1. #4621
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah, maybe read more than a quarter of my posts instead of selectively quoting tangential points you're more comfortable engaging with and then I will write a response to your argument
    You continually are not writing a response to my arguments. You further deflect in saying it is my problem when this is entirely on your end. At least own up to you no longer wanting to engage. A person doesn't always have to word for word refute an argument in order to point out its failings. You've continually missed the mark on everything to do with the discussion and refuse to now engage on anything unless it accepts your words as undisputed facts. Strange, right?

    I've never refused to answer a single thing you've asked. You just haven't liked the answers you were given. Stop putting this on me when you are the only one refusing things here. Your last post didn't even include a question yet you still accuse me of not answering Lol. While you explain where the question was in that post maybe follow its advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Mate, if you won't bother replying to the actual content of my posts don't click on reply.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-11 at 10:08 PM.
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  2. #4622
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    There is a reason these changes are primarily happening to works that the author is dead and can't object.
    Hasn't this only happened like twice with LoTR and wheel of time? While we have also had, the Witcher, sandman, tons of marvel movies, Game of thrones/HoD, and likely a few more.

    The idea that they are targeting franchises with dead author's seems like a load of nonsense.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #4623
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It was refreshing that they didn't hyper-focus on how they chose to have racial inclusion or women in main roles in this show. I think it worked decently.

    I got irked by the Brandyfoot sisters mother being dark skinned while they weren't, but looking into it apparently she is their stepmother. I must've missed where they mention that, but that explanation works for me.
    .
    Indeed, when a production is great, we usually don't care at all that women are focused on or racial inclusion - i mean we may be sick of how they are all doing it, but at the end of the day, omen can be great and there are other ethnicities around.

    it wasn't that woke either. Galadriel, like she is written and portrayed doesn't carry this show to the heights, i have heard it mentioned in circles that if we had a more charismatic actress or main cast, it could have been a different story - I'm not so sure, the way they wrote Galadriel is also a huge part of why this fails, but then a charismatic actor tends to change how characters are written, because they just bring an excellent version that is just impossible to turn away for a worse version in the original script. or they bring out the best bits.

    I did not like Galadriel being picked on by the other children elves in the beginning - that felt very un elf like - and i often wonder if there was more to the scene than to set her up as an angry man longing to prove herself -a s if she's some human twenty something year old, instead of part of a race of very wise and immortal beings that would certainly have very different and far better standards. Whiles you could say elves could be have like that, it doesn't fit the race, but it's there to set up this female character's motivations and it's just all wrong - that's not the Noldor high elves, nor Galadriel as Tolkien would present them.

    But then I saw the same in wow, and use to praise tolkien's LotR for how you correctly portray immortal wise beings - these writers seem to simply forget they made them another race that is immortal and extremely wise, - why not exemplify that in your early example - because they have to set Galadriel as angry man-woman - and it just doesn't work..

  4. #4624
    So far in this series there have been numerous egregious changes to the lore and those changes aren't really adding up to anything compelling. And really most of this series is nothing but made up characters, invented by Amazon, surrounded by a bunch of weird mysteries and no singular main plot or story. So it is all over the place in that sense and none of those story lines in and of themselves are really important to the big picture which should be obvious by 3 episodes in. And this is where people begin to jump ship because it becomes tedious and uninteresting to follow these separate narratives that aren't leading to anything that anybody cares about in Tolkien or are interesting in their own right.

    1. Where is Sauron
    2. Who is Meteor Man
    3. Who is Halbrand
    4. What is this mark Galadriel found
    5. What is in the dwarven box
    6. Who is Theo's father
    7. Where is Tar Palantir and why is he in exile
    8. Who are the faithful
    9. What is the sword handed to Elendil
    10. Who is Adar
    11. Who are the 3 mysterious people
    12. What is this constellation shown by meteor man
    13. Why are the Elves and Numenor not on good terms
    14. and so on


    And this show just keeps adding more questions and not answering any of them.

  5. #4625
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And this show just keeps adding more questions and not answering any of them.
    Realistically how many shows answer all of those questions in the first 3 episodes?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  6. #4626
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Can we get a thread for people who actually want to discuss the show without a bunch of people getting offended about their head canon?

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  7. #4627
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post


    And this show just keeps adding more questions and not answering any of them.
    ...it's 3 episodes into a 9 episode season. You're essentially whining that you don't have all the answers by the end of the first act in a three-act movie. That's absolutely ridiculous.

    Nevermind any setting up they to for potential future seasons.

  8. #4628
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Realistically how many shows answer all of those questions in the first 3 episodes?
    No other show is this show so the question doesn't make sense.

  9. #4629
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    ...it's 3 episodes into a 9 episode season. You're essentially whining that you don't have all the answers by the end of the first act in a three-act movie. That's absolutely ridiculous.

    Nevermind any setting up they to for potential future seasons.
    *8 episodes. If rumors are to be believed we won't get many answers this seasons sadly, not even any of the big events.
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  10. #4630
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    No other show is this show so the question doesn't make sense.
    There are unanswered questions from Lost and it had 6 seasons. Shows don't always reveal everything in the first 3 episodes in or in the episode that the question is first raised in. It will blow your mind to learn of the term "Cliff Hanger".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #4631
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    ...it's 3 episodes into a 9 episode season. You're essentially whining that you don't have all the answers by the end of the first act in a three-act movie. That's absolutely ridiculous.

    Nevermind any setting up they to for potential future seasons.
    This story isn't that complex. These meandering side stories and mysteries are not building some kind of interesting or compelling story at least for me. Some people may care but I really don't because the show hasn't given me a reason to. And this has absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien vs just basic story telling.

    For example, there should be no mystery at this point that Sauron is present. Sylvan elves have been captured and killed. Other Sylvan elves should be aware of this. Adar should not be a mystery to any elf as such a thing would be well known among the elves that one of their own sided with Sauron openly and not due to deception. The purpose and reason for the meteor man should be obvious by now because these Maiar are basically like angels and can talk. No reason why we shouldn't know who he is and what he is doing by now. So a lot of this just becomes filler and distracts from the ultimate point which is the confrontation with Sauron. Not to mention nobody else mentions this meteor even though many of the main characters saw it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There are unanswered questions from Lost and it had 6 seasons. Shows don't always reveal everything in the first 3 episodes in or in the episode that the question is first raised in. It will blow your mind to learn of the term "Cliff Hanger".
    Lost was designed to be a story that had a long series of unfolding questions. It was relatively unique. Most television series are not written like that. Episodic TV definitely doesn't do that as each episode resolves any questions or mysteries before it ends.

    This show is called Rings of Power. It is supposed to be telling us about how the rings of power got created by Sauron. There isn't any real mystery to that as everyone knows the story if they have seen Lord of the Rings or read the LOTR books. Technically that is a single story line unto itself and could fill multiple seasons without all this other stuff.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-11 at 10:48 PM.

  12. #4632
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There are unanswered questions from Lost and it had 6 seasons. Shows don't always reveal everything in the first 3 episodes in or in the episode that the question is first raised in. It will blow your mind to learn of the term "Cliff Hanger".
    Your words make sense, but don't you think it is a very nifty trick for both defenders and showrunners to refute all the critique?
    Take the Halo series for example: its chockfull of so-called cliffhangers.
    Does it mean we should patiently wait for s2, or does it mean the plot was utter garbage and the scriptwriter was an incompetent senile potato?

  13. #4633
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Galadriel, like she is written and portrayed doesn't carry this show to the heights, i have heard it mentioned in circles that if we had a more charismatic actress or main cast, it could have been a different story - I'm not so sure, the way they wrote Galadriel is also a huge part of why this fails, but then a charismatic actor tends to change how characters are written, because they just bring an excellent version that is just impossible to turn away for a worse version in the original script. or they bring out the best bits.

    I did not like Galadriel being picked on by the other children elves in the beginning - that felt very un elf like - and i often wonder if there was more to the scene than to set her up as an angry man longing to prove herself -a s if she's some human twenty something year old, instead of part of a race of very wise and immortal beings that would certainly have very different and far better standards. Whiles you could say elves could be have like that, it doesn't fit the race, but it's there to set up this female character's motivations and it's just all wrong - that's not the Noldor high elves, nor Galadriel as Tolkien would present them.

    But then I saw the same in wow, and use to praise tolkien's LotR for how you correctly portray immortal wise beings - these writers seem to simply forget they made them another race that is immortal and extremely wise, - why not exemplify that in your early example - because they have to set Galadriel as angry man-woman - and it just doesn't work..
    This reviewer actually liked the show in general, but disliked Galadriel's portrayal thus far. Again, I think that Clark should have portrayed a female human character, perhaps even the Queen of Numenor (the only female human I recall seeing at this point), but not Galadriel.

    With Galadriel setup as the show’s primary protagonist and five seasons planned, I admit I’m starting to worry. There’s much to love about Rings Of Power and the third episode had plenty that I enjoyed, but I’m really concerned that Galadriel will sink the ship if major changes aren’t made to her character—and it might simply be too late for that. Which is a shame. Once again, a massively expensive, beautifully shot TV show is slipping because despite all that money, the writing quality just isn’t there.

    I’m still enjoying The Rings Of Power, and the massive campaign against it is silly and largely manufactured by people who made up their minds long before it ever came out. Lamentations that it is somehow overly-woke or agenda driven are clearly contrived and enormously nonsensical. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t legitimate problems with the show and Galadriel, unfortunately, is one of them. Hopefully that changes.

    P.S. No, I’m not suggesting that Galadriel smile more. I only brought up her moment of smiling because the slow-motion scene was so jarring. Galadriel is always very stony-faced in this show, and then suddenly we have this agonizingly long shot of her grinning ear to pointy ear. I think the problem is more about how they’ve written her to be so headstrong and brash that she lacks other basic social skills like diplomacy, patience and so forth, that could make her feel like a more well-rounded and convincing character.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...driel-problem/
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  14. #4634
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    This show is called Rings of Power. It is supposed to be telling us about how the rings of power got created by Sauron. There isn't any real mystery to that as everyone knows the story if they have seen Lord of the Rings or read the LOTR books. Technically that is a single story line unto itself and could fill multiple seasons without all this other stuff.
    Lol. So if the story of how the rings were created is known wouldn't a show having nothing to tell? There are a lot of blanks in Tolkiens work because he only told the story of a specific time and left the rest up to "trivia" about people, places, and things. There would still be questions unanswered even if they tell it like you say because we would be learning things as they happen.

    Weird that the same criticism would exist but you accept one over the other.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fortress of Arrogance View Post
    Your words make sense, but don't you think it is a very nifty trick for both defenders and showrunners to refute all the critique?
    A trick? No. It is just the way things work. Sometimes things get answered quickly and other times they do not. It has no relevance to the plot being utter garbage or the greatest thing ever. Even books do this as different plot threads come and go. I'm not talking about terrible books either as Wheel of Time, for example, has some things that get left unanswered. It just happens.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  15. #4635
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Lol. So if the story of how the rings were created is known wouldn't a show having nothing to tell? There are a lot of blanks in Tolkiens work because he only told the story of a specific time and left the rest up to "trivia" about people, places, and things. There would still be questions unanswered even if they tell it like you say because we would be learning things as they happen.

    Weird that the same criticism would exist but you accept one over the other.
    Most television shows are able to tell single stories quite fine over multiple seasons. This isn't new or original at all. What is happening here is they are mixing and matching other stuff from Tolkien's second age with their own made up characters and stories, producing a convoluted narrative. And the 'mysteries' are just to make these new narratives seem important when they really aren't.

  16. #4636
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You continually are not writing a response to my arguments. You further deflect in saying it is my problem when this is entirely on your end. At least own up to you no longer wanting to engage. A person doesn't always have to word for word refute an argument in order to point out its failings. You've continually missed the mark on everything to do with the discussion and refuse to now engage on anything unless it accepts your words as undisputed facts. Strange, right?

    I've never refused to answer a single thing you've asked. You just haven't liked the answers you were given. Stop putting this on me when you are the only one refusing things here. Your last post didn't even include a question yet you still accuse me of not answering Lol.
    I'm not sure if you're trolling or just being wilfully obtuse. By last posts I obviously meant the last posts that were still dedicated to the argument. You've deliberately cropped the questions out of your quotes and refused to address them. Why would you lie about this when anyone can just go back and read it?
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  17. #4637
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I'm not sure if you're trolling or just being wilfully obtuse. By last posts I obviously meant the last posts that were still dedicated to the argument.
    So not your last post. Strange how you insult me when it was you who stated something incorrectly. Again you show that the problem is entirely on you. I kept discussing the topic while you brought it off topic. I haven't lied about anything and I didn't "crop the questions out". You don't have to include the entire post in a quote and it gets quite lengthy to keep it in when a smaller quote works just as well.

    You choose to no longer offer rebuttals to my argument and instead focus on me. You continue to blame me instead of yourself for your own posts. Imagine thinking that I control you and are forcing you to no longer discuss the topic.

    The amusing part is I did actually answer your questions. You just choose to rage about me the poster rather then engage in the answer you clearly didn't like.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Wait. Do you honestly think that insults have to have a basis in heritage, social standing, or anything else of that nature? That it can't just exist as an insult because someone decided to say it? Did you even look over the list of ethnic slurs I provided? Because most of those became insults because X about Y was used by people in an insulting manner. Not all have some deeper meaning or requirement in order to be a slur/insult. There isn't a power balance required in a slur. Only an insulting one used to separate a group from others.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Most television shows are able to tell single stories quite fine over multiple seasons. This isn't new or original at all. What is happening here is they are mixing and matching other stuff from Tolkien's second age with their own made up characters and stories, producing a convoluted narrative. And the 'mysteries' are just to make these new narratives seem important when they really aren't.
    Right. Some shows do it well and others do not. This stemmed from you saying all shows. Don't move the goal posts and deflect from the parts where you were wrong. Amazon went with a compressed time line so they could keep the same cast of characters through out the entire 5 seasons. Given the life span of elves and the events of the show only elves would be able to be kept the entire show.

    Could that have worked better? Maybe. Yet it would still could leave unanswered questions and even less time to answer them. For example the Human actors could only be on for one season or maybe even one episode depending on "Time skips" that occur.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-11 at 11:25 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #4638
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    So it is all over the place in that sense and none of those story lines in and of themselves are really important to the big picture which should be obvious by 3 episodes in.
    That's kind of the crux of the matter. They can't really be important because if they were, Tolkien would have written about them himself. So the best they can hope to achieve is to add some sort of new framing to already established events while hoping that these ultimately inconsequential story lines are interesting enough in their own right (which they usually aren't). That is why adapting this sort of vague history is a very difficult task especially when you don't even have the rights to all of the source material. You basically get all of the downsides of an adaptation (lore constraints, predetermined story outcomes) but none of the upsides that could provide some sort guidance (detailed character arcs, dramatization of events etc.). Complete lose-lose situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The amusing part is I did actually answer your questions. You just choose to rage about me the poster rather then engage in the answer you clearly didn't like.
    It's kind of funny that you seriously think this constitutes an answer. Way to completely miss the mark. I'm asking you again: what do you think a racial epithet supposed to express? What makes an innocent sounding term like "American Born Chinese" a potential slur? What is the semantic content?
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2022-09-11 at 11:41 PM.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  19. #4639
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's kind of funny that you seriously think this constitutes an answer. Way to completely miss the mark. I'm asking you again: what do you think a racial epithet supposed to express? What makes an innocent sounding term like "American Born Chinese" a potential slur? What is the semantic content?
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Wait. Do you honestly think that insults have to have a basis in heritage, social standing, or anything else of that nature? That it can't just exist as an insult because someone decided to say it? Did you even look over the list of ethnic slurs I provided? Because most of those became insults because X about Y was used by people in an insulting manner. Not all have some deeper meaning or requirement in order to be a slur/insult. There isn't a power balance required in a slur. Only an insulting one used to separate a group from others.
    I'm not missing any mark. I'm answering your questions but you don't like it. A racial slur, like any insult, is supposed to express something about a group that is used as an insult. There doesn't have to be a tie to heritage. Pointy-ears is enough of difference to be an insult. Cracker was used as a ethnic slur against white immigrants because a certain ethnicity was to loud. It also has roots in the sound of the whip a slave owner/driver used.

    American Born Chinese is a slur because it was decided by X group to be a bad thing. So ABC is used as an insult by some. The only one continually missing marks is yourself who keeps trying to tie "Knife-ears" only to dragon age because of the culture of elves in that video game. It isn't their culture from Dragon Age that is being remarked on but the point on their ears.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #4640
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I don't know about that. Did anyone ever watch GoT and think "wow this looks cheap"?

    And for the record, I don't think RoP looks cheap. Perhaps not the quality of ~90 million USD an episode, but definitely not cheap.
    Well yeah that's the thing. The guy I replied to literally is saying this looks cheap so yes, there are people saying that for this series.

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