Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Sialina]

South American natives live in deep dark forests and they have brown skin. And we are talking about dwarves and elves here, so that dwarven princess may be black for completely different reason than Men.



What makes you think we wont see them?



The important word is "fantasy". This is not the Middle Ages in Europe. This is Middle Earth. Where we can see different sentient species living near each other. If the show was set in France in 1280, I would agree with you.



It was indeed dangerous and time consuming, but also very, very lucrative. Ever heard about trade or the Silk Road? Also, two hundred years ago, people were moving around all around the world. Most countries are not as "hermetic" as China...

We don't know enough about the show to draw conclusions about the choices the producers have made.

The casting tells us enough of what the producers intend, that combined with the quote from the director saying they want to reflect the real world.

South American natives have brown skin, that is great, because they live near the equator, and as we've established before, that makes your skin more likely to gain color, check, you made my point.

If we get to see more about the men of the east that would be great, the inclusion of racial elves and hobits makes me doubt we will though, but I could be wrong and that would be good.

Fantasy doesn't mean you get to disregard internal logic, if you are familiar with Tolkiens works, which I can see that you are not, the history of middle earth was written as an alternative British history, as such it's set in northern Europe. If further draws inspiration from Scandinavian folk lore, and having a black elf in Scandinavian folk lore is about as racially sensitive as having a white witch doctor in a movie about the Zulu.

Further, if your work of fiction is shown to be a work of fiction it loses entertainment value for many people, the secret to a good story is, the author is always in control, if you want to you can end any story or conflict with a single sentence, the key to great writing is to do it in a way that the audience forgets that the author is there.
We all know that the script writer decides if the protagonist of any given story lives or dies, but a skilled author or movie maker can make you forget that.

About your final point, yes, trade is very lucrative it's in fact very very lucrative, that does not mean you get villages set in the middle of the forest with different ethnic makeups. You try traveling China at some point, the very place where the silk road originated from, and I'll tell you as someone that is Chinese, once you get out of Beijing/Shanghai, you will have a hard time finding foreigners, instead as you travel east you will find the racial makeup slowly shift, but you won't find villages of people just randomly being half inner mongolian half han.
I also mentioned port cities in my original post which you conveniently left out, as you know it rendered your argument impotent, because that is how most trade was carried out over vast distances.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The character is described including their race so yup it's tied to their race.

lets try this again, as a basic rule as long as the character’s story isn’t tied to there race.

I couldn't care less about character Descriptions unless they tie into the story of the character.

[Yadryonych]

As a black man I wish they could've added a story based on the people Far Harad and shed some light on the their rebellion against Sauron, hell they could've given a name to the Haradrim that lead the rebellion and the 2 Blue wizards. Whoever wrote script and cast the roles ignored a gold mine of possible stories that could've been a hit. But I'll be fair and reserve my judgement until after I see a few episodes.

Pretty much this. Ignoring entire nations of south/east just to blackface a few dwarves/elves is a lazy shitwriting @Rennadrel is talking about. They literally entrusted the writing to two interns and it fucking shows

[Twdft]

Earth really needs to get invaded by aliens for humans to realize we are all one and stop giving a shit about our skin colors.

[Nerovar]

Well, Southrons are Men, so we can compare, unlike Dwarves. But for all we know, Southrons were black because their ancestors were created black. Then they moved south. Again, Middle Earth is a mythological world. Water exists because Ulmo imagined it in the Music of Ilúvatar, same with the trees, animals, minerals, wind, etc. Arda's history spans a few ten thousand years, not billions. When things change, it's usually because of the influence of the powers of evil.

You see, this logic doesn't really hold up for several reasons. First off, why would Men be comparable to real humans but not Dwarfs when both are of equally "magical" origins? Why wouldn't Dwarfs behave in an analogous way? Also where is it mentioned that the Southrons' ancestors were created black? Secondly, if dark skin was a common feature in the north-west of Middle-Earth (which resembles the north-west of medieval Europe in everything but name) then why do we see it as a feature of the "other" in passages describing Southrons from the point of view of a Rohirrim? Here's what medieavalist and leading expert on Tolkien Tom Shippey had to say on the matter:

The mention in "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" of "black men like half-trolls" certainly sounds racist. I think I would say here that Tolkien at this point is trying to write like a medieval chronicler, and when medieval Europeans first encountered sub-Saharan Africans, they were genuinely confused about them, and rather frightened. As Tolkien pointed out in his early scholarly works, the ancient English seemed to have a belief in fire-demons, who naturally enough had skin like soot - their word for them, harwan, is related to Latin carbo, "soot", or carbon. An Anglo-Saxon meeting an African for the first time might then really wonder (for a moment, from a distance) whether this was a demon from his own mythology. This doesn't mean that Tolkien shared the mythology, or the mistake.

I mean, for fuck's sake. Tolkien's work was characterised as racist for decades exactly because of passages like this and the overall "eurocentrism" that permeates his works - after all the man was trying to write an Anglo-Saxon mythology - and now you're telling me that it has always been an ethnically diverse setting and all of these perceived problems were just imaginary to begin with?

The absence of the Scouring of the Shire is a far greater change (albeit necessary for the movie) than the presence of a dark skinned elf...

Both are certainly minor changes compared to compressing thousands of years of history into a single human lifespan (as they are going to do with the show).

[Frontenac]

The casting tells us enough of what the producers intend, that combined with the quote from the director saying they want to reflect the real world.

South American natives have brown skin, that is great, because they live near the equator, and as we've established before, that makes your skin more likely to gain color, check, you made my point.

If we get to see more about the men of the east that would be great, the inclusion of racial elves and hobits makes me doubt we will though, but I could be wrong and that would be good.

Fantasy doesn't mean you get to disregard internal logic, if you are familiar with Tolkiens works, which I can see that you are not, the history of middle earth was written as an alternative British history, as such it's set in northern Europe. If further draws inspiration from Scandinavian folk lore, and having a black elf in Scandinavian folk lore is about as racially sensitive as having a white witch doctor in a movie about the Zulu.

Further, if your work of fiction is shown to be a work of fiction it loses entertainment value for many people, the secret to a good story is, the author is always in control, if you want to you can end any story or conflict with a single sentence, the key to great writing is to do it in a way that the audience forgets that the author is there.
We all know that the script writer decides if the protagonist of any given story lives or dies, but a skilled author or movie maker can make you forget that.

About your final point, yes, trade is very lucrative it's in fact very very lucrative, that does not mean you get villages set in the middle of the forest with different ethnic makeups. You try traveling China at some point, the very place where the silk road originated from, and I'll tell you as someone that is Chinese, once you get out of Beijing/Shanghai, you will have a hard time finding foreigners, instead as you travel east you will find the racial makeup slowly shift, but you won't find villages of people just randomly being half inner mongolian half han.
I also mentioned port cities in my original post which you conveniently left out, as you know it rendered your argument impotent, because that is how most trade was carried out over vast distances.

I am well versed in Tolkien work, thank you. I just don't give it the same level of "sanctity" as some people. It is indeed a British myth. So what? His Elves are inspired by Scandinavian Elves, but they are not Scandinavian. Tolkien even regretted giving them the name "Elves". Same for the Dwarves, who were also considered "alfr" by the Norse. LotR is not about the Scandinavians, unlike that movie about the Zulu. And yes, any work of fiction must follow its internal logic, which is not necessarily our logic.

As I said, not every place was/is as hermetic as China. Take the Mediterranean basin. Or India. There were places that were quite diverse because of, yes, trade but also migrations, conquests, etc. I mean there were Jewish communities all over the place during the Roman Empire and the ages that followed. People can move alot when there is a necessity. So your idea that people didn't move 200 years ago because it was too long or costly is just plain wrong. I mean, my ancestors settled in Canada from France 360 years ago. And they were poor.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It's European fantasy. You expect it to be about Europeans. Do you make Journey to the West without Chinese people? Does the Tale of Genji need Romans shoehorned in somewhere?

[Frontenac]

You see, this logic doesn't really hold up for several reasons. First off, why would Men be comparable to real humans but not Dwarfs when both are of equally "magical" origins? Why wouldn't Dwarfs behave in an analogous way? Also where is it mentioned that the Southrons' ancestors were created black?

Nowhere. Precisely. In the first case, I was just stating the fact that Men and Dwarves are not the same species. They don't even have the same origins. So why should they behave in an analogous way? But we are Men, so we can compare. But even then, since Men were not the product of evolution in Middle Earth, nothing precludes the Southrons from being created black. Or not.

Secondly, if dark skin was a common feature in the north-west of Middle-Earth (which resembles the north-west of medieval Europe in everything but name) then why do we see it as a feature of the "other" in passages describing Southrons from the point of view of a Rohirrim? Here's what medieavalist and leading expert on Tolkien Tom Shippey had to say on the matter:

I mean, for fuck's sake. Tolkien's work was characterised as racist for decades exactly because of passages like this and the overall "eurocentrism" that permeates his works - after all the man was trying to write an Anglo-Saxon mythology - and now you're telling me that it has always been an ethnically diverse setting and all of these perceived problems were just imaginary to begin with?

I'm not saying that at all! And I don't get the impression that the show will be that ethnically diverse. The presence of one brown-skin elf does not make it an ethnically diverse setting... Or maybe you prefer that they show black people and asiatic people exclusively as servants of Evil, like in the books? And let's not forget that the Númenorians had settlements south of Middle Earth, near Harad during the Second Age.

Both are certainly minor changes compared to compressing thousands of years of history into a single human lifespan (as they are going to do with the show).

Thematically, I still believe that the omission of the Scouring of the Shire is a more important change than the compression of thousands of years of history into a single human lifespan. In the Hobbit, they did it in a few days. And which human lifespan, I wonder? It still can be rather long if he's Númenorian...

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It's European fantasy. You expect it to be about Europeans. Do you make Journey to the West without Chinese people? Does the Tale of Genji need Romans shoehorned in somewhere?

I wouldn't fret if there was one white or black actor or two.

[Sialina]

I am well versed in Tolkien work, thank you. I just don't give it the same level of "sanctity" as some people. It is indeed a British myth. So what? His Elves are inspired by Scandinavian Elves, but they are not Scandinavian. Tolkien even regretted giving them the name "Elves". Same for the Dwarves, who were also considered "alfr" by the Norse. LotR is not about the Scandinavians, unlike that movie about the Zulu. And yes, any work of fiction must follow its internal logic, which is not necessarily our logic.

As I said, not every place was/is as hermetic as China. Take the Mediterranean basin. Or India. There were places that were quite diverse because of, yes, trade but also migrations, conquests, etc. I mean there were Jewish communities all over the place during the Roman Empire and the ages that followed. People can move alot when there is a necessity. So your idea that people didn't move 200 years ago because it was too long or costly is just plain wrong. I mean, my ancestors settled in Canada from France 360 years ago. And they were poor.

I wouldn't fret if there was one white or black actor or two.

Ah, so you don't care about Tolkiens stories, but you are well versed, got it.
Yes elves are Scandinavian folk lore, and should be respected just like Zulu folk lore, or any lore you use, Tolkien specifically drew inspiration from the elves from nothern folklore, if he wanted to call them Elves or something else matters very little.

Second, yes, along routes of trade and ports, like I mentioned originally, there would be some mixing, there are no elves traveling from the south in Tolkiens works though, the elves all exist in the northern regions or in Valinor. As for hobits, they are slow to change and not adventurous, described very clearly so at the start of lord of the rings, I don't see them running a trade empire, do you?
And you just further proved my point, your ancestors moved to Canada, did they visit back home wherever you came from? Did they go back and forth trading? Did they build next to the Esikmo population? No, it was a one way trip, that tells you how hard it was to travel back then, and they still only made it to a place where everyone else had the same skin color with slight variations, that should tell you something.

Who ever is scared of black actors? Some of the very best are black, legends like Morgan Freeman, Idris Elba, Samuel L Jackson, just race swapping some elves and dwarves though? Lazy. How about adapting something about black people by black people if you want to have plenty of black actors? Why not make a movie or a series about Rage of dragons by Evan Winters? One of my all time favorite fantasy books, and please, no white actors because the cast is all black in the book and sticking random whites or asians in there would be as stupid as sticking blacks into the elven cultures in Tolkiens works.

[bledgor]

Ah, so you don't care about Tolkiens stories, but you are well versed, got it.
Yes elves are Scandinavian folk lore, and should be respected just like Zulu folk lore, or any lore you use, Tolkien specifically drew inspiration from the elves from nothern folklore, if he wanted to call them Elves or something else matters very little.

Second, yes, along routes of trade and ports, like I mentioned originally, there would be some mixing, there are no elves traveling from the south in Tolkiens works though, the elves all exist in the northern regions or in Valinor. As for hobits, they are slow to change and not adventurous, described very clearly so at the start of lord of the rings, I don't see them running a trade empire, do you?
And you just further proved my point, your ancestors moved to Canada, did they visit back home wherever you came from? Did they go back and forth trading? Did they build next to the Esikmo population? No, it was a one way trip, that tells you how hard it was to travel back then, and they still only made it to a place where everyone else had the same skin color with slight variations, that should tell you something.

Who ever is scared of black actors? Some of the very best are black, legends like Morgan Freeman, Idris Elba, Samuel L Jackson, just race swapping some elves and dwarves though? Lazy. How about adapting something about black people by black people if you want to have plenty of black actors? Why not make a movie or a series about Rage of dragons by Evan Winters? One of my all time favorite fantasy books, and please, no white actors because the cast is all black in the book and sticking random whites or asians in there would be as stupid as sticking blacks into the elven cultures in Tolkiens works.

You expect them to adapt/or create a work with black people as the core(please ignore black panthar)? Nope, only thing Hollywood can offer is tokenism, and hey you better celebrate it or you are racist, I mean they forcefully included a minority, look at how progressive they are!!

[Frontenac]

Ah, so you don't care about Tolkiens stories, but you are well versed, got it.

So to care about Tolkien stories, I should venerate them as Holy Scriptures? I do love Tolkien stories, but i will NOT treat any change made in adaptation as a desecration.

When Tolkien created the "Elves", he first created their language. Then he thought, hey if there is a language, there must be a people speaking it. So he imagined the Eldar, which he named "Elves". They were inspired by Scandinavian myths, but they were not exactly like them. Like I said, the dwarves are also elves (dark elves) in the Scandinavian mythology. As I mentioned, he regretted calling them Elves. He also wanted to call the Noldor "Gnomes". Fortunately, he changed his mind...

The Eldar were all in the northern parts of Middle Earth and these were travelling westward during the Third Age. But, there was Avari in the east and there is no reason some did not move south. And of those, Tolkien said very little. Since the Hobbits were written as being very sedentary and reclusive (in the end of the Third Age at least), why even bother mentioning them?

My ancestors did not build next to the Inuits (Eskimo is a derogatory term), but they did trade and fought as allies with the Algonquins, Montagnais and Hurons. Which were, gasp, of another race... Yes, it was a one way trip. But only one trip is all you need for peoples of different ethnicities to live next to each other. And mingle.

[Nerovar]

Nowhere. Precisely. In the first case, I was just stating the fact that Men and Dwarves are not the same species. They don't even have the same origins. So why should they behave in an analogous way? But we are Men, so we can compare. But even then, since Men were not the product of evolution in Middle Earth, nothing precludes the Southrons from being created black. Or not.

Men and Hobbits are fairly similar (the physical appearance of the different Hobbit types is described by Tolkien) despite not being related so why would Dwarfs behave that differently? It's not like they're ever described as having glowing skin like the Elves do or anything like it. Effectively what you're telling me it's just a coincidence the ethnic make-up of the world is like that of our own in one case and you can't assume the same holds true for Dwarfs because they're magical creatures (even though humans and Hobbits are magical creatures in this setting as well). So it's really just the "magic exists therefor there is no context to anything" argument again.

I'm not saying that at all! And I don't get the impression that the show will be that ethnically diverse. The presence of one brown-skin elf does not make it an ethnically diverse setting... Or maybe you prefer that they show black people and asiatic people exclusively as servants of Evil, like in the books? And let's not forget that the Númenorians had settlements south of Middle Earth, near Harad during the Second Age.

Well, you're acting like we're talking about just a single, random Dwarf/Elf in the middle of nowhere when this is clearly not the case. We're talking about a princess, presumably of Khazad-dûm (since that's where she is standing in the picture). If the royalty of an ancient Kingdom like that is ethnically diverse, why wouldn't the world at large be?

And yes, the black and asiatic people we know of in Lord of the Rings were overwhelmingly servants of Evil. That is how Tolkien envisioned this world whether we as a 21st century audience like it or not. That doesn't mean you couldn't make a compelling story with characters hailing from Harad especially when the Second Age includes events like the "colonization" of Harad by Númenóreans.

And again, none of this changes the fact that the sight of dark skin was described as bewildering to the people Middle-Earth which basically already renders any discussion of whether or not this is "true" to the source material moot.

Thematically, I still believe that the omission of the Scouring of the Shire is a more important change than the compression of thousands of years of history into a single human lifespan. In the Hobbit, they did it in a few days. And which human lifespan, I wonder? It still can be rather long if he's Númenorian...

This is just silly. Compressing thousands of years of history into a couple of years completely breaks the chronology of many of these events and completely changes their dynamic.

[Kyphael]

These look pretty shit. Just basing it on the aesthetics, I know nothing of the project or its story. Then again, if I want LoTR, I can go back and watch a great trilogy.

[Coniferous]

I wouldn't fret if there was one white or black actor or two.

Agreed. I'm more worried that they mentioned the character that's a single mom and also seeing Galadriel walking around in armor. Those two things are not really themes of Tolkien's work and are very much identified with wokeness. But mostly I'm just so shocked by how screwed up Wheel of Time was that I'm having trouble being optimistic here.

And Elrond as "politically ambitious"... wtf does that even mean. Since when was there political intrigue in Tolkien? Elves largely ruled by inheritance. Elrond was a high ranking elf by right of birth, only behind Gil-Galad.

The only two characters we recognize - Elrond and Galadriel - look pretty different from expected based on canon. Galadriel definitely was a strong female character for Tolkien, but he never (with Eowyn as the exception) had women doing the fighting in books. He gave them powers, like Luthien singing, Melian weaving enchantments that kept out enemies, or Galadriel enchanting the forest to slow down time. But wearing armor and leading battles? Nah...

Edit: reading her biography, she protects the Rohirrim from detection with a white mist. It also states "she had no role in the major wars of the first age". The powers of her ring were "protection, preservation, and concealment"... basically the same as Melian had in Doriath during the first age. During the events of Lord of the Rings, she is with the armies and the power of her ring is important but she's not actually fighting. In the end she throws down the walls of Dol Guldur with her power, just as Luthien did with Minas Tirthi - she's consistent with many other female characters in the series, none of whom were actually wearing armor and fighting.

[Sialina]

So to care about Tolkien stories, I should venerate them as Holy Scriptures? I do love Tolkien stories, but i will NOT treat any change made in adaptation as a desecration.

When Tolkien created the "Elves", he first created their language. Then he thought, hey if there is a language, there must be a people speaking it. So he imagined the Eldar, which he named "Elves". They were inspired by Scandinavian myths, but they were not exactly like them. Like I said, the dwarves are also elves (dark elves) in the Scandinavian mythology. As I mentioned, he regretted calling them Elves. He also wanted to call the Noldor "Gnomes". Fortunately, he changed his mind...

The Eldar were all in the northern parts of Middle Earth and these were travelling westward during the Third Age. But, there was Avari in the east and there is no reason some did not move south. And of those, Tolkien said very little. Since the Hobbits were written as being very sedentary and reclusive (in the end of the Third Age at least), why even bother mentioning them?

My ancestors did not build next to the Inuits (Eskimo is a derogatory term), but they did trade and fought as allies with the Algonquins, Montagnais and Hurons. Which were, gasp, of another race... Yes, it was a one way trip. But only one trip is all you need for peoples of different ethnicities to live next to each other. And mingle.

That is great, now tell me, with elves being immortal, how would their skin makeup change? If either of us moved to Africa, we would get tanned, but it would take many generations of evolutionary pressure before we got darker pigmentation. As I'm sure you are aware, elves did not exactly have generations of Children quickly. Hobits also make little sense, as they would hardly migrate, dwarves also make little sense as most of them enjoy mining.
Humans, yes, it would be possible, lets see what happens.

That is great! so you still live near those Inuits correct? It didn't turn predominantly white, or predominantly Inuit, like everywhere else in the world? you are roughly 50% Inuit 50% white in your neighborhood? If not, why do you think that is?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Whew, people sure out in force slandering Tolkien today. No, black people were not exclusively depicted as evil. Sam saw one contingent, and it's unclear whether they were truly loyal followers of Sauron or if they were conscripted. The lands to the East were dominated by Sauron's tyrannical rule. The average human within Sauron's territory is a slave. We see slaves in Mordor, and when Sauron fell Aragorn gave Mordor to the slaves who were liberated from there. We also know that Sauron has secret police among his Orcs, presumably the rest of Sauron's lands operate like this (slavery + police state). Middle-Earth and Valinor are the last places in the world that have not been conquered. There are five wizards and two of them (the Blue Wizards mentioned earlier) were sent to the subjugated lands to the East to try to stir up rebellion. And the whole point of Illuvatar stripping away mankind's immortality and giving them death was so that they would not be subject to the tyranny of evil forever. Even if someone was born into the terrible reign of Morgoth or Sauron, they would eventually grow old/succumb to illness and die and be free.

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People who never read the books get the wrong impression from the Jackson trilogy, which doesn't show humanity under Sauron's rule. You don't see the slaves in Mordor or hear about the struggle for freedom in other lands. All you see are Orcs slaughtering humans, so people walk away thinking that Sauron is trying to wipe out everyone else. He is not. Morgoth and Sauron want to rule over humans, not wipe them out. It is a plot point that Sauron doesn't give a damn about the orcs. The Orcs are merely a means to an end, a means to conquer humanity. The orcs are expendable to Sauron, and the orc characters in the book resent that.

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When Sauron was captured by Numenor, this was a dream come true to him. He used clever words and eventually talked his way out of jail, and set himself up as a high priest in the king's court, and became the defacto ruler of the greatest kingdom of men... and then proceeded to start having the dissenters to his rule executed. Not to mention the human sacrifice. That is what Sauron is trying to achieve. It was again, only by literal divine intervention that he was stopped, with those few who had survived the police state escaping on boats while the rest of Numenor was drowned beneath the ocean, and Sauron died and reincarnated and had to start building his evil empire again over from scratch.

[Frontenac]

Agreed. I'm more worried that they mentioned the character that's a single mom and also seeing Galadriel walking around in armor. Those two things are not really themes of Tolkien's work and are very much identified with wokeness. But mostly I'm just so shocked by how screwed up Wheel of Time was that I'm having trouble being optimistic here.

And Elrond as "politically ambitious"... wtf does that even mean. Since when was there political intrigue in Tolkien? Elves largely ruled by inheritance. Elrond was a high ranking elf by right of birth, only behind Gil-Galad.

The only two characters we recognize - Elrond and Galadriel - look pretty different from expected based on canon. Galadriel definitely was a strong female character for Tolkien, but he never (with Eowyn as the exception) had women doing the fighting in books. He gave them powers, like Luthien singing, Melian weaving enchantments that kept out enemies, or Galadriel enchanting the forest to slow down time. But wearing armor and leading battles? Nah...

Yes, that's true about Galadriel, however we already have precedents in both LotR and The Hobbit movies. In Fellowship of the Ring, they replaced Glorfindel with Arwen who was wielding a sword. In The Hobbit, we got Tauriel. Therefore, seeing Galadriel, who was much more driven and power hungry in the First and Second Age, commanding an army is not that foreign to most viewers. Although I prefer Galadriel as a "sorceress" than a warrior...

As for Elrond, well, he was Gil-Galad's herald. Earning that position might have involved some work to convince he was the right Elf to hold that position. It's not because leadership is hereditary that all positions are. And founding Imladris can be seen a searching some power. They need to show some character development, how Elrond and Galadriel changed to be what they are in LotR from what they were at the beginning of the Second Age. As for political intrigue, there is more than you imagine in Tolkien. All that happened with Nargothrond, with Orodreth, Turin, and the two sons of Fëanor (Curufin and Caranthir?) was political intrigue. Aragorn wanting to become King and the way he introduces himself to Minas Tirith was political. Wormtongue discrediting Eomer and causing his banishment was political too.

I did not expect Elrond or Galadriel to look like Hugo Weaving or Cate Blanchett, who themselves did look much how I imagined Elrond and Galadriel when I read (and read again, and again, and again) the books. So I'm not that picky, even though Elrond should have black hair...

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Whew, people sure out in force slandering Tolkien today. No, black people were not exclusively depicted as evil. Sam saw one contingent, and it's unclear whether they were truly loyal followers of Sauron or if they were conscripted. The lands to the East were dominated by Sauron's tyrannical rule. The average human within Sauron's territory is a slave. We see slaves in Mordor, and when Sauron fell Aragorn gave Mordor to the slaves who were liberated from there. We also know that Sauron has secret police among his Orcs, presumably the rest of Sauron's lands operate like this (slavery + police state). Middle-Earth and Valinor are the last places in the world that have not been conquered. There are five wizards and two of them (the Blue Wizards mentioned earlier) were sent to the subjugated lands to the East to try to stir up rebellion. And the whole point of Illuvatar stripping away mankind's immortality and giving them death was so that they would not be subject to the tyranny of evil forever. Even if someone was born into the terrible reign of Morgoth or Sauron, they would eventually grow old/succumb to illness and die and be free.

I never said they were evil, I said they were servants of Evil. Or would you deny they were fighting for Sauron? Whether they did it willingly or not is not the point.

As for Men's mortality, Ilúvatar never stripped away their immortality. They were created mortals.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

As for Men's mortality, Ilúvatar never stripped away their immortality. They were created mortals.

Nope.

'Yet among my people, from Wise unto Wise out of the darkness, comes the voice saying that Men are not now as they were, nor as their true nature was in the beginning. And clearer still is this said by the Wise of the people of Marach, who have preserved in memory a name for Him that ye call Eru, though in my folk He was almost forgotten. So I learn from Adanel. They say plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness whom they do not name.

...

That is not the voice that the Wise hear out of the darkness and from beyond it. Nay, lord, the Wise among Men say: "We were not made for death, nor born ever to die. Death was imposed upon us."

...

[Finrod said,] 'Therefore I say to you, Andreth, what did ye do, ye Men, long ago in the dark? How did ye anger Eru? For otherwise all your tales are but dark dreams devised in a Dark Mind. Will you say what you know or have heard?'
'I will not,' said Andreth. 'We do not speak of this to those of other race. But indeed the Wise are uncertain and speak with contrary voices; but whatever happened long ago, we have fled from it; we have tried to forget, and so long have we tried that now we cannot remember any time when we were not as we are - save only legends of days when death came less swiftly and our span was still far longer, but already there was death.'

'Ye cannot remember?' said Finrod. 'Are there no tales of your days before death, though ye will not tell them to strangers?'

'Maybe,' said Andreth. 'If not among my folk, then among the folk of Adanel, perhaps.' She fell silent, and gazed at the fire.

...

[Andreth said] 'We may have been mortal when we first met the Elves far away, or maybe we were not: our lore does not say, or at least none that I have learned. But we already had our lore, and needed none from the Elves: we knew that in our beginning, we had been born never to die. And by that, my lord, we meant: born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end.'

[jonnysensible]

alot of you seem to have a whitewashed version of history. danes traded with persians, we had Henry Jetto knocking about.

arda is earths fictional history. we are what the 6th age? and this is set in the 2nd age? Of course its diverse you morons. getting big mad over black people, i bet you have fantastic views on race.

[Frontenac]

That is great, now tell me, with elves being immortal, how would their skin makeup change? If either of us moved to Africa, we would get tanned, but it would take many generations of evolutionary pressure before we got darker pigmentation. As I'm sure you are aware, elves did not exactly have generations of Children quickly. Hobits also make little sense, as they would hardly migrate, dwarves also make little sense as most of them enjoy mining.
Humans, yes, it would be possible, lets see what happens.

There's no evolution in Arda...

That is great! so you still live near those Inuits correct? It didn't turn predominantly white, or predominantly Inuit, like everywhere else in the world? you are roughly 50% Inuit 50% white in your neighborhood? If not, why do you think that is?

Inuits are up in the North. We were never close. Crops don't grow well in the tundra. But like most Québécois, I'm pretty sure I have a drop or two of Native blood in my veins. And yes there are Hurons where I live. As you surely know, people in the Americas are of rather mixed heritage...