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There is a reason these changes are primarily happening to works that the author is dead and can't object.

Hasn't this only happened like twice with LoTR and wheel of time? While we have also had, the Witcher, sandman, tons of marvel movies, Game of thrones/HoD, and likely a few more.

The idea that they are targeting franchises with dead author's seems like a load of nonsense.

[Mace]

It was refreshing that they didn't hyper-focus on how they chose to have racial inclusion or women in main roles in this show. I think it worked decently.

I got irked by the Brandyfoot sisters mother being dark skinned while they weren't, but looking into it apparently she is their stepmother. I must've missed where they mention that, but that explanation works for me.
.

Indeed, when a production is great, we usually don't care at all that women are focused on or racial inclusion - i mean we may be sick of how they are all doing it, but at the end of the day, omen can be great and there are other ethnicities around.

it wasn't that woke either. Galadriel, like she is written and portrayed doesn't carry this show to the heights, i have heard it mentioned in circles that if we had a more charismatic actress or main cast, it could have been a different story - I'm not so sure, the way they wrote Galadriel is also a huge part of why this fails, but then a charismatic actor tends to change how characters are written, because they just bring an excellent version that is just impossible to turn away for a worse version in the original script. or they bring out the best bits.

I did not like Galadriel being picked on by the other children elves in the beginning - that felt very un elf like - and i often wonder if there was more to the scene than to set her up as an angry man longing to prove herself -a s if she's some human twenty something year old, instead of part of a race of very wise and immortal beings that would certainly have very different and far better standards. Whiles you could say elves could be have like that, it doesn't fit the race, but it's there to set up this female character's motivations and it's just all wrong - that's not the Noldor high elves, nor Galadriel as Tolkien would present them.

But then I saw the same in wow, and use to praise tolkien's LotR for how you correctly portray immortal wise beings - these writers seem to simply forget they made them another race that is immortal and extremely wise, - why not exemplify that in your early example - because they have to set Galadriel as angry man-woman - and it just doesn't work..

[InfiniteCharger]

So far in this series there have been numerous egregious changes to the lore and those changes aren't really adding up to anything compelling. And really most of this series is nothing but made up characters, invented by Amazon, surrounded by a bunch of weird mysteries and no singular main plot or story. So it is all over the place in that sense and none of those story lines in and of themselves are really important to the big picture which should be obvious by 3 episodes in. And this is where people begin to jump ship because it becomes tedious and uninteresting to follow these separate narratives that aren't leading to anything that anybody cares about in Tolkien or are interesting in their own right.

1. Where is Sauron
2. Who is Meteor Man
3. Who is Halbrand
4. What is this mark Galadriel found
5. What is in the dwarven box
6. Who is Theo's father
7. Where is Tar Palantir and why is he in exile
8. Who are the faithful
9. What is the sword handed to Elendil
10. Who is Adar
11. Who are the 3 mysterious people
12. What is this constellation shown by meteor man
13. Why are the Elves and Numenor not on good terms
14. and so on

And this show just keeps adding more questions and not answering any of them.