Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Sialina]

There's no evolution in Arda...



Inuits are up in the North. We were never close. Crops don't grow well in the tundra. But like most Québécois, I'm pretty sure I have a drop or two of Native blood in my veins. And yes there are Hurons where I live. As you surely know, people in the Americas are of rather mixed heritage...

So you agree, it's impossible for fair skin to turn dark on Arda, got it, you agree with me that there should be no black elves or dwarves. Glad we agreed on that point, again, why not bring in the actual black people that fought Sauron? They could meet in a port, it would work beautifully without messing with existing lore.

Oh, so your ancestors didn't live next door, and even with America being made up of nearly all immigrants, there are a "couple" of natives in your area, because of simple logic, either people stay with their likes, and you have 2 people living apart, or people mix, and eventually they turn into a single people.

Why are you okay with tokenism? Why not just cancel the show and use the money to make something that actually has African roots? There are so many cool concepts in African culture that works really well in fantasy, I recommend Evan winters, Rage of Dragons, excellent book for fantasy lovers.

[Frontenac]

Nope.

That's only the version of Andreth. She says herself : "But indeed the Wise are uncertain and speak with contrary voices."

Men have forgotten about their past, and whatever they remember has been distorted. I prefer Finrod's version which he learned from the Valar (which is what is presented in The Silmarillion) of the "Gift of Eru" to Men, which Melkor deformed into an object of dread. That fear of death and the envy for elven immortality it brought is central to the Downfall of Númenor. Men had to die because they were created totally free from the fates of Arda. That is why the Ainur were unable to see past the Domination of Men in the first vision of Arda.

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So you agree, it's impossible for fair skin to turn dark on Arda, got it, you agree with me that there should be no black elves or dwarves.

Nope. I'm saying that some could have been created black right from the beginning. But yes, all the Eldar we met were white. As for the Dwarves, we have only met the Longbeards. We don't know much about the other clans.

Glad we agreed on that point, again, why not bring in the actual black people that fought Sauron? They could meet in a port, it would work beautifully without messing with existing lore.

They could still do that.

Oh, so your ancestors didn't live next door, and even with America being made up of nearly all immigrants, there are a "couple" of natives in your area, because of simple logic, either people stay with their likes, and you have 2 people living apart, or people mix, and eventually they turn into a single people.

And then there's the transition between the two states...

Why are you okay with tokenism? Why not just cancel the show and use the money to make something that actually has African roots? There are so many cool concepts in African culture that works really well in fantasy, I recommend Evan winters, Rage of Dragons, excellent book for fantasy lovers.

I am not okay with tokenism. But in case of a fantasy settings, I'm far more lenient. As long as the story and characters are good. Which we know nothing yet since we don't have any footage. In case of historic movies though, I don't like it. I prefer historic truth than PC. I mean, a movie on Peter the Great with a black boyar would be strange. In theater or opera? Who cares, it's all make belief anyway. If the singer can sing and play, who cares if Madama Butterfly is black? Who cares if Richard III is asian?

[Sialina]

That's only the version of Andreth. She says herself : "But indeed the Wise are uncertain and speak with contrary voices."

Men have forgotten about their past, and whatever they remember has been distorted. I prefer Finrod's version which he learned from the Valar (which is what is presented in The Silmarillion) of the "Gift of Eru" to Men, which Melkor deformed into an object of dread. That fear of death and the envy for elven immortality it brought is central to the Downfall of Númenor. Men had to die because they were created totally free from the fates of Arda. That is why the Ainur were unable to see past the Domination of Men in the first vision of Arda.

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Nope. I'm saying that some could have been created black right from the beginning. But yes, all the Eldar we met were white. As for the Dwarves, we have only met the Longbeards. We don't know much about the other clans.



They could still do that.



And then there's the transition between the two states...



I am not okay with tokenism. But in case of a fantasy settings, I'm far more lenient. As long as the story and characters are good. Which we know nothing yet since we don't have any footage. In case of historic movies though, I don't like it. I prefer historic truth than PC. I mean, a movie on Peter the Great with a black boyar would be strange. In theater or opera? Who cares, it's all make belief anyway. If the singer can sing and play, who cares if Madama Butterfly is black? Who cares if Richard III is asian?

I'll just reply to the last part because we've both made our opinions clear on the first few. In my opinion, fantasy requires more accuracy than historical dramas, or at least the same degree, because history is history, we know what Stalin looked like even if someone different plays him in a movie, but fantasy teeters on the very edge of being silly make believe, and as soon as something is seen to be false, it becomes impossible for me to take it as anything but ridiculous.
Imagine if Gandalf had a slightly worse actor, screaming "you shall not pass!" it would have turned into unintentional comedy straight away. Comic book movies went through this phase as well, at the start film makes tried to make more "generic" version of the super heroes with more "realistic" costumes, but it wasn't until Movies went all out with the spandex and all the other strange things that come with comic books that they became serious blockbusters instead of laughing stock direct to DVD things.

If you put on a play however, or a musical, things change, I agree, both because of the limitations of the stage, the area you are in and so on, it's perfectly fine with Richard III being Asian, or black or white and his father played by someone of a different race, no problems at all, this is a function of the medium and it works really well for a play.

But for my fantasy movies I prefer to keep the logic of the world as consistent as possible, because it's ever so fragile and will fall apart at a moments notice, and with billions of dollars put in, you expect middle earth to look like an actual place the races of middle earth live work and breath in.

I will quote Pen and Teller, even the quote is about magic tricks, for me it applies to fantasy.
"There is this theory in magic, that a trick has to be perfect, or not at all, because as soon as one little detail is seen to be phony, the whole thing feels fake and it all falls apart"
To me, watching a historical movie is like watch someone preform an amazing acrobatics routine, even if there was a mistake, you clearly see the skill on display, but fantasy is like watching a magic trick, as soon as one detail is exposed as fake, the whole thing falls apart instantly.

[Veggie50]

So you agree, it's impossible for fair skin to turn dark on Arda, got it, you agree with me that there should be no black elves or dwarves. Glad we agreed on that point, again, why not bring in the actual black people that fought Sauron? They could meet in a port, it would work beautifully without messing with existing lore.

Oh, so your ancestors didn't live next door, and even with America being made up of nearly all immigrants, there are a "couple" of natives in your area, because of simple logic, either people stay with their likes, and you have 2 people living apart, or people mix, and eventually they turn into a single people.

Why are you okay with tokenism? Why not just cancel the show and use the money to make something that actually has African roots? There are so many cool concepts in African culture that works really well in fantasy, I recommend Evan winters, Rage of Dragons, excellent book for fantasy lovers.

Ok, honest replies here.

The whole argument that there is no evolution, and thus no black people is bullcrap in this setting. Humans are the second children of illuvatar, and like the elves created in illuvatars image. Then why are there black people in other parts of tolkiens world?

Let’s be real here, and conclude that Tolkien wrote from his own perspective. Nothing wrong with that. In his day and age, very few people around him were of darker skin. So he wrote his characters to reflect that. Darker skin was something to be fearer, from distant lands.

Now we go to 2022. People with darker skin are all around us. It is no longer a foreign concept. Therefore including people/elves/dwarves with darker skin is just as much a reflection of society as it was in tolkiens age.

“But its not what tolkien wrote!!!”

True, it’s an adaptation, not a word by word translation. There are faaaaar bigger changes in any adaptation. If your suspension of disbelief can handle those, I’m sure if you try super-duper hard, you can accept theres a few characters with dark skin that logically couldnt (strange word in a fictional setting) have dark skin.

[Triceron]

It's European fantasy. You expect it to be about Europeans. Do you make Journey to the West without Chinese people? Does the Tale of Genji need Romans shoehorned in somewhere?

Journey to the West has been adapted (albeit loosely) many times in many forms.

Into the Badlands is a loose adaptation that has plenty of enthicities in it. The videogame Enslaved: Odyssey to the West also had a white protagonist. Then you have a bunch of Japanese anime adaptations that change up characters to females, or even something like Dragonball that literally turns Son Goku into an extraterrestrial.

So yes, adaptations can be whatever they choose to be.

[Specialka]

Ok, honest replies here.

The whole argument that there is no evolution, and thus no black people is bullcrap in this setting. Humans are the second children of illuvatar, and like the elves created in illuvatars image. Then why are there black people in other parts of tolkiens world?

Let’s be real here, and conclude that Tolkien wrote from his own perspective. Nothing wrong with that. In his day and age, very few people around him were of darker skin. So he wrote his characters to reflect that. Darker skin was something to be fearer, from distant lands.

Now we go to 2022. People with darker skin are all around us. It is no longer a foreign concept. Therefore including people/elves/dwarves with darker skin is just as much a reflection of society as it was in tolkiens age.

“But its not what tolkien wrote!!!”

True, it’s an adaptation, not a word by word translation. There are faaaaar bigger changes in any adaptation. If your suspension of disbelief can handle those, I’m sure if you try super-duper hard, you can accept theres a few characters with dark skin that logically couldnt (strange word in a fictional setting) have dark skin.

You got a point. Why is there no airship in that serie ? After all, we have lots around nowadays.

[Sialina]

Ok, honest replies here.

The whole argument that there is no evolution, and thus no black people is bullcrap in this setting. Humans are the second children of illuvatar, and like the elves created in illuvatars image. Then why are there black people in other parts of tolkiens world?

Let’s be real here, and conclude that Tolkien wrote from his own perspective. Nothing wrong with that. In his day and age, very few people around him were of darker skin. So he wrote his characters to reflect that. Darker skin was something to be fearer, from distant lands.

Now we go to 2022. People with darker skin are all around us. It is no longer a foreign concept. Therefore including people/elves/dwarves with darker skin is just as much a reflection of society as it was in tolkiens age.

“But its not what tolkien wrote!!!”

True, it’s an adaptation, not a word by word translation. There are faaaaar bigger changes in any adaptation. If your suspension of disbelief can handle those, I’m sure if you try super-duper hard, you can accept theres a few characters with dark skin that logically couldnt (strange word in a fictional setting) have dark skin.

Great points, we have nuclear weapons now, we live in a world with nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, if we just try super duper hard to suspend disbelief, why can't the elves just nuke Sauron? I'm sure a couple of hydrogen bombs here and there wouldn't break your immersion too much right? after all it reflects the conflicts of 2022 better than the conflicts of Tolkiens time.

How about using the outs for black people that are there? There are several ways you can have black GROUPS of people, and groups makes a whole lot more sense than individuals, how about the men that rebelled against Sauron? That is both epic and brave, and they were of darker skin color, there are more dark skinned groups of people in middle earth, they can show up at any port.

If I watch historical dramas, or lord of the rings, I want to see the correct setting, it makes no sense to have black elves.
If I watch a modern day drama, it would be odd if it was set in everyday US and there were no dark skinned people.
If I watch Sci fi, it makes no sense to not have different ethnicities, because travel is so easy that you would recruit from across the globe.

Also, your view looks extremely US centric, once you get out of the US and travel the world you will find that billions of people never saw a foreigner in their lives. When I walk around my home town of Lianping, and that is a small city of 300 000 people with my husband (He is not Chinese) people stare at him, because they've never seen a foreigner before, and this isn't even the countryside.

[Specialka]

Great points, we have nuclear weapons now, we live in a world with nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, if we just try super duper hard to suspend disbelief, why can't the elves just nuke Sauron? I'm sure a couple of hydrogen bombs here and there wouldn't break your immersion too much right? after all it reflects the conflicts of 2022 better than the conflicts of Tolkiens time.

How about using the outs for black people that are there? There are several ways you can have black GROUPS of people, and groups makes a whole lot more sense than individuals, how about the men that rebelled against Sauron? That is both epic and brave, and they were of darker skin color, there are more dark skinned groups of people in middle earth, they can show up at any port.

If I watch historical dramas, or lord of the rings, I want to see the correct setting, it makes no sense to have black elves.
If I watch a modern day drama, it would be odd if it was set in everyday US and there were no dark skinned people.
If I watch Sci fi, it makes no sense to not have different ethnicities, because travel is so easy that you would recruit from across the globe.

What if we took Kiriku and added some white people in it. I really wonder how all that would go.

[Wilian]

You got a point. Why is there no airship in that serie ? After all, we have lots around nowadays.

Going by earliel drafts on Numenor shown in the last release of Tolkien's compilation of notes, they would've had airships and massive black factorylike towers to signify how progress of society into industrialization usually is ruination of purity of the old.

He did abandon those notes in 30s or so.

[Veggie50]

Great points, we have nuclear weapons now, we live in a world with nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles, if we just try super duper hard to suspend disbelief, why can't the elves just nuke Sauron? I'm sure a couple of hydrogen bombs here and there wouldn't break your immersion too much right? after all it reflects the conflicts of 2022 better than the conflicts of Tolkiens time.

How about using the outs for black people that are there? There are several ways you can have black GROUPS of people, and groups makes a whole lot more sense than individuals, how about the men that rebelled against Sauron? That is both epic and brave, and they were of darker skin color, there are more dark skinned groups of people in middle earth, they can show up at any port.

If I watch historical dramas, or lord of the rings, I want to see the correct setting, it makes no sense to have black elves.
If I watch a modern day drama, it would be odd if it was set in everyday US and there were no dark skinned people.
If I watch Sci fi, it makes no sense to not have different ethnicities, because travel is so easy that you would recruit from across the globe.

Also, your view looks extremely US centric, once you get out of the US and travel the world you will find that billions of people never saw a foreigner in their lives. When I walk around my home town of Lianping, and that is a small city of 300 000 people with my husband (He is not Chinese) people stare at him, because they've never seen a foreigner before, and this isn't even the countryside.

Funny to resort to US bashing to invalidate my arguments… I’m European.

The rest of your argument is just a strawman. Nuclear weapons would change the key choices in the story, skin colour does not. Unless skin colour for you is a key indicator for personal identity, which is the very definition of racism.

[Toppy]

My only problem with this is they will likely just be token blacks. It'll just be weird if they just happen to be the only ones in their respective communities.

Also wondering why Asian actors seem to once again be getting ignored. Diversity always seems to miss them.

[Sialina]

Funny to resort to US bashing to invalidate my arguments… I’m European.

The rest of your argument is just a strawman. Nuclear weapons would change the key choices in the story, skin colour does not. Unless skin colour for you is a key indicator for personal identity, which is the very definition of racism.

Too bad for you I'm Asian, so race card and your racism shit won't work on me. And US bashing? where?

Of course it would change the story, because it would imply that there are Elven civilizations on parts of that map where there are none currently, not
to mention the issue of how that specific elf got there. What host did he leave Valinor with? How did he get to go south? Howcome he doesn't have the same
genetic makeup as the others in his group? Do they have a trade going with the Elves in the north? Why are elves so rare then if there are caravans crossing
the land the entire time? Because those would all affect key decisions in the story, same with dark skinned hobbits, hobbits have a southern base
all of a sudden? Even though they are slow to accept change and dislike adventure they somehow trade actively with the hobbits up north? So there
are hobbit trade routes and caravans?

What about the Dwarf princess? How did that happen? She has dark skin, must mean she lives on the surface, in the south, that would radically change what
we know about dwarves.

Elves also all awoke under starlight, one of the reasons they are drawn to starlight. When they awoke the sun didn't yet exist.

I think there being black elves dwarves and hobbits would change significant parts of the world and it's workings to make it make sense.

How about we actually make a movie or series out of some actual African fantasy instead? Or are you too racist to go watch that? you just
like the odd token sprinkled in there to think you did your good deed for the day?

[Nerovar]

Funny to resort to US bashing to invalidate my arguments… I’m European.

The rest of your argument is just a strawman. Nuclear weapons would change the key choices in the story, skin colour does not. Unless skin colour for you is a key indicator for personal identity, which is the very definition of racism.

Well, it sort of is a key indicator of where you come from in Lord of the Rings which has heavy implications on your allegiances etc.

[Toppy]

Funny to resort to US bashing to invalidate my arguments… I’m European.

The rest of your argument is just a strawman. Nuclear weapons would change the key choices in the story, skin colour does not. Unless skin colour for you is a key indicator for personal identity, which is the very definition of racism.

... skin color often IS a strong part of peoples personal identity. Its not racism to say that, if anything its racism to say its not. Like one of those people who say "I dont see race" which is more often than not code for "I'm tottally a racist"

[Hitei]

... skin color often IS a strong part of peoples personal identity. Its not racism to say that, if anything its racism to say its not. Like one of those people who say "I dont see race" which is more often than not code for "I'm tottally a racist"

That's a pretty subtle strawman, but still a strawman. What Veggie said was "skin color being a key indicator for personal identity"

"Part of who I am is that I'm Asian" =/= "You are Asian, so you must be X"

[Dhrizzle]

There's no evolution in Arda...

I'd say that's debatable. Certainly the species of Arda were not created through a process of natural selection but we know that Hobbits descended from Hobbit-like ancestors, and as they are related to men it seems likely they evolved from men. There also seems to be some difference between the Dwarves, especially the "petty dwarves" mentioned in the Silmarillion. Then of course there is the descent of the Numenorians as their spiritual corruption caused them to become less mighty. These changes might not be down to "natural" processes as we understand them but we do see changes in species/races over time.

The other thing to note is Tolkien's conceit that he didn't "create" Arda but translated myths from his invented language, and LotR is the stories he imagined Anglo-Saxons (or pre-Anglo-Saxons) may have come up with so looking for strictly logical and canonical reasoning is unnecessary.

[Toppy]

That's a pretty subtle strawman, but still a strawman. What Veggie said was "skin color being a key indicator for personal identity"

"Part of who I am is that I'm Asian" =/= "You are Asian, so you must be X"

The point kinda still stands. Just changing peoples ethnicity around like its a new shirt cheapenes things as a whole.

To me, if they do this they had better commit to it. Dont let it be token. They are exploring, till this point, unexplored parts of middle earth. Dont make it the Princess who just happens to be black when no one else is. Have her whole ass kingdom of dwarves be black. Give them an identity. Dont make it that "Oh it just happens that one in every hundred dwarf births are black".

[Dhrizzle]

Journey to the West has been adapted (albeit loosely) many times in many forms.

Into the Badlands is a loose adaptation that has plenty of enthicities in it. The videogame Enslaved: Odyssey to the West also had a white protagonist. Then you have a bunch of Japanese anime adaptations that change up characters to females, or even something like Dragonball that literally turns Son Goku into an extraterrestrial.

So yes, adaptations can be whatever they choose to be.

This isn't even a new thing, the Arthurian legends have been massively distorted and the current popular incarnation of a Christian king of the English is totally at odds with the oldest stories that have him resisting the Saxon invaders. Robin Hood's current incarnation as a noble ally of the king doesn't gel with the old stories of a yeoman who was antagonistic to the king (and which king it is has changed over time.) Going further back we see the Romans taking the Greek gods and Romanificiationising them to fit their cultural norms, and those pagan gods are just one of many adaptations of a proto-Indoeuropean pantheon that is only inferred by similarities between its descendents.

[Veggie50]

Too bad for you I'm Asian, so race card and your racism shit won't work on me. And US bashing? where?

Of course it would change the story, because it would imply that there are Elven civilizations on parts of that map where there are none currently, not
to mention the issue of how that specific elf got there. What host did he leave Valinor with? How did he get to go south? Howcome he doesn't have the same
genetic makeup as the others in his group? Do they have a trade going with the Elves in the north? Why are elves so rare then if there are caravans crossing
the land the entire time? Because those would all affect key decisions in the story, same with dark skinned hobbits, hobbits have a southern base
all of a sudden? Even though they are slow to accept change and dislike adventure they somehow trade actively with the hobbits up north? So there
are hobbit trade routes and caravans?

What about the Dwarf princess? How did that happen? She has dark skin, must mean she lives on the surface, in the south, that would radically change what
we know about dwarves.

Elves also all awoke under starlight, one of the reasons they are drawn to starlight. When they awoke the sun didn't yet exist.

I think there being black elves dwarves and hobbits would change significant parts of the world and it's workings to make it make sense.

How about we actually make a movie or series out of some actual African fantasy instead? Or are you too racist to go watch that? you just
like the odd token sprinkled in there to think you did your good deed for the day?

Asians can’t be racist? You heard it here first folks!

The “US bashing” occurred when you told me my argument was typically USA centric and would therefore change once I had travelled more. It’s a clear jab at US xenophobia, but your posts don’t exactly display any form of self reflection

Did you seriously argue “black dwarfs must mean they live on the surface, because it must have happened as a coping mechanism to sunlight”? By your logic, all elves must have been blind when the light of the trees ignited because their eyes never adapted to more than starlight. Are we completely forgetting this is a fantasy setting?

Yea it’s a bit different from the source material. It also means more people can recognise themselves in the characters. So my conclusion is; big fuckin deal. ^^

If its a dealbreaker to you, sorry to hear it. Concluding its “stupid” is just shortsighted though.

Edit: i forgot to reply to this part, but yes. Me not caring if there are some dark skinned characters in lotr clearly makes me a racist =P

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Well, it sort of is a key indicator of where you come from in Lord of the Rings which has heavy implications on your allegiances etc.

Yea I know. Im just not so opposed to changing the “people with dark skin are obviously bad” narrative a bit ^^

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... skin color often IS a strong part of peoples personal identity. Its not racism to say that, if anything its racism to say its not. Like one of those people who say "I dont see race" which is more often than not code for "I'm tottally a racist"

Skin colour being a strong part of personal identity is the result of a racist worldview. It does not matter wether this belief is held by black people, white people, or any other race.

Racism literally is the attribution of qualities due to race. Mind you I’m not mentioning discrimination here. Those two terms are often conflated but different in their meaning.

[Sialina]

Asians can’t be racist? You heard it here first folks!

The “US bashing” occurred when you told me my argument was typically USA centric and would therefore change once I had travelled more. It’s a clear jab at US xenophobia, but your posts don’t exactly display any form of self reflection

Did you seriously argue “black dwarfs must mean they live on the surface, because it must have happened as a coping mechanism to sunlight”? By your logic, all elves must have been blind when the light of the trees ignited because their eyes never adapted to more than starlight. Are we completely forgetting this is a fantasy setting?

Yea it’s a bit different from the source material. It also means more people can recognise themselves in the characters. So my conclusion is; big fuckin deal. ^^

If its a dealbreaker to you, sorry to hear it. Concluding its “stupid” is just shortsighted though.

Edit: i forgot to reply to this part, but yes. Me not caring if there are some dark skinned characters in lotr clearly makes me a racist =P

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Yea I know. Im just not so opposed to changing the “people with dark skin are obviously bad” narrative a bit ^^

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Skin colour being a strong part of personal identity is the result of a racist worldview. It does not matter wether this belief is held by black people, white people, or any other race.

Racism literally is the attribution of qualities due to race. Mind you I’m not mentioning discrimination here. Those two terms are often conflated but different in their meaning.

What a ridiculous post, you are aware that in the setting the elves are created by Illuvatar, this settings god, and that the entire history of the world was determined before middle earth was even created, obviously Illuvatar knew there would be light eventually and would have designed the eyes so they would work in both conditions. All Elves share their origins with the first 144 that awoke under the stars, and they all long to return west. These are key story elements.

The dwarves were formed deep under a mountain by Aule, later given live by Illuvatar because only he could grant the flame of life. Dwarves were all born under ground and they live under ground, but you are saying one getting dark skin would not imply anything at all?

Yes it's fantasy, but it has to make logical sense like everything else. Because once one part is seen to be fake, everything feels fake.

Also, of course race affects you, it affects how people react to you, that can be both in a positive and a negative way. If you travel to Sri Lanka as a Chinese for instance, people will often comment on how fair your skin is, in China, people are amazed by blue eyes, it doesn't have to be something negative, but if you look different from everyone else, it will affect you.
The same goes for if you are tall or short, big or small, and many other immutable characteristics, they all affect how people look at you.
That in turn will affect you, there is nothing racist about being amazed or intrigued by someone different from yourself, and when you go back
to when travel was actually difficult, of course people would be amazed if they saw a person of a different skin color if it wasn't along
some trade route where it was more common.
Or are you telling me, that if you saw a real life night elf for the first time tomorrow, you'd just go about your day, you wouldn't want to have
an extra look, and the elf in question wouldn't be affected by everyone looking? Remember, they don't have the internet, good education or
access to public libraries, to them a person with dark skin might be nearly as alien as a night elf would be to you