1. #4701
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Every one but Galadriel think he's long gone/dead and not threat while she thinks he's getting ready for a return.
    That makes absolutely no fucking sense and is an egregious retcon of the source material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    ...what? The same exact way he would have been "just a memory" during the period after his defeat by the Last Alliance. People thought he was gone for good...until he wasn't.
    No. People did NOT think he was gone for good because it was known that Sauron escaped when Morgoth was yeeted into the Outer Void.

  2. #4702
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    How is Sauron but a memory when this show is supposed to take place during his rise to power?
    Because everyone thought he was gone but he really wasn't? You know just like Voldemort in Harry Potter? Or any number of Villans that stay "hidden" until they are ready to reveal themselves? Tolkien stated he was defeated, plead for mercy after Morgoth was defeated, but ultimately fled. He fled because he didn't want to face the judgement of the Valar. That was at the end of the first age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That makes absolutely no fucking sense and is an egregious retcon of the source material.
    It is not. He fled in the source material and wasn't seen from again for a long time. He wasn't an active threat for a long time and by the time he started to become a threat he already had his hands on manipulating Elves and Men. Remember he instigated the forging of the Rings of Power and secretly forged the One Ring. It wasn't until he put it on that he was revealed to be back.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  3. #4703
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Every one but Galadriel think he's long gone/dead and not threat while she thinks he's getting ready for a return.
    I mean this doesn't work when we have Gil-Galad saying we know there is a danger out there, but her poking it could make it grow or whatever he technically said. Obviously he is aware of a threat but he refuses to engage it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  4. #4704
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I mean this doesn't work when we have Gil-Galad saying we know there is a danger out there, but her poking it could make it grow or whatever he technically said. Obviously he is aware of a threat but he refuses to engage it.
    It does if he was being manipulated by Annatar (Sauron). It was Gil-Galad, on the show at least, who introduced Elrond to Celebrimbor for a special project. Tolkien states that Sauron gave the knowledge on how to forge the rings to the elves. So he already would have had to be influencing the elves during those scenes of the show. Remember the watch posts were being recalled so someone was doing Sauron a favor.

    Even then it doesn't have to mean that he was aware of Sauron. Only aware that some servants of Morgoth likely remained somewhere.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2022-09-13 at 11:58 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #4705
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    I feel like a broken record, but if this is the case, why even bother watching at all? Just so you can complain a little more thoroughly? Its like punishing yourself for no real reason than to hate. Why not watch something that may actually engage your brain a little?
    Why does it bother you that I complain about something? You kinda asked

    I've explained myself quite a bit here that I enjoy the show. I think Galadriel's story is the weakest part of the show though, and it's a real drag that it's been so plagued with nonsense considering it should be the most interesting part of the show, yet nothing about it really works. I can only enjoy it on a surface level, when I first watch, having turned my brain off for all of her adventures. And even then, there are unavoidable cringe moments, like the slow mo horse riding, that just stand out.

    Like some of the best things to come out of this show are the Elrond and Dwarf scenes, which I actually think works very well for the show and as an expansion of the universe. Things make sense and I have little complaint for it. I really love Elrond's arc, and I'd love to see more of it.

    All the while, every part of Galadriel's arc is full of stuff that makes little sense or things that feel out of place, and it's hard to ignore when they're intentionally focusing on her arc as the feature plotline of the series. All my criticisms come from a place of wanting and hoping this show to improve, and otherwise pointing at stuff that doesn't work for me and just sharing my two cents in a discussion forum otherwise. And if people are going to blanketly assume and misunderstand reasons why I think something doesn't work, I'd just as well respond as well.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 12:11 AM.

  6. #4706
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That makes absolutely no fucking sense and is an egregious retcon of the source material.
    Doesn't he get all of the rings forged and sent out because no one actually knows that he's still active and then flips the "I'm evil" switch with the one ring causing all kinds of unforeseen problems?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I mean this doesn't work when we have Gil-Galad saying we know there is a danger out there, but her poking it could make it grow or whatever he technically said. Obviously he is aware of a threat but he refuses to engage it.
    There can/are be dangers other then Sauron, hell GG might think she's gonna start a diplomatic incident like she almost does with Númenor.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-09-13 at 11:59 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #4707
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Doesn't he get all of the rings forged and sent out because no one actually knows that he's still active and then flips the "I'm evil" switch with the one ring causing all kinds of unforeseen problems?

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    There can/are be dangers other then Sauron, hell GG might think she's gonna start a diplomatic innocent like she almost does with Númenor.
    Thing is it is known Sauron lived, and we have the conversation between Gil-Galad and Elrond about sending Galadriel away before she awakens an evil RIGHT AFTER she gives a report about finding Saurons symbol/mark in the north. So when you have him say she was sent away to stop evil from growing after he is told Sauron is around, I mean all signs point towards him knowing Sauron is fucking around.

    As for the rings, the dwarf and human rings, yes, the Elven rings he is aware of but has no direct connection too, which is why the Elven wearers didn't turn evil/get corrupted in the way the dwarfs did. They just had to be careful as Sauron could sense them when they had the rings on/used them (don't recall which it is).
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  8. #4708
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    As for the rings, the dwarf and human rings, yes, the Elven rings he is aware of but has no direct connection too, which is why the Elven wearers didn't turn evil/get corrupted in the way the dwarfs did. They just had to be careful as Sauron could sense them when they had the rings on/used them (don't recall which it is).
    Sauron never got a hold of the elven rings. They were not stolen when Eregion was sacked and thus protected from him.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #4709
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Thing is it is known Sauron lived, and we have the conversation between Gil-Galad and Elrond about sending Galadriel away before she awakens an evil RIGHT AFTER she gives a report about finding Saurons symbol/mark in the north. So when you have him say she was sent away to stop evil from growing after he is told Sauron is around, I mean all signs point towards him knowing Sauron is fucking around.
    They almost mention though that were she found the mark could be who knows how many years old and its repeated a few times that the general consensus is that he's dead/gone for good. GG could just think that Galadriel's meddling will bring a dragon or something else down on them given that Sauron wasn't the toughest guy around and could have just died to something better then him that they don't want to mess with like a angry Dog or a really good singers or some other guy who beat him up in the lore.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  10. #4710
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    They almost mention though that were she found the mark could be who knows how many years old and its repeated a few times that the general consensus is that he's dead/gone for good. GG could just think that Galadriel's meddling will bring a dragon or something else down on them given that Sauron wasn't the toughest guy around and could have just died to something better then him that they don't want to mess with like a angry Dog or a really good singers or some other guy who beat him up in the lore.
    Mate are you really down playing Sauron, the #2 of Morgoth, a Maiar, that much? Could have died to something better than him and not mess with like an angry dog? How can you actually write that? Please stop responding for a bit and rethink what you just typed for a while.

    He killed Gil-Galad and Elendil in solo combat, like yes he wasn't a titan of the battlefield like Ungoliant or Galurung, or Gothmog, but he was still a fearsome foe in combat, which isn't even his area of expertise.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2022-09-14 at 12:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  11. #4711
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Mate are you really down playing Sauron, the #2 of Morgoth, a Maiar, that much? Could have died to something better than him and not mess with like an angry dog? How can you actually write that? Please stop responding for a bit and rethink what you just typed for a while.
    Sauron was defeated by a wolfhound which is an actual angry "dog" lol. While yes it was a "special" one it still shows that something else in the world could have defeated him. Or he just could have never come back after fleeing judgement.
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  12. #4712
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Mate are you really down playing Sauron, the #2 of Morgoth, a Maiar, that much? Could have died to something better than him and not mess with like an angry dog? How can you actually write that? Please stop responding for a bit and rethink what you just typed for a while.
    Nan man angry dog's are a force to be wrecking with.
    Huan was originally a Hound of Oromë in Valinor and was eventually given to Celegorm, Fëanor's third son. He went into exile with his master during the Flight of the Ñoldor. He might have stayed with his master in Himlad and later fled with him to Nargothrond after their defeat in the Dagor Bragollach.[3]

    He became involved with the Quest for the Silmaril. When Beren had left Lúthien and gone with Finrod Felagund to Angband but had been captured in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Lúthien set out to rescue him. She was intercepted by Celegorm and Curufin, who were living in Nargothrond at the time and were hunting. Huan smelt Lúthien and captured her, and she was brought before Celegorm. Celegorm and Curufin did not reveal to her that they had sent Beren to his death by the hand of Sauron, and took her as a prisoner to Nargothrond, "for her own protection", secretly plotting to wed her to Celegorm and thereby force an alliance with Lúthien's father Thingol.[2]

    Huan felt pity for Lúthien, and sought her out. Speaking for the first time, he told her of a way to escape, using a secret exit,[4] and then accompanied her to Tol-in-Gaurhoth[5] where, with the help of Lúthien's magic, he killed all of Sauron's werewolves until Sauron himself came out, knowing of the prophesy about Huan's death he took the shape of the greatest wolf that had ever lived up to that point. Huan nevertheless managed to defeat him, and Sauron was forced to flee.
    https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Huan
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #4713
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Nan man angry dog's are a force to be wrecking with.


    https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Huan
    I mean now you are downplaying Huan, not a fucking dog but a great wolfhound created by THE GREAT HUNTSMAN OF THE VALAR HIMSELF. You and Rhole love to throw some shit on some posts downplaying anything you disagree with and cropping up some random 1 lines without context to prop up whatever BS you want to toss out next.

    Like seriously saying Gil-Galad just ignores the #2 of Morgoth, I just need to stop reading things you post like Rhole, you obviously don't care about Tolkien and are just here to fight other people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  14. #4714
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    I mean now you are downplaying Huan, not a fucking dog but a great wolfhound created by THE GREAT HUNTSMAN OF THE VALAR HIMSELF. You and Rhole love to shit on some terrible posts downplaying anything you disagree with and cropping up some random 1 lines without context to prop up whatever BS you want to toss out next.

    Like seriously saying Gil-Galad just ignores the #2 of Morgoth, I just need to stop reading things you post like Rhole, you obviously don't care about Tolkien and are just here to fight other people.
    A wolfhound is in fact a Dog, and while Huan might be a rare good boy he still proves the point that Sauron isn't the end all be all and could have been put down in his years of absence.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #4715
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    A wolfhound is in fact a Dog, and while Huan might be a rare good boy he still proves the point that Sauron isn't the end all be all and could have been put down in his years of absence.
    Might be rare? Mother fucker is literally one of a kind made by a lesser god, that is like saying though Arda might be rare it is still just a giant sphere. It is beyond disingenuous, and acting like Sauron is so fucking easy to kill, guess that is why he lived through 2 ages and nearly conquered the lanes of man twice, so easy you could do it on a trip to the market. So easy I am sure an alliance of all the elves and humans could easily wipe him out without losing a single troop, much less two legends like Gil-Galad or Elendil, so crap even Morgoth didn't want to promote past 2nd in charge.

    Guess Tolkien was just some dude that wrote things down too right? Don't bother to respond to me, cause I won't be looking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  16. #4716
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Might be rare? Mother fucker is literally one of a kind made by a lesser god, that is like saying though Arda might be rare it is still just a giant sphere. It is beyond disingenuous, and acting like Sauron is so fucking easy to kill, guess that is why he lived through 2 ages and nearly conquered the lanes of man twice, so easy you could do it on a trip to the market. So easy I am sure an alliance of all the elves and humans could easily wipe him out without losing a single troop, much less two legends like Gil-Galad or Elendil, so crap even Morgoth didn't want to promote past 2nd in charge.

    Guess Tolkien was just some dude that wrote things down too right? Don't bother to respond to me, cause I won't be looking.
    Sauron was beaten by elf's and men and then destroyed by them and hobbits(as well as having a list of prior defeats), He didn't survive 2 ages by being the biggest baddest guy around, but if you want to rant about a rare good boy instead of actually acknowledge that there are forces that could have killed him before the rings were made and there were more high tier players around, go off queen I can't stop you.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #4717
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    All you appear to have is hate and handwaving because things don't fit what you want. Who has time for someone like that, someone that literally just exists to give misery some company?
    Well yeah because you don't read all my messages, and frankly with the way discussions actually work here, people have more back-and-forth discussions over things to argue over than things to share interest about.

    I enjoy the show, and I watch it week to week because I like it. I've even said before here that Elrond and the Dwarf arc is my favourite part of the series. I even updated my message above since I did feel my original response to you was overly defensive. At any rate, the reasons for my criticisms aren't an expression of hate, but an expression of disappointment that this show isn't as good as I think it should be. And it really should be riding on high standards considering the amount of time and money being put into the project.

    It's just disappointing that Galadriel is such an unrelatable character. Nothing to the actress who I think is doing great with the material she's given. It's really down to the production value overall. The scripts, the narrative focus, the characterization, the pacing... Everything feels off. And it's very easy to nitpick when the rest of the show looks pretty darn good.

    If this show was better put together, I'd be happy to sing its praises. Otherwise, my expression of things I think are wrong or don't work or don't like aren't really a matter of hating the show, but that I think it could be and should be better.

    As for hand-waving things that don't fit, I don't see what the problem is with that. I didn't like the Star Wars sequels (mostly after Last Jedi) and I would just as much express my criticisms and comments about how it doesn't work for me. Other people can enjoy it as they please, but it wouldn't stop me from expressing and explaining my opinions if people simple say 'The movies make sense, I don't get what people are complaining about'. Well, a big part of why don't love the movies is because there are many things that I think just don't work, and don't fit what I want, and I wouldn't really be speaking on other people's behalf when I express my own opinion on the matter would I?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 01:39 AM.

  18. #4718
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Like seriously saying Gil-Galad just ignores the #2 of Morgoth, I just need to stop reading things you post like Rhole, you obviously don't care about Tolkien and are just here to fight other people.
    Again, he could be influenced by Sauron as we know he befriended the elves. For a person that claims to care about tolkien you've been making several incorrect statements about lore then turn to insults when it gets pointed out. Focus less on the posters and more on Tolkien.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #4719
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    A few black people or even a black princess (without any kind of justification for it to happen) in an isolationist population is forced diversity.
    Yeah I agree. If they wanted to make a black member of one of the established Tolkien races then they should have justified it with some bit of explanation. Like a black Dwarf was part of some more exotic race of dwarves in a far off region, or maybe a dwarf married a human who happened to be black and she was an offspring. If they did this with all the inserted ethnically diverse characters then it would have sat better with established fans. However as you said this IS an isolationist population because it's basically an ancient version of England and Ireland and surrounding areas, places where up until much later in OUR history had practically ZERO black, or Asian people.

    If Tolkien was black, and made his version of Middle Earth to tell a story replacing long forgotten or destroyed lore from Africa, and all the characters were black and then someone came along and tried to re-do it somehow but added white characters, in an age and area where there weren't supposed to be any in that area then all hell would break loose.

  20. #4720
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    They almost mention though that were she found the mark could be who knows how many years old and its repeated a few times that the general consensus is that he's dead/gone for good. GG could just think that Galadriel's meddling will bring a dragon or something else down on them given that Sauron wasn't the toughest guy around and could have just died to something better then him that they don't want to mess with like a angry Dog or a really good singers or some other guy who beat him up in the lore.
    To be honest, her company was full of 'unreliable narrators'. Their theories aren't supposed to be trusted considering the same guy said no other Elf commander has ever found the fortress and was outright doubting its existence, right when we literally see it in front of us in the next scene. His entire modus operandi was going home, so he was of course going to pull any excuse out of the book to dismiss any evidence and convince Galadriel to drop the whole thing. I don't think the show expects the audience to take his words as gospel. Even the talks of the threat of evil is gone ended up being revealed as a red herring/misdirect.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 01:47 AM.

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