Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I agree that the result would be a sort of multiverse but regardless of whether that is what it winds up being, that still does not mean that is what he wanted. How we got here is due to his death and the details of whatever rights studios are given and how they are exercised. Marvel making alternate versions of characters from different universes is fine because they own those characters and can do whatever they want. Tolkien intended his stories to be fixed in time and space as one single set of events and occurrences, which means not a multiverse.

Sure I can agree that Tolkien didn’t like the idea of a multiverse but even when he was alive he started building the path for one when he okayed a movie even though he later wrote that whole letter about it and it never came about in his life time.

As to the modern day though the multiverse ship sailed in the 80’s and it’s only gotten further out to sea with every new adaption, the chances of it coming back to port is non existent.

[Triceron]

Yes, in the sense that any variation is a different continuity that is true, but when we speak of Marvel or DC, multiverses are a part of the overall structure that these stories exist in and characters from different multiverses can even interact with each other. Meaning it was something they developed intentionally as a way to keep characters popular and try new things. That is not what Tolkien envisioned for Lord of the Rings.

It doesn't really matter what he envisioned for LOTR, we have to accept that this is a brand that has been in the hands of many different creatives and there is no one key visionary holding it together. Any visual medium will merely be an adaptation of the works, and never going to be a canonical continuation.

Same can be said of Star Wars and its relations to George Lucas. Lucas never intended there to be branching 'timelines', but that's pretty much what happened with the novels and games taking the story well past what he originally made for the films. And they had to archive that all as a part of the 'Legends' brand just to try and recontextualize canon. And even then, the current canon is quite fucked up by the Sequel trilogy and all its associated products. The only good thing is that there are certain creatives like Filoni who are keen on keeping certain things canonical, and bridge explanations between things that might have strayed too far from the source.

We don't really have a multimedia visionary for Tolkien's work, considering most Tolkien experts are the likes of historians and curators who would not seek to expand on the material at all. And frankly, Peter Jackson happens to be one of the only creatives people trust, but some of that good faith also got squandered with the Hobbit films so it's hard to say. Would Peter Jackson's Rings of Power been that much more better than what we have now? I think it's just the Hobbit all over again since we're dealing with adding new material to 'fill in the gaps', and arguably that was some of the worst part of the Hobbit films.

[rhorle]

Did you even read what this article talks about? It doesn't stop breathing. It alters blood flow, favoring heart and head. In addition, it's mild or non-existent in adults.

Yes, I did. Dry drowning uses that a part of that "diving reflex" to cause a laryngospasm that seals the airway. It is possible for that to happen which would mean an unconscious person wouldn't be breathing in water. It is also why a person can drown after they are out of the water.

Saying that Elves in Tolkiens work are not a genetic copy of Humans in the real world is not a garbage argument. The garbage argument is using real world human genetics and abilities to argue for why an elf is required to function the same way. Your own dismissal of a realistic way shows that you are just grasping at straws of an argument. It also questions your ability to spot better writing if you dismiss anything you don't like as "bad" rather then being able to separate "I don't like it" from "It is bad writing.

Remember we have a man falling from the sky without dying. Subjectively using realism to hate on the show is silly. It is meant to be fiction.

- - - Updated - - -

The Jackson Film did not make a completely different story with completely different character arcs and events.

It did. It makes introduced different character roles, excluded others, skipped some, and did whatever it needed to in order to make an adaptation that Mr. Jackson was happy with. You can't just dismiss those changes to canon simply because you like it. Well you can but it shows the hypocrisy in your statements.

Anybody with the rights to making a Tolkien product has already been allowed to create a "multiverse". You act as if Amazon is the first company to produce something that diverges from Tolkien-canon. The Lego video games created another universe. War in the North. Lord of the Rings Online. Shadow of War and Shadow of Mordor. And more that I haven't listed.

All you keep doing is how you are selectively applying arguments to single out Amazon while ignoring any other case where your argument applies. That is hatred for the sake of hatred.

[Triceron]

Remember we have a man falling from the sky without dying. Subjectively using realism to hate on the show is silly. It is meant to be fiction.

It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.

[bledgor]

It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.

Don't give them any ideals now, or we will have flying Galadriel who shots fireballs out of her eyes and bolts of lightning from her arse before we know it. Least then she would be closer in height at 7 feet tall.

[rhorle]

It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

Sigh. Indicate where Tolkien created internal rules to cover this? As I said in a earlier response Tolkien never went in-depth into the capabilities of elves. Based on the real world it is possible for a submerged unconscious person to not have water in their lungs once brought back up to the surface. Saying it is fiction does mean that an elf could suddenly fly because those internal rules you brought up are created by the author.

The amusing part is the mother of Elrond did develop the ability to fly so she could visit his father. It was of course in the form of shape shifting into a bird but it is still an example of Tolkien "breaking internal rules" to fit the narrative he wanted to tell. An elf couldn't fly so he made a reason that allowed her to.

[Kumorii]

It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.

to add to this:

Usually our world and our references is the fall back when things aren't mentioned.
There's a reason why people point to the ears when describing elfs, and then use adjectives such as "beautiful" to explain the rest because it's assumed that the rest is that of a human. If fiction doesn't specify characteristics or traits or just about anything on how anything works, the fall back should be reality... not "welp, anything goes".

If the show wants to add traits such as their breathing underwater (ridiculous thing to argue about btw) is different to humans they need to establish that or address it.
Fact is they didn't, so the fall back is the same as humans.

[rhorle]

If the show wants to add traits such as their breathing underwater (ridiculous thing to argue about btw) is different to humans they need to establish that or address it. Fact is they didn't, so the fall back is the same as humans.

Again. It is possible for an unconscious person to not have water in their lungs after being submerged. If you take this to mean breathing underwater that is your fault and is not actually something the show or myself is representing. So according to your own fall back the scene is perfectly fine yet I'm sure you'll find some way to shirk that conclusion.

[Triceron]

Sigh. Indicate where Tolkien created internal rules to cover this? As I said in a earlier response Tolkien never went in-depth into the capabilities of elves. Based on the real world it is possible for a submerged unconscious person to not have water in their lungs once brought back up to the surface. Saying it is fiction does mean that an elf could suddenly fly because those internal rules you brought up are created by the author.

The amusing part is the mother of Elrond did develop the ability to fly so she could visit his father. It was of course in the form of shape shifting into a bird but it is still an example of Tolkien "breaking internal rules" to fit the narrative he wanted to tell. An elf couldn't fly so he made a reason that allowed her to.

I'm not talking about Tolkien's rules, I am talking about the SHOWS internal rules for its intended fiction.

Galadriel being depicted as drowning isn't sourced from Tolkien's work, it's a liberty taken by the show creators for the show.

[InfiniteCharger]

Sure I can agree that Tolkien didn’t like the idea of a multiverse but even when he was alive he started building the path for one when he okayed a movie even though he later wrote that whole letter about it and it never came about in his life time.

As to the modern day though the multiverse ship sailed in the 80’s and it’s only gotten further out to sea with every new adaption, the chances of it coming back to port is non existent.

The point was it wasn't what he wanted, but he is now dead. Doesn't change that it is not what he wanted.

[Dhrizzle]

It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.

What are the established rules for how Elves respond to being submerged in water while unconscious?

- - - Updated - - -

Don't give them any ideals now, or we will have flying Galadriel who shots fireballs out of her eyes and bolts of lightning from her arse before we know it. Least then she would be closer in height at 7 feet tall.

That might please the people crying that Galadriel shouldn't carry a sword because she should be a mage slinging spells from the back.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.

Didn’t some one once fly a boat to kill a huge dragon? No idea the explanation behind it but it wouldn’t be completely out of left field if it could be done on people some way.

[InfiniteCharger]

It doesn't really matter what he envisioned for LOTR, we have to accept that this is a brand that has been in the hands of many different creatives and there is no one key visionary holding it together. Any visual medium will merely be an adaptation of the works, and never going to be a canonical continuation.

Same can be said of Star Wars and its relations to George Lucas. Lucas never intended there to be branching 'timelines', but that's pretty much what happened with the novels and games taking the story well past what he originally made for the films. And they had to archive that all as a part of the 'Legends' brand just to try and recontextualize canon. And even then, the current canon is quite fucked up by the Sequel trilogy and all its associated products. The only good thing is that there are certain creatives like Filoni who are keen on keeping certain things canonical, and bridge explanations between things that might have strayed too far from the source.

We don't really have a multimedia visionary for Tolkien's work, considering most Tolkien experts are the likes of historians and curators who would not seek to expand on the material at all. And frankly, Peter Jackson happens to be one of the only creatives people trust, but some of that good faith also got squandered with the Hobbit films so it's hard to say. Would Peter Jackson's Rings of Power been that much more better than what we have now? I think it's just the Hobbit all over again since we're dealing with adding new material to 'fill in the gaps', and arguably that was some of the worst part of the Hobbit films.

If these kinds of stories are no longer following Tolkien then it begs the question of why even call it Tolkien at that point? You are only simply watering down the brand because the brand is Tolkien and his work and his attention to detail and excellence in writing. Without that there is nothing. Do you think ROP will be remembered as an excellent piece of fantasy that should be admired years down the road in its own right? It only leads to a path of diminishing returns as people realize that the Tolkien estate no longer cares about its IP and is allowing people to do almost whatever the want with less than stellar results.

[Triceron]

What are the established rules for how Elves respond to being submerged in water while unconscious?

They established that she would have drowned if she were not saved. That is what the show establishes by showing her struggle and gasp for air as she reaches the surface. These are the same basic rules of 'biology' that humans exhibit if one were to be put in a similar situation.

And was she truly unconscious underwater? That's debatable, since all we see is her in a 'daze', and we don't really know if she was knocked out. She seemed fine as soon as she made it to the surface, and not carried onto the raft as though she would have been completely water logged if she were completely out.

[Dhrizzle]

I have to say that it's a testimony to how determined people are to hate this show regardless that we're getting wikipedia links to attack the "unconscious person rescued from drowning" trope.

[rhorle]

I'm not talking about Tolkien's rules, I am talking about the SHOWS internal rules for its intended fiction.

It doesn't contradict the internal rules of the show so either way you are still wrong lol.

[Dhrizzle]

Didn’t some one once fly a boat to kill a huge dragon? No idea the explanation behind it but it wouldn’t be completely out of left field if it could be done on people some way.

It was Elrond's dad Earandil, he returned to the Valar with a Silmaril and sparked the War of Wrath. He was given a boat and set to fly across the sky with the Silmaril on his brow, effectively becoming the Morning/Evening star. Later he assaulted Morgoth's greatest dragon with a flock of birds.

IIRC his wife could turn into a big white bird and flew to meet him as he passed her tower. Incidentally if you trace the path of the Stranger's meteor and track it all the way back he may have passed close to her tower

[Triceron]

Didn’t some one once fly a boat to kill a huge dragon? No idea the explanation behind it but it wouldn’t be completely out of left field if it could be done on people some way.

It depends on the context.

I'm talking about Peter Pan style flying and how it'd break suspension of disbelief. Like if they suddenly show an Elf not only being able to jump far, but literally change directions in the air. That would break all sorts of rules that have been established so far with what we understand of their physiology.

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about and the context of it as it pertains to Tolkien's own writings. If we're talking about flying ships and whatnot, then that may be implied to be magical/technological, and we know that magical enchantments do exist in the world such as rings that grant one invisibility. It doesn't mean flight or invisibility are a natural part of a being's physiology.

[bledgor]

It depends on the context.

I'm talking about Peter Pan style flying and how it'd break suspension of disbelief. Like if they suddenly show an Elf not only being able to jump far, but literally change directions in the air. That would break all sorts of rules that have been established so far with what we understand of their physiology.

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about and the context of it as it pertains to Tolkien's own writings. If we're talking about flying ships and whatnot, then that may be implied to be magical/technological, and we know that magical enchantments do exist in the world such as rings that grant one invisibility. It doesn't mean flight or invisibility are a natural part of a being's physiology.

Just face it, some posters here will do anything to tear down Tolkien and prop up this garbage show. Makes you wonder if there pockets are being greased by how ardent they attack any slight against the show, even shit as stupid as an Elf trying to swim the equivalent of the Atlantic Ocean.

[Triceron]

It doesn't contradict the internal rules of the show so either way you are still wrong lol.

I didn't say it contradicted the internal rules of the show, so not sure why you would say I'm wrong.

I'm merely contending your point that 'it's fiction so they can do anything they want' by explaining that the show still has internal rules to follow for the sake of suspension of disbelief.

You're the one trying to imply that Elf physiology doesn't work anything like Human biology, despite the fact the show depicts them having similar traits to humans such as being prone to drowning, or gasping for air when they reach to the surface as a human would. These are basic rules that the show actually do establish.

Otherwise, the whole scene would lack any tension if you're merely implying that Galadriel was in no mortal danger in that situation because 'she's an Elf and her biology doesn't work like a Humans'. Well, we know that's not true because the show was intentionally establishing that the scene was dangerous, that Galadriel was in mortal danger, and that she would have drowned 'like any human would' in that situation if she had not been saved. That was the purpose of the scene.