Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Adamas102]

But with a series centered around the forging around the Rings of power, one of the decisive points in the history of Tolkiens work, and the series named 'the Rings of Power', you know, I'd expect them to actually use what little is know about that period in Middle-Earths history and build around that, not changing events and characters by 2000 years because they need as many recognizable names and events as possible to draw people in.

The timelines that Tolkien set forth for many of the events in the Second Age are pretty ridiculous. I get that they're supposed to represent the sketch of an epic history, but they are completely unsuitable for adaptation to dramatic medium in their original form. Even if you wanted to make an anthology series where the time jumps happen between episodes, you'd have a lot of very boring episodes for isolated events that are too far removed from the overall stakes.

It took about 300 years from Sauron seducing the smiths of Eregion to when they begin forging the Rings of Power, and then almost 100 years for the rings to be completed, followed by a decade before Sauron completes The One Ring, and then another century before the War of the Elves and Sauron begins, which then lasts for almost 10 years. If you think any sort of dramatic tension could be maintained in a show or movie while trying to depict such vast stretches of time accurately then you're absolutely delusional.

The same goes for the end of Numenor: 80 years of civil war before Ar-Pharazon seizes power, 10 years before Sauron is captured, and another 50 years of him corrupting the Numenoreans, and then another 10 years before the downfall.

The one thing the should could have done (and I don't think it would have made things better) would have been to have each season cover only one set of isolated events (the Rings, the downfall of Numenor, etc). Even still, the timelines would have to be condensed to make for a decent narrative. And of course from a production standpoint you'd have entire casts, props, and sets that would only be used for a single season before being discarded. No, it's definitely better for the show that they take the key events and weave them together into a tighter narrative.

[tikcol]

Sure and if you have to disregard Tolkien’s own words on what makes a bad adaptation to pretend that the Jackson movies didn’t disrespect Tolkien’s works and views your also not being honest.

The exact same strawman as the last poster too. It's like I didn't write that Jackson's trilogy is not a perfect adaptation. Or as if I wrote that there's no disrespect for Tolkien's work in Jackson's trilogy.

That's how I'm sure I'm not dealing with a forthright individual.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The exact same strawman as the last poster too. It's like I didn't write that Jackson's trilogy is not a perfect adaptation. Or as if I wrote that there's no disrespect for Tolkien's work in Jackson's trilogy.

That's how I'm sure I'm not dealing with a forthright individual.

Really? Cause I was sure I wasn’t dealing with a forthright individual when you made Up the strawmen about me saying they had the “same level of blatant disrespect”.

Funny how that works.

[rhorle]

The exact same strawman as the last poster too. It's like I didn't write that Jackson's trilogy is not a perfect adaptation. Or as if I wrote that there's no disrespect for Tolkien's work in Jackson's trilogy.

Why is disrespect okay with Jackson works but not okay with Amazon? You brought it up as a Red Herring. It is something that you stated was terrible yet it ultimately doesn't matter because it will be over looked as long as the work hits whatever subjective metric to be considered good enough.

[tikcol]

Really? Cause I was sure I wasn’t dealing with a forthright individual when you made Up the strawmen about me saying they had the “same level of blatant disrespect”.

Funny how that works.

Might want to remember what you post next time

The Jackson movies destroyed any standards I would have had for grounded reasonable fight choreography, so going hard into the camp is fine with me I don’t really expect any thing else from the franchise at this point.

Also, don't pretend to care what Tolkien thought about any of this when you haven't read the material you're watching an adaptation of

And I have literally no feeling towards Galadriel because of the books or movies I’m
Not a big fan of the Jackson movies and I’ve only read the the hobbit and first Lotr Books.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Might want to remember what you post next time

So you think the changes to Gimli or other characters are fight choreography? That saying they are on the same level when it comes to fights means they are on the same level in every other aspects?

Or is that just you continuing to be dishonest?

Also, don't pretend to care what Tolkien thought about any of this when you haven't read the material you're watching an adaptation of

I don’t need to have read the Silmarillion to point out that the Jackson movies did exactly what Tolkien said was an adaptions failings, the hobbit and the first book alone (and common knowledge) puts that on full display.

[Heathy]

I think some ppl will always be upset that it isn't Tolkien himself directing the show. no matter how faithful this managed to be, there will always be something to complain about. to me middle earth is no different to the forgotten realms, its a setting to tell stories, I don't feel compelled to defend some sort of gospel purity. so long as the main plot drivers make sense and take place when they should the cannon shit is full of plot holes and inconsistencies if ppl wanted to be super pedantic about it. the minor details are just that, you can have any number of stories take place between major plot arcs. some liberty has to be taken in order to tell this story in a cohesive way. luckily for those making this, they know where they have to get to, so its just a matter of making the story so that it gets there. whatever major plot points that Tolkien wrote about but didn't go into much detail on obviously have to be more elaborate when you're turning it into a show or movie. I know some of the things he wrote were deliberately vague as to be more like a forgotten history with not many surviving details. at some point they were going to have to expand on the points that were largely ambiguous or vague to be able to tell the story. turning a collection of myths and legends into one continual story. knowing that what he wrote was always changing and incomplete isn't really free reign to do what you want. but if someone wants to come along and try to piece together a story from what was written and fill in the blanks as best as possible. thats the best that anyone is going to get beyond the man rising from the dead and finishing it himself. the levels of over scrupulous standards, do ppl call the mans son's edits fan fiction? where do ppl draw the line exactly. can no one contribute to this universe or try to tell a story in it without the blessing of someone whos now dead? its like ppl complaining that their D&D campaign isn't canon, who cares? is the story interesting even to casual fans? thats what matters. can someone who has seen LoTR follow this, thats what matters. thats obviously what they were going for. translating litrary works into film isn't always that clear, you can have chapters of a book blown past in 5 to 10 minutes and you can have a chapters that spend 20 minutes discussing the decor of a hallway. there obviously has to be some sort of consistency. the idea of a picture saying a thousand word and what that means to the story telling.

[tikcol]

So you think the changes to Gimli or other characters are fight choreography? That saying they are on the same level when it comes to fights means they are on the same level in every other aspects?

Or is that just you continuing to be dishonest?


I don’t need to have read the Silmarillion to point out that the Jackson movies did exactly what Tolkien said was an adaptions failings, the hobbit and the first book alone puts that’s on full display.

This whole "But what about Jackson" is just a big distraction. This is a thread about Rings of Power. Why not create a thread about the Jackson movies and go talk there about how lame they are?

You can continue to ramble for a few pages and point out the Jackson movies every time someone legitimately criticizes RoP but people will just continue not to take you seriously.

I'll say this again and this is the last reply you'll get from me. The Jackson movies are not perfect and do have problems of their own regarding adaptation considerations.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This whole "But what about Jackson" is just a big distraction. This is a thread about Rings of Power. Why not create a thread about the Jackson movies and go talk there about how lame they are?

You can continue to ramble for a few pages and point out the Jackson movies every time someone legitimately criticizes RoP but people will just continue not to take you seriously.

I'll say this again and this is the last reply you'll get from me. The Jackson movies are not a perfect and do have problems of their own regarding adaptation considerations.

Sure the Jackson’s movies are just a distraction, obviously talking about the franchise has no relevance at all and you aren’t at all trying to distract from your own dishonest behaviours after trying to pretend that me saying the fight choreography was about the same means the two adaptations are the same on all levels.

[Askyl]

Rings of Power must be the biggest proof yet Ragebait campagns on YouTube and Facebook is solid gold for content creators.

They literally made a bunch of people pretend to be fans of Tolkien and defend Tolkiens "honor" and review bomb the shit out of it.

Hilarious.

Its no way near perfect. But it is quite beautiful and it will be a fun adaptation. I do think they would have gone of better with dropping the entire season, or maybe in 2 parts like they did stranger things. So far I love everything except Galadriel, feel like they made her a bit Gen Z-ish. Hopefully she will grow. Still decent.


Hopefully the show is successful to the point Tolkien Estate reconcider their tight grip on Silmarillion and the Lost tales rights.

A 1st age trilogy is the dream.

[tikcol]

Rings of Power must be the biggest proof yet Ragebait campagns on YouTube and Facebook is solid gold for content creators.

They literally made a bunch of people pretend to be fans of Tolkien and defend Tolkiens "honor" and review bomb the shit out of it.

Hilarious.

Its no way near perfect. But it is quite beautiful and it will be a fun adaptation. I do think they would have gone of better with dropping the entire season, or maybe in 2 parts like they did stranger things. So far I love everything except Galadriel, feel like they made her a bit Gen Z-ish. Hopefully she will grow. Still decent.


Hopefully the show is successful to the point Tolkien Estate reconcider their tight grip on Silmarillion and the Lost tales rights.

A 1st age trilogy is the dream.

One could argue that the author of one of the best-selling book series of all time, translated into 50 different languages would have, in fact, a lot of fans.

This narrative on the other hand that people that give it low scores are trolls though, doesn't hold up to scrutiny very well when you put a meager amount of thought into it.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one. In this case and to put it bluntly, the show is just bad. There's no conspiracy.

[Dhrizzle]

So now that's he's dead you get to pick and choose and change what was written because he kept changing things up until his death? That's not very honest.

Erm, no? Because he expressed a desire to create a mythos with gaps for others to fill it's okay to fill those gaps, and as much of that mythos was in flux it isn't bad to interpret it in other ways.

It is an origin story in the sense that's we're getting glimpses of the the Hobbit philosophy in the 3rd age of not getting involved with the "outside world" and that adventures are non-sense.

We're also not seeing the origin of that, not getting involved is already part of their ethos and it matches what little we do know of the ancestral Hobbits. An origin would be showing them before they started avoiding other peoples and the events that made them change.

That's what you just made up. It's a very skewed interpretation of the quote to fit this whole narrative of yours and you know it.

No, that's the very clear impression you get if you read the whole letter instead of cherry-picking a few quotes from it.

Besides.. he did put a lot of time perfecting what is written. Be it published or not. If you do not want to view it that way then that's your problem.

It's a pretty common consensus that he was nowhere near perfecting the broader history of Arda. His notes show that vast swathes of what was released as the Silmarillion would have to be rewritten, not least because he wanted Arda to be round from the beginning with the Sun and Moon always existing.

RoP is not representing Tolkien's work, characters or events. So no, it isn't for fans of Tolkien.

Well it is so it is.

[tikcol]

Erm, no? Because he expressed a desire to create a mythos with gaps for others to fill it's okay to fill those gaps, and as much of that mythos was in flux it isn't bad to interpret it in other ways.



We're also not seeing the origin of that, not getting involved is already part of their ethos and it matches what little we do know of the ancestral Hobbits. An origin would be showing them before they started avoiding other peoples and the events that made them change.



No, that's the very clear impression you get if you read the whole letter instead of cherry-picking a few quotes from it.



It's a pretty common consensus that he was nowhere near perfecting the broader history of Arda. His notes show that vast swathes of what was released as the Silmarillion would have to be rewritten, not least because he wanted Arda to be round from the beginning with the Sun and Moon always existing.



Well it is so it is.

There's a difference between filling the gap in your own mind while reading his scripts than creating a story of your own with those gaps and spreading it throughout the world.

No, that's the very clear impression you get if you read the whole letter instead of cherry-picking a few quotes from it.

I challenge you to produce a single quote that would prove this. You can keep spinning this but it's just a lie.

It's a pretty common consensus that he was nowhere near perfecting the broader history of Arda. His notes show that vast swathes of what was released as the Silmarillion would have to be rewritten, not least because he wanted Arda to be round from the beginning with the Sun and Moon always existing.

He might not have perfected it. But your argument was about effort. He put a lot of decades into what was already written when he died. You just don't want to respect that. That's on you. You don't get to write the story he never wrote. Well, RoP does and that's the problem.

Well it is so it is.

The show just isn't bringing to life events or characters as written, your argument doesn't hold to scrutiny when it's blatantly obvious the amount of changes they're making not only to the storyline, events, timeline but also characters.

I understand that they need to condense the timelime, it's reasonable. They're not doing that though, they're completely re-writing the order of events and how they play out

[s_bushido]

I knew it was going to happen, but Isildur even still felt out of left field with Numenor still kicking. It's disappointing that racists and sexists completely drowned out legitimate criticism of the timeline. I feel like if the community had been more focused, they may have taken some of it into consideration. Probably not, but one can dream.

Eh? Based solely on the few wikis I found, Isildur would have been an adult (and ready to rule in his own right) by the time Numenor fell. I'm not sure what you think is "out of left field" about his inclusion in this.

[BeepBoo]

Isn't the time between the rings being forged and the ring getting axed off sauron's finger like... a thousand years or something? numenoreans live a long time, but not THAT long.

Research shows... yeah.. ring made in SA 1600. Ring lopped off in SA 3400....

Amazon wut is u doin? Show is aight so far, but stop trying to leave token (tolkien?) references for fans where they don't belong.
We know the rings aren't made yet. Meaning this is pre 1600. We know numenor fell in ~3300.

[s_bushido]

One of the first things we learned about the series was that they'd be compressing the timeline of the 2nd age... These aren't "token" references, they're intentional changes to tell a story that isn't unnecessarily broken up by decades/centuries.

[BeepBoo]

One of the first things we learned about the series was that they'd be compressing the timeline of the 2nd age... These aren't "token" references, they're intentional changes to tell a story that isn't unnecessarily broken up by decades/centuries.

"We knew they were going to completely gut the timeline to make it more convenient for film" isn't exactly a defense against the criticism that his appearance is out of left field, because it is. It's either a huge rewrite of the timeline or a huge rewrite of numenorean lifespan. I suppose it could also be them just telling multiple stories in tandem from different parts of the timeline, but that's bad story telling IMO and certainly enough evidence for saying he felt out of place and out of left-field.

[rhorle]

"We knew they were going to completely gut the timeline to make it more convenient for film" isn't exactly a defense against the criticism that his appearance is out of left field, because it is. It's either a huge rewrite of the timeline or a huge rewrite of numenorean lifespan. I suppose it could also be them just telling multiple stories in tandem from different parts of the timeline, but that's bad story telling IMO.

They are saying that it isn't "out of left field" because Amazon made clear they were changing the time line. It isn't a defense but merely an explanation of their decision.

In the novels, the aforementioned things take place over thousands of years, but Payne and McKay have compressed events into a single point in time. It is their biggest deviation from the text, and they know it’s a big swing. “We talked with the Tolkien estate,” says Payne. “If you are true to the exact letter of the law, you are going to be telling a story in which your human characters are dying off every season because you’re jumping 200 years in time, and then you’re not meeting really big, important canon characters until season four. Look, there might be some fans who want us to do a documentary of Middle-earth, but we’re going to tell one story that unites all these things.” https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...ies-first-look

[s_bushido]

Considering that they told us that they'd be doing this before we'd even seen much/any footage, whining that they followed through on their stated plan is ridiculous.

And they demonstrated exactly why they did this in the story itself: Durin was upset that he'd essentially lived a lifetime since his friend bothered to check in on him. But for his immortal friend, even that amount of time might as well have been a long weekend... So they showrunners decided to change the timeline in order to tell a story featuring both mortals and immortal elves without having to have a rotating cast of throwaway humans/dwarves to demonstrate the passage of time. It's pretty basic shit.

[Triceron]

One of the first things we learned about the series was that they'd be compressing the timeline of the 2nd age... These aren't "token" references, they're intentional changes to tell a story that isn't unnecessarily broken up by decades/centuries.

Just because we knew they planned to do it doesn't excuse them of doing it though. It rubs off as being inauthentic, and frankly, makes a mess of the established fiction rather enhancing what is already there.