1. #4761
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Nothing so far has attempted to tell the story of the Second Age. So technically this is the first attempt to do anything with it. Not to mention they don't have the rights to touch anything before or after. And it is because of the way they condensed the story of the 2nd age and changed the events that this becomes the first of any adaptation to set itself up as a completely and fully alternate universe from what Tolkien wrote. The animated version and movies were much closer to the actual story and not trying to wholesale replace it with something different, while the games were focused on smaller time periods where they did tell wholly original stories but at a smaller scale which had little impact on anything else.
    All of the adaptations are a completely and fully alternate universe, there are no goblins singing about whips or goblin town in Tolkien’s universe, nor are there elephant surfing elf's or spiders turning into sexy lady’s. all of these things are in there own little universes that have no connection to each and no connection to Tolkien’s actual canon.

    The differences might be in earlier period and telling a different story like shadow of Mordor did but that doesn’t actually have any barring on all of the adaptations being different universes that diverge in a ton of little and big ways from the actual canon.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-09-14 at 05:19 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #4762
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The Jackson film had changes and some small time skips. The moment any change is made from Tolkien canon it creates a fully alternate universe.
    The Jackson Film did not make a completely different story with completely different character arcs and events. In doing this for ROP Amazon has set the standard that anybody with rights to Tolkien can do almost whatever they want and thus why I mentioned multiverse. And the core of this is that the Tolkien Estate is now allowing productions that are going so vastly away from the source material whereas before small changes were generally frowned upon but of course allowed. Technically this is a story only inspired by Tolkien and literally not part of the Tolkien canon at all which is what makes it part of a multiverse of 'inspired' Tolkien variants that are not canon at all.

  3. #4763
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The Jackson Film did not make a completely different story with completely different character arcs and events. In doing this for ROP Amazon has set the standard that anybody with rights to Tolkien can do almost whatever they want and thus why I mentioned multiverse. And the core of this is that the Tolkien Estate is now allowing productions that are going so vastly away from the source material whereas before small changes were generally frowned upon but of course allowed. Technically this is a story only inspired by Tolkien and literally not part of the Tolkien canon at all which is what makes it part of a multiverse of 'inspired' Tolkien variants that are not canon at all.
    The Jackson films don't have to make a 'completely different story' to be considered their own universe and considered to be different from the books. Just like Marvel can make a new reboot of any of the Fox or Sony characters and stories while keeping some things similar, but we know they're not the same. Like even the upcoming Daredevil series will not be based on the Netflix Daredevil character, even though it's the same actor portraying the role.

    All adaptations are their own self-contained universes. The Jackson films took many different big and small changes.

    Just as RoP is merely inspired by Tolkien and not part of the canon, so are the Jackson films, which includes the Hobbit movies which many people would like to forget about when regarding 'Jackson films'.

    And to be fair, the Tolkien Estate had always been strict about what can or can not be deviated from, but they're still liscencing these deals for money and is why we have so many different LOTR media that isn't connected to each other. I mean just taking a look at all the disconnected Video game adaptations or the Games Workshop board games or whatever material elaborates on the origins and depictions of the Nazgul shows that there's plenty of mish-mashed 'Extended Universe' material out there that isn't part of the main canon. RoP is just the latest in a line of 'fan fiction' creations with a liscence for distribution.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 05:30 PM.

  4. #4764
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    All of the adaptations are a completely and fully alternate universe, there are no goblins singing about whips or goblin town in Tolkien’s universe, nor are there elephant surfing elf's or spiders turning into sexy lady’s. all of these things are in there own little universes that have no connection to each and no connection to Tolkien’s actual canon.

    The differences might be in earlier period and telling a different story like shadow of Mordor did but that doesn’t actually have any barring on all of the adaptations being different universes that diverge in a ton of little and big ways from the actual canon.
    I agree that the result would be a sort of multiverse but regardless of whether that is what it winds up being, that still does not mean that is what he wanted. How we got here is due to his death and the details of whatever rights studios are given and how they are exercised. Marvel making alternate versions of characters from different universes is fine because they own those characters and can do whatever they want. Tolkien intended his stories to be fixed in time and space as one single set of events and occurrences, which means not a multiverse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The Jackson films don't have to make a 'completely different story' to be considered their own universe and considered to be different from the books. Just like Marvel can make a new reboot of any of the Fox or Sony characters and stories while keeping some things similar, but we know they're not the same. Like even the upcoming Daredevil series will not be based on the Netflix Daredevil character, even though it's the same actor portraying the role.

    All adaptations are their own self-contained universes. The Jackson films took many different big and small changes.

    Just as RoP is merely inspired by Tolkien and not part of the canon, so are the Jackson films, which includes the Hobbit movies which many people would like to forget about when regarding 'Jackson films'.
    Yes, in the sense that any variation is a different continuity that is true, but when we speak of Marvel or DC, multiverses are a part of the overall structure that these stories exist in and characters from different multiverses can even interact with each other. Meaning it was something they developed intentionally as a way to keep characters popular and try new things. That is not what Tolkien envisioned for Lord of the Rings.

    So I agree that eventually as time goes on there will be multiple versions of these stories created in film and so forth. And that only is going to happen because of money, not because that is what Tolkien wanted or intended. The issue is how different in scope and character these productions wind up being from the source material. Jackson openly stated he wanted to stick as close to Tolkien as possible. Amazon has stated right up front that they were making up their own story only loosely based on what Tolkien wrote. And that is the difference.

    At the end of the day, if the Tolkien Estate were smart, they would have approached a studio to make an 'official' adaptation of the 2nd age with full rights to the Simarillion and other works that is considered as canon. Because the events of the ages prior to the 3rd age are mostly only written about in a summary format with additional notes and letters here and there. That would be the easiest way to guarantee some kind of consistency in terms of the overall narrative and characters. But they didn't, so it is what it is.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2022-09-14 at 05:37 PM.

  5. #4765
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    I agree that the result would be a sort of multiverse but regardless of whether that is what it winds up being, that still does not mean that is what he wanted. How we got here is due to his death and the details of whatever rights studios are given and how they are exercised. Marvel making alternate versions of characters from different universes is fine because they own those characters and can do whatever they want. Tolkien intended his stories to be fixed in time and space as one single set of events and occurrences, which means not a multiverse.
    Sure I can agree that Tolkien didn’t like the idea of a multiverse but even when he was alive he started building the path for one when he okayed a movie even though he later wrote that whole letter about it and it never came about in his life time.

    As to the modern day though the multiverse ship sailed in the 80’s and it’s only gotten further out to sea with every new adaption, the chances of it coming back to port is non existent.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #4766
    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    Yes, in the sense that any variation is a different continuity that is true, but when we speak of Marvel or DC, multiverses are a part of the overall structure that these stories exist in and characters from different multiverses can even interact with each other. Meaning it was something they developed intentionally as a way to keep characters popular and try new things. That is not what Tolkien envisioned for Lord of the Rings.
    It doesn't really matter what he envisioned for LOTR, we have to accept that this is a brand that has been in the hands of many different creatives and there is no one key visionary holding it together. Any visual medium will merely be an adaptation of the works, and never going to be a canonical continuation.

    Same can be said of Star Wars and its relations to George Lucas. Lucas never intended there to be branching 'timelines', but that's pretty much what happened with the novels and games taking the story well past what he originally made for the films. And they had to archive that all as a part of the 'Legends' brand just to try and recontextualize canon. And even then, the current canon is quite fucked up by the Sequel trilogy and all its associated products. The only good thing is that there are certain creatives like Filoni who are keen on keeping certain things canonical, and bridge explanations between things that might have strayed too far from the source.

    We don't really have a multimedia visionary for Tolkien's work, considering most Tolkien experts are the likes of historians and curators who would not seek to expand on the material at all. And frankly, Peter Jackson happens to be one of the only creatives people trust, but some of that good faith also got squandered with the Hobbit films so it's hard to say. Would Peter Jackson's Rings of Power been that much more better than what we have now? I think it's just the Hobbit all over again since we're dealing with adding new material to 'fill in the gaps', and arguably that was some of the worst part of the Hobbit films.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 05:42 PM.

  7. #4767
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Did you even read what this article talks about? It doesn't stop breathing. It alters blood flow, favoring heart and head. In addition, it's mild or non-existent in adults.
    Yes, I did. Dry drowning uses that a part of that "diving reflex" to cause a laryngospasm that seals the airway. It is possible for that to happen which would mean an unconscious person wouldn't be breathing in water. It is also why a person can drown after they are out of the water.

    Saying that Elves in Tolkiens work are not a genetic copy of Humans in the real world is not a garbage argument. The garbage argument is using real world human genetics and abilities to argue for why an elf is required to function the same way. Your own dismissal of a realistic way shows that you are just grasping at straws of an argument. It also questions your ability to spot better writing if you dismiss anything you don't like as "bad" rather then being able to separate "I don't like it" from "It is bad writing.

    Remember we have a man falling from the sky without dying. Subjectively using realism to hate on the show is silly. It is meant to be fiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InfiniteCharger View Post
    The Jackson Film did not make a completely different story with completely different character arcs and events.
    It did. It makes introduced different character roles, excluded others, skipped some, and did whatever it needed to in order to make an adaptation that Mr. Jackson was happy with. You can't just dismiss those changes to canon simply because you like it. Well you can but it shows the hypocrisy in your statements.

    Anybody with the rights to making a Tolkien product has already been allowed to create a "multiverse". You act as if Amazon is the first company to produce something that diverges from Tolkien-canon. The Lego video games created another universe. War in the North. Lord of the Rings Online. Shadow of War and Shadow of Mordor. And more that I haven't listed.

    All you keep doing is how you are selectively applying arguments to single out Amazon while ignoring any other case where your argument applies. That is hatred for the sake of hatred.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  8. #4768
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Remember we have a man falling from the sky without dying. Subjectively using realism to hate on the show is silly. It is meant to be fiction.
    It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

    Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.

  9. #4769
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

    Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.
    Don't give them any ideals now, or we will have flying Galadriel who shots fireballs out of her eyes and bolts of lightning from her arse before we know it. Least then she would be closer in height at 7 feet tall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  10. #4770
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.
    Sigh. Indicate where Tolkien created internal rules to cover this? As I said in a earlier response Tolkien never went in-depth into the capabilities of elves. Based on the real world it is possible for a submerged unconscious person to not have water in their lungs once brought back up to the surface. Saying it is fiction does mean that an elf could suddenly fly because those internal rules you brought up are created by the author.

    The amusing part is the mother of Elrond did develop the ability to fly so she could visit his father. It was of course in the form of shape shifting into a bird but it is still an example of Tolkien "breaking internal rules" to fit the narrative he wanted to tell. An elf couldn't fly so he made a reason that allowed her to.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #4771
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

    Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.
    to add to this:

    Usually our world and our references is the fall back when things aren't mentioned.
    There's a reason why people point to the ears when describing elfs, and then use adjectives such as "beautiful" to explain the rest because it's assumed that the rest is that of a human. If fiction doesn't specify characteristics or traits or just about anything on how anything works, the fall back should be reality... not "welp, anything goes".

    If the show wants to add traits such as their breathing underwater (ridiculous thing to argue about btw) is different to humans they need to establish that or address it.
    Fact is they didn't, so the fall back is the same as humans.
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  12. #4772
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    If the show wants to add traits such as their breathing underwater (ridiculous thing to argue about btw) is different to humans they need to establish that or address it. Fact is they didn't, so the fall back is the same as humans.
    Again. It is possible for an unconscious person to not have water in their lungs after being submerged. If you take this to mean breathing underwater that is your fault and is not actually something the show or myself is representing. So according to your own fall back the scene is perfectly fine yet I'm sure you'll find some way to shirk that conclusion.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #4773
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Sigh. Indicate where Tolkien created internal rules to cover this? As I said in a earlier response Tolkien never went in-depth into the capabilities of elves. Based on the real world it is possible for a submerged unconscious person to not have water in their lungs once brought back up to the surface. Saying it is fiction does mean that an elf could suddenly fly because those internal rules you brought up are created by the author.

    The amusing part is the mother of Elrond did develop the ability to fly so she could visit his father. It was of course in the form of shape shifting into a bird but it is still an example of Tolkien "breaking internal rules" to fit the narrative he wanted to tell. An elf couldn't fly so he made a reason that allowed her to.
    I'm not talking about Tolkien's rules, I am talking about the SHOWS internal rules for its intended fiction.

    Galadriel being depicted as drowning isn't sourced from Tolkien's work, it's a liberty taken by the show creators for the show.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 06:23 PM.

  14. #4774
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sure I can agree that Tolkien didn’t like the idea of a multiverse but even when he was alive he started building the path for one when he okayed a movie even though he later wrote that whole letter about it and it never came about in his life time.

    As to the modern day though the multiverse ship sailed in the 80’s and it’s only gotten further out to sea with every new adaption, the chances of it coming back to port is non existent.
    The point was it wasn't what he wanted, but he is now dead. Doesn't change that it is not what he wanted.

  15. #4775
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It still needs to establish and stick to internal rules otherwise it breaks its own suspension of disbelief.

    Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.
    What are the established rules for how Elves respond to being submerged in water while unconscious?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Don't give them any ideals now, or we will have flying Galadriel who shots fireballs out of her eyes and bolts of lightning from her arse before we know it. Least then she would be closer in height at 7 feet tall.
    That might please the people crying that Galadriel shouldn't carry a sword because she should be a mage slinging spells from the back.

  16. #4776
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Just saying it's fiction doesn't mean they could have an Elf suddenly fly and pretend that it's a completely normal thing in the universe because 'it's meant to fiction and Elves aren't real'. There are still rules and boundaries at play. It's more a matter of how they choose to establish them, and how far they push it before it gets too unbelievable.
    Didn’t some one once fly a boat to kill a huge dragon? No idea the explanation behind it but it wouldn’t be completely out of left field if it could be done on people some way.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #4777
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It doesn't really matter what he envisioned for LOTR, we have to accept that this is a brand that has been in the hands of many different creatives and there is no one key visionary holding it together. Any visual medium will merely be an adaptation of the works, and never going to be a canonical continuation.

    Same can be said of Star Wars and its relations to George Lucas. Lucas never intended there to be branching 'timelines', but that's pretty much what happened with the novels and games taking the story well past what he originally made for the films. And they had to archive that all as a part of the 'Legends' brand just to try and recontextualize canon. And even then, the current canon is quite fucked up by the Sequel trilogy and all its associated products. The only good thing is that there are certain creatives like Filoni who are keen on keeping certain things canonical, and bridge explanations between things that might have strayed too far from the source.

    We don't really have a multimedia visionary for Tolkien's work, considering most Tolkien experts are the likes of historians and curators who would not seek to expand on the material at all. And frankly, Peter Jackson happens to be one of the only creatives people trust, but some of that good faith also got squandered with the Hobbit films so it's hard to say. Would Peter Jackson's Rings of Power been that much more better than what we have now? I think it's just the Hobbit all over again since we're dealing with adding new material to 'fill in the gaps', and arguably that was some of the worst part of the Hobbit films.
    If these kinds of stories are no longer following Tolkien then it begs the question of why even call it Tolkien at that point? You are only simply watering down the brand because the brand is Tolkien and his work and his attention to detail and excellence in writing. Without that there is nothing. Do you think ROP will be remembered as an excellent piece of fantasy that should be admired years down the road in its own right? It only leads to a path of diminishing returns as people realize that the Tolkien estate no longer cares about its IP and is allowing people to do almost whatever the want with less than stellar results.

  18. #4778
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What are the established rules for how Elves respond to being submerged in water while unconscious?
    They established that she would have drowned if she were not saved. That is what the show establishes by showing her struggle and gasp for air as she reaches the surface. These are the same basic rules of 'biology' that humans exhibit if one were to be put in a similar situation.

    And was she truly unconscious underwater? That's debatable, since all we see is her in a 'daze', and we don't really know if she was knocked out. She seemed fine as soon as she made it to the surface, and not carried onto the raft as though she would have been completely water logged if she were completely out.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-09-14 at 06:36 PM.

  19. #4779
    I have to say that it's a testimony to how determined people are to hate this show regardless that we're getting wikipedia links to attack the "unconscious person rescued from drowning" trope.

  20. #4780
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm not talking about Tolkien's rules, I am talking about the SHOWS internal rules for its intended fiction.
    It doesn't contradict the internal rules of the show so either way you are still wrong lol.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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