1. #4741
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Tolkien's work remains the same regardless of what the show does. It isn't like film butchering book adaptations is anything new so literature would been six feet under for a long time prior to Rings of Power. This is no different then the Marvel movies being part of their own "universe" that is distinct from the source medium (comics). The comics are not destroyed or invalidated because it isn't a 1:1 copy.
    Tolkien's work is not a multiverse. There is supposed to be only one canonical set of events and characters which primarily are based on what he wrote. This nonsense that we can have 5 different versions of the second age based on 5 different studios 'interpretation' is not what Tolkien wanted. Marvel owns their IP and can do what they want with it. Tolkien is dead and the Tolkien estate is basically farming off part of his story for money. Amazon does not have the rights to tell the "definitive" story of the second age, whether Tolkien fleshed it out or not. Whatever they are doing is not canon and is just a made up story that is not literally part of Tolkien's legendarium. So this show is just that, a billion dollar "what if" fan fiction. Which makes their claims about being ground breaking totally disingenuous and phony. And if that is what the Tolkien estate is allowing then shame on them. None of these made up characters are canon and nobody has to respect them if they do another version of the second age. And nobody has to follow Amazons 'compressed' timeline, nor do they have to respect the made up narrative they have created outside Tolkien.

    What you are basically saying is it is OK for any studio to just throw some crap into the second age and call it Tolkien.......

    Now if you like it and all, then thats fine, but to call this Tolkien as if it is canon, is false. And the reason why so many people are complaining is because Amazon themselves have tried to sell this show as a literal canon version of the second age story when it isn't. At the end of every episode it states clearly that this series is only 'inspired' by Tolkien and that even if the characters have the same names as those from Tolkien, they are not literally based on what Tolkien wrote. But they put that at the very end of the credits in a place most people wont ever see it. Amazon knows it is not canon so as long as we keep it at that then fine. But it is the marketing of trying to have it both ways in pretending that it is canon while in the small print stating it isn't is the problem
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-14 at 02:57 PM.

  2. #4742
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Tolkien's work is not a multiverse.
    It still is not. There is only one canonical set of events. This isn't even the first adaptation so your statements are a little silly to make. If Marvel can do what they want with their IP then can't the Tolkien Estate do what they want with their IP including selling the rights to a company?

    https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Adaptat...d_of_the_Rings
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  3. #4743
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It still is not. There is only one canonical set of events. This isn't even the first adaptation so your statements are a little silly to make. If Marvel can do what they want with their IP then can't the Tolkien Estate do what they want with their IP including selling the rights to a company?

    https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Adaptat...d_of_the_Rings
    Oh they can absolutely do what they want with their IP.

    But the fans don't have to be happy about that do they? Look at the shit show Star Wars had with the sequel trilogy. Only now are they building back some good faith with Mandalorian and some of the shows (and even then the shows are a bit hit and miss)

    I mean the whole reason people are upset about this series is because it's not great. Hell, it's technically not even good by audience aggregate standards. And it's kinda sad because it really should be better than what we're getting. IMO, so far there's much more bad than there is good in the series, and the best way to enjoy it is on a surface level, like watching some CW DC superhero show. Otherwise the writers haven't really built a consistent world that has the richness of depth expected of (a derivative of) Tolkien's work
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 03:13 PM.

  4. #4744
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Tolkien's work is not a multiverse. There is supposed to be only one canonical set of events and characters which primarily are based on what he wrote.
    The Tolkien multiverse ship kinda already sailed in 1978 with the animated movies which broke the canon and then again with the Jackson movies and again with shadow of Mordor.

    ROP is the 5th different continuity at this point with all Of them being under Tolkien's name/franchise even though he didn’t write them.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #4745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Oh man, get ready for the cringiest slow-mo horse-riding scene ever
    You all complained that this woman never smiled.. now you know why :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Killing literature? Are they burning any copy’s of the books they can find and shooting modern day authors or something?
    I mean, not burned, but America is trying to ban it because, something, something, religion,. something :P

    Maybe thats why they are afraid, they afraid they'll be no books and Rings of Power is the only source material they'll have... lol.
    Last edited by Orby; 2022-09-14 at 03:18 PM.
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  6. #4746
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I mean, not burned, but America is trying to ban it because, something, something, religion,. something :P

    Maybe thats why they are afraid, they afraid they'll be no books and Rings of Power is the only source material they'll have... lol.
    Huh ya I totally forgot that was an ongoing thing in America.

    And Who knows Mabye if you dig deep enough you can find Amazon funding them to corner the market!
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #4747
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Even if she was strong enough to swim against being pulled down by a big chunk of wood/metal/rope, it wouldn't much matter if she was fucking unconscious. Which...you know:
    Know what's even better about people who are unconscious under water?

    They instantly drown because they're incapable of holding their breath. Nice touch, that. Having her swim to the surface herself without needing to be resuscitated after drowning for at least 10 seconds and undoubtedly actively taking on water into her lungs.

  8. #4748
    Herald of the Titans rogoth's Avatar
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    i'm quite frankly astonished nobody has brought up the emergency interview these amateurs had to do recently in order to try and justify their cultural appropriation and absolutely disgusting stereotyping with their writing, it's actually pretty funny seeing them come out and start to backtrack on the name calling and ist/phobe labelling they have been throwing around lately in an utterly embarrassing attempt to try and avoid the repercussions of their actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Know what's even better about people who are unconscious under water?

    They instantly drown because they're incapable of holding their breath. Nice touch, that. Having her swim to the surface herself without needing to be resuscitated after drowning for at least 10 seconds and undoubtedly actively taking on water into her lungs.
    you forgot that warrior goddess galadriel who don't need no man is immune to such trivialities such as this, she not only has unbreakable plot armour the likes of which has not been seen before, even in the most egregious Anime productions, but she also has the power of feminism on her side, and that is a weapon unlike any other.

  9. #4749
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i'm quite frankly astonished nobody has brought up the emergency interview these amateurs had to do recently in order to try and justify their cultural appropriation and absolutely disgusting stereotyping with their writing, it's actually pretty funny seeing them come out and start to backtrack on the name calling and ist/phobe labelling they have been throwing around lately in an utterly embarrassing attempt to try and avoid the repercussions of their actions.
    Don’t tend to follow post release media, What cultural appropriation and stereotyping are they justifying? Nothing comes to mind for the first 3 episodes.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  10. #4750
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    i'm quite frankly astonished nobody has brought up the emergency interview these amateurs had to do recently in order to try and justify their cultural appropriation and absolutely disgusting stereotyping with their writing, it's actually pretty funny seeing them come out and start to backtrack on the name calling and ist/phobe labelling they have been throwing around lately in an utterly embarrassing attempt to try and avoid the repercussions of their actions.

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    you forgot that warrior goddess galadriel who don't need no man is immune to such trivialities such as this, she not only has unbreakable plot armour the likes of which has not been seen before, even in the most egregious Anime productions, but she also has the power of feminism on her side, and that is a weapon unlike any other.
    Remember when the man saved Galadriel from drowning? You're such a troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Don’t tend to follow post release media, What cultural appropriation and stereotyping are they justifying? Nothing comes to mind for the first 3 episodes.
    He means he's triggered by black people in stuff. Pretty simple. He's been complaining about it for hundreds of pages.

  11. #4751
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    He means he's triggered by black people in stuff. Pretty simple. He's been complaining about it for hundreds of pages.
    I’d assume if they are pointing towards an interview where they talk about cultural appropriation and stereotyping said interview would give some actual examples though.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  12. #4752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Don’t tend to follow post release media, What cultural appropriation and stereotyping are they justifying? Nothing comes to mind for the first 3 episodes.
    it was an interview with them trying to justify why they made the hobbits-not hobbits into dirty irish people, and why they made all the dwarves have a stereotypical scots accent, they were called out by the Irish Post newspaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigToast View Post
    Remember when the man saved Galadriel from drowning? You're such a troll.

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    He means he's triggered by black people in stuff. Pretty simple. He's been complaining about it for hundreds of pages.
    oh the irony of your moronic assumption is hilarious, please do it more, you gave me a good laugh which i needed today as i'm forced to ingest 4 different types of pain medication to manage one of my health problems, you making a complete fucking muppet out of yourself has made my day, keep it up, i'm sure it makes you look really smart /s.

  13. #4753
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    They instantly drown because they're incapable of holding their breath. Nice touch, that. Having her swim to the surface herself without needing to be resuscitated after drowning for at least 10 seconds and undoubtedly actively taking on water into her lungs.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_reflex

    It isn't entirely true that they will instantly drown as the body has reflexes that will prevent breathing for a time. It is true though that the body reaches a point where it will attempt to breath. An Elf of course isn't Human or even from the real world and Tolkien never went this in-depth into their abilities so it is silly to even bring this into a discussion.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #4754
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    it was an interview with them trying to justify why they made the hobbits-not hobbits into dirty irish people, and why they made all the dwarves have a stereotypical scots accent, they were called out by the Irish Post newspaper.
    Hmm can’t say I know enough about the Irish to know what to look for in the case of the hobbits.

    The Scottish accent bit seems a bit odd though, dwarfs are obviously scot bashed but complaining just about the accent when they otherwise didn’t really play into actual Scottish stereotypes is weird to me.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-09-14 at 04:31 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #4755
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I’d assume if they are pointing towards an interview where they talk about cultural appropriation and stereotyping said interview would give some actual examples though.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/t...bn-well-spent/

    I'm guessing it is this article that reads more like an op-ed then an actually controversy. In another article with one of the Harfoot actors he suggested it was meant to invoke a sense of community and used his own life experiences to put it into context. Though I can certainly understand why it may be a touchy subject but I'm not sure it crosses into racist or stereotype.

    When I spoke to Sir Lenworth Henry, who plays a harfoot and has no say in the accents either way, he suggested that the Irish inflection is meant to convey a community feel, and that the creative team wanted an “identifiably celtic-rooted dialect” for the harfoots. The harfoots, according to Tolkien lore, were allies of the dwarves, who in the original trilogy and this series have Scottish accents, so perhaps that celtic link informed the decision. In Henry’s estimation, it’s a vibe thing: “[The harfoots] are a nomadic, very earthy, hard-handed, hard-working people,” Henry said. “My dad came to this country and worked with Irish people, and they worked with a lot of Jamaicans and there was a real sense of we're all in this together. And I think [that's the case] with the harfoots.” https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/cultur...-irish-accents
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #4756
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    oh the irony of your moronic assumption is hilarious, please do it more, you gave me a good laugh which i needed today as i'm forced to ingest 4 different types of pain medication to manage one of my health problems, you making a complete fucking muppet out of yourself has made my day, keep it up, i'm sure it makes you look really smart /s.
    Now it makes sense. Sorry to hear about your health problems. I am more sorry that you exist to be a miserable troll on this board. Sad.

  17. #4757
    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/t...e-showrunners/

    it's this one, though it's behind a paywall.
    Error 404 - Signature not found

  18. #4758
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The Tolkien multiverse ship kinda already sailed in 1978 with the animated movies which broke the canon and then again with the Jackson movies and again with shadow of Mordor.

    ROP is the 5th different continuity at this point with all Of them being under Tolkien's name/franchise even though he didn’t write them.
    Nothing so far has attempted to tell the story of the Second Age. So technically this is the first attempt to do anything with it. Not to mention they don't have the rights to touch anything before or after. And it is because of the way they condensed the story of the 2nd age and changed the events that this becomes the first of any adaptation to set itself up as a completely and fully alternate universe from what Tolkien wrote. The animated version and movies were much closer to the actual story and not trying to wholesale replace it with something different, while the games were focused on smaller time periods where they did tell wholly original stories but at a smaller scale which had little impact on anything else.

  19. #4759
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/t...e-showrunners/

    it's this one, though it's behind a paywall.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20220913...e-showrunners/

    The wayback machine can get past pay walls. This really does feel like manufactured outrage given that the objection is because Harfoots are equated to "filthy rags" and the accent is not used with characters of finer dress. It definitely doesn't feel like the show runners are back tracking or doing anything crazy to respond as the OP of this tangent implied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    And it is because of the way they condensed the story of the 2nd age and changed the events that this becomes the first of any adaptation to set itself up as a completely and fully alternate universe from what Tolkien wrote.
    The Jackson film had changes and some small time skips. The moment any change is made from Tolkien canon it creates a fully alternate universe.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #4760
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_reflex

    It isn't entirely true that they will instantly drown as the body has reflexes that will prevent breathing for a time. It is true though that the body reaches a point where it will attempt to breath. An Elf of course isn't Human or even from the real world and Tolkien never went this in-depth into their abilities so it is silly to even bring this into a discussion.
    Did you even read what this article talks about? It doesn't stop breathing. It alters blood flow, favoring heart and head. In addition, it's mild or non-existent in adults.

    "It's pointless to bring up because it's entirely possible for elves to handwave that they don't breathe when unconscious!" Garbage argument. We know they function just like literally every other mammal as far as their biological functions of life, from breathing, to eating, to waste creation. Here's a question: is it better as a writer to look for loopholes to things that were previously assumed or is it better to stick to realism?

    I certainly know what *I* consider better writing.

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