Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Dhrizzle]

Think it's the other way around... one made a comment about how being unconscious underwater would make her instantly drown in an off-shoot remark and the defenders came in wiki links and arguments that we don't know how elfs breathing work underwater.

It's a ridiculous thing to argue about, I agree... but here we are.

Ah that's right, it started with disbelief someone could be dragged down by a piece of wood and really snowballed from there.

I'm just glad there are some more heavily moderated places on the internet where people are discussing the actual show, like who Halbrand and the Stranger might be.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It was Elrond's dad Earandil, he returned to the Valar with a Silmaril and sparked the War of Wrath. He was given a boat and set to fly across the sky with the Silmaril on his brow, effectively becoming the Morning/Evening star. Later he assaulted Morgoth's greatest dragon with a flock of birds.

IIRC his wife could turn into a big white bird and flew to meet him as he passed her tower. Incidentally if you trace the path of the Stranger's meteor and track it all the way back he may have passed close to her tower

Man if his wife could turn into a bird and he was fighting with a flock of birds it makes me wonder if Elrond has a bunch of feathered siblings he wasn’t invited to hang out with.

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, then that may be implied to be magical/technological, and we know that magical enchantments do exist in the world such as rings that grant one invisibility. It doesn't mean flight or invisibility are a natural part of a being's physiology.

Well ya not part of there physiology but flight could still be possible in theory if enchantments could be placed directly on living things, no idea if that’s the case though.

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Just face it, some posters here will do anything to tear down Tolkien and prop up this garbage show. Makes you wonder if there pockets are being greased by how ardent they attack any slight against the show, even shit as stupid as an Elf trying to swim the equivalent of the Atlantic Ocean.

“People talk about Tolkiens work in any way”

“bledgor, STOP TEARING DOWN TOLKIEN”

Like I know your upset people keep bringing up Tolkiens actual work and it doesn’t agree with you but that doesn’t mean every time some one mentions any thing from outside the show they are attacking the man.

[Triceron]

How did the work of fiction get those internal rules if they did not create them to allow whatever to be possible? Lmao.

The show is literally establishing it IN THAT MOMENT.

You're implying that they could do anything while my point is they aren't just doing 'whatever is possible' because of what we see in that very scene.

Like if someone said "The show could have had Galadriel kill the Snow Troll with a fireball" it would be outside of the rules that the show has established, since we never know Galadriel being capable of throwing fireballs. If the show did show her doing so, then we know that Galadriel is capable of that kind of magic, and could expect her to use it in the future. These are rules to the world being established, understand?

Just because Fireballs are fictional doesn't mean we can start talking about Galadriel throwing fireballs as a means of implied outcomes to the show. The show has to establish that before we talk about it. Galadriel isn't the Meteor Man, she isn't Gandalf. Just because it's fiction doesn't mean there are no rules.

If Elves are supposed to be resistant to drowning, then the show should establish that somehow. And as I'm pointing out, the show implies they drown the same way a human would, meaning there's no reason (based on what the show establishes) to assume some other 'fictional' outcome where they wouldn't.

[rhorle]

The show is literally establishing it IN THAT MOMENT.

How many works of fiction release a primer of their internal rules before hand? We always find out internal rules the moment they first appear in a work of fiction. Your own example indicates you don't understand the internal rules of a work of fiction. If the show had Galadriel use a fireball it wouldn't have violated any of its own rules at that point in the show. Because it never established that it was something she, or other elves, couldn't do.

You are also indicating you are trying to use Tolkien "internal rules" while you previously stated you were talking only about those of the show. We know that Galadriel, Gandalf, and others can't do X in Tolkien's work because of the rules Tolkien established. The show hasn't yet finished airing so there is no way to know what all of the internal rules are.

A work of fiction makes things up as it goes. If it changes what the consumers know about the internal rules then it changes it. The author of that fiction can explain it with an in-lore explanation or just leave it as a contradiction. Rings of Power has yet to violate any of their own internal rules and thus haven't had to explain or contradict anything so far.

[Triceron]

How many works of fiction release primer of their internal rules before hand? We always find out internal rules the moment they first appear in a work of fiction. Your own example indicates you don't understand the internal rules of a work of fiction. If the show had Galadriel use a fireball it wouldn't have violated any of its own rules at that point in the show. Because it never established that it was something she, or other elves, couldn't do.

You are also indicating you are trying to use Tolkien "internal rules" while you previously stated you were talking only about those of the show. We know that Galadriel, Gandalf, and others can't do X in Tolkien's work because of the rules Tolkien established. The show hasn't yet finished airing so there is no way to know what all of the internal rules are.

It again shows that you argue just to be contrary with out understanding that a work of fiction makes things up as it goes. If it changes what the consumers know about the internal rules then it changes it. The author of that fiction can explain it with an in-lore explanation or just leave it as a contradiction.

It's not contrary at all. It's directly addressing your literal answer to applying 'realism' to a work of fiction. I'm literally outlining that 'realism' is being established by the show itself, by depicting their characters a certain way.

If we have a scene where Galadriel is show to be drowning and implied that she would drown if not for help, then that is the rules being established right then and there for what a 'realism' is for an Elf being dragged underwater. If there are any alternative to the situation, then it needs to be established by the show.

I'm not making any comment that this particular scene is contradictory, I'm making a point that your comment on 'realism doesn't apply' isn't some universal standard, because realism is being set by the show. If they have some future scene of them in the water again and Galadriel survives underwater completely fine in another 'drowning' situation, then it would be contradictory to what's established earlier, and would break suspense of disbelief. There definitely are rules to fiction, and it's not just a matter of 'well it's fine because it's fiction'.

The show has been establishing that Elves are not all that physiologically different from Humans. Elves are merely more long-lived and implied to have better physical attributes from the common Human, otherwise they still bleed and die when their throats get cut or drown when deprived from oxygen for too long. It's not like they'd suddenly be compared to Meteor Man, who we know very little about right now and is being established as being neither Human or Elf or any race we know about so far.

[Dhrizzle]

Well ya not part of there physiology but flight could still be possible in theory if enchantments could be placed directly on living things, no idea if that’s the case though.

Tolkien wasn't above pulling our the Valar as literal deus-ex-machinas. Take Elwing (the bird lady/Elrond's mum mentioned above) and the reason she could turn into a bird. Towards the end of the First Age she was in possession of a Silmaril and being pursued by Fëanoreans. She decided instead of letting them get the gem she would hurl herself into the sea, killing herself and losing it forever. At the last moment Ulmo decided "lol, nope" and turned her into a massive bird. No precedent for it, no little breadcrumbs establishing that she had an affinity for bird form, just the fact Tolkien was very much of the "it's magic, I don't have to explain shit" school (although there is probably an exceedingly detailed description of the mechanics and reasons behind it buried somewhere in a letter to a random fan in Norwich.)

[rhorle]

If we have a scene where Galadriel is show to be drowning and implied that she would drown if not for help, then that is the rules being established right then and there for what a 'realism' is for an Elf being dragged underwater. If there are any alternative to the situation, then it needs to be established by the show.

Which contradicts nothing I've said. As nothing has been established that an elves lungs will automatically fill with water. Realism doesn't apply because it is a work of fiction. You keep trying to argue that we have to use real world "internal rules" for a work of fiction. That ignores how the author of that fiction creates any rules that they feel like and it not explicitly stated it is an unknown. It doesn't automatically become "real life rules". We can use "real life" to infer how something might work but that doesn't mean it is automatically the case if the author of the fiction does not give an explanation.

In the case of the show the writers established that lungs don't automatically fill with water. It didn't have to do so before hand because it did so during that scene. It is fiction and everything is created including those internal rules. So an author can create or change those rules any time the feel like it.

[VMSmith]

A work of fiction makes things up as it goes. If it changes what the consumers know about the internal rules then it changes it.

This is what poor writing does and it doesn't tend to hold up very well. If a story is not internally consistent then readers/viewers end up rejecting it because they become painfully aware that they are interacting with a story that's not real. It's the difference between Breaking Bad and a typical CW superhero show, which change the rules as they go along.

[Dhrizzle]

This is what poor writing does and it doesn't tend to hold up very well. If a story is not internally consistent then readers/viewers end up rejecting it because they become painfully aware that they are interacting with a story that's not real. It's the difference between Breaking Bad and a typical CW superhero show, which change the rules as they go along.

So what is the inconsistency here? If Elves had been shown drowning instantly when unconscious then sure they were changing the rules but I don't recall any examples of that happening.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Tolkien wasn't above pulling our the Valar as literal deus-ex-machinas. Take Elwing (the bird lady/Elrond's mum mentioned above) and the reason she could turn into a bird. Towards the end of the First Age she was in possession of a Silmaril and being pursued by Fëanoreans. She decided instead of letting them get the gem she would hurl herself into the sea, killing herself and losing it forever. At the last moment Ulmo decided "lol, nope" and turned her into a massive bird. No precedent for it, no little breadcrumbs establishing that she had an affinity for bird form, just the fact Tolkien was very much of the "it's magic, I don't have to explain shit" school (although there is probably an exceedingly detailed description of the mechanics and reasons behind it buried somewhere in a letter to a random fan in Norwich.)

Huh, so all of the blusters about Glad not even being able to swim to shore or drowning ect is just kinda pointless isn’t it?

Like by Tolkien own rules people can just turn into birds out of no where when the gods/Demi gods want them to so being able to actually make it to land or not take on water isn’t even that far fetched if the demi gods want her to compared to turning into animals.

[rhorle]

This is what poor writing does and it doesn't tend to hold up very well.

I'm curious if you think Tolkien's works are examples of poor writing? As he was constantly revising things including wanting to change the planet to always being not-flat after the fact. New rules can be made up on the spot with or without reasoning. Up could become down if the writer wants to and it does not become bad writing just because they did so.

Breaking bad is not a good example because it has "continuity errors". Does that mean in its fictional universe a popsicle can magically reappear after being eaten? No but in theory it could because that is how it was shown on the show. We know these to be "errors" because we are told they are. That doesn't mean they actually have to be and there could have been a in-show rationale that we haven't yet encountered.

Did tolkien tell us that Gandalf would survive his encounter with the Baelrog before hand? Was the Jackson movies bad because we didn't know that prior to in the film? Didn't it just "up and change" the meaning of death to those who were experiencing the story for the first time with the movies?

[Triceron]

Which contradicts nothing I've said. As nothing has been established that an elves lungs will automatically fill with water. Realism doesn't apply because it is a work of fiction. You keep trying to argue that we have to use real world "internal rules" for a work of fiction. That ignores how the author of that fiction creates any rules that they feel like and it not explicitly stated it is an unknown. It doesn't automatically become "real life rules". We can use "real life" to infer how something might work but that doesn't mean it is automatically the case if the author of the fiction does not give an explanation.

It doesn't have to be Real World rules, but if the fiction establishes it as being similar or the same as the real world, then that is what it is. And such is true of Elves dying from blood loss. These are real world rules because the show has chosen to portray Elves dying in this way. That is how the 'author' has chosen to depict Elf mortality.

In the case of the show the writers established that lungs don't automatically fill with water. It didn't have to do so before hand because it did so during that scene. It is fiction and everything is created including those internal rules. So an author can create or change those rules any time the feel like it.

Yes, you're absolutely right here and I am not disagreeing with this point. I'm just making a clarification that you can't just point at Meteor man existing and say 'Well remember this is all a work of fiction' to handwave any rules being established by the show. The Elves aren't being depicted the same way as the Meteor Man.

[Dhrizzle]

Huh, so all of the blusters about Glad not even being able to swim to shore or drowning ect is just kinda pointless isn’t it?

Like by Tolkien own rules people can just turn into birds out of no where when the gods/Demi gods want them to so being able to actually make it to land or not take on water isn’t even that far fetched if the demo gods want her to compared to turning into animals.

When talking to Halbrand or Isildur (I forget which, long-brown-haired bearded white guys all look alike to me) Galadriel outright says their meeting was the result of one of the powers of the world.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When talking to Halbrand or Isildur (I forget which, long-brown-haired bearded white guys all look alike to me) Galadriel outright says their meeting was the result of one of the powers of the world.

Not knowing that the sea could/would turn people into birds I figured her and Númenorian’s saying that and “the sea is always right” was just some generic fate stuff but it sounds more likely now that they are just right on the money which makes her jumping off the boat a lot more reasonable if she was expecting divine help one way or another.

[rhorle]

Yes, you're absolutely right here and I am not disagreeing with this point. I'm just making a clarification that you can't just point at Meteor man existing and say 'Well remember this is all a work of fiction' to handwave any rules being established by the show. The Elves aren't being depicted the same way as the Meteor Man.

We can point at Meteor man to establish that realism might not apply because it is an example of where the fiction diverged from realism. Hence it might diverge from realism in another spot. We weren't warned before hand for Meteor Man so we don't have to be warned before hand for water in the lungs. It is fiction. It can be anything the author wants because the authority on those internal rules is the author.

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Not knowing that the sea could/would turn people into birds I figured her and Númenorian’s saying that and “the sea is always right” was just some generic fate stuff but it sounds more likely now that they are just right on the money which makes her jumping off the boat a lot more reasonable if she was expecting divine help one way or another.

I don't think she expected it. There is also a case where Tolkien had "one of the gods" save an elf by having a wave rescue only that elf and carry it all the way to land. So she might have hoped she would have divine help but I don't think it is the case that she knew.

[Triceron]

We can point at Meteor man to establish that realism might not apply because it is an example of where the fiction diverged from realism. Hence it might diverge from realism in another spot. We weren't warned before hand for Meteor Man so we don't have to be warned before hand for water in the lungs. It is fiction. It can be anything the author wants because the authority on those internal rules is the author.

Meteor Man doesn't actually conflict with the internal established rules for how Elf and Human physiology works. It's an apples and oranges argument which is literally what I was pointing out here.

Just because Apples don't have to all look the same or be a single color suddenly mean they can become Oranges. There are still rules in this world that are establishing a difference between Meteor Man and any other race we've been introduced to so far. There are still rules that apply to even Meteor Man, we simply aren't aware of what those limits would be yet.

Just because Meteor Man exists doesn't mean Elves can suddenly fly, make sense?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't think she expected it. There is also a case where Tolkien had "one of the gods" save an elf by having a wave rescue only that elf and carry it all the way to land. So she might have hoped she would have divine help but I don't think it is the case that she knew.

Comes across alot as a leap of faith for me with the further context. She doesn’t know for sure she’ll get help but she’s certain that she’s right so has faith it will work out even if she doesn’t know in what form her salvation will take.

[rhorle]

Meteor Man doesn't actually conflict with the internal established rules for how Elf and Human physiology works.

This is an textbook example of you being contrary to be contrary. Because you claim that an elf or human could fall from the sky in a fireball and that the show was established they are that capable. Meteor Man existing means that elves could suddenly fly if the author wants to. Because the author is not bound by only displaying what is real.

The rules are only ever what the author wants the rules to be. What is stopping an author from changing the rules they wrote to allow for elves to suddenly fly?

[Triceron]

This is an textbook example of you being contrary to be contrary. Because you claim that an elf or human could fall from the sky in a fireball and that the show was established they are that capable. Meteor Man existing means that elves could suddenly fly if the author wants to. Because the author is not bound by only displaying what is real.

The rules are only ever what the author wants the rules to be. What is stopping an author from changing the rules they wrote to allow for elves to suddenly fly?

Nothing prevents them from changing the rules, but if they are not consistent with anything that was pre-established in the narrative THEN the suspension of disbelief for the audience is subject to be broken. That is generally seen as a result of bad or inconsistent writing.

If Elves suddenly started flying or dropping out of the sky then yeah, people are gonna go WTF. And yes, Meteor Man is definitely a WTF moment but it's framed in a way where they intentionally leave it mysterious so we don't know who or what he is. If they confirm him to BE an Elf or Human then yeah, that would fuck up quite a lot of the established world wouldn't it? Right now, we don't know enough to even judge if he is, which is why the suspension of disbelief is still intact.

There is no case where anything goes just because it's a work of fiction and anything can be done at the behest of the Author at any time. That is where criticisms come in to specifically point out inconsistencies. Just like the whole reason Tolkien put this to paper in the first place, because Christopher Tolkien was pointing out inconsistencies in his descriptions in the color of Bilbo's door or the ornamentation on Thorin's hood.

I think I've made it clear why Meteor Man is not a good example of waving away internal rules of 'realism' just because it is fiction. Meteor Man doesn't contradict anything that has been established prior, because there is no confirmation of who or what he really is.

[rhorle]

Nothing prevents them from changing the rules, but if they are not consistent with anything that was pre-established in the narrative THEN the suspension of disbelief for the audience is subject to be broken.

So if nothing prevents them from changing the rules then they can be changed at any time including making elves suddenly be able to fly. You again defeat your own contrary opinion with your own argument. Lmao.

And yes, Meteor Man is definitely a WTF moment but it's framed in a way where they intentionally leave it mysterious so we don't know who or what he is.

This shows the double standard that is being applied between something you like and something you wouldn't like. A man falling from the sky is mysterious and an perfectly acceptable sudden change. However elves flying would be an unacceptable sudden change. Inconsistencies in the description of object is not relevant to this discussion. Those are continuity errors and not internal rules.