Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Dhrizzle]

Just because it wasn't published doesn't mean he didn't write everything as he wanted them to be. The legendarium exists, things happened in a correct sequence and this show isn't only condensing the timeline beyond belief. It's actively changing how everything connects together and changing how those characters exist in his writings.

The main reason it wasn't published is Tolkien didn't get things how he wanted them to be and kept changing things up until his death. Finrod's status as Galadriel's brother was one of several origins Tolkien played with and I think it was in the last few months of his life that he changed the story of Galadriel and Celeborn so he was actually an Amani Teleri (giving him a nice promotion to Caliquendi) and the two of them met before sailing to Middle-earth.

The most egregious part to me are the Harfoots. They're creating an origin story for the Hobbits when there is none. Now, Harfoots are written about but there's no detailed story about them. They're writing it from scratch.

It's not an origin story, it doesn't explain what the Hobbit's first ancestors were like when they awoke in Hildorien, when they split from the other Men or when they became halflings (if they didn't awake that way.)

It's the kind of thing Tolkien showed time and time again that it would irritate him the most. The Hobbits do not have an origin story because there isn't one. Tolkien didn't forget about it. He didn't write it. Full stop.

No what irritated him was making changes to stories he had spent a lot of time perfecting without artistic or technical reasons. At an earlier time he expressed a desire to create a grand mythology with some parts written in detail and others just sketched to allow "other minds and hands wielding paint and music and drama."

Who exactly is this show for I ask. As a fan of the books I'd rather know before hand what's going to happen in the show then get surprised every week with a new deviation.

It's for fans of Tolkien who want to see his world, characters and events brought to life.

- - - Updated - - -

The Jackson movies aren't a perfect adaptation, but if you're trying to put them on the same level of disrespect for Tolkien's work then you're just being disingenuous about it and there's nothing more to discuss with you

I'd argue the Jackson movies showed more disrespect by making changes to a piece of work Tolkien spent so long perfecting with really egregious changes to the way some characters are portrayed.

[tikcol]

The main reason it wasn't published is Tolkien didn't get things how he wanted them to be and kept changing things up until his death. Finrod's status as Galadriel's brother was one of several origins Tolkien played with and I think it was in the last few months of his life that he changed the story of Galadriel and Celeborn so he was actually an Amani Teleri (giving him a nice promotion to Caliquendi) and the two of them met before sailing to Middle-earth.



It's not an origin story, it doesn't explain what the Hobbit's first ancestors were like when they awoke in Hildorien, when they split from the other Men or when they became halflings (if they didn't awake that way.)



No what irritated him was making changes to stories he had spent a lot of time perfecting without artistic or technical reasons. At an earlier time he expressed a desire to create a grand mythology with some parts written in detail and others just sketched to allow "other minds and hands wielding paint and music and drama."



It's for fans of Tolkien who want to see his world, characters and events brought to life.

So now that's he's dead you get to pick and choose and change what was written because he kept changing things up until his death? That's not very honest.

It is an origin story in the sense that's we're getting glimpses of the the Hobbit philosophy in the 3rd age of not getting involved with the "outside world" and that adventures are non-sense.

No what irritated him was making changes to stories he had spent a lot of time perfecting without artistic or technical reasons

That's what you just made up. It's a very skewed interpretation of the quote to fit this whole narrative of yours and you know it. Besides.. he did put a lot of time perfecting what is written. Be it published or not. If you do not want to view it that way then that's your problem.

It's for fans of Tolkien who want to see his world, characters and events brought to life.

RoP is not representing Tolkien's work, characters or events. So no, it isn't for fans of Tolkien.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The Jackson movies aren't a perfect adaptation, but if you're trying to put them on the same level of disrespect for Tolkien's work then you're just being disingenuous about it and there's nothing more to discuss with you

In Tolkien’s own words “the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.”, and no one can truly say stuff like this isn’t exactly that.

[exochaft]

Just because it wasn't published doesn't mean he didn't write everything as he wanted them to be. The legendarium exists, things happened in a correct sequence and this show isn't only condensing the timeline beyond belief. It's actively changing how everything connects together and changing how those characters exist in his writings.

The most egregious part to me are the Harfoots. They're creating an origin story for the Hobbits when there is none. Now, Harfoots are written about but there's no detailed story about them. They're writing it from scratch while introducing another non-cannon element that's just making a mess of things(meteor man). It's the kind of thing Tolkien showed time and time again that it would irritate him the most. The Hobbits do not have an origin story because there isn't one. Tolkien didn't forget about it. He didn't write it.

Who exactly is this show for I ask. As a fan of the books I'd rather know before hand what's going to happen in the show then get surprised every week with a new deviation.

For someone that has no knowledge about the books, they're non the wiser about anything. So they're actively changing what Tolkien wrote and the order of things. The hubris to think people will enjoy their story more than his own.

If there's a target audience for this show, it's the showrunners themselves. Basically, they're writing it for themselves, not for maintaining the spirit/letter of the lore, not for existing Tolkien fans, etc. Just going through interviews with the showrunners makes this patently obvious when anything that touches on straying from what's written (whether it's twisting/stretching the meaning or just creating stuff out of thin air) it's only done as a self-serving action. Amazon even saying they're trying to make the works of Tolkien more accessible is just ridiculous, considering how many languages Tolkien's works are printed in and how widely diverse the readers and fans of the franchise were and are before RoP was even a show pitch.

When it comes to the specific changes, I'm not sure what takes precedent in my mind. I suppose it comes down to either execution or intent of the changes. Harfoots are certainly a case of (as admitted by the showrunners) an addition because they're afraid normies won't know it's a Tolkien work without some form of Hobbit... which is kind of condescending, but considering their writing so far it evolves into something way worse. The Harfoots are very contradictory in their words and actions, whether that's intention or not doesn't really matter at this point. In essence, Harfoots are a case of where the execution and intent are both not good.

There's a bunch of other issues that are harder to talk about in a concise manner, but they all boil down to the intent and/or the execution are pretty bad. Even if we put intent aside, the execution of the writing, editing, etc. are very shoddy considering how much money is being thrown at this project. I heard from a little birdie on the inside (don't have to believe it, but don't be surprised when you start hearing about this in the future) that these productions are way more disorganized than most people probably realize. It's not just Amazon, this happens with Marvel/Disney... one just has to look at the behind-the-scenes and interviews with the content creators to see how widely disorganized and shoddy these productions tend to be when it comes to writing and execution. Expect more behind-the-scenes stuff to become known over time about RoP concerning these aspects, although some of it can be inferred from what's already out concerning the writing and what the actors talk about indicating issues with how the content was created.

Ultimately, the average viewer is probably going to notice something seems off with RoP, whether they're a Tolkien fan or not. If the writing and execution of RoP was done well and for the right reasons, RoP would naturally just be a massive success. However, from how Amazon was selling their product, you can tell immediately that Amazon themselves had very little faith in RoP before it even went live to the public. Turns out they were right, as even a normie with a slightly discerning eye for details will tend to notice that RoP is off in many aspects without any knowledge of the lore or what was happening behind-the-scenes. In the end, RoP is just a self-serving fan fiction of the creators with all the stereotypical pitfalls of a fanfic when it comes to dialogue/characters/etc., not a dedication to Tolkien or content created for Tolkien fans made in the spirit of Tolkien.

I knew it was going to happen, but Isildur even still felt out of left field with Numenor still kicking. It's disappointing that racists and sexists completely drowned out legitimate criticism of the timeline. I feel like if the community had been more focused, they may have taken some of it into consideration. Probably not, but one can dream.

To be fair, the racist/sexist angle is a marketing ploy that was perfected by Disney over the past few years and used by Amazon (and this has been done in politics for ages). It's kind of obvious when they put out stories about expect backlash due to racism/sexism well before the show is released while constantly talking up how talking up race and sex concerning their content. Basically, it's a method of controlling the narrative in an effort to deflect from real issue by using inflammatory rhetoric and non-issues. If you check out the reviews talking about what's wrong with RoP in the opinion of content creators, race and sex rarely if ever are mention as the writing and execution of RoP are the real issues. Unfortunately, when it comes to normies (like my wife), all they hear about all the stories of racism/sexism put out by the media outlets concerning RoP backlash... but even my wife noticed that there's no proof of it, just accusations. I'm sure there's a couple random people who have racist/sexist reasons to hate RoP, but they aren't the majority.

To get your wish, you'd have to change the paid media, not the people at the bottom fighting against the Amazon-bought media. That's not happening anytime soon, best you can hope for is people start seeing the paid media for what it is.

[Nyel]

Tolkien is the definition of generic fantasy.

I wouldn't compare the two shows besides heavy use of English accents and being in low tech worlds. Other than that you have two very different universes.

Not comparing the worlds, but what the writers made out of original material. In the case of Rings of Power, they failed basically with everything except the cinematography, besides the heavily recognizable CGI, which is jarring.

[tikcol]

In Tolkien’s own words “the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration, and in the intrusion of unwarranted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.”, and no one can truly say stuff like this isn’t exactly that.

I'll say this again just like I did for the other poster. Jackson's trilogy is not a perfect adaptation, but if you're trying to put it on the same level of blatant disrespect for Tolkien's work then you're not being honest about it and there's nothing more to discuss with you.

[bloodkin]

It's not an origin story, it doesn't explain what the Hobbit's first ancestors were like when they awoke in Hildorien, when they split
No what irritated him was making changes to stories he had spent a lot of time perfecting without artistic or technical reasons.

Say whatever you want, but to some this is exactly what is happening with this series. They make changes with little rime or reason which goes entirely against the careful and considerate crafting Tolkien himself employed.

Sure, some diehard Tolkien fans will enjoy it, that's fine. But personally I would've rather seen it differently. I also hate the fact that it's nearly impossible to criticise the series without it becoming political, this is the reason why I hate it when contemporary ideals as shoehorned in. There are more than enough different pieces of media that fit such messages far better without dilution it's story.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'll say this again just like I did for the other poster. Jackson's trilogy is not a perfect adaptation, but if you're trying to put it on the same level of blatant disrespect for Tolkien's work then you're not being honest about it and there's nothing more to discuss with you.

Sure and if you have to disregard Tolkien’s own words on what makes a bad adaptation to pretend that the Jackson movies didn’t disrespect Tolkien’s works and views your also not being honest.

[Adamas102]

But with a series centered around the forging around the Rings of power, one of the decisive points in the history of Tolkiens work, and the series named 'the Rings of Power', you know, I'd expect them to actually use what little is know about that period in Middle-Earths history and build around that, not changing events and characters by 2000 years because they need as many recognizable names and events as possible to draw people in.

The timelines that Tolkien set forth for many of the events in the Second Age are pretty ridiculous. I get that they're supposed to represent the sketch of an epic history, but they are completely unsuitable for adaptation to dramatic medium in their original form. Even if you wanted to make an anthology series where the time jumps happen between episodes, you'd have a lot of very boring episodes for isolated events that are too far removed from the overall stakes.

It took about 300 years from Sauron seducing the smiths of Eregion to when they begin forging the Rings of Power, and then almost 100 years for the rings to be completed, followed by a decade before Sauron completes The One Ring, and then another century before the War of the Elves and Sauron begins, which then lasts for almost 10 years. If you think any sort of dramatic tension could be maintained in a show or movie while trying to depict such vast stretches of time accurately then you're absolutely delusional.

The same goes for the end of Numenor: 80 years of civil war before Ar-Pharazon seizes power, 10 years before Sauron is captured, and another 50 years of him corrupting the Numenoreans, and then another 10 years before the downfall.

The one thing the should could have done (and I don't think it would have made things better) would have been to have each season cover only one set of isolated events (the Rings, the downfall of Numenor, etc). Even still, the timelines would have to be condensed to make for a decent narrative. And of course from a production standpoint you'd have entire casts, props, and sets that would only be used for a single season before being discarded. No, it's definitely better for the show that they take the key events and weave them together into a tighter narrative.

[tikcol]

Sure and if you have to disregard Tolkien’s own words on what makes a bad adaptation to pretend that the Jackson movies didn’t disrespect Tolkien’s works and views your also not being honest.

The exact same strawman as the last poster too. It's like I didn't write that Jackson's trilogy is not a perfect adaptation. Or as if I wrote that there's no disrespect for Tolkien's work in Jackson's trilogy.

That's how I'm sure I'm not dealing with a forthright individual.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The exact same strawman as the last poster too. It's like I didn't write that Jackson's trilogy is not a perfect adaptation. Or as if I wrote that there's no disrespect for Tolkien's work in Jackson's trilogy.

That's how I'm sure I'm not dealing with a forthright individual.

Really? Cause I was sure I wasn’t dealing with a forthright individual when you made Up the strawmen about me saying they had the “same level of blatant disrespect”.

Funny how that works.

[rhorle]

The exact same strawman as the last poster too. It's like I didn't write that Jackson's trilogy is not a perfect adaptation. Or as if I wrote that there's no disrespect for Tolkien's work in Jackson's trilogy.

Why is disrespect okay with Jackson works but not okay with Amazon? You brought it up as a Red Herring. It is something that you stated was terrible yet it ultimately doesn't matter because it will be over looked as long as the work hits whatever subjective metric to be considered good enough.

[tikcol]

Really? Cause I was sure I wasn’t dealing with a forthright individual when you made Up the strawmen about me saying they had the “same level of blatant disrespect”.

Funny how that works.

Might want to remember what you post next time

The Jackson movies destroyed any standards I would have had for grounded reasonable fight choreography, so going hard into the camp is fine with me I don’t really expect any thing else from the franchise at this point.

Also, don't pretend to care what Tolkien thought about any of this when you haven't read the material you're watching an adaptation of

And I have literally no feeling towards Galadriel because of the books or movies I’m
Not a big fan of the Jackson movies and I’ve only read the the hobbit and first Lotr Books.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Might want to remember what you post next time

So you think the changes to Gimli or other characters are fight choreography? That saying they are on the same level when it comes to fights means they are on the same level in every other aspects?

Or is that just you continuing to be dishonest?

Also, don't pretend to care what Tolkien thought about any of this when you haven't read the material you're watching an adaptation of

I don’t need to have read the Silmarillion to point out that the Jackson movies did exactly what Tolkien said was an adaptions failings, the hobbit and the first book alone (and common knowledge) puts that on full display.

[Heathy]

I think some ppl will always be upset that it isn't Tolkien himself directing the show. no matter how faithful this managed to be, there will always be something to complain about. to me middle earth is no different to the forgotten realms, its a setting to tell stories, I don't feel compelled to defend some sort of gospel purity. so long as the main plot drivers make sense and take place when they should the cannon shit is full of plot holes and inconsistencies if ppl wanted to be super pedantic about it. the minor details are just that, you can have any number of stories take place between major plot arcs. some liberty has to be taken in order to tell this story in a cohesive way. luckily for those making this, they know where they have to get to, so its just a matter of making the story so that it gets there. whatever major plot points that Tolkien wrote about but didn't go into much detail on obviously have to be more elaborate when you're turning it into a show or movie. I know some of the things he wrote were deliberately vague as to be more like a forgotten history with not many surviving details. at some point they were going to have to expand on the points that were largely ambiguous or vague to be able to tell the story. turning a collection of myths and legends into one continual story. knowing that what he wrote was always changing and incomplete isn't really free reign to do what you want. but if someone wants to come along and try to piece together a story from what was written and fill in the blanks as best as possible. thats the best that anyone is going to get beyond the man rising from the dead and finishing it himself. the levels of over scrupulous standards, do ppl call the mans son's edits fan fiction? where do ppl draw the line exactly. can no one contribute to this universe or try to tell a story in it without the blessing of someone whos now dead? its like ppl complaining that their D&D campaign isn't canon, who cares? is the story interesting even to casual fans? thats what matters. can someone who has seen LoTR follow this, thats what matters. thats obviously what they were going for. translating litrary works into film isn't always that clear, you can have chapters of a book blown past in 5 to 10 minutes and you can have a chapters that spend 20 minutes discussing the decor of a hallway. there obviously has to be some sort of consistency. the idea of a picture saying a thousand word and what that means to the story telling.

[tikcol]

So you think the changes to Gimli or other characters are fight choreography? That saying they are on the same level when it comes to fights means they are on the same level in every other aspects?

Or is that just you continuing to be dishonest?


I don’t need to have read the Silmarillion to point out that the Jackson movies did exactly what Tolkien said was an adaptions failings, the hobbit and the first book alone puts that’s on full display.

This whole "But what about Jackson" is just a big distraction. This is a thread about Rings of Power. Why not create a thread about the Jackson movies and go talk there about how lame they are?

You can continue to ramble for a few pages and point out the Jackson movies every time someone legitimately criticizes RoP but people will just continue not to take you seriously.

I'll say this again and this is the last reply you'll get from me. The Jackson movies are not perfect and do have problems of their own regarding adaptation considerations.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This whole "But what about Jackson" is just a big distraction. This is a thread about Rings of Power. Why not create a thread about the Jackson movies and go talk there about how lame they are?

You can continue to ramble for a few pages and point out the Jackson movies every time someone legitimately criticizes RoP but people will just continue not to take you seriously.

I'll say this again and this is the last reply you'll get from me. The Jackson movies are not a perfect and do have problems of their own regarding adaptation considerations.

Sure the Jackson’s movies are just a distraction, obviously talking about the franchise has no relevance at all and you aren’t at all trying to distract from your own dishonest behaviours after trying to pretend that me saying the fight choreography was about the same means the two adaptations are the same on all levels.

[Askyl]

Rings of Power must be the biggest proof yet Ragebait campagns on YouTube and Facebook is solid gold for content creators.

They literally made a bunch of people pretend to be fans of Tolkien and defend Tolkiens "honor" and review bomb the shit out of it.

Hilarious.

Its no way near perfect. But it is quite beautiful and it will be a fun adaptation. I do think they would have gone of better with dropping the entire season, or maybe in 2 parts like they did stranger things. So far I love everything except Galadriel, feel like they made her a bit Gen Z-ish. Hopefully she will grow. Still decent.


Hopefully the show is successful to the point Tolkien Estate reconcider their tight grip on Silmarillion and the Lost tales rights.

A 1st age trilogy is the dream.

[tikcol]

Rings of Power must be the biggest proof yet Ragebait campagns on YouTube and Facebook is solid gold for content creators.

They literally made a bunch of people pretend to be fans of Tolkien and defend Tolkiens "honor" and review bomb the shit out of it.

Hilarious.

Its no way near perfect. But it is quite beautiful and it will be a fun adaptation. I do think they would have gone of better with dropping the entire season, or maybe in 2 parts like they did stranger things. So far I love everything except Galadriel, feel like they made her a bit Gen Z-ish. Hopefully she will grow. Still decent.


Hopefully the show is successful to the point Tolkien Estate reconcider their tight grip on Silmarillion and the Lost tales rights.

A 1st age trilogy is the dream.

One could argue that the author of one of the best-selling book series of all time, translated into 50 different languages would have, in fact, a lot of fans.

This narrative on the other hand that people that give it low scores are trolls though, doesn't hold up to scrutiny very well when you put a meager amount of thought into it.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one. In this case and to put it bluntly, the show is just bad. There's no conspiracy.

[Dhrizzle]

So now that's he's dead you get to pick and choose and change what was written because he kept changing things up until his death? That's not very honest.

Erm, no? Because he expressed a desire to create a mythos with gaps for others to fill it's okay to fill those gaps, and as much of that mythos was in flux it isn't bad to interpret it in other ways.

It is an origin story in the sense that's we're getting glimpses of the the Hobbit philosophy in the 3rd age of not getting involved with the "outside world" and that adventures are non-sense.

We're also not seeing the origin of that, not getting involved is already part of their ethos and it matches what little we do know of the ancestral Hobbits. An origin would be showing them before they started avoiding other peoples and the events that made them change.

That's what you just made up. It's a very skewed interpretation of the quote to fit this whole narrative of yours and you know it.

No, that's the very clear impression you get if you read the whole letter instead of cherry-picking a few quotes from it.

Besides.. he did put a lot of time perfecting what is written. Be it published or not. If you do not want to view it that way then that's your problem.

It's a pretty common consensus that he was nowhere near perfecting the broader history of Arda. His notes show that vast swathes of what was released as the Silmarillion would have to be rewritten, not least because he wanted Arda to be round from the beginning with the Sun and Moon always existing.

RoP is not representing Tolkien's work, characters or events. So no, it isn't for fans of Tolkien.

Well it is so it is.